Face Coverings on Public Transport

I travelled on buses from Honor Oak to Catford and back today, and this evening trains from Honor Oak to Sydenham and back. From this admittedly small sample I would say 60% face covering, 40% not. There are definitely people getting on buses and trains without covering. I am not going to get a fit of the vapours on this, but if that proportion is common then mandatory use seems to be a busted flush and a bit of a PR exercise What do others see?

I see that the Govt is now wanting to get people back to work. I understand and get this - pubs and restaurants in the centre of London and Canary Wharf have little chance of surviving without people going into Central London.

However, trying to get people to travel in when for the last few months we’ve been told its very unsafe to use public transport is a bit of a challenge! Not really sure how that circle can be squared.

Personally, I am happy to use local facilities like Babur and Chandos (I accept there is some increased risk but the alternative is staying indoors ad infinitum). But I would be a liar if I said I was itching to get into a crowded Overground or Jubilee for Canary Wharf.

I’ve been getting the tube through central London at rush hour and the tubes aren’t packed. I see the majority of people wearing face masks but about 50% of those either have it round their chin or under their nose!!

I was stood with a police officer the other week (as I was involved in an incident) and a member of public came up to the police officer and accosted him for the lack of mask wearing commuters. The officer advised that TfL staff have no legal powers to enforce the masks so aren’t really doing anything to enforce it. I later asked the police officer if he had penalised many commuters and he said they had only done a handful of people.

I’m not sure how people can feel morally fine with themselves for not wearing a mask if they don’t have valid health reasons not to.

From what I’ve seen it’s mostly young construction men not wearing masks every morning. Usually travelling in groups and chatting, spreading their germs everywhere without a single concern for anyone else.

I find it morally weird that people want to force others to wear face coverings. And then waste police resources enforcing it.

Do you find our drink driving laws morally weird?

Because some people just don’t get it. Wearing a mask is not hard.

That’s not my point. There’s a difference between encouraging, educating and asking VS forcing, fining and trying to involve the police.

But it’s clear the police aren’t bothered anyway.

The government seemed to make the lockdown feel like ones social duty, they could probably do with attempting something similar here.

Wear a mask > protect the economy > save jobs ??

It’s a temporary and minor inconvenience which will probably save lives.

I don’t understand why people are making a fuss about the requirement to wear masks.

Definitely needs to be enforced, if we’re to have any hope of people complying. Recent mass gatherings (eg protests) have shown that some people just don’t take Covid-19 seriously, and are willing to endanger other people’s lives.

Alternatively, perhaps the protests have shown that they also take other issues seriously.

I got back from Portugal last week (now isolating even though no one took our Passenger Contact form at Luton) and almost everyone is wearing masks virtually all of the time. Not on the street but in taxis, airport, underground, shops etc. No issues but shopkeepers were very firm about it if we forgot. Polite but firm and after a day or two it becomes ingrained.
I really do not understand the moral argument against compulsion especially as people have shown they wont wear them unless forced to. We are compelled by law to do all sorts of things like wearing clothes in public, putting on seat belts in cars, not taking drugs and thousands of other things. I don’t see why wearing a mask should be that different.

The best argument I’ve seen for wearing masks was the Blitz analogy where people were told to black out their windows at night. Everyone did it, because if one person decided not to they would put everyone else at risk.

I should also say looking at people and assuming they don’t have a valid medical condition or a valid exemption as per the rules is very discriminatory.

It’s like when people at work admonish others for not taking the stairs not realising they have a disability or injury.

Not all medical conditions are visible. Especially those to do with respiratory illness, mental health etc.

Am I missing something here… who’s assuming anything?

I’d have thought anyone with a respiratory disease would be the first person to wear a mask. If it’s literally that they can’t breathe through one, then surely one of those face shield things is going to be effective.

I agree it should be enforced, but during the time of the protests it wasn’t law yet, so not required: even so there are plenty of pictures of protesters from both sides both wearing and not wearing masks.

I’m in Canada. I’m advised that almost everyone is wearing masks when in shops and the like with many wearing them outside as well.

I say advised as I’m halfway through a mandatory two week quarantine. I had to register a quarantine plan on arrival. And have been checked up on twice already to ensure I’m sticking to it. I know of someone who was fined $1000 for breaking it.

It as easy as wearing underwear, which most of us do all the time. I really don’t understand the issue??

