around 7pm this evening coming home from work There was a beggar on the southbound overground. Asian mid 20’s wearing clean designer looking olive green camo style clothing.
He announced to my carriage “can I have some change I’m starving” when no one offered any he then became quite ‘mouthy’ “Oh none of you have change? no one can spare change can they?”
Then…Alarmingly he turned to a lone man sat near the doors, looked about to punch him by grabbing him and shouted in his face “GIVE ME YOUR F***ING CHANGE!” at which point a lady and a man both intervened telling him to back off…this happened twixt surrey quays and NewXGate. I believe he got off at New X Gate.
I was very shaken by how agressive he was…virtually mugging some helpless guy in daylight on a relatively busy train.
Imagine if it had been late and an empty train.
I reported what had happened to a member of staff at Forest Hill who said “yeah, Asian guy wearing army gear? we know about him he usually gets off New X Gate”
so… whats being done about him?
Blank stares…
I have to come home late at night from work on these trains…I’m actually scared.
I pay £1500 a year to travel to and from work and it appears there is zero security or protection from aggressive violent situations.
Its awful.
I just wanted to flag this as a lone female traveller its shaken me greatly.
Aggressive and Violent beggar on Overground today
I don’t work on the railways and I’m not excusing staff indifference to your complaint but when you think about it policing transient begging on London’s overground system must be next to impossible.
That sounds horrendous. Sorry you had to go through that, and I understand your concern for future travel when the train is less busy.
I’d propose:
- the Overground ought to operate facial recognition via CCTV to identify beggars and immediately alert the driver, BTP and station staff.
- regular announcements go out from drivers: “it is illegal to beg on trains. Please do NOT hand money to beggars”
- trains should be be held at stations until the beggars have got off (the public will be less inclined to sponsor begging if it’s holding up everyone’s commute).
- if people around you on the train hand over cash, have a quiet word with them.
Related convo: Aggressive Beggar / 'Travelling Poet' on Overground
They do sometimes make announcements on the trains re; beggars but it doesn’t act as a deterrent (I know Im a daily commuter).
The thing that surprised me was the aggressive beggar was known to staff and the man I spoke to actually described him to me but no move was made to radio other stations or BTP.
Also they seemed to know where he gets on and off (funnily enough New X Gate seems to be the chosen station for beggars to get on and off trains…I’ve noticed this) and be aware of his aggressive intimidating modus operendi.
This man was so aggressive and threatening that he really felt like a ticking time bomb.
We have CCTV on trains and at stations if these people are known to staff can’t they alert BTP?
Thank you for your sympathy-I am genuinely shaken by this because I do shift work and often travel at 10.30 and later at night.
whats to stop someone pulling a knife?
In fact a staff member said to me …and I quote " nothing will be done until something bad happens" so If someone gets stabbed I guess then things will change this is just wrong in a supposedly 1st world country.
I don’t expect the station staff to confront these people it actually isn’t their responsibility and I doubt they get paid enough to put their safety in jepoardy.
however we need some form of policing on the trains… perhaps undercover plain clothes?
You can text the British Transport Police on 61 016 if you’re concerned for your safety at any time.
I considered that but didn’t know number…I also thought of videoing him to send to police and btp but didn’t want him to turn on me
thanks for number its in my phone now
I am always puzzled how people who claim to have no money can travel on the trains. It sounds as if they have a method of getting out of New Cross Gate station.
half the time the gates are left open I suspect or they jump the gates?
or maybe get on at unmanned stations.
To me this highlights the need for staff at ALL stations from start to close and guards on trains.
As I mentioned previously I pay £1500 PA for my oyster-
not cheap but all we hear of is cuts of staffing levels which to my mind will just make the overground and suburban train services and stations a crime hotspot.
Zone 1 stations are always well manned but us poor sods who can’t afford to live centrally are the fools who pay through the nose for putting our safety at risk travelling to and from work.
