Hey everyone, I along with a group of other skateboarders had taken over the derelict land of the car park at the grove just by dulwich woods, we had cleared out the weeds and cleared all the rubbish ourselves to create an ever growing inclusive community skate park, as it has been a wasteland for 8 years with no care given we thought it would be an ideal spot to regenerate however we have come into issues with the property owners claiming we are vandalising and trespassing and everything we have built will be demolished in two weeks, understanding we don’t have a footing legally I was hoping to see what the communities opinions on our park are and if anyone knows who the owners are, they said they want to get rid of our work so they can clear a path for removing the weeds and we’d like to offer to band all the skateboarders together and do the work free of charge in hopes to co-exist until they have plans of actual redevelopment. Thanks in advance, Leo!
DIY skatepark at The Grove / Harvester car park
We have placed rules within the park of skating only within sociable hours, no cannabis and dispose of your litter, the tennis courts owner and local shops are in support of us and some residents we have spoken to within the local estates have not had an issue apart from one who came down screaming at us and picked up a shovel and continued to threat us, including minors, we told him we did not want any violence and to leave and he then went on to call the police claiming we had threatened him and he tried to say we are skating at 4 in the morning every night despite the fact there are no lights and that would be impossible. Police officers that responded to these calls have been impressed and in support of what we have done however it’s still of concern.
Hi Leo - i think it is great if that area is used by locals for something good.
I think the owners of the derelict pub and grounds are Dulwich Estates.
Okay thank you, I’ll try to reach out however knowing dulwich estates and their history with other community spaces such as the battle to destroy Herne hill velodrome, I can’t imagine we have much hope haha. Cheers Hannah!
May be speak to the Council? I think they would be supportive of a place that allows young people to exercise and socialise safely.
I was thinking talking to the council about the fact it is an eyesore - they do have some powers for repossesion - and after 8 years they probably could. Horrible place for houses - but a skate park would be decent to the community. Of course you couldn’t cause any more noise than the two major roads
I definitely think a skate park is better than a derelict pub.
Careful when talking to the council though - they take health and safety… and liability… very seriously.
If a child injures themselves on a ramp you built, who’s fault is it? The property owner and the council certainly won’t want any liability here and I think this may be your biggest barrier in this project, once you’ve got over the obvious issues with the current ownership.
This is one of those ideas that’s great until it goes wrong (like wild swimming at Beckenham Place Park, when two children nearly drowned, causing an immediate shutdown)
Good luck @LB96. I’ve been past it and thought how good it was the space was being used. Especially at the moment people need outside space, whatever the outcome well done on your initiative.
Yes you’re right about liability, it’s something we’ve been trying to work out ourselves, I know full well no skateboarders would be wanting to sue but maybe there’s a possibility of signing a contract with the owners, thanks for your advice!
I saw some of you guys there today as I cycled to work and immediately thought it was great that it was being put to use. That place is becoming an eyesore - good luck with the project.
I think a landowner’s biggest concern will be that you may acquire or claim some rights over the land, if you continue to use it.
Renters don’t get squatters rights - they are all about lack of permission
Good luck talking to Dulwich Estates, they aren’t the most accommodating to change…
I hope you get to keep the setup, one of mates has skated there and a decent street park is needed in this area.
Might be worth getting in touch with those at Stockwell bowl to see if they can give you any advice
https://instagram.com/friendsofstockwellskatepark
Reading the wikipedia article it looks like they aren’t allowed to be charitable towards other parties. Maybe if you approached Dulwich College they might be able to ‘sponsor’ the site.
I’m assuming you are more ‘youthful’ people
Be careful thinking like that, you never know what life will throw and people and how they will react, no matter how well intentioned now, and it can always be there families or others etc.
I’d listen to the advice above and see what other parks do, and then decide if and what signs should be up.
I am far from an expert, but if you wanted to get some form of liability insurance I suspect you will need to get various Health and Safety inspections (or whatever is required) and insurance might not be cheap.
If you are a loose ad-hoc group just going there for fun, no membership, defined organisation etc not sure how liability would work there.