We are off to Spain in August. We will have to wear masks. I did 19 hours to South Africa in Feb/Mar this year wearing a mask. It wasn’t an issue. When I lived in Japan we wore them when we had a cold, all Japanese do. It wasn’t an issue.

Some people really need to grow up.

I have only been going out to the shops the last couple of weeks & on buses, trains, (not the tube) as I have been shielding. I wear a mask on transport & in shops as I feel it gives me protection.
I think people that just refuse to wear them are just plain selfish, as they obviously don’t think anything is going to happen to them.

How many of you have had one of those blue disposable masks fail on you? On the way to work I went to put my mask on a Sydenham station and both strings broke. That’s the second time that’s happened now.

Some of them are rubbish. I bought decent FFP3 masks from Toolstation. Much better fit and far more comfortable. And you can’t wear them on your chin!

We’ve been getting the blue and yours from Office Monster. I quite like the blue for comfort and ability to speak.

FFFP3 rated facemasks only work if the person wearing them has had a face fit test. For it to work you have to be completely clean shaven. The growth of stubble renders them useless in the eyes of the HSE.

We also have the blue ones but the elastic breaks at the mask which is a pain. I ended up putting wood glue on the joints which solved it.

These have a rubber seal around the mask which conforms to my face. I make sure my wife shaves daily😁

I’m wondering if that was me that complained to the police officer about non-wearing of masks I did just that and was told the same thing.
BTP and TFL staff have no powers to enforce the “mandatory” wearing of masks.
Its a joke and makes me very angry the amount of people that either dont bother or get on the train and drop the mask to their chin or leave their nose uncovered.
I have taken to telling them to wear their mask properly, usually get dirty looks for suggesting as much and never get any back up from the other mask wearing commuters.
The other day on a London bridge train there was a woman talking really loudly in my carriage on her mobile phone I sat as far as I could away from her and then two stops later when she was still shouting and cackling into her phone I saw red-marched up the carriage and asked her to put on a mask-her response? “I had Covid in January” and waved me away…As if that made it all ok?
My argument is-other commuters dont know my story or the other people in the carriages stories.
they dont know if we have underlying health conditions, or live with an elderly or vulnerable person-Those that commute do it NOT through choice but because we have to go to work to pay our rent and survive and keep our jobs.
We cant all work from home.
The selfishness of some and the uselessness of this government in ensuring that rules are enforced (by recruiting special enforcement officers perhaps?) will cost lives.
I feel like the government doesn’t really give a toss sending us off like cannon fodder back to work but without actually setting aside a budget for extra enforcement officers.
Now masks are going to be “mandatory” in shops dont make me laugh…if people cant adhere to social distancing and mask wearing on underground trains they’re not going to wear masks in shops.
I understand that the Government is saying this will be enforced by police not the responsibility of shop staff.
We dont have enough police to stop street crime, stabbings and murders…what parallel universe do Boris and co live in???
Certainly not the london I was born in and live in today-they need to get a grip and live in the real world

I see on the news tonight TFL staff with the police going onto buses and checking passengers for Face coverings, One guy as he got off through the exit doors was approached by the policeman and asked why he wasn’t wearing a mask and issued with £100 fine for hes troubles.
Good job too, Grow up and stop being selfish.

16 posts were split to a new topic: This is going nowhere

I’m in France, about a third of people in rural Normandy currently wearing masks in enclosed public spaces like supermarkets, but Macron has announced it will be shortly be mandatory in all shops as with England. Local markets have been stretched out over bigger areas to provide more space for everyone. Restaurant, cafe, bar adaptions much as in Forest Hill.
No apparent extra checks or requirements entering the country.

One of my friends has had to commute in during the duration of lockdown. He was always complaining about people not social distancing on the tube, the fact the trains were reduced meaning he had to change tubes, crowded platforms and trains as a result - it sounded awful.

In Spain I seem to remember when they introduced the wearing of masks on public transport police were at many stations, no masks no getting on. I think a similar periodic blitz here would help.

At then end of the day though, whilst I agree with everything you say, people have to take some responsibility - this can’t be all government \ police, people need to take some ownership themselves. This lockdown has shown the best of people - so many amazing charitable acts, sacrifices, people putting themselves at risk but unfortuantely a not insignificant minority who for a variety of reasons have not followed the core guidance.

It’s difficult now as to me it feels like many no longer have trust in the messages coming out, so people are making their own judgements for many things, though there can be no excuse for the simply things like wearning masks in enclosed spaces, regular handwashing and social distancing.