I think the answer lies with the passengers. If no-one gives any money they will stop asking. Unfortunately, they must be getting money from some passengers.
We will probably need to raise the problem with higher authorities.
It happens on buses too.
yes
How absolutely appalling. If the staff know about him, then surely the transport police do as well? Why oh why are they not doing anything?
Can’t do much. Begging probably doesn’t carry jail time. And you can’t stop people jumping the barriers.
Just gotta hope he assaults the wrong person and gets put to sleep by a good standing member of the public. But knowing how soft the police are in the UK they will probably go after the person protecting themselves.
I’ve also complained to London Overground, but to no visible effect. These people undoubtedly have all sorts of personal difficulties but inflicting them on the captive audience that is a train of passengers and getting a few quid here and there is no answer. Overground is popular simply because the carriages are so easy to walk through! Plain clothes BTP to get them served with a banning order. Prison for breach ironically will provide want many need - a roof over their heads, a bed to sleep on, a reliable source of food, somewhere to wash themselves and their attire - and all at our, the taxpayers, expense!
People regularly tailgate others through the barriers at Forest Hill, but it also happens frequently at London Bridge where there is a police presence. It’s annoying that staff do nothing, but in balance, it really isn’t their jobs and I would suspect that they are forbidden from intervening as a condition of their employment.
I expect that there is, however, a strong correlation between violence on the transport network and people who steal travel on it. National Rail, the train operators and the unions are not concerned with your safety; only the transport police are so please keep their number. Also, I expect that the transport police resources are distributed according to their perceived need so the more we report, the greater the likelihood that there will be someone near to do something about it.
It’s a challenge for the BTP, it’s a mixture of lack of officers /resources and some officers indiffer ent attitude due to the reasons mentioned previously, mean that policing it is challenging. It doesn’t help that people give them money. In regards to staff, as I understand it, they aren’t directly employed by tfl but the firm that runs the service. The underground staff can’t physically challenge them so have an app they use to report anti-social behaviour. These scum know that staff can’t touch them at stations or trains either. About the cost of your oyster for the year - the train firms take a chunk of that and they and the govt won’t let tfl freeze the cost of travel cards 
. Its worth using that text number too - if its reported directly to the BTP, they’ll use the report data to identify a pattern. As for facial recognition, that’s for the police rather than London Overground - GDPR means they couldn’t use it.
Does it cost to text British Transport Police?
I have no idea.
I agree with everything except this as there is a clear case for an exception under Art. 9(2)(g) GDPR. Please don’t take the GDPR moans on this forum as a legal guide to actual facts.
His point was that the GDPR would allow the police to using the facial recognition results, but prevent London Overground using them. I think he’s correct.
Since the GDPR is poorly defined (IMO) I doubt any civil servant would want to risk potentially breaching it. So I suspect the regulation would prevent facial recognition being used in practice.
It’s the collection and retention rather than the use of biometric information that engages the GDPR. The use should be considered as to whether or not there is a legitimate interest to support the collection and retention. There is not a binary answer to the legality of retaining the biometric data unless you know the use.
In reality (and contrary to what I said earlier), I don’t think that it would be legal to retain the information. This is because Souther Rail, for example, would do nothing with it, thus there is no legitimate interest for them to collect and retain the information. If the Transport Police (TP) had a use for the information that was in the public interest then a rail company would have a reason to collect the data and retain the data until a point when it has been transfered to the TP. However, in reality, I doubt that the TP would use the data (they are too busy dealing with actual crimes to have time to proactively address potential crimes), which is why I say that I don’t think that it would be legal to collect and retain the information. It would be legal to collect and retain the biometric information until a legitimate interest has been fulfilled, but in reality there is no legitimate interest. N.B. stockpiling the data in case it is useful in the future is not justifiable either.
There was a similar discussion last year… see here
I have to say, at the suggestion of local police on the forum I contacted BTP after the incident and was really impressed by the quick response I received. They checked in a couple of times with progress and said they knew who that individual was (also offered me victim support, which I declined), I don’t know if it was a coincidence but I haven’t seen the travelling poet since and I’m commuting to Shoreditch every day again.
