A friend of mine said they was on way home from Lewisham to Crofton Park.
The 122 Bus driver just let everyone on and didn’t care whatsoever basically the more the merrier. Hardly anyone wearing masks and all seats taken and people of all ages standing everywhere. They had to push to get off the bus the anxiety of this person turned into a panic attack after they got home. I personally haven’t seen them yet to chat properly and I can’t give a cuddle but how shocking and disgusting.
I had this happen to me before a month ago. I did make a complaint but hey it wasn’t taken seriously how lovely. Not all bus drivers are like that they don’t mess about and make it clear and firm without the drama and it’s respected. Sadly stagecoach didn’t seem to care neither did TFL. This spoils it for things and sends out the wrong message. Anyhow I wasn’t expecting royal service about it either I am no Queen a person who cares about my safety and others.
Reason for me speaking up:
Sadly I lost a friend of mine to COVID full of health and joy. His Wife couldn’t even say goodbye alongside Family or Friends it sucks. Then she died of it. No health issues at all either just a great sense of humour. I would love corona to do 1 alongside the bad attitudes happening these days by a majority. I really do praise the NHS for what they do and still do.
I really hope it doesn’t get worse again it’s already been something. Those selfish so and so’s god forbid nothing happens to them and have the cheek to preach.
We ain’t all in this together sadly.
This good person already cares for someone had to go Had no choice but to get bus there and back.
Social distancing is not happening lack of mindful attitudes arising. Shame you can’t say anything either these days without some people getting unnecessary violent or mouthy.
Some of us have already had enough of that crap and would love to zap that negativity away.
Now look…we are heading into Random lockdowns because of this very reason.
Anyhow rant and a Mix of waffle over…
Positive note please Stay stay safe and healthy whatever you do enjoy.
COVID-19 Rules are lacking on Public Transport
I hope your friend complained to tfl referencing the route and time.
Had a similar experience on a 185 back from Dulwich a few days ago. Stopped for everyone - way over 30 people onboard. Lots of masks worn around chins or not worn at all.
With 70 new cases in Lewisham in the past week it does make me worry 
Please take it seriously folks!
I got the overground yesterday to pop into the office for the first time in 6 months… there were quite a few people not wearing masks & when I came back at 2pm it was quite busy and there were loads of people not wearing masks or wearing them under their chins - I found it all quiet stressful. I was travelling fairly off peak both journeys and I’m really not keen to do it again… Maybe they do need to make on train announcements to remind people - people tended to take them off during their journey.
The van is in for a service and I’ve used the 202 from Lower Sydenham to Crystal Palace to get to work for the last two days and it’s been full on both days.
Thank you so much for your responses. My friend is ok slightly concerned with good reason about getting something. Staying hopeful the will be ok x I admit I am suffering with stress on this I love the hope people have when out enjoying life. However get so emotional and wound up by narrow minds. This is serious poop and deaths are slowly rising I personally don’t want anyone to suffer such a cruel death anyways let alone to this. I don’t get such blasé behaviour by sum but I suppose silly me there are those sort who just don’t give a crud regardless. You shouldn’t have to feel this people such a weight to carry I hope good comes your ways. 
This has been my daily experience since returning to work at the end of May
at least 20% of passengers not wearing masks at all or wearing them on chin or below their noses.
This has been the case on Overground, Jubilee line and Busses.
I wrote to TFL about it (mainly people being let through gates at underground not wearing masks) and got a platitude response-reassuring me that enforcement was in operation-well I commute 5 days a week into zone 1 using 2 trains each way and Ive seen zero enforcement either on trains or going through the barriers at the stations.
Ditto on local bus routes Zilch, nada.
Its a game of russian roulette on the trains trying to get the carriage where people are wearing masks and hoping at the next stop the unmasked person doesn’t get on and sit beside you.
even worse on the overground the other day the gentleman opposite me WAS wearing a mask correctly then dropped it to his chin to cough several times.