I will admit I am struggling with the last one - one of my parents and my sister-in-law are in the highest risk category, and other parents are in the 70+ year old category. If there is no vaccine or effective treatment for 12 months or more do I not get to hug them for that time, stay over, hold my 6 month old nephew etc. We’ve not seen my brother since lockdown started, and my parents once. But I am getting offtrack and there are far worse scenarios for many others of course.

IMO the problem is down to the way the media and social media is reporting the policies.

Every time policy evolves (and obviously it needs to constantly evolve as the situation changes) this is described as a “u-turn” or “backtracking” or “confusing”

Yet I think the policies have actually been quite well communicated and a decent amount of notice has been given. If only the media could help by effectively conveying those messages.

I wish the media would dedicate more time to the actual unadulterated messaging coming from ministers and scientific advisors. I don’t want cherry-picked sound bites followed by a long monologue from Robert Peston or Kay Burley giving their personal opinion on them.

The media has a vested interest in chaos, narrative, partisan politics and spin. I wish they could be more public-spirited at a time of international crisis like this.

For writing this post, I’m sure I’ll be accused of defending the government, and I’ll be told the media are vital “scrutinisers.”

But how will the UK government ever succeed in public crisis management if the very culture of our nation is constantly pitted against them?

Some of the histrionic headlines about this mask policy have been ridiculous. Anyone would think we’re being asked to wear gags.

What do forumites think about the requirement to wear masks in shops from the 24th July?

I partly agree. During the daily briefings, after the first few weeks some things were not changing much day to day and so the media needed a story (as always) and so some reporting was not brilliant.

However trust in what is being said is low with lots of people I know (and I include myself in that), some advice is deliberately vague and some things do not appear to be well thoughtout. Making changes to an evolving situation I agree is not necessarily backtracking.

I would hate to be a minister right now - certainly the Health or Chancellor - the pressure must be immense and I accept people will make mistakes in these circumstances, especially when you have to make decisions quickly, sometimes without full date or prior history to guide you, however that does not mean they are beyond reproach either. I have lots I would like to say but we will go totally off course so I will stop, but whether you think it’s right or wrong, I do believe from my small circle of friends that many people have lost faith to varying degrees.

I have mild claustrophobia, so find wearing a mask really horrible.
However, I DO wear one on public transport and will wear one to the supermarket from next Friday. We all have to look after the vulnerable in our community, that’s simple humanity.
Beyond that, I will avoid situations where masks are required - so food shopping is essential (while I can walk, I feel that online slots should be kept for those shielding or who have difficulty shopping) but discretionary shopping isn’t. That’s why I ticked Other in the poll above - for me, having to wear a mask in shops means I will choose not to go to them unless essential. Given the low footfall in the retail area, it would appear that others think the same.
And I also agree about mixed, patronising and confusing messages from Government. Particularly when advice changes after someone has been caughr out contravening rules that they helped to develop!

Masks are a bit of a pain with a spectacles and ear-aid combo. I don’t enjoy them but understand the need so will wear in supermarkets.

Actually what we will get is a lot of “minimum level” mask wearing to comply with the letter of regulations. Wear a mask around the neck and pull up or put in pocket and put on in a hurry where necessary. Of course a lot of these masks will be unwashed or a week old “single use”. Does this type of mask wearing have a benefit (or otherwise)?

People really seem to be overthinking this.

The rule is for face coverings not medical masks. We have a number of well made, soft cotton masks.

They are comfortable to wear. Place them in a plastic bag and remember to take them out along with your keys and phone when you leave the house.

Once you are done wearing them place them back in the plastic bag and rinse clean when you get home.

And if you’re worried about killing germs on the cotton ones, iron them. I’ve got several as well - I quite like having a range of patterns.

Thats a good idea. My main issue is just having enough other things to wash at a hot temperature! Towels and bedsheets are getting more frequent spin than usual just to justify mask washing.

We just handwash them, figuring if it is good enough for hands then it is good enough for masks.

I just find it a bit disparaging that anyone who tries to give a more balanced view of the COVID situation whether it be the severity of the lockdown, school closures, mask wearing, death rates, herd immunity etc. Is just called selfish or stupid. When there’s plenty of disputed science and medical opinion as to the approach we have taken (which is clear from the constantly changing advice and scientific data).

But oh well. Let’s just all shut up and wear our masks. And I will of course comply with any rules or laws. Doesn’t mean I have to agree with them or think it should be handled in a different way.

There is plenty of dispute, you’re right.

