Face Masks

Have I missed it, or has the Govt not set any standards and the NHS not specified what kind of masks people should be wearing during the pandemic?

I think the rules just say something that covers your mouth and nose, so it could be a bandana or running buff.

Think about the consequences if the govt were to prescribe a particular kind of mask.

Experts would come out of the woodwork to claim they’d prescribed the wrong type.

Conspiracy nuts would claim that government special advisors had a stake in certain mask producing companies.

Hand wringing media would claim it’s an attack on the poor, as poor people cannot afford a triple-ply medical grade mask.

The govt would then be pressured to provide them for free. And then we’d get fraudsters amassing hundreds of free masks and selling them to people abroad.

Then the govt would reconsider and be accused of u-turns.

Etc etc.

It doesn’t say wear a face mask, it says wear a face covering. You could wear a sock if you chose to. It is to stop you spreading Covid, not prevent you from getting it. Hopefully if everyone wears a mask this will prevent its rise from getting any higher.

@anon5422159 you are trying to start a conspiracy about a conspiracy before it starts - that is very pro-active!

You know I’m right though!

In answer to the OP’s original question

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/face-coverings-when-to-wear-one-and-how-to-make-your-own/face-coverings-when-to-wear-one-and-how-to-make-your-own

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/face-coverings-when-to-wear-one-and-how-to-make-your-own/face-coverings-when-to-wear-one-and-how-to-make-your-own#how-to-wear-a-face-covering
If you read the section “How to wear a face covering” I would guess that 99% of people are wearing the masks incorrectly therefore having no protection from Covid 19.

That is about when to wear one and how to make one. I couldn’t see anything about which kind of mask is recommended or effective, or a standard of any kind which masks should comply with. A few months back the public were being asked not to acquire masks which might be required by NHS staff, but I’m looking for medical evidence-based guidance about which kind of mask is effective and available.

It is not to stop you getting Covid, it is to stop you SPREADING it.

https://www.hse.gov.uk/coronavirus/ppe-face-masks/face-coverings-and-face-masks.htm

It’s out there. Google is your friend

And the question remains, which of the many masks available is effective? Why isn’t this info on my GP’s website? Or even why isn’t my GP supplying me with an approved mask?

Because sometimes the government feels it doesn’t always need to hold our hands?

Effective at stopping YOU get covid? N95

For both questions the answer is because the NHS is not recommending the public wear them.

IMG_20200907_131455-013336×3024 3.42 MB

These are my masks. The white one is FFP3 and will stop something like 97% of all pathogens. The other is a surgical mask, it will stop something like 85%. I wear the blue one as it will stop me spreading Covid. The white one has a one way filter so does not stop my breath, cough or sneeze therefore affecting others.

My choice and I am happy to make it.

If not worn correctly it will not stop you SPREADING it.

The purpose of face masks in public is to stop you spreading the virus when you cough or exhale water droplets. for most cases a simple cloth mask made of tightly woven material worn over the mouth and nose will do.

Unless you are interacting closely and regularly with covid patients a FFP3 mask should not be required, but nothing stopping you wearing one if you feel the need I suppose.

0.00000298507462687% of the UK population died after testing positive for Covid19 yesterday.

Putting aside the questionable evidence of face-masks effectiveness, they are magnifying a needless fear of a virus that attacks an easily identifiable group of people whom can assess their own risk if they have capacity. They are part of project fear, which along with the MSM and the government, has terrified people into a state of paranoid hypochondria. Not wearing masks is setting a good example. To publicise the low risk rather than magnify it, in order to support the economy and all those who require its good health.

well said.

In 2018 156 people died when infected by HIV (not necessarily of AIDS) - that is 0.0000006449% a day, yet we still wear condoms! Don’t be silly

If you want to risk you health and life, go for it. Just don’t risk others while doing so.

“Project fear” - riiiight

Face masks are a politeness to stop spreading the virus especially if you don’t know you have it. it is a small imposition on our lives for, hopefully a limited time.

I am lucky to be in a very low risk category but my attitude is I do whatever is needed to keep people safe, stop spreading the virus and make people and workers more comfortable.

Your first sentence is a ‘he did the math’ way of saying 2 people died of covid yesterday. Your next sentence questions the effectiveness of masks.