I’m scared now to ask people to wear a damn mask or wear it correctly in case I get hit or abuse.
Its deeply depressing as I have no option but to commute to work-the Canada water interchange Is as mad a scramble as ever with no social distancing on escalators
The Jubilee Line peak trains are almost as full as before often standing room only.
I and many like me do not have the option to WFH so every day we have to risk our health and those of our loved ones because The transport companies do NOT enforce the mandatory wearing of masks.
And there are many people who dont give a damn about others. 
Doesn’t bode well does it.
… and it seems for this unfortunate person, even moving away from someone who is not wearing a mask will end in tears.
I am looking forward to the bus replacement and train experience today. That or we just drive into London. Hopefully less chance of being beaten up in our car 
I see TfL’s website leads with “you must wear a mask or face a fine of up to £3200”… https://tfl.gov.uk/campaign/face-coverings
which seems almost laughable since they’re not enforcing in any way. I’m lucky I can work from home, but there is pressure from management that they’d like to see us in the office… But my other half (who is over 50 and has asthma…) has to go back in on Monday and I’m really worried… there does seem to be a negative nudge happening here too - if someone takes their mask off then others do too… I saw people remove them to drink coffee, make a (long) phone call (and then pick their nose), and several people take them off to do their make up… I walked towards the front of the Overground train as I was getting off - a handoff of people hadn’t got one on and nearly half the carriage had them below their chin… there’s definitely a ‘well he’s not wearing one… I’ll take mine off’ going on…
I think to expect the staff to ‘enforce’ mask wearing is maybe asking too much of them given the attitude of a significant minority of the travelling public. They are not police officers and I don’t think think it can be right that they be expected to put themselves in harms way day in day out. In my local co-op the staff just say nothing to anyone because they know what could happen. I think they are right. On minimum wage, it’s just not worth it is it ?
In an ideal world there would be a Britsh Transport Police constable on every bus or train, but we all know that cannot be.
Perhaps TFL could implement a temporary system on trains whereby one carriage on each train/tube is reserved for people who do not wear masks for medical reasons. In some countries there are women only carriages for example.
People who are not wearing masks because they are lazy/don’t care/don’t like them would hopefully not be so bold as to go into a seperate carriage reserved for people with medical reasons.
No help for buses of course…
I agree. It’s scary when you read cases of people being killed Or beaten up for asking someone to do the right thing.
I’ve only started using the tube in the last 10 days again, going from here to West London and back once, and to North London twice.
I would echo the lack of mask wearing though it did seem to vary by line and time of day. At the times I travelled teenagers and young adults were by far the predominant non-wearers of masks - I would say around 50% were not wearing masks (so in fairness 50% were). Maybe all the mask wearers had medical reasons they could not wear them, but it seemed unlikely.
Someone on on train I think must have taken a photo of some not wearing masks, as they then started saying take a photo of that person, they took a photo of us - I was waiting for it to kick-off but thankfully they got off the train.
I don’t agree with the above - station staff can ask people to wear masks, they can’t enforce it, that I accept, but they can ask. I do agree however that they need more support. Ultimately this need to be policed like they did in Spain etc but it won’t be and we will just go and pick on some random people walking in miles of wilderness somewhere in the countryside.
Spain has the Guarda Seville, we don’t sadly.
They could do some persistent announcements on trains and stations though… I don’t think we glowering at the woman opposite when she removed hers was enough!
On our flight last month many, many announcements were made. Some people still ignored them. Request from cabin crew also fell on deaf ears
Proving the point of a friend of mine who says #Some people are just a bit sh!t.
Sadly yes - I was on a flight last month. The cabin crew asked a woman a few rows ahead of me to put her mask on properly (it was being worn beard-style) before we took off. They asked again during the drinks (she wasn’t) and clean up service and then on the landing checks. When she got up to get her case down, it wasn’t on although she pulled it up to go down the aisle. I passed her in the terminal and sure enough it was off again. The mind boggles.
Tfl staff aren’t allowed to confront fare evaders let alone enforce the mask thing which is even harder.
