New Southern Railways Weekday Timetable from Monday 6th September

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As a result of these changes once again we are losing almost all of the few direct weekday services to and from Victoria via Crystal Palace that were only reinstated in May! This also means that we lose the additional morning and evening peak services to and from London Bridge that the Victoria service provided. Saturday services are unaffected.

Forest Hill to London Bridge (Weekdays)
The 0558, 0628, 0658, 0728 and 0758, 1658, 1728, 1758, 1828, 1858 and 1928 departures will no longer operate.
Therefore except for the additional 0535, 0828 and 0858 departures from Forest Hill there will only be a half-hourly service to London Bridge at 13 and 43 minutes past each hour to London Bridge from 0613 to 2313.

Forest Hill to Victoria (Weekdays)
No direct services at all except for 2312 to Victoria, 2342 and 0012 to Streatham Hill

London Bridge - Forest Hill (Weekdays)
The 0628, 0658, 0728, 0758, 0828, 0858, 0928, 1728, 1758, 1828, 1858, 1928 and 1958 will no longer operate. There will only be a half-hourly service at 10 and 40 minutes past each hour from 0610 to 2340 plus 2328, 2358 and 0035

Victoria - Forest Hill (Weekdays)
Only 0750 and 0820

Just as everyone who was wfh is trying to go back to the office! Sigh. Tbh I think they’ve wanted to him the FOH-VIC service for a while and this is a perfect excuse!

I know - I couldn’t believe they’ve taken away all but 2 of the services they’d only brought back in May yet kept the full Saturday service. I was away for a few days last week and it was lovely coming back from Hampshire on Saturday with luggage and being able to just change once at Clapham Junction. But doing that journey in either direction on a Saturday is unusual so I guess it’ll be back to LO and the Jubilee line to Waterloo again next time!

That’s so disappointing - it is a quicker and nicer way in to work than squeezing on to the Jubilee Line at Canada Water.

I know we are lucky to have the Overground but two trains an hour in to central London is not really good enough for Zone 3 London.

Definitely. It was my main route when I was in the office since the office is in Victoria. And it was a popular service so I don’t know why they think it isn’t necessary. Time to get my bike fixed I think!!

I’m gonna be getting a motorbike soon if this carries on. Nothing serious, just a medium-sized road bike because the firm I’m subbing to is only working on the big RC frames in central London at the moment and driving in and out is out of the question.

I got caught out this morning and took the Overground to Canada Water… Only to find out that access to the Jubilee line from said station was cordoned off so I had to get back on the Overground up to Shadwell, took the DLR into Bank and then down to Borough. Does anyone know if the Jubilee line is stopping at Canada Water tomorrow?

They often used to restrict access to the Jubilee line at Canada Water due overcrowding. It’s a horrible interchange even without the risk of Covid.

Were they random, unannounced restrictions or was it a week here and a week there with prior warning on the platform at Forest Hill?

This is madness !
Its going to lead to more overcrowding on the overground when everyone is returning to work and school.
Is there any way we can protest about this??
I’m sick of the daily struggle getting to and from work when I dont exactly live in the sticks!

yes I have to deal with that horrendous interchange if I dont get the Southern service.
Personally I avoid the Overground when possible and stick to southern to connect to the Jubilee line-Guess I’ll have to get into work extra early and home later than I’d like now

Never Prior warning I’ve been on Overground and they’ve announced at Surrey Quays the train wont be stopping at Canada water due to overcrowding.
Which left a very torturous journey to Shadwell changing to DLR then changing at Bank to Central line and being late for work as a result

I think complaints to Southern, our MP and the Major are worth doing making the point that the removal of the London Bridge - Victoria train removes a valuable commuting route into London Victoria (especially if the interchange at Crystal Palace between the Overground and other southern services into Victoria is not step free and lengthy; that 2 trains into London Bridge in rush hour is not sufficient (that is an hour gap if one goes out of service); and that the impact of this is more overcrowding on the Overground especially at the busy Canada Water intersection. Which all seems very counter-intuitive when stress is being made on making users of public transport to feel safe and to encourage a return to the workplace.

I will do this, but unfortunately it will take time to have any impact. Crofton Park Station users ran a lengthy campaign on their “Cinderella Line” - with 2 trains per hour into Blackfriars. They did get improvements…eventually.

But what is the excuse or reasoning? The service is well used.