Best speaking to people who have done this before - I know it’s not the same but maybe the BMX people in Peckham who have an interesting story here: http://www.peckhambmx.co.uk/about/
6 posts were split to a new topic: Tunnelling the A205 South Circ through Forest Hill
Well sadly dulwich have responded to our plea and refused, the park we have built will be demolished on the 8th of August 
That’s sad to hear, and sadly not unexpected
Out of interest, if you were in contact with Dulwich Estates, did you ask how much rent would be, and what conditions would need to be met? I’m guessing it would be some silly amount (basically them saying ‘no’ again), but if not, maybe a crowdfunder could have helped?
I know it isn’t Lewisham (or even SE23) but they must be saving a fortune from not giving money to the Leisure Centres. Southwark Council might have some spare money…
That is so disappointing. That area is such an eyesore, it was great seeing it being used by you and giving local kids something to do.
Could you start a social media campaign?
Yeah we considered maybe starting a petition, just trying to asses if we have enough time and how affective it would be but I suppose what’s the worst that could happen, maybe I will start one ASAP, I think other friends involved are trying to make another attempt to plea. Will inform!
Good morning! Discovered the skatepark this morning and what a find! Don’t supposed anyone would be interested in being photographed skating and hanging out at the park before it gets demolished? I’m @ollyburn on Instagram
I may not pass that way before August the 8th, but would love to see a picture or two of what has been done.
Maybe we can get it listed as a historic monument? Genuine example of Covid-19 (2020) distancing archicture. It takes years to go through the process
Please don’t be too critical of the people at DE; they are a charitable trust and as such the trustees overriding legal duty is solely to advance the purposes of the charity within the governing document and the law so it is very likely that their hands are tied even if they are sympathetic.
LOL they are self serving money grabbing *****
Nivag, if you care to look at their website you will see that the money they “grab” funds bursaries for over 300 children per year from poorer families to attend the 7 schools and colleges that they support; the numerous almshouses that provide accommodation for poor older people; the upkeep of Christ’s Chapel and the many private roads and amenities of the wider estate and all of this is governed by 13 unpaid trustees. Not exactly what I would describe as “self serving”.
These days charities are also supposed to help the public. Personally, I think allowing a derelict site to be used for recreational purposes meets this description.
However, I suspect that they have an ultimate plan for the use of the site and feel that the skateboard park would make it more difficult to get planning permission.
@JohnH1 Are you seeing a different part of the website to me? I see they fund 7 private schools whose fees stretch the word ‘charity’ to absurdity and they support 1 almshouse which supports 15 people and provides 43k a year in grants to other charities (about 15% of their annual cost).
I’m not denying they are a charity - but they are incredibly focused on private schooling.
They collect £200k a year in tolls on a road which shouldn’t be private at all - but does increase their portfolio value
The Trustees appear to be unpaid - but as far as I can tell do have their property charges reembursed - but this isn’t clear
If you have Instagram search for the grove diy!!
Why shouldn’t the road be private - there are hundreds of private roads in London?
The estate alone has over 70 roads (or parts of roads) which are their responsibility and there are many more dotted around south London.
I have to admit that I work for one of the schools that receive funding from DE and regardless of the dubious nature of the charitable status the monies received from the estate go to bursaries rather than general running costs allowing less well off people to attend the school - as some of my friends children have.
More to the point however is their reputation as being extremely hard nosed, rent rising landlords - there is a lot of history there and not all of it is good. However with the appointment of Simone Crofton there has been a change of emphasis in that they are trying to promote Dulwich Village and bring in shops like the Proud Sow to attract footfall to the area.
The pub and car park are leased to Stonegate until 2025 so DE are getting paid no matter what happens to it. It must be costing them a fortune to have it sitting there empty so they must be eyeing a pay day down the line…
A Dulwich Estate spokeswoman said: “No other pub operator [besides Stonegate] is interested in the premises. Therefore, The Dulwich Estate hopes that the whole site can be redeveloped for mixed use with a commercial element to provide employment and high quality housing, including affordable homes. This would support the Council’s vision for jobs and homes under the New Southwark Plan. As with any development, proposals will have to satisfy local authority requirements, but also be sustainable.”
I think it is a great place for a pub but it will end up as generic flats…
Why wouldn’t another pub operator be interested in the premises? Surely a place of that size, with a car park and right beside the South Circ, would be a great proposition in normal circumstances?