But whoever is right or wrong, wearing a mask is a trivial inconvenience and has the potential to help reassure others, if nothing else.

Agree. But I am slightly concerned it will extend to “any public place”. But it seems they are pulling back on that now.

I don’t think farting in public is the polite thing to do. But is very acceptable in front of someone who refuses to wear a mask on public transport for no reason. The same re the old quote re smoking. “Do you mind if I smoke?” Reply: “Do you mind if I fart? “

What are your concerns about masks hollow?

We are still learning and no action is 100% effective. For me it is one of a number of things we can do which will hopefully all add up to stopping the spread. Wearing a mask seems a small sacrifice to make.

I am lucky that due to my health, sex, age and job I am at very low risk. However it distresses me that I could be putting other people at risk as I go out and about by possible asymptomatic spreading. Therefore wearing a mask to protect others is the least I can do.

From the good old USA.

Screenshot 2020-07-18 at 09.43.56791×727 507 KB

I had this trouble initially, they only broke when I tried to put the elastic around both ears at the same time. Once I started putting on one side first, then slowly putting on other, I haven’t had one break since.

My nephew who drives for London Overground told me earlier, that from his observations over the last week, at least 90% of people are wearing masks whilst using the service. Passengers are still waiting until they’re boarding before they put the masks on though, so you’ll get plenty of people on platforms without wearing one, but once they board, masks go on. The rest who don’t though, you just have to assume they have a valid exemption. Staff are exempt form wearing masks whilst at work, but he said you’ll see most drivers wearing masks whilst waiting to pick up a train or leaving a train to go to break rooms etc.

Mask wearing protects others. I want to be protected so want others to wear masks, just as I wear a mask to protect other people. It should not be a matter of personal choice whether you infect other people with a dangerous illness.

I have used public transport only twice since March and am not keen to do it again while people ignore these rules. That means I am trapped in SE23/26.

I realise I’m up against it trying to argue this. But I find them a major inconvenience, uncomfortable and difficult to breathe through. Not sure if that’s because I have severe hayfever. Because I don’t understand people who say it’s not an inconvenience.

I also find the scientific evidence very unconvincing and believe they only provide a minor benefit. Especially the way the public uses them and wears the same mask all day long. Minor to the point where it should not be forced but recommended.

There are scientists and epidemiologists who disagree with a lot of the policies and actions by the Government. But people are going to cherry pick the ones that support their point of view.

I don’t have a problem with public transport or shops. If it makes people feel safe and shop owners want it. Then I’m happy to wear it for a short amount of time. I just don’t want to have to wear them all day long or in a park or anywhere else where you can reasonably distance.

The problem is that the main beneficiary of wearing the mask is ‘other people’. Personally, it doesn’t feel fair to allow those who do not care enough about other people to wear one to chose not to wear one.

I don’t think you will ever have to.

Pretty sure doctors and nurses and healthcare people suffer from Hayfever. They wear masks.

We have harvesting around us at the moment, my Hayfever is terrible. I still wear a mask.

But that’s my choice.

Edit: rereading that is sounds quite harsh. Sorry, it was not meant to be.

They put it on to board and roughly 30% drop it to their chins or below their nostrils once they sit down…and thats no exaggeration.
I dread when the trains are back to their old capacity because it’ll be like swimming in a petri dish

You’re very lucky.
I’ve had to commute to work using 4 trains a day since late May.
And wear a mask all day at work.
I dont enjoy any of it but its a small price to pay until a vaccine (god willing) is found

Hi @Hollow

I agree with most of what you say - I find them uncomfortable and suspect most people do to varying degrees - we all have different tolerance levels so this will be different for different people in the same situation.

The scientific evidence is shall we say mixed on the benefits - like many things there simply has not really been the time for proper studies. Like you I will wear masks in shops and on public transport (I don’t understand why anyone would wait for the official day, just do it now) but that doesn’t mean you can’t dispute or argue against there effectiveness, which is what I think you are doing.

All this only makes you appreciate even more so what NHS workers are having to go through wearing full PPE kit for so many hours in what must be unbearable conditions - if they can do it and put themselves at risk in higher risk situations and for longer periods of time, we all have a duty to try and do our bit to not expose them and others to further risk (and to be clear I know you are saying you will be doing this).

Bravo!

There is another face to this discussion. We should also have concern for those people in retail who serve and assist us. They risk exposure throughout the day with hundreds of interactions with customers. Besides concern for my personal health it is for them I have been wearing masks and would continue to do so despite target dates set by government.

