Night works on Forest Hill to Honor Oak Park

Just got a letter advising me that starting 8th September ending 23rd October there will be over 20 nights of night work - only 4 of them over weekends. They promise noise and light shows between midnight and 6am.

To show their poor planning (like 1 weeks notice) the link networkrail.co.uk/SouthEastUpgrade doesn’t show these works (but shows Honor Oak track replacements as complete) and says it is part of the Tonbridge/Kent upgrades - despite those trains not running through Forest Hill.

Yet again selfish narrow minded I don’t care get it done people!! I get things need doing but how many times for the track now?? Meh meh meh up the fares

It’s annoying but needed. The track southbound from Honor Oak Park to Forest Hill is in incredibly bad shape. Those that get off at Honor Oak Park won’t notice it, but those that get off at Forest Hill will be able to notice how jerky the train after leaving Honor Oak Park is. There’s a couple of speed restrictions to 50mph on the fast line and 40mph on the slow leaving Forest Hill. It’s a known problem area and things should have been sorted a lot sooner. That stretch has been prone to many occasions of speed restrictions, the worst being 20mph for about 5 weeks. It’s a hotspot for issues so there’s no excuse for it to be left to get to this state that requires such closures.

In regards to Tonbridge/Kent upgrades John, Network Rail is split up in to areas, this area falls under “Southern Region\Kent & Sussex” so anything to do with this line will come under that. It’s just semantics really.

Semantics does mean “we call it some different to what it really is” - it ain’t Tonbridge

But your comment doesn’t mention the fact it is night works when the train line has been down all day two days a week for quite a while - piss poor planning

Just because the entire line is closed, doesn’t mean that they’re doing works on this particular stretch, just that areas where it’s being done means operationally they can’t run a service.

Engineering works north of New Cross Gate = No Southern service from London Bridge to Norwood.
Engineering works also on ELL core route, means no trains at all on this line through Honor Oak/Forest Hill.

Engineering works around Norwood Junction = Possibly only Southern via Crystal Palace and same with LO.

This time with the letter, they’re actually focusing on the track in our area and are undertaken by Network Rail. As I’ve stated in other replies, this isn’t a case of “piss-poor planning”, as the ELL closures were supposed to be in three 4-day closures around Easter, but due to Covid and wanting to allow key workers to get to work, these were postponed. These current closures on Overground are the postponed works done over weekends instead, which obviously takes longer. It’s frustrating I know, but has to be done at some point. All of the LO ELL closures have involved works on the “core route”, or around depot and have been deemed that it’s not practical or possible to run any service. These works are carried out by Cleshar.

Obviously this isn’t a choice that’s taken lightly as ARL will suffer fines by TfL. I will say though, this weekend’s works I’m confused by as the engineering possession is from Highbury to Surrey Quays, 0110 Sat to 0400 Tues. As it doesn’t include the NXG Depot or Silwood Sidings, I can’t see any reason why a service NXG - Croydon/Palace couldn’t have been put in place.

If it’s any consolation, there should be full normal service next weekend, with reinstatement of Dalston-New Cross trains from Sunday 6th. There will still be more works coming up over the next couple of months, with a couple more ELL closures, but most will be either up to Shadwell, or just running South of New Cross Gate. The days where LO runs only up to Shadwell will be due to Crossrail related works at Whitechapel, all others will be line related.

The reinstatement of Dalston Junction - New Cross trains may not go smoothly though, as due to furloughed drivers the depot is not yet back up to full complement, so still expect some cancellations “due to shortage of train crew”. Also, if there are issues, the New Cross trains will be the first to be cancelled.

I know you work for the railway network - but that really isn’t a reason to get defensive. If the Forest Hill area is left without service for a significant amount of time that is a local concern - if they use works in another part of London frequently - that is poor planning. Forest Hill seems to have had works about 1 weekend in 3 for the last 5 years - with a constant decrease of service (remember the charing cross trains, the clapham junction trains, the promised cross london trains?)
If they timed these closure to be at the same time we might at least have a service (and I already expect cancellations “due to shortage of train crew” - though that was usually Southerns excuse)
I know covid posses difficulties - but it shouldn’t be used as an excuse

I think @Flora_Noris is providing really useful insight, the likes of which we don’t see on other forums and social networks. I’m glad for her posts.

I can agree insight is good (though Network Rail really should be providing) - but I think she often goes to the point of defending actions that really shouldn’t have happened - Tonbridge is not Forest Hill (and by coincidence I think you personally know that )

Well, I don’t really see an issue with defending the rail networks. There’s a lot going on that we’re not privy to, and I’m sure the works, annoying as they are, are designed for our ultimate benefit as opposed to annoy us.

‘Our’ is subjective - very much so in this case. If you mean ‘our’ as in ‘the British’ I would agree, if you mean ‘our’ as in people in the SE23 area - thats not true for most of the works - London Bridge, Crystal Palace and New Cross Gate improvements only serve to impede us (they actually take services away from us - temporarily for the works - then permanently because they decide to run routes other ways)
The fact that Network Rail and Southern are monopolies (and one is nationalised) means that secret information should not be a thing - poor communication is just piss poor communication in this case

I think it’s easy as an outsider to overlook the complex rules and regulations around railways and (maintenance) work on them. It may look like inefficiencies and even incompetence at times, but these regulations have been written in blood over the last centuries and are there for good reason.