If the virus was genuinely a threat you would not step foot on public transport. The masks scientifically only have a very small benefit. But I understand why non-compliance can make people anxious. But the point I’m trying to make is you shouldn’t feel that way because there’s no real reason to.
But don’t take my word for it. Do your own research or read one of the scientific papers on mask wesring and see how poor and irrelevant they are to a real life scenario. A high school knowledge of the scientific method will allow you to see how flawed they all are.
I’d expect most of the people writing these are University educated or have a PhD and there’s a consensus that wearing masks is beneficial. I’d trust them over high school science.
Indeed.
What do the worlds leading virologist know…
I think whatever fear there was, has been lost.
The amount of people not wearing masks, where there is no medical impediment or reason is quite depressing. Perhaps we should take note of other countries that deal with non compliance by sending people out in chemical suits to spray those with no mask ,and no exemption, with anti viral mixes.
Unfortunately, we reap what we sow- if there is another major lockdown and the economy goes even deeper into decline we only have ourself to blame - we can’t blame anyone other than ourselves.
If the threat is to others / society as a whole then one might. Humans are constantly making decisions regarding risk in their everyday lives (such as whether to walk slightly out of the way to a zebra crossing).
All the articles I have read making this argument miss the big picture - that small changes in risk at an individual level can have an impact on society as a whole. Additionally, I personally feel that wearing a mask is such a small inconvenience (compared to isolation, closed schools, lost jobs, restricted access to health service etc etc) that wearing one a ‘no-brainer’.
Do you mean challenge them to ask them for a ticket (they are the only people allowed to do this!) or force them to the ground and wait for the police to arrive? (Obviously above and beyond).
Police of course can enforce and I have seen them do it in Canada Water on one of my infrequent journeys
I wouldn’t expect a scientist to fully understand my job; they might get the basics but not the nuances. What I’ve seen, does suggest that masks work - more to protect others than myself. I’ll trust those with degrees and doctorates to translate and keep on top of the latest research and advice and translate.
Here’s Devi Sridhar (chair in global health at Edinburgh University who advises with Scottish Government and more widely within Sage). She’s given nuanced advice throughout over judging the level of personal risk while trying to stay as ‘normal’ as possible. This is her take today in a Guardian article.
The Virus IS genuinely a threat and myself and many others have no option but to use public transport to get to work (yes…there are people who are unable to work from home)
Whatever benefit the masks may or may not have I am taking every precaution to keep myself and others safe whilst commuting and that includes hand sanitising and mask wearing.
If everyone would take responsibility to limit the spread of this virus then more lives AND jobs would be saved.
I don’t think I’m going to convince or lower anyone’s anxiety levels over covid here. You can pull out an expert to support any point of view. There is no consensus on any of it.
If you think this virus is the deadly killer it was fear mongered as earlier this year, I just encourage you to do some of your own research starting with the official data on the ONS website. Reading The Guardian is not doing your own research.
And please don’t fall for the Government rhetoric designed to blame others in sociery.
I don’t think you are going to convince me, sorry. By the way Consensus implies general agreement, though not necessarily unanimity.
My son’s girlfriend is a Doctor at a large London hospital and she’s convinced me from first hand experience.
I think the story of the man being beaten simply for moving away is pretty shocking. Ok - the perpetrator felt offended that someone didn’t want to stand next to him. So the obvious solution was GBH? What is wrong with people? Things seem to have got a bit out of hand since the end of Lockdown 1.
Likewise a very good friend of ours is a senior nurse in a respiratory ward in a large hospital. I would take her knowledge over any internet based “advice” from an unknown source.
The Guardian article appears to be directly quoting the expert. Your comment suggests you think she was misquoted/misrepresented. Do you have more information on her views that might demonstrate why you think referring to that quote isn’t legitimate? I suspect it may not convince some but it would be interesting evidence, not least about the Guardian’s use of sources!