Of course scientists are learning more everyday about the virus. And public advice will be adjusted accordingly. But there is an overwhelming body of study to suggest social distancing, use of face coverings is effective to limit the transmission of the disease.

I, as I suppose most dont have the expertise or capacity to review them all. So we should take heed to studies like this one published in the Lancet which is a systematic review and meta-analysis of 216 other studies.

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(20)31142-9/fulltext

Absolutely, I was trying to make that point also, perhaps not well enough but I completely agree.

Thanks for the link, will have a look later.

Why is it always 1 rule for us, 1 rule for them. I want to be protected from their virus

Perhaps it is because they are generally in a private cab.

I have made myself 3 masks. 2 out of a t-shirt & one out of a pillowcase. I use elastic to go round the ears.
I wouldn’t go on public transport or the shops without a mask on. I have been shielding, so feel it is very important for my own health.
I wouldn’t confront someone about not wearing one unless I felt compromised, as it’s obvious what sort of response you are going to get if they can’t be bothered to wear one in the first place. If they are just being selfish, then more fool them.

Under the “The Health Protection (Coronavirus, Wearing of Face Coverings on Public Transport) (England) Regulations 2020” legislation, The requirement to wear a face covering does not apply to…“an employee of the operator of the relevant public transport service acting in the course of their employment”.

Which means gate line staff who are exposed to thousands of people a day aren’t obliged to stop us getting their virus (appreciate a lot will and that FH generally doesnt have gate line staff)

Do you feel this exemption needs tightening up?

I have frequently seen people who are required to wear face masks not complying.

Ok, but he is talking about people who are not required to wear face covering.

It’s not mandatory for shop or transport staff to wear mask because it may not be suitable in that environment. For example, it could be seen as discriminatory for those with a disability that rely on seeing the person’s mouth or full face. Especially those with a hearing disability that really on lip reading or those with a mental health disability that may suffer from anxiety if they can’t see a person’s full face. It would put them at a disadvantage when out shopping etc. To make it compulsory for staff will result in shops having to provide full screens or full clear face masks for all customer facing staff. Smaller businesses may not be able to fund that.

Staff are still required to keep their distance from customers so they are not forcing their virus on you or any other person.

@beatrix May not and is not are very different things. 90% of rail workers aren’t customer facing (though it sometimes feels like 100% at FH) and tfl is rich enough to afford see-thru plastic. Sainsburys is another good example - particularly the self checkouts where the unmasked staff will shove you into other customers to protect themselves because they choose not to wear masks (or implement the simple kiosk control which means they can fix issues at a distance)
Of course a lot of the argument can be applied to whether office workers should have to wear masks

90% of rail workers aren’t customer facing (though it sometimes feels like 100% at FH)

Oooh love it! That’s been my feeling for a while now too!

Saw this today which could have been anywhere, something to keep in mind and keep us balanced.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-53539468

When Saule briefly removed her covering to speak, a woman began to shout verbal abuse, despite the sisters explaining Karolina was registered as deafblind.

Disability charity Sense called for more awareness of face mask rules.

Mobile footage shows the woman refusing to accept the sisters’ explanation that Ms Pakenaite is hard of hearing and visually impaired.

If the number of passengers on the 185’s and 122’s to and from Catford and Lewisham still not wearing face coverings or wearing them under their chins were each fined the £100 they should be then TFL would be able to reduce some of their debt very quickly!

Only need to collect an extra £200 from everyone in London and the bailout would be paid off! Or the 80% of people in FH who don’t wear masks can pay the fine 50 times

A friend of mine was recently in Italy. She told me the Italians were wearing face masks as armbands. I was a bit surprised they weren’t wearing them as face masks but it turned out what she meant was they put them on their arms when they weren’t in enclosed spaces and so weren’t wearing them. Which on reflection seems a lot more sensible than putting the potentially contaminated mask on your chin right by your mouth!

Staff aren’t required to wear them because if they were, they still wouldn’t wear them. Hence they have to say it’s not mandatory to keep the illusion going.

Nobody is enforcing it. The police aren’t enforcing it. They won’t come if you call them. The more data that comes out day by day, more and more people are waking up to how stupid this all is.

Virtually everyone in the supermarkets are wearing them without issue, everyone without exception was wearing them on the train last week - it seems most of the population from my limited experience dont have an issue with them…
I know you do but what data do you have that this is “stupid”, there seems plenty of evidence to suggest masks are effective against spreading droplets.