More info on reporting to BTP
http://www.btp.police.uk/61016_text_service1.aspx
Maybe that’s the answer (let’s hope so)
Quite possibly not enough people are reporting to BTP, or not reporting the same man/woman enough.
BTP have started a small but dedicated tasking team dedicated to this very issue specifically on the overground. It hasn’t been operating long, but has already yielded results and several arrests. As you can imagine, this is a widespread problem, and one that often doesn’t attract deterrent penalties, so the team has its work cut out! Please report sightings discreetly by text on 61016.
A year later this character is still at it. A month or so back we saw him on the way to Kentish Town West and my lovely, generous boyfriend handed over a couple of quid. What did we get for that? Pursued along the street by the bloke, aggressively asking for more money. Saw him today again on line from Peckham to Dalston J. Same old tripe, same refusal to go away if you say no.
Genuinely homeless people can register their address at a job centre and collect £73 a week benefit. Most hostels do not charge or at the most it’s a few quid a night. (Don’t believe it? Look it up on the hostel web pages or Crisis website- I donate to them). But, oh yeah. You can’t drink or have drugs. Leaves quite a bit of spending money though, so all this chat about just trying to get enough money for a hostel etc. is just guilt-tripping the workers into doling out some alcohol / drug money. It’s ok to say no, it’s ok to ignore, no need to feel guilty about not giving money for drugs to addicts.
I always wonder how they pay for their travel. And some days you can have two or even three people in quick succession.
They tend to try to follow people through barriers at busy times, have had it happen several times to me. There are some unstaffed stations that have open entrances and exits, or larger stations with multiple exits (like Moorgate) where there are no barriers.
at Forest Hill Station the barriers are open much of the time
Thanks.
I saw someone push through a barrier one day.
I find they often get off (and on) at New X gate.
Re; the OP I have encountered the beggar you are referring to.
He’s very aggressive and sadly tends to pick on lone females on the train-I’ve had him stand in front of me being really rude and aggressive about me not giving him money.
sadly no one told him to stop and I was a bit afraid to tell him to leave me alone in case he followed me off the train as it was 11pm.
Its very upsetting being made to feel bad about not giving them my money.
I do give to charity but via collection boxes and donations.
I don’t believe in giving to their addictions
I’ve seen this guy on the overground a number of times, at 7am, midnight, weekdays and weekends. Always noticed his perfectly clean clothes and virtually new trainers and thought he was a complete clown (judge me if you so wish). I have not witnessed him being directly aggressive, but will be sure to be extra vigilant if I see him again, the fact that he’s been seen targeting and pressuring women on their own is appalling.
Not really. All trains used to have guards.
Has anyone thought to write to our London Mayor about this problem?
twitter.com/SadiqKhan
or google “contact Sadiq Khan”
I feel for you Maxrocks, as a single woman, I can remember being scared travelling home late 30 years ago… but then it was usually drunken men… not homeless or beggars. But all still scary. not nice at all.
Thank-you 
I Have actually recently spoken to my manager at work to ask to opt out out doing the late shifts whenever staffing levels allow because I no longer feel comfortable with being on the overground alone after 10.30pm.
I’ve lived here 8 years but in the past year the aggressive begging has become a real issue which I think ties in with the winding down of staffing levels in the evening at the overground stations.
Maxrocks - please know it is highly unlikely that anything horrid will happen to you, but I completely understand the fear that something might - I am not dismissing your own fears. - You are aware of the possibilities & that is a huge step towards your personal safety… If it would make you feel happier, you could get some sort of personal audible alarm. I know none of us should have to do that, BUT if it gives you some personal re-assurance, you may want to look into that…
& I do think you should still write to Sadiq Khan.
The aggressive begging ties into all sorts of other political stuff, which I will not even start to discuss….