It’s definitely well used, but at what time(s)? I always get the 06:26 service out of Sydenham and the carriage I board is usually occupied by about five passengers after leaving New Cross Gate, whereas the Overground service I caught a few minutes before I’d usually board my Southern departure had a lot more bums on seats than I’m accustomed to.

Do you or anyone have contact details for our local MP?
Ditto who to contact at Southern and how on earth to contact the Mayor
I’m sick and tired of us being held to ransom by train companies.
dont they realise people who live here DO work in central London and the train service we get is appalling considering we are in a London postcode and zone 3.
I’m fuming over this!

This is what I have found out - but if others have better contacts then do share!

Forest Hill is in West Lewisham and Penge - ellie.reeves.mp@parliament.uk
Honor Oak is in Lewisham and Deptford - vicky.foxcroft.mp@parliament.uk

London Mayor - mayor@london.gov.uk

Southern Rail - it looks to be an online form: Contact us | Southern Railway. Or send old fashioned mail to:

Govia Thameslink Railway
PO Box 10240
Ashby-De-La-Zouch
LE65 9EB

Last time I emailed Vicky about our train services (back in March I think) the response came from Paul Codd, Senior Stakeholder Manager, Govia Thameslink Railway.
It seems pretty impossible to find an email address for him, but maybe addressing snail mail to actually him might be a good start.

ellie.reeves.mp@parliament.uk
You need to include your address as the convention is that an MP may only deal with their own constituents.

Phone: 020 7219 2589
Phone: 020 7219 2668 local office
Ellie Reeves, MP
House of Commons
London
SW1A 0AA

The annoying thing is that we had 6 trains per hour into London Bridge before we got the Overground. In the evening trains also left Charing Cross for Forest Hill.

Govia Thameslink Railway (GTR) complaints contacts

• Email Charles Horton (CEO) on charles.horton@gtrailway.com.
• Call Customer Services on 0345 026 4700.
• Email Customer Services - London Area on enquiries@londontravelwatch.org.uk.
• Email Customer Services - Thameslink on customerservices@thameslinkrailway.com.

If you email Ellie Reeves, I think she will forward your email to the railway company for their comments and let you have their reply.

I am surprised that the interchange at Canada Water is not permitted.
I think that shows a major issue with this particular station. And will put increased pressure on other stations.

‘COVID’ is the reason given as to why the timetable is changing in the information from their website included in the OP to this thread. But I’m not quite sure in what way covid us actually responsible. And the outcome is going to be many people who previously used the service crowding onto an already crowded overground.

I think using the options we have to protest is great but I am not confident of an outcome given that we lost the direct Charing Cross service some years ago despite a very well orchestrated and vociferous campaign by the Forest Hill Society.

Maybe Southern just hates the people of Forest Hill

That interchange was never properly designed for the overground so far as I can see. It’s always been a nightmare. Every time I go there I think that as it’s a new station why not have more escalators! Although I am sure someone more expert than I may be able to point to a reasonable reason why it’s not possible to have two up and two down.

They should turn some trains round at Canada Water. Then the trains can pull into the other platform, which gives much more room for passengers.

I think they did not realise how many passengers would use the Overground. remember the trains originally had only four carriages!

See this question:-
Can you explain why TfL indicated to Southwark Council that the Canada Water Masterplan should go ahead, despite being a scheme that will add 20-30,000 additional commuters into the area and approximately 3,500 new residents,” she said.

“With tube and Overground services already operating at capacity and predicted to continue to do so by 2031, how will these additional passengers be accommodated?”

Answer:-
But Mayor Khan said on Monday a £33m package for transport improvements as part of the 53-acre Masterplan would reduce the impact of overcrowding at Canada Water and nearby.

I think you are probably right but not sure anyone with any common sense ever looked at the plan rather than someone with a spreadsheet model. I remember commenting on the old forum along with many others that the interchange with a single escalator was bound to be a bottleneck. And made little sense since the other side was built with two routes down.

Canada Water is also popular with SE Londoners with commutets going east as you don’t have to pay zone 1 fares.

When I used it, it was standing only from gipsy hill on morning rush hour services. So pretty well used overall.

There is a major issue here, with this dangerously overcrowded station, and I think it may not be sufficiently understood by decision-makers because it’s likely they do not have the data on passenger numbers. Most passengers changing trains at Canada Water do not scan their cards, and so their journey via embarkation/disembarkation at Canada Water is not recorded.