A 15% reduction in spread of infection in the study I looked at. An infection that has an ever declining death rate. And 99% of people who have died have been over 65 and/or with a pre existing condition. Average excess deaths have also been below the 5 year rolling average for 6 weeks in a row now, despite infections increasing and restrictions being relaxed.

That’s why the media aren’t reporting deaths anymore. Because it’s not useful in spreading fear.

A 15% reduction in spread makes a big difference in the long term due to exponential nature of disease spread (just a small changes to the exponent will make a massive difference in lives saved or lost over the long term).

Wouldn’t you feel like a hero if wearing your mask resulted in a single live saved? And wouldn’t you feel like a villain if by avoiding masks, your actions led to someone losing their mother or father?

Why would it matter what age victims are, whether they have pre existing conditions and what proportion of death might be avoided if by simply wearing a mask you could help to prevent people from dying unnecessarily? Why is that even a consideration if you accept that simply wearing a mask can limit the spread of a virus that kills people who would otherwise be enjoying life with their families?

No I do not feel like a “hero” wearing a mask that has a fraction of a percentage to do anything. That’s called virtue signalling.

Why do the emotive arguments come out once the facts about how relatively benign the virus is are presented? Perhaps if we had less emotive arguments and more arguments based on logic and data (or there lack of) we wouldn’t have abandoned nursing homes causing the majority of the deaths.

The age and the context of the deaths are entirely relevant. I think our society forgets that 1,500 people die per day on a normal day in the UK. Our culture is probably partly to blame for that. We throw old people in nursing homes and forget about them. And we are not exposed to their deaths on a daily basis.

I’m sorry about the appeal to emotion. You’re right, it’s not a good style of argument.

However, Covid-19 is different from seasonal flu, and it’s not “relatively benign”.

We’ve only seen a decline in death rates after shutting down nearly the entire world economy.

My arguments are coming from a place where I don’t want the people to be fearful or scared of going about their daily lives. Or look at someone without a mask and feel anger or an irrational fear. Or turn the community against themselves.

I think we need to balance logical restrictions with personal freedoms/rights and the economy. It’s a delicate balancing act and I get that I’m not going to convince many people.

Well the easiest way to do that surely is to wear a mask if you can? I don’t know why some people get so angry about them, they are a cheap and easy safety measure to try and stop spreading the virus to other people. That is all.

I have invested in some cheerful Liberty print ones that look nicer than the medical looking blue ones and are more comfortable to wear.

I also don’t understand why people get so worked up about wearing a face covering. If it stops one person from getting ill, and costs you practically nothing beyond some mild discomfort, why wouldn’t you do it? The most common reasons I’ve seen given for non-compliance are “I don’t want to be told what to do” and “I don’t see the point”, neither of which seems like a convincing argument to me. I could think of a range of behaviours which are analogous to this but don’t really want to see the discussion descend into whataboutery.

I think that in this case we are just being considerate of our fellow people, including those working in shops. I don’t think that it’s really virtue-signalling so much as the face covering necessarily being a visible sign of that consideration. It’s not bragging about massive charitable contributions. It’s taking a practical step which might help, and can’t really hurt. And seeing others wearing a mask is actually a signal that they’re being considerate. I may not see how often someone washes their hands, but I can see that they’re doing what they can to prevent droplets spreading.

Fundamentally, what’s the harm in wearing a face covering? I’ve seen some utter nonsense about “carbon dioxide poisoning” which doesn’t hold to to any serious scientific scrutiny.

@Dave Its not carbon dioxide they are worried about - its that other foul smelling thing coming out their mouths that they don’t want to smell!

From first hand experience, the peak of the virus with no checks in place pushed our hospitals way over capacity and near collapse. That can’t be allowed to happen again no matter what age these patients are.

I think this is hugely valid. The more hospitals are overwhemled with this, the more other treatments are delayed, which will have a negative and more unseen impact.

The other thing to consider is that whilst the fatality rate if often mentioned, there is also the issue for those who may suffer longterm and potentially life changing issues are a result of this virus, many of which are still unknown.

We are going to have to learn to live with this virus, and until we get a vaccine we will all have to do what it is believed is right to minimise the chances of people catching it.

There is however no issue with questioning whether the methods used are effective, or the most effective.

Ultimately, ultimately, until we have successful vaccines and \ or treatments, we can only hope to control this virus if the majority of the population adhere to the guidelines as best they can. There will be a lot of trial and error, and we may be asked to do somethings than we then discover have limited impact - we will have to live with that.