By the way, Southern and such are effectively nationalised too now, owing to the Covid bailouts:

but I think she often goes to the point of defending actions that really shouldn’t have happened - Tonbridge is not Forest Hill

No it shouldn’t, but in terms of Network Rail, Forest Hill and Tonbridge come under the same area and management/maintenance teams, hence why Honor Oak works come alongside Tonbridge when looking it up as you have done. Not being defensive, just stating facts. I’ll try and refrain from talking about the railway for a while and stick to bins going missing, don’t want to rile you up . Shall we just let trains run all day every day without any maintenance and just pour outrage when there’s a fatal derailment. Then we can start blaming Network Rail for not keeping infrastructure maintained.

@ForestHull has it correct, all the current rules and regulations are written in blood due to previous accidents and incidents. Lessons are learned, amendments are made. That’s why the current railway rule book is updated twice a year. The recent Stonehaven derailment just goes to show what can happen when there’s incidents outside of the railway’s control. Heaven forbid it was due to not maintaining tracks properly.

As I said earlier, the current closures are on other extreme ends of the line, but the works in the letter actually pertain to the line alongside our area. I live directly behind the line between Honor Oak Park and Forest Hill. The only times I have been disturbed during the night is when there’s large works going on, such as track renewal. Tamping (where a train comes along, vibrates the ballast and resets the track alignment), is not much of an issue, as it’s a rhythmic and repeated sound/motion. It also moves along the track at a steady pace, so won’t be be in the same place for long. So if you live alongside the line, you will only have it in your vicinity for a short period. As the letter states, there’s only two nights of track renewal, 19th and 26th September. The rest is tamping and preparation/follow up works.

I’m just confused as to what you’re more outraged about John, not being able to use LO on weekends, or overnight works that haven’t started yet? Both are warranted but I’d rather have to get a bus to get north of New Cross Gate for a couple of weeks than die in a derailment. Of course I will be defensive when it comes to maintenance and safety of the railway, which will always take precedence over passengers’ needs and wants. Also like I mentioned earlier, these closures weren’t planned for this time, but for over Easter holidays, but they’re taking place now. If covid didn’t happen, there would’ve been full LO services happening. However, most of these weekend closures Southern have been running so not sure why the outrage.

I know covid posses difficulties - but it shouldn’t be used as an excuse

There’s lots of drivers who have been furloughed due to being off-track. For either medical or operational reasons. Currently, they’re working to using volunteers of driver instructors who are willing to form “training bubbles”, to work with them to bring them back to operational availability. Only a small percentage of driver instructors are willing to do this currently, which means there’s a bottleneck of drivers returning, which means a massive gap in workforce available for LO to run a full service. So due to the small amount of instructors willing to risk getting covid, there will be delays getting full amount of staff back on the roster. Driver instructors and trainees work in a closed small environment so personal bubbles are being used as the way forward. Beforehand, if someone’s instructor was off, they could just go with another one, but at the moment they have to stick with the one they’ve formed a bubble with.

I really do understand your frustration in not being able to use London Overground on weekends, but these really weren’t supposed to happen at the same time, due to covid there was no choice but to do them now. It’s not ideal but they really couldn’t put them off any longer, which brings us to the current situation. It’s not a “lack of planning” but more a “lack of time”. They were originally planned out to have the least disruption for passengers, but they just can’t put them off any more, and as I’ve said a few times on here already, it was supposed to be over 3 4-day closures around Easter, but have had to spread it over multiple 2-day weekends instead.

The railway is a business; they want to sell tickets.

The fast non-stopping services are of no benefit to the majority of people who are not passengers on these trains. The faster the service, the more disturbance and environmental damage is caused.

The rail companies and Network Rail have no legal obligation to consider line-side communities. There is no legislation establishing standards regarding levels of noise and vibration. When the lines are refurbished I supposed we can expect higher speeds, and increased noise and vibration.

Dont buy near a railway line then seems to be a smart way forward.

Its not always foreseeable. Many people who were not near a railway are now facing the prospect of HS2. A line may have had a slow train service for years, and then high speed is introduced which changes things.

It isn’t a question of trains or no trains. I was raising the issue of high speed through urban areas and the lack of protection for residents. Perhaps Covid has begun the demise of commuting and tour-ism.

Do you think the train companies should be able to run fast services regardless of impact?

When I bought my flat London Bridge was being redone and all the fast trains were diverted on other routes. I had no idea and listened to the noise on my multiple viewings of the flat (right next to the tracks) and deemed it acceptable.
This all changed when LBG was finished and the fast Thameslink and other trains came this way again at full speed along with a few extra non stop ones for good measure.
The stopping trains are completely fine for me… the express I have to pause films for.
So… yes I knew there was a line but no, I didn’t know how bad it would get or they they would change the timetable to make it even worse.
Did anyone complain about the aircraft noise when they live in London under the sky by the way?
Oh yeah, they did didn’t they? Extensively.

I would hope that a refurbished line would be smoother and have less vibration. When they resurface the roads with newer tarmac it’s always much quieter - they’ve improved the mix. Every generation of aircraft also gets quieter. Technology progresses.

Agreed. When we first moved to FH I used to use the slam.door trains. It seemed there was an expansion join every metre. Noisy as heck. The newer trains are much quieter as are the tracks.