Hospitals are the perfect example. They have a procedure to follow, other PPE to compliment such as gloves, when they leave one environment they dispose of the PPE immediately, then wash their hands and get new PPE. In a hospital setting with the proper procedures PPE is important to stop spread of infections.
The way the public uses masks, diminishes the benefits. Touching your face, constantly adjusting the masks, masks don’t fit properly, using the same mask all day long etc. And when you look at the studies cited they are conducted in the perfect environment ignoring all these factors.
You can find plenty of nurses and doctors who think the response is disproportionate. Or that the Government shouldn’t take an authoritarian approach to it all. Mostly off the record because the NHS has cracked down on staff expressing the own opinions on the matter. Especially after staff went on social media showing how all the hospital wards were empty during the crisis and they had nothing to do and when staff exposed what a joke NHS Nightingale was.
You do know we wear masks not to protect ourselves, but others??
Yes. And the benefit of them is so miniscule that it shouldn’t be forced. And people shouldn’t go around with anxiety over it or look at their fellow human beings and think bad of them.
Like most things I’m not overly afraid of it happening to me (it did - it was fine). I’m more worried about my parents who aren’t getting any younger and I’m fully aware the journey to them would expose me (and consequently them) to something that is at best painful and worst death
And you can expose them during every single flu season. A harsh reality that many people weren’t aware of until now.
If you listen to Sweden’s head epidemiologist, countries that locked down or wear masks could be setting up worse conditions for the approaching winter. Because we don’t have enough herd immunity amongst young people to protect the vulnerable.
So we could actively be making things worse by taking such a dogmatic approach to all these measures.
But studies also say your antibody response reduces after 3 months and you can get it twice - combined that means that herd immunity isn’t likely to happen.
Of course this is a moot argument - we have laws - people should obey them and wear masks on public transport (at least it will protect me from bad breath!)
You didn’t get it did you.
Ordinarily, if you were trying to convince us that there really are little green men, or the earth was flat, I would roll my eyes and move on.
But you are not.
If you convince one person not to bother, and they contact Covid that’s on you. And I won’t let that happen.
And I can equally say you are killing people by not building up herd immunity during summer. Emotional arguments are pointless.
How could the earth be flat? The little green men had to orbit the globe before landing!
Wearing a mask seems like a small thing I personally can’t take issue with.
It’s like sneezing into a tissue or handkerchief - polite, simple and going some way to help stop the spread of disease.
I don’t think anyone took issue with the Catch It, Kill It, Bin It campaigns of the past. I’m not sure why this particular issue is so controversial.
I posted the Guardian article because it had been written by a scientist I respect - and who has provided a lot of nuanced articles over the last 6 months. She’s supported schools opening, supports outdoor activities and has generally suggested that people do need to take responsibility for the level of risk they are comfortable with. It’s not my only source of research. 
I do agree that for most people who catch it, it won’t impact them particularly. But there’s a sizeable minority who will be seriously ill and potentially have long-term side effects. The myocardial effects being seen in young fit people are alarming. And I wouldn’t want to see a complete lock down. And I agree that some people seem to have no concept of not touching/cleaning their mask.
I’d understand the ‘mask’ argument more if it was actually onerous. If they were asking me to disinfect my house and driveway every day, or live in a ventilated tent to reduce the risk, then fine. But putting a bit of fabric over my nose and mouth and washing it regularly doesn’t feel particularly challenging. And if doing it, can stop even a small fraction of people suffering, I’ll keep going.
That is what i find so odd, it really isn’t too difficult a thing to do. I have had various jobs where i have had, from time to time, to wear PPE - steep toe capped boots, gloves, stab proof vests, hard hats, masks etc… including having to wear a respirator mask in summer heat shovelling grain for hours on end. None of it is comfortable - wearing a piece of soft breathable cloth on my face while getting the bus or shopping really isn’t much of an imposition.
I agree with the commenters above, that masks are a trivial burden and we should wear them if advised by the experts.