Travelled on the 185 (FH station to Denmark Hill) this morning - first time since March. Disappointed to note that only about two-thirds of the passengers wore face coverings. All but one of the offenders I noticed were (mostly young) women.

Just wondering if any of you have stopped to think whether any of the people you encounter without masks may have a hidden disability that prevents them from wearing a facemask. And how they might feel reading this forum and knowing you are judging and vilifying them for it.

I agree. Judge not lest ye be judged. It’s a very stressful time for everyone and we should do what we all feel is right and live in peace. Although having a debate about this is still great!

Of course there is a range of disabilities that mask wearing isn’t appropriate (and most of them aren’t people who should be shielding). Though I would be very worried is Lewisham is 50% disabled (quick count from the last two buses I saw in the last 2mins)

You do not have to wear a mask if you have a disability or any other exemption which includes mental distress. And you do not need to see a doctor to diagnose you or get any certificate.

Nobody is allowed to ask you to prove your disability or exemption. They have no right to do that. That would be discrimination. It’s also just tyrannical.

I’m not making this up its directly from the Government website.

That’s odd. People have disabled badges in cars to prove they can legitimately park in disabled spots, so why not?

There was an older man on the 171 I was travelling on yesterday with an exemption ‘certificate’ around his neck.
He had it tucked inside his coat at first, but made it visible when he saw a few people looking at him.

My guess is that displaying a badge in your car is slightly different to asking someone what their medical condition is, which is private. I guess a private business could refuse you service but that’s getting in to dangerous territory for them because it would mean they are discriminating against disabled people.

There seems to be well established laws around blue badges and their usage. But they don’t apply in private car parks.

It would probably be a legal nightmare to create such laws making disabled people wear badges around their necks to prove they have a disability.

Without masks this will never be controlled. Public transport, like other enclosed spaces, is particularly dangerous, which is why so many bus drivers have died. Those who say this is not a dangerous virus are not doing their research. It is easily transmissible even by younger people, and in addition younger people are now getting ill more.

People not wearing masks puts other people in danger. I will take public transport as little as possible as long as people are not obeying the rules.

I’ve seen same on the underground.

I believe in some countries this was done, but that means people needed to get certificates from already overworked doctors I believe, and of course lots of people wanted them.

I believe the government were thinking of a voluntary badge scheme similar to the badges already available o public transport for those who might have hidden disabilities (or not) and might need a seat when it might not be obvious they do. For me this would be the best way.

I suppose there may not always be a clear line in people’s minds between ‘I cannot wear a mask for health reasons’ (e.g. anxiety, autism, breathing problems) and ‘I hate wearing a mask, it’s uncomfortable and looks stupid, so I’m not going to.’

A friend says she cannot wear a face mask as it makes her feel faint. I asked her if she wears a scarf in winter, she does. I told her to wear a light scarf as you must wear a face covering by law, not specifically a mask.

My mum really struggles with breathing when she puts on her mask, especially in this hot weather but she will wear one to protect others, & their circumstances. so when she goes to the supermarket for a weekly shop she wears it & I’m glad she puts up with it, to give her some protection too.

I also worry for those people coming out of shielding as there are now more people about and not everyone is conscious to their social distancing as much either. It’s a terrible fear if you are trying to protect a vulnerable person & for the vulnerable who have to go out. So the more everyone does what they can to protect everyone, the better!
If you can wear one then please do! Too many people are waiting for life saving or life extending treatments & the sooner these facilities can start properly is not soon enough as lives sadly have already been lost too soon already.

I still cannot believe when a man & wife thought they could make a big point to me back in March because I had a face mask on in the queue at Sainsbury’s. He apparently worked at kings hospital and they said masks don’t work and pointless me wearing it etc, etc!
They didn’t know my personal circumstance & fear I had to protect my vulnerable loved one. So should of just kept their opinion to themselves. They obviously didn’t have the shear worry and dread I did when going out for essentials.

On a positive I’m glad to see majority of people wearing face coverings If they can around Forest Hill when I go out shopping.

I’ve found they feel odd and a bit stifling at first but the more you wear them the more you get used to them.

If you use cloth ones it is worth experimenting with materials. I have found ones made from good quality tana lawn cotton ( think good quality dress shirts) are comfortable and cool in this hot weather.

I am in Mallorca at the moment. It’s boiling. 99.9% of people are wearing masks in public. No-one is complaining, they just get on with life.