Do you think people wearing masks may be connected to the very low death rate and they are therefore effective?

This neglects the point that covid can grow exponentially. We saw in March it can go from single figures to thousands of cases very quickly, all with the potential for hundreds of deaths a day and many thousands of cases of life long side effects and chronic conditions we don’t even fully understand yet. This also means the health service has to deprioritise a huge amount of other work with unknown long term negative impacts, unless we just leave thousands to die or suffer through serious ailment without professional care.

The only reason the ever increasing deaths stopped is because of the measures put in place. Suggesting that this isn’t something we should be concerned able is irresponsible, dangerous and frankly insulting to the healthcare professionals working themselves to the bone to mitigate the impact of people blithely disregarding government advice.

To who?

I take it you haven’t been personally affected by the death or serious illness of someone you know who has contracted Covid 19.

If masks do turn out to have been a waste of time; I’ll be perfectly fine knowing I did something useless in an attempt to reduce the risk to friends, family and strangers from a disease we’re still sussing out.

Feel free to use whichever statistics you want to convince yourself that selfish behaviour is excusable but don’t mistake callousness for lucidity.

I don’t agree with @TomAngel on masks, but I don’t think he’s being callous. There’s an economic cost to national hypochondria and it’s right to weigh all this up and ask awkward questions about things we all take for granted.

I don’t think we’re all being hypochondriacs, by the way. I think we’re right to wear masks, but I don’t have enough reliable data to prove my viewpoint. I respect anyone who disagrees if they’re able to prove it with data.

If someone can prove that wearing a mask damages the economy it might hold some water.

I can totally understand the economic argument when we’re talking about businesses being closed etc. - but travelling/shopping with a mask on? Not buying it.

I don’t think the burden of proof should lie with the “this might save some lives” side of the argument, until we do have the data available - regardless of what it might suggest - it’s a pretty straightforward decision.

Saying masks are a waste of time because there aren’t enough people dying comes pretty close to my definition of callous.

That’s not what he said, though. People die when an economy is damaged, for various reasons.

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10% of suicides are “job related“ and I suspect losing one’s livelihood would qualify as “job related”

Data shows that compulsory mask wearing has hurt businesses:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2020/08/18/face-masks-deter-supermarket-shoppers-says-kantar/amp/

We have to weigh up the risk posed by avoidable economic malaise, and the risk posed by allowing people to decide whether they wear a mask or not. It has to be a cold, rational decision. Because lives are at stake.

I made my first proper journey on the trains at rush hour back and forth to Stratford magstrates court today. I noticed a very high proportion of people wearing masks on the morning train to london bridge. These were tax payers on their way to work presumably. When in Stratford and in and around the station in the morning I should think it was a bout 80/20 wearing masks. In the magistrates court building I should think that it was about 80/20 not wearing masks or not wearing them properly such as under the chin which is the preferred way of wearing a mask for ‘crims’ On the way home on the train and around Stratford station it was as little as about 60/40 wearing masks. There is a strict system for getting into the station and the staff supported by police were being very vigilant. i noticed that the reaction of those people being asked to put their mask on was hostile and beligerent in several cases. They seemed to have masks but were unhappy about being asked to wear them. Among the beggars on the trains there was zero mask wearing. I would have thought that wearing a mask while begging on the train would be quite a good sales pitch. I may be wrong but it seems not to have occurred to any of the beggars today.

Given what I saw today, I am curious about why it is that London seems to have such a low rate of infection compared to many parts of the UK. Anyone got any views ?

The masks aren’t about stopping the spread of COVID because they have a miniscule impact in the grand scheme of things (vs say washing hands / not going to work when sick).

The masks are purely about making people “feel” safer and getting them back in to shops, transport and the workplace.

The data is out there now. We completely over reacted to COVID.

Oh boy!

Did we not have the same discussion on this not long ago?

Its the topic that never dies (unlike some poor folk this year, sadly)

No statistics to back this up but I think depression is also on the rise for young people due to the covid situation (sorry a bit out of topic!)

I think it is for me too. I have so had enough of this.

Granted, that’s a fair point, and would agree with what you said regarding a “nation of hypochondriacs” but I don’t think masks are the factor here - or at least a very insignificant one.