There’s only one argument I can see for not wearing them (but I imagine this has been weighed up and ruled out):
By avoiding lockdown and masks during the summer months, we would allow the disease to spread evenly amongst the population (particularly the young) at a time when window ventilation and UV exposure would be high. These two factors would reduce the viral load, meaning that individual infections would be less catastrophic and easier to recover from. Once the virus has spread evenly throughout the population, particularly the young (and yes, people will die as a result), enough people will have developed immunity that the R number will be sub-1.0 and the virus will decline, saving lives in the winter period, where viral loads are higher and more deadly.
It was a triumph of leadership that led to Nightingale being created (one of the largest hospital facilities in the world, built in just nine days).
And a triumph of leadership - and the UK public’s adherence to guidelines - that led to this hospital being mostly unused.
Nightingale wasn’t a “joke” - it was a f**king triumph.
It isn’t that long ago - every bus had a conductor and every train had a guard.
almost none of these reduce the benefit to other people.
Are you implying you believe the exposure to covid and flu have similar levels of risk to elderly people? Because they don’t.
It’s possible this is true. It’s also possible that we might be doing better than Sweden. We won’t know for years and we have to make decisions now.
Just to follow on, this article in the New England Journal of Medicine (whilst not yet peer reviewed) https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMp2026913 was widely reported in the British Press a few days ago and highlights that wearing masks may help to promote herd immunity as it may expose you to lower doses to which you can then successfully make antibodies whilst remaining asymptomatic.
We are all adults here. Let’s keep to topic 
The military did their job and built a hospital. What people failed to realise was there was no staff to run it. You can’t conjure ICU physicians out of thin air.
It wasn’t lockdown that made it obsolete either. It was over estimating the severity of the virus and bad scientific modelling (Sweden didn’t need field hospitals).
I’m still of the opinion that lockdown causes more deaths, hardship and lasting economic/health damage than the virus. Will these tyrannical people forcing it on others (just like the mask) take responsibility for it in a years time??? Of course not!
I disagree, I think that’s exactly why it wasn’t needed. Look at the US - they’re going down the ‘don’t take muh freedoms’ route and they have 20% of the total global fatalities for 4% of the population. Clearly the ‘over estimating severity’ strategy isn’t working for them very well.
Every state in the US is like a different country. Taking overall data like that is the perfect example of presenting the same data in different way to prove a point.
If you look at new York state, who had harsh lockdown measures, they have a population of 20m with 32,000 deaths. Florida state 21m population only 13,000 deaths. Key difference being new York made the same care home mistake the UK did.
@Hollow - while this is possibly interesting debate, please note that this topic is about Covid-19 rules on public transport and we are getting a little wide of the mark (again!).
If you would like to discuss the wider approach to Covid and it’s implications, may I suggest we start a topic in #ethikos?
In looking at all these numbers, there’s an element of time alongside them. In your example above, the NY deaths were mostly early on when there was no guidance on wearing masks. Since mask wearing became mandatory, their death rate has dropped as exponentially as it rose. In the early days, there were also still debates on how best to treat serious cases. The US states with least mask mandates, have the highest rates - so you could present that as a good reason we should wear them.
I accept that for a few people, masks aren’t appropriate but I’ve yet to hear a good reason why a generally healthy individual shouldn’t.
This post was flagged and is temporarily hidden.
I have read a great deal on this topic and have doctors in the family. Everything I learn from these tells me we must distance ourselves from others if we cannot stay home, and that masks are the best protection if everyone follows the rules.
I don’t know what kind of malign intent someone must have to go on a public messageboard and encourage people to behave in ways that could kill themselves and others. But I certainly will not believe an anonymous person on a message board above my own well-honed ability to read and analyze information.
As I said above, there’s many who think these measures cause more harm than the virus itself.
I’m not encouraging people to not follow government policy. You are putting words in my mouth. I don’t even use public transport. I’m debating the disproportionate response of Government and giving a voice to the many people suffering greatly due to all these measures. The responses I’ve got above are exactly why people don’t speak up.