But we don’t fully have the Overground, as the late-running on Fridays and Weekends does not extend to Forest Hill!

The argument Southern will have is that Forest Hill and Honor Oak Park are well served by the Overground anyway which takes the bulk of passengers rather than the Southern trains.

The interchange at Canada Water was designed for when the old London Underground East London Line was in operation which only operated between New Cross/New Cross Gate and Whitechapel (Shoreditch during peaks and Sunday market hours), so it’s no surprise that with the growth of the Overground which now covers a wider area of South London that it’s become the interchange hub for our line, rather than London Bridge.

What TfL will be hoping is that the congestion at Canada Water will be relieved when the Elizabeth line opens next spring which will have a lot more capacity at Whitechapel to handle our passenger traffic going into the West End and gives Canary Wharf commuters a third choice of station in addition to Shadwell, although I’d expect most to still use the Jubilee line to go there.

Thank you.
It appears that since they introduced the Overground they decided that anyone living in this neck of the woods has to rely on the very poorly designed interchange at Canada Water to get into Central London.
When we moved here the 176 used to run to Oxford Circus now it stops at Tottenham Court road.
I’ve just had a week off work and I am quite frankly dreading the commute into town tomorrow.
At 61 and unable to ride a bicycle I dont intend to learn by cycling to and from the west end every day!

I can remember when the number 12 bus used to come to Forest Hill.

Nightmare. I used the direct train in the mornings to Clapham Junction and changed there. Now essentially an additional train, an additional 10-15 minutes each way and more chances of delays and cancellations.

And those trains between London Bridge and Forest Hill were timetabled to take between 12 and 15 minutes for the journey, if I remember correctly.

I internally swore quite rudely when I read the top of this thread. London Bridge is where I commute to, and making it a half hourly service at the peak commute times is just insane. I’ve not been commuting for the obvious reason for the past 20 months, but now many people are being encouraged to spend more time in the office.

I don’t know what time you would normally commute to London Bridge but there are 5 trains between 0813 and 0913 as Southern are still running the Victoria - London Bridge services which depart Forest Hill at 0828 and 0858. But outside of this time and on the return there will only be a half hourly service.

Those “feel” a bit late for me, but maybe I’ll have to get into negotiations with my boss about those staggered commute times that come up now and again as a way to reduce train congestion (and help social distancing)…!

Crofton Park services have been cut from this week too! See below from their latest newsletter:

You might be able to get the Overground to New Cross Gate and then get a mainline train to London Bridge.
I remember when about 50% of mainline train passengers used to change to the East London Line at New Cross Gate!

I got the 8.43am to London Bridge this morning and it was pretty empty, however I suspect there are a fair few last minute days off being taken this week!

@HannahM Hopefully you may find this time remains pretty empty as there are still 5 Southern trains between 0813 and 0913 as that time period includes the 2 Southern Victoria - London Bridge services which depart Forest Hill at 0828 and 0858 and haven’t been cut!

Sherwood is correct - Before London Overground existed quite a lot of fast trains that didn’t stop at Forest Hill used to stop at New Cross Gate to enable connections to the East London line but looking at National Rail’s website that is no longer the case. Looking at the trains from New Cross Gate to London Bridge between 7 and 9.30 am and returning between 5 and 7pm the only trains are the ones that stop at Forest Hill anyway!

I’d already posted Southern’s explanation on the original post but here it is again:

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If you click on the screenshot a larger copy will display

But that argument couldn’t be applied for passengers wanting to travel in the opposite direction to Clapham Junction (for connections onto South Western services or Southern’s MIlton Keynes service) or Victoria. Yes there are other routes you can take but where’s the thought for people with mobility issues who often pick a route based on which one is the easiest for them rather than just the quickest.

Hi All, long time reader of the forum (and wish my first post wasn’t to complain about Southern!)

This news is really bad news and timing for me as I accepted a new job in Surrey a month ago and I was relying on the connection from FH/Sydenham to Clapham, to then get me onto a South Western connecting service.

Sadly Google Maps and TFL are now advising that I my quickest connections would now be to go from Penge East to Victoria, then a Southern train back to Clapham - that sounds crazy to me when we’ve always had the Southern loop from LB to Victoria.

One thing I would say about the evening southern services from Victoria to FH is that it was so unