Bus Lanes in London are going 24/7 from 13th September

50 miles of London bus lanes to be banned to cars 24/7

FYI follow up from the Congestion charge at weekends just to make sure everyone’s aware.

50 miles of additional free cycle lanes. Yay.

By hampering cars, they certainly will avoid a car-led recovery …

And we can be sure these bus lanes will remain open to diesel-chugging Black Cabs trolling around empty, yet closed to the efficiently-allocated Uber hybrid vehicles.

TfL needs a change of leadership.

Kill the cars !

Even though I’m pro cycling I’m still a car enthusiast. I would just love it if more people would cycle when they have the option. Even a small switch would make a difference. And we don’t subsidise electric propulsion enough either. Even legal escooters are better than diesels

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Errrrrr!

That is my 5 year old 4x4. Seems clean to me.

Sure it’s legal, it’s just not the same as a bicycle or anything electric: car, taxi or bike/scooter. That’s kind of my point about subsidising electric things.

Also, hey at least bus lanes are clear for emergency services, right!

Well no, they have big red busses in the way

My point is, the electrickery has to come from somewhere and we can’t always guarantee its green.

Traffic has been dreadfully bad the last few weeks, but I’m pretty sure the increase in driving and private transport is in response to the fact that a significant number of people haven’t got a care in the world when it comes to wearing masks on public transport.

Actually enforcing mask wearing on public transport is going to cost a cash-strapped TfL money, whereas bus lane restriction is free. If you’re cynical, you could consider it a revenue generator as well…

I don’t know why they haven’t always been 24/7. Sunday’s are nightmare with everyone parking in the bus lanes on Red routes.

Conditions have definitely been worse but I’d love to know if this is down to more vehicles being on the road or how they’re being managed.

Without wanting to go all tin-foil hat, getting through Catford suddenly seems to be taking a lot longer than it used to. Traffic patterns seem a lot less predictable as well.

I’m trying to be philosophical and accept that if I need to use the car I might get somewhere in a more comfortable and COVID-secure environment than a bus or a train, but it is likely to take a lot longer. Cars are rarely the fastest way to travel any significant distance in London during the daytime, though, right?

Possibly a bit of both. I am comfortable riding my bike to most places I need to go in London but am seriously considering a car (likely rental) for longer journeys I might previously have done by train. And as someone who has had a licence but rarely driven for 25 years, that’s saying something.

London traffic has never been quick though. On my cycle commute (pre-COVID), I often used to see a Russell & Bromley van in Dulwich. I’d then see it occasionally en route at Brixton or Stockwell and we’d often cross Vauxhall Bridge together. So a 6 mile journey took the same time.

However, on a route without stop/start traffic (i.e. not London), I’d probably have taken a similar time but the van would have been three or four times quicker.

“…Without wanting to go all tin-foil hat, getting through Catford suddenly seems to be taking a lot longer than it used to. Traffic patterns seem a lot less predictable as well…”

I think this is (partly) down to some of the recent road closures in the area. Previously open short cuts/ rat-runs are no longer open, and until people find new get-arounds, traffic is being forced back on to the main roads. So the S Circular (a nightmare at the best of times) is even worse as traffic levels increase.

I also think that matters in Catford are likely to get worse as more such road closure schemes are rolled out. For example the upcoming ban on right turns out of Ladywell Road onto Lewisham High Street means that traffic from the Crofton Park/Brockley/Honor Oak area wanting to get to places like Lewisham Hospital will have to route either via Lewisham centre or the S Circular through Catford…

As you said, to prevent people using rat runs. More traffic gives people a nudge to walk or cycle. It’s 2.5 miles to Lewisham Hospital, and less if you live in HOP or the East side of SE23. You can cycle there in 10 mins or walk it in 45. It’s 20 mins by car and then you still have to park. Not everyone has to go everywhere by car. I’m going to keep saying this.

A fit and healthy person, confident cyclist, in good weather … etc.

Does that describe the average Lewisham Hospital patient?

… and you are perfectly right to say so.

However, there are people for whom cycling or walking is not an option (in my wildest dreams I can’t imagine my disabled wife jumping on a bike to cycle to her regular hospital appointment) - and in theses cases they are reliant on either private car or taxi.

The closure of roads - which in itself is no bad thing - means that their trips are inevitably going to add to traffic volumes on the main arteries.

That is literally why I said ‘not everyone’. Lewisham Hospital is just an example destination. Probably more than half the people there are staff or visitors. I hope you don’t expect me to think everyone is capable of cycling.

Under normal circumstances (ie not Covid), the council is forced to write up detailed equality reviews for all its policies to ensure they do not disproportionately affect the elderly, disabled etc.

Because that’s ethically the right thing to do.

They’d never be able to get these road closures past a real equality review.

I agree with @clausy if it’s an emergency you’re not going to be driving to the hospital anyway. If it’s not an emergency and a regular checkup public transport or taxis can easily supplement the need to own a vehicle and save you money in the long run.

A lot of these consultations can be done remotely now, the nhs just didn’t have the drive or the funding previously.

Also think about the people who can’t afford a car, are trying to do the right thing and have paid to sit/stand on a busy bus whilst it sits in traffic with everyone else.

Indeed. These are the kind of people affected by the arbitrary closures of residential roads, which pushes more traffic onto main roads, and lengthens journeys for everyone.

…everyone who chooses to drive despite having alternative options that are faster. And to be crystal clear I am talking about people who are fit, healthy and mobile and only going a couple of miles.

Is there any data to show there are enough people that fit the ‘could cycle but drive’ category that converting them all (or some percent of them) will clear up the traffic problem?

In the UK, statistically speaking, that’s not a lot of people.

@Londondrz but we are in London - categorised as a small space with lots of cars and short journey which do tend towards bikes

Of course the reason I don’t is because I get hot and sweaty

http://content.tfl.gov.uk/technical-note-14-who-travels-by-car-in-london.pdf

1/3 are <2km, the next 1/3 is under 5km. 3.7million total car trips per day. Even if you assume half these people could walk or cycle then that’s potentially a million less cars on the road. Even if you expect only 20% of those able people to do something about their lifestyle, then it’s still car 200,000 trips a day saved.

It’s a good report that - but the analysis fails to split much of the data between weekend and weekday use which I think would be much more informative. For example, from the summary:

• Six in ten car trips are made for shopping, leisure and personal business purposes and a fifth for work purposes. A third of car trips are shorter than 2km.
• There are more car journeys on Saturdays and Sunday than during the week, and the
  peak time periods for car travel and the inter-peak (10am-4pm) and afternoon peak
  (4pm-7pm).

Since there are more journeys at weekends, these stats will lean towards those findings, which is probably how we find 60% of trips are being made for shopping, leisure and personal business purposes, and are less than 2km. Given shopping and leisure are more likely to involve transporting goods or passengers, it’s no surprise we have more car use there.

Of course it would be better if these journeys could be made on foot or bike or whatever, but journeys at weekends will be spread across more of the day, so won’t have the same peak traffic as a weekday rush hour.

Looking at it from the otherside, we don’t really learn much about what makes up the traffic during the weekday ‘rush hours’ and whether those journeys can be replaced with walking or cycling. Put simply, the report is not about traffic levels, just the demographics of journeys as a whole.

Given this viewing of the stats, and the need for the economy to recover post-Covid, perhaps it would be more sensible to enact the Low Traffic Neighbourhoods only at weekends and have a “weekend’s are for walking and wheeling” campaign? It raises a question in my mind whether the school streets program is missing the mark, given those closures will only be effective around weekday peek times when most journeys are outside that bracket.

If you read further 20% are people who don’t live in London. Which presumably means 20% of journeys are vastly more than 2km - massively distorting the statistics.

Parents are 60% more likely to drive. 60% are single person trips - which suggests those kids aren’t actually in the car when the parents drive

The biggest factor seems to be borough - with Outer London having more journeys. The blurb isn’t good enough to say whether this is because of a lack of public transport or just because the 20% of non-residents must travel through Outer London.