I totally agree - I think it is a great venue with tons of customers on the doorstep. However I think the costs of renting and redeveloping it now would be prohibitive for most pub companies - it was never sorted after a fire back in 2014.
@Foresthillnick I believe the tolgate has been contentious for centuries - the difference between this and other private roads is that it actually goes somewhere - most private roads don’t. The council has tried before to take it, but Dulwich Estates demands compensation - probably something like the 200k a year they collect * 100 years
Are there really many customers around? Two sides are park and school, the other two sides seem to be mainly family houses (I know there are council blocks immediately next door). Further away you are competing with Dulwich and FH
My son is 14 and he’s been going to The Grove skate park for a while now. Like most kids, there’s been no school since March, and like most of us early on he rarely saw his friends and had little contact outside his home.
Since we’ve been allowed more freedom the skate park has become somewhere he chooses to go as it’s one of the few options that’s been available. Where older people might be meeting friends in the local parks, I don’t think these are quite as safe a place for younger people at the moment. Last week he was nearly mugged for phones and money in the grounds of the Horniman museum with a group of friends by some covid masked youths on bikes. He avoids seemingly safe places such as Dulwich park for the same reasons.
He says at The Grove he feels safe as there’s older people there who are looking after the place. I thinks this is one reality of where we are now living in society.
I’m a leaseholder living on Dulwich Estate
since 2003. Glad to hear they’ve got someone more forward thinking on board. Compared
to the bucolic experience of passing through Dulwich village proper, I’m really quite surprised how they’ve allowed the Grove to become so neglected a site over recent years.
Some respect and support is due to the people who are putting this space to some good use for local young people. It may look shabby and DIY whilst you’re queuing in traffic at the lights, but it’s certainly not as bad as the empty waste ground thats been there for the last six years.
Most leases require the tenant to maintain the property and restore it to its original condition on termination of the lease. Options might be to forfeit the lease, but DE could not collect rents. Or require the tenant to maintain the property, which seems to be the more sensible solution.
Obviously, I cannot examine the lease, but this is the normal position.
Sadly, it probably suits everybody to let the property become derelict in order to make demolition easier.
Until the Dulwich Beer Dispensary opened there were no pubs in either direction for quite some way so I think there is demand there under normal circumstances. It isn’t actually that close to the school and there is a estate to the north west and masses of residential to the north and east over the road. Plus there are plenty of people going to the walk and to the sports clubs along the circ…
Anyway I don’t think it will ever be a pub again regardless of what I think. Seems destined to be redeveloped at some point.
According to the DE accounts they take 201,000 a year on the road but spend 142,000 maintaining the road and running the toll. They do say that
It helps to control the volume of traffic and heavy goods vehicles using this section of the road and lessens the environmental impact on the surrounding area.
I must say it is one of the nicest roads around to cycle up and, better yet, down,
Most of the pubs where I live have closed.
We don’t have the culture of popping down to the pub for a pint as much as we used to have. It might have a lot to do with the price of a pint in a pub.
Also I expect that the Grove may have lost a few locals to local sports grounds, if they have their own bar.
Hey glad to hear! We must have met him for sure as we’ve been discussing how great it is to see them with friends their own age having the best time and they all hang out with us too! They’re definitely in a safe space and there has not yet been any attempts by other individuals to harass and victimise anyone at our spot, I too remember being of a similar age and having trouble with kids who have been caught in to more troubling behaviours so I can appreciate how comforting it is, the community aspect of what we’ve created seems to be very significant. But yeah sadly we only have one week left.
We decided to spend the last of the donations for materials today and finish creating long quarter pipe and hip today which if anyone pops by take a look and say hi! Thanks for the support everyone!
I note there’s a petition on your Instagram - just filling it out now, good luck.
You legend! Thank you very much was just about to link it! If anyone in support could sign and share it would mean the so much to us! Much love, Leo and everyone down at the grove!
Good luck guys.
I understand that you have some considerable support in the Dulwich community.
I suggest that you widen your publicity by contacting journalists
For example;-
Newsshopper
Telephone Number
020 8722 6300
Editor
- Will Harrison
- will.harrison@newsquest.co.uk
Stories in the local press often get picked up by the national press and TV.
Love this new video on Instagram
Hello LB - can you message me - I may be able to offer some help.
Regards