Keep safe. xx
Writing to the Mayor is good in the bigger picture, but it also sounds like there is a problem with this particular beggar too.
It’s worth noting that British Transport Police can be SMS’d on 61016 and have jurisdiction on National Rail, Overground, Underground and DLR services.
That really is sad - public transport shouldn’t be like that 
If you tell British Transport Police the date and time of the incident, they should be able to identify the person and then take some sort of appropriate action.
There are staff, but they stay out of sight and leave the gates open
There’s a problem with station staff who say “oh yeah, we know about him …” and nothing is done
What do you want station staff to do exactly? Get physical with him? Or perhaps write him a polite letter asking him to stop.
I agree text the transport police, something really needs to be done about him. 
I’d like them to have a presence on the station rather than leaving the barriers open and the station unattended. I’d like them to liaise with transport police. I’d like them to take names and addresses of passengers who are witnesses to anti-social behaviour, or refer the passengers to an area manager. I’d like them TO TAKE SOME INTEREST in their work. I’d also like them to water the plants on the station platforms, rather than have Forest Hill Society volunteers having to do it (surely they can give up five minutes mobile phone time for that?).
I change trains ar Shadwell and this is where a lot of the aggressive beggars on the Overground get on, you see them hanging outside the station waiting to tailgate people.
I have also had to report people for smoking (not always just cigarettes) on the platform and aggressive behaviour. The “street poet” guy was hasseling people on the platform there a few days ago.
Agree that Shadwell is the root of the problem. I can understand staff not wanting to confront these people but to do nothing combined with passenger safety officers also literally doing nothing just encourages the issue. Targeted BTP presence and patrols would really help, it’s not rocket science.
With regard to the poet, if I see him now, I get off and wait for another train; he’s going to seriously hurt someone at some point. I’ve reported it on multiple occasion but absolutely nothing happens!
One obvious action would be for British Transport Police to attend Shadwell and prevent them from tailgating.
I told the poet guy to go away and leave me alone earlier this week. He did but not before he called me horrible and selfish.
When a (must have been mentally ill) man aggressively threatened me (a tiny woman) for no reason whilst I was minding my own business on my commute to work I reported him to the transport police. When I discovered he was a regular on my commute journey and witnessed him doing it the next week to another unsuspecting commuter the transport police were waiting for him to get off at his regular stop the next day. I must say they did a superb job and would recommend anyone who is harassed during their journey to report it to them as they take it seriously. It was only a few months ago that some nutcase stabbed a Muslim man on the overground and it made headlines. There are a lot of dangerous people on our journeys, let’s report these people before they do actual harm!
People should consider adding British Transport Police to their list of contacts on their phones. Makes it easier to find the number if you need it.
I’ve read somewhere (but I don’t know for sure) that the BTP text number makes it possible for people to raise the alarm without being heard. Text exact location/train/station details and apparently they do respond.
I’ve seen them have a go at someone tailgating before. The person just turned around and aggressively yelled “**** you” at this poor woman who probably doesn’t get paid enough to deal with that kind of threat / abuse.
Even if they liase with BTP, what will that achieve? It’s not a jailable offence. They will ignore any fines. And they will be back again a week later. For the scarce resources the police have, they can’t just stand at a ticket barrier all day at one station. And to what…tell the person off?
You could aggressively go after them and prosecute them. Jail them for unpaid fines. But that will never happen in the UK.
I have the transport police no. on my phone, in case of the above. Luckily enough I am not travelling on the overground everyday at the times you are saying, but if enough people reported the same person surely it could lead to prison.
I’ve now put this number on my phone
Something should be done now not later or until it’s really to late.
Seriously… how many more warnings needed?
I like many have had enough of hearing about someone getting hurt etc for no reason.
No one should feel afraid to be free to enjoy life how they please.
Thanks for raising this concern it sure is a high importance and I to hope something does get done to make it secure and safer for all types of travellers.
The crazy thing about it is that I was regularly in New York for work in the 80’s and 90’s when NYC was a dangerous city (not sanitised like it is now…I mean you wouldn’t dream of going into Alphabet City or large swathes of the lower East side or Brooklyn) HOWEVER as a lone woman I felt safer travelling the subways there then than I do the overground now-because there were always guardian angels on each train and a lot of NYPD around the subway entrances and exits.
now I feel we rely too heavily on cctv which is all well and good after the event at identifying the perpetrators of these crimes but doesn’t seem to act as a deterrent to people committing or attempting to commit crimes or nuisance on our overground network and on our stations.
They kept announcing today not to give to people, but to donate to the Whitechapel Trust.
Yes I heard the announcement AGAIN about donating to the Whitechapel mission, like I have done every time I’ve gone on the overground for about the last year! Which is all good, but not so when as has been said before you are confronted with an aggressive person in your face! Perhaps some people from the above mission could come onto the trains & help get these people off the trains! 
Sadly, for as long as there are people willing to hand over money, there will be an incentive for people to be begging on the trains. I think the donation / Whitechapel Mission signs and announcements are a good way to start to change this.
London Overground have increased the staffing at Shadwell - there are more staff in the ticket office and a member of staff on each platform. That seems to have had the effect of deterring beggars from entering the station and getting on trains.
I got the train from LB to Catford Bridge this weekend when the overground was down. 3 beggars came up to me separately, grabbed my arm and asked for money. Despite my having headphones on and looking out of the window. Really intimidating.
I work for a homeless charity and can confirm that the only costs people are asked to make directly are a small service charge for utilities which we always wait for after someone has made a benefit claim, which we also support them with.
I see some people begging on the overground who are clearly unwell and usually very grateful for an apple or bottle of water and would never never discourage people from being kind to someone who needs it if you have a spare banana or whatever. If you’d like to make a bigger change then please do donate to London homelessness charities like the Deptford 999 club.
This guy though - my husband gave him a pound last weekend when we were travelling up to Highbury & Islington on a Saturday on a packed train mid morning. I’d advised not to give as I support the Thames Reach campaign about giving going to hard drugs which is based on solid research (if I see a stationary beggar 9/10 times I will ask them what food or drink they want and buy it for them). Food poverty is a very real issue. So is class A drug abuse and I don’t want to fuel it.
That guy though saw that unusually my husband had some folding cash in his wallet, aggressively challenged him to give more and spat at him when he said no. BTP have actually been great - but the reason the guy feels able to challenge so aggressively is because a lot of the time people give in rather than have a confrontation, which I can understand. Everyone needs to be familiar with reporting stuff to the BTP - not least for this own guys good as someone is going to lamp him one day.
I have heard the same speech from the same “homeless people” several times.
I have observed that some interaction with them (other than giving large amounts of money) provokes an aggressive and threatening reaction. One person said that he did not have any cash as he was not going to be paid until the end of the week and still received a threatening reply.
On the Whitechapel mission announcements, there’s a tramp who now has a whole speech about how it is only a day centre and that giving to them will not give him somewhere to sleep tonight, encouraging us all to verify this ourselves on the website. He sounded quite convincing 
Whitechapel Mission isn’t a night shelter it is a charity that offers day services and support to the homeless- including helping them find a nightshelter or hostel, apply for benefits etc…
Thanks - helpful stuff
They are a good charity and definitely worth supporting!
The other night about 10.30 I was coming home from Canonbury when a scruffy young couple with a dog got on at Dalston. The lad sat down right at the back with the dog whilst the girl went off up the train begging; when she returned he asked her how much she got and when she showed him he snatched the money, stuffed it in his pocket and started abusing her along the lines of "is that all you managed to get out of the tight b…ds. Nice eh!
Same guy that threatened a guy I work with at 10.30 pm on our line,
when he said he didn’t have money the guy was extremely threatening to him shouting in his face whilst grabbing his jacket "give me some f*****g money’
He’s a real menace