Just questioning that graphic, I notice it’s a US source - do we know if these figures are similar for the UK and if those figures are pre or post Coronavirus?

I don’t have a Telegraph subscription and don’t much fancy one so can’t read the article you’ve linked however just going by the headline I’ll admit there’s an argument there.
I’d question if there was any correlation with the number of shoppers who’s moved to online shopping since the pandemic begun though.

Frankly, if people are given the choice between wearing a mask or being able to purchase groceries I don’t think it can be a long term factor - food is somewhat of an essential need.

I fully agree with you but seems like we might be coming to different conclusions here.

The source is https://www.healthline.com/health/suicide-and-suicidal-behaviorm and since the original source is CDC, this is US data. I checked CDC’s site and a 2015 study puts the figure at 16% of all suicides being due to “job / financial problem.” I had a look around [and it’s a very upsetting thing to Google] but couldn’t immediately find any “cause” data for the UK.

I suspect if 10-16% of suicides in a Western economy are due to job-related issues during an average year, this proportion (and absolute number) would be much higher in a worst-case pandemic economic shock scenario.

While the annual suicide numbers would likely be much lower than the 40K+ who tragically died from Covid in its initial spike, we could find that an extended period of economic depression leads to many years of good, skilled people languishing in unemployment. The long-term effects of this would be horrible.

PS. please don’t get me wrong - I am pro-mask and pro-compulsory-mask-wearing. I just want to explore @TomAngel’s argument to make sure I’m not mistaken.

Just wish it would go away & everyone try to do their best to reduce spread, mask, distance, clean etc. Especially as last few days seems to be rising in new cases 2,900 and previous days been in 1000 figures. Is it because more testing is happening as people need to get tested before going abroad etc?

You can use similar arguments for almost anything. Seatbelts/airbags in cars are bad for automobile manufacturing industry because of costs, let’s not try to save lives. Safer roads are detrimental to recovery (not that I get that argument), lets not worry about running over kids or cyclists. On the flip side governments do mandate theseatbelts and lots of other things with safety standards and enforcement by law so it does seem incongruous to mandate masks with no N95 style ratings or CE style stamp.

I don’t think there has been time to be honest, right now it’s ‘any face covering’ helps reduce (not prevent) the spread so it’s a good thing.

Where I work 3 people have tested positive after returning from holiday in Greece and Croatia-all are under 30 one is sadly extremely ill with it (she is 24 and a smoker).
Luckily they returned after quarantine had been put in place for these countries so didn’t infect all of us.
I think the rise is mainly due to people going on holidays abroad especially young people then coming back and spreading it, and also because from my observation on a daily basis many people seem to think things are back to ‘normal’ and mask wearing is a nuisance and unesscarcary.
social distancing seems to have been forgotten by many and on a daily basis I’d say theres 20-30% of passengers on trains and tube who dont wear masks or wear them under their noses.

Notice how the news reports infections not deaths anymore. Because the deaths have been below the 5 year average since June. More people have been dying from influenza and pneumonia since June. Much to the media’s dismay there also seems to be no evidence at all of a second wave of deaths.

This is all a distraction from our ageing, diabetic, alcoholic and unhealthy population which are far greater issues. The forecasted burden on the NHS, aged care systems and the unfunded pension liabilities over the next few decades are absolutely diabolical.

BBC News reports the daily infections and deaths every day.

I just went to BBC and the headline is “cases” not deaths. Maybe I should have been more specific. All of the media fear mongering headlines now refer to cases instead of deaths.

Yeah fair to assume it’s probably in the same ballpark and a reasonable figure to use in lieu of other data.

The long terms effects are likely to be horrible regardless but I still don’t think it’s an argument to reduce a strong public health response. We’re seeing a spike in cases due to complacency/fatigue already, this is I suppose what @DevonishForester original point was - there’s not a lot of updated guidance even 6 months into the response.

Yeah that’s clear and appreciate you’re just exploring a bad take in good faith. Of course there’s merit to the “we can’t sacrifice the economy” argument but don’t think that’s exactly what was put forward

Cases are a leading indicator of future deaths. In a declining or stable pandemic many would consider them a more informative number with respect the future.