Sadly I suspect a lot of people drive because they can and often it is cheaper (if you own a car). Plenty of people drive in from outside london to park in FH because it is cheaper than the train (plus car pack outside london). These would be massively discouraged by introducing 24hour parking zones around the station and policing them. It would be simple to allow a 1 hour free period to keep local shop keepers happy

“This paper presents the following analyses, each for London residents only”
http://content.tfl.gov.uk/technical-note-14-who-travels-by-car-in-london.pdf

Why only for residents?

Because it’s TfL and L is for London?

If everyone not wearing a “mask” on TFL services and not exempted actually got fined and the money passed to TFL then their deficit would soon start to reduce! I haven’t been on a 185 or 122 locally for weeks without at least a third of passengers either not wearing a mark at all or wearing it under their nose or chin which renders it useless.

This might not be the same 60%. I don’t think the survey data is good enough to make that link.

The demographics of income vs trips shows those with < £25k income make fewer trips, at all life stages. It’s a shame if those on lower incomes can’t afford cheaper modes of transport, if this is the case.

Or make travel by trains cheaper? Doing both is also an option.

And more convenient - which basically isn’t an option if it means building new lines. It has to be a carrot (cheaper by train) and a stick (more expensive otherwise).
Sadly it still remains cheaper to hire a car and drive to Newcastle than take a same day train

Flying to Edinburgh can also be cheaper than catching the train unless booking in advance. That feels severely wrong too!

Something I have done many times because of the money savings (and the times)

We’re going slightly off topic here so yes I would like to see say Dartmouth Road being a ‘no traffic weekend zone’ and get some market stalls, tables and cafe’s out on the street a la north Cross Road in East Dulwich.

The problem with other roads weekends only is someone would have to move the bollards twice a week. It also doesn’t help make streets safer for people cycling on their commutes. I very much appreciate that people have disabled relatives who need to be driven, but my wife and kids would very much like their dad alive when he cycles home from work. I’ve been hospitalised twice in the last 3 years by careless drivers, once so badly they almost came in an air ambulance. So yes I will keep going on about safer streets for cycling.

Having said my piece, I’ll rest it there, suffice to say my main point was simply to remind people bus lanes 24/7 are happening - please don’t get caught out if you are driving.

That isn’t a bad idea - sadly the fact that bus routes go that way it is probably not feasible
The stretch of Perry Vale from A205 up to Finches could be an option (or we could go whole hog and get the A205 from the station up to Honor Oak Road junction )

That’s usually the problem with any suggestion - different people are impacted in different ways. You’re absolutely right about bus routes.

I do always enjoy the art fairs along Havelock - that’s a dead end anyway, although quite narrow and obviously residential.

There’s obviously the Horniman market on Sunday - that’s getting really good.

The North Cross thing in Dulwich just works really well because it’s mostly commercial and not a bus route.

Well if you are back in the discussion…

The school streets would need setting and clearing each twice a day, so they are using ANPR for Adamsrill: https://lewishamschoolstreets.commonplace.is/schemes/proposals/adamsrill-school/details

Any traffic study needs to take into account all the traffic, not just the vehicles owned by London residents. This was the same problem on another thread about traffic, where Councillor Gibbons was quoting a report which excluded vehicles driving into London. I think it is likely (I’m not aware of a survey that would conform this) that in Forest Hill, a lot of our traffic is from out of London - commuter traffic.

Since you’ve quoted me, I’ll just respond with text from the article I linked. They did study non-London residents. I excluded those in my back of fag packet maths because they’re probably the longer journeys. I was just looking at anything under 5km which is 2/3 of 3.7m

• London residents aged 16+ make 4.6m car driver trips and 1.4m car passenger trips on an average day, of which 3.7m are within London, with the remainder involving travel to and from London. Non-residents make around 1 million car journeys a day to, from or within London

The vast majority of the stats, in fact all but a couple of charts, are marked ‘residents only’.

I guess they either figure the “around 1m” non-residents either can’t be influenced or can’t easily be canvased for survey. At around 18% of journeys, that is a lot to write off.

Just a reminder it’s September 13th. I drove (yes really) over to Twickenham on the South Circular today and didn’t see any bus lanes converted yet. Still plenty of Mon-Sat or 7-10 4-7 lanes.

The crackdown will start on September 13

Just a heads up to keep an eye out on the signs and don’t get caught out! I guess it will take a while to flip them.