I was at Tesco in Catford today. 60% of people were wearing masks and of those 75% were not covering their noses.

Were facemasks compulsory for the duration of the flight?

I try to avoid going to Catford unless absolutely necessary which usually means i have to go to the excellent Compton Cycles to get a bit for my bike, but on the two occasions I have been to Catford this week I noticed that there seems to be a much lower level of mask wearing than in other areas round here. I do wonder why that is.

Yes, and the flight attendants continually had to ask a few individuals to keep them on including a petulant kid who was whining about not wanting to wear one to his mother. He was about 17.

I want to bring back flogging!

Yes, there was a lot of that in Stansted. Also a lot of mask selfies

Love that some people’s behaviour has become disgusting, unnecessary and violent. Take Australia for one of many examples a female attacked a police officer leaving him with head injuries all because he politely asked the women to where a mask. Sad how some people act these days the rules are for a reason. Not for fun but you can make it fun with fun smiley masks such idiots. Then again some people still don’t know how to social distance still they think they superior. The governments purposely mixed messaging is the reason. Other countries are being clear. Thanks for sharing this pic!!

I wonder whether anyone (PHE,TfL?) is systematically monitoring the extent to which people are obeying the law and wearing face coverings on public transport and in shops - either on a national or a local/regional basis? If there is a serious compliance problem - and recent posts here suggest there might be - I’d have thought the powers that be would want to know about it and consider what might be done to deal with it.

If people want to go on a flight or public transport they should adhere to the rules the company has set.

But those companies will also have to deal with the economic fallout from that. Airlines will be decimated. I think we will also see a significant downsizing of public transport in a years time. Because let’s face it - even if we ended all restrictions tomorrow - the majority of people aren’t going back to their old ways. But I think that’s a good thing.

The furlough money and business loans are going to run out very soon. Can’t just keep running empty trains and handing out free cash.

Airlines I would think are more impacted by government travel restrictions more than people not wanting to wear masks. More and more country bans coming into effect. I can’t even get on the Eurotunnel anymore and drive to Germany to visit my dad because I have to drive through Belgium. Even passing through counts as a quarantinable activity.

I do agree about public transport in London though - traffic seems to be much worse recently as people choose to drive. Personally I’ve been on a train once since lockdown and that was only because some idiot in a van hit me on my bike so I needed stitches in the hospital and some way to get home!

@clausy Don’t fancy a scenic journey through Northern France?

A detour through the Champagne region… could be worse, although I expect France will be on the list again soon too… best not to plan anything at the moment I fear.

Or we could go on their list!

Because it’s a dump with a high peasant quota.

One of the online definitions of ‘peasant’ is: a member of a European class of persons tilling the soil as small landowners or as laborers

I think to call some of these characters ‘peasants’ is a grievous insult to peasants the world over.

Sorry to hear you got hit, hope you’re doing okay!

Yes, me too. Wasn’t in Catford was it ?

Careful. You’ll be initiating a bitch fight between the membership of SE6.life and SE23.life. A new type of family feud.

No up in Shadwell, ironically on the Cycle ‘Superhighway’ CS3. Only 5 stitches, back second week of lockdown. Anyway to get things back on topic, they let me keep the surgical facemask to wear home on the train. It wasn’t even mandatory, and you couldn’t really buy them anywhere at that point. So I was still happy to have one. Mind you, there were probably 4 people on the whole train.

And you Sir can expect a visit from the PC police if you use such expressions as ‘bitch fight’ !

Deary me !

Should it be the gender neutral “dog fight”?

Notably today, face coverings are required in even more places:

Hopefully as the areas expand, the guidance will become simpler and more people will feel it normal to wear them and help protect each other.

More food for thought:

I’ve been lucky recently as I’ve had the use of a company van lately so I haven’t had to use public transport for the last few months but it’s in for a service and everyone took the day off because of the heat and I got the 202 up to Wells Park Surgery and it was like an oven and I took the mask off about five minutes into the journey.

Imagine what it be like for the driver.

He or she signed-up for it.

I don’t think they did. I can’t imagine their application included wearing a mask because of Covid.

Probably not, unless they were recruited in the last 3 months.

I believe you can get exempt badges but I can completely understand that in a situation such as this people might not want to wear one. Also interesting that she gets challenged so much - I wouldn’t challenge anyone actually because of a concern that they might be exempt (and therefore might be upset as she has been) or they might be aggressive. Nor have I seen much challenge going on.