Many of you don’t understand the difference between correlation and causation. Yet you’re more than willing to call me an idiot or take emotional arguments against me.
I get it, this forum is one big echo chamber. Just like most online communities anyone with a differing view is quickly outed and leaves. Don’t worry I’ll probably be gone after this thread as well.
It would be a shame if this thread caused you to leave. I haven’t found your argument convincing but you have made it clearly.
I think this is one of the biggest problems in the world today - everyone has their own 24-7 amplifying echo chamber. I keep a friend on Facebook (someone I don’t know who I befriended because they share my name) who posts endless amounts of content (including fake news) on topics including QAnon, climate change, Trump, COVID, BLM. I almost defriended him because he posts so much, but then I thought it was a good idea to see what other people of differing views see on their Facebook.
There are a couple of posts above which made personal attacks on you, and I see one of them has already been flagged and collapsed. Like @Beige, I don’t agree with all your points, but I want to hear them. I hope you don’t leave the forum.
We live in an open society in which everyone should be able to voice their opinion. This is not a police state in which we can only voice the propaganda from the government. I don’t get offended by Hollow’s views although I do not agree. But that’s life. I tell my kids not everyone will agree or like them in school but it doesn’t mean we should not be courteous and polite to them. Anyway off topic again 
I got angry at news on gang grooming and senseless murders. There are enough bad news in this world as it is.
Does anybody know if there were delays on the overgrounds this morning? The train at 10:32 to Highbury&Islington (and the platform) was the busiest I’ve seen it since before lockdown. Everybody sat next to each other. I’ve asked around at people who get the train earlier than me and they don’t seem to think there were delays? Yesterday was also noticeably bad, but not to this extent. Don’t know how to explain it, especially when we’re on 360 deaths a day.
I got the overground back from Shoreditch on Tuesday afternoon at about 4.30pm and it was pretty empty - at least 2-3 empty seats between passengers.
Yeah usually it’s completely fine, even on my commute back from Shoreditch at 6.30
I got the train to London Bridge at 9am today, it and the station were pretty empty.
Phewh, hopefully I can assume that there were just some delayed/ cancelled trains then, and that that caused the build up of people on the platform/ train.
Also it is half term so more people off work and maybe making day trips in to town?
Also a v. good point!
Jubilee line was crocked today around 9am (train broken down at Bond Street) today so not sure if that might’ve had a knock on on the Overground getting into Canada Water.
Stuck on a busy Jubilee line train at a standstill was not an ideal start to the day.
Exactly this-Half term has meant more families coming into town.
My Jubilee line was standing room only at 10.30am (4 mins between trains due to earlier problem at Bond st)
Coming home I got the Jubilee line from Bond st at 9.20pm and that was busy with people who’d been out socialising (pre 10pm rush to get trains) annoyingly that was really busy with 1 in 3 people not wearing a mask or even a pretence of one (ie; as a chin strap)
extremely frustrating when people are losing jobs and businesses and their lives and yet still there is a section of the population that clearly wants to ignore all this and behave as if the rules dont apply to them.
I did get a tweet from TFL in the end, saying that there had been delays after all. Thank god, thought I was gonna have to make my commute later still!
I think we got lucky today as I was surprised how quick it was to get to South Kensington. Although we had to change trains 3x we got to South Ken station within 45 min. The journey was actually very comfortable as it wasn’t packed and similarly to what everyone had said, there were a handful of people without their masks on or were not wearing their masks properly. I just made sure I did not touch any surfaces or touch my face. We also made sure we washed our hands once we got into the science museum. Trains were more packed on way home and my son insisted on sitting next to another person, which wasn’t ideal but I just made sure I sprayed lots of hand sanitiser. I don’t expect cars to stop at zebra crossing, so I don’t expect people to follow the rules with masks, however I do love our trains since I can’t drive. It could always be better and if I compare our trains to what other countries have, I still say we have good trains but that’s my little opinion. Sorry I might be out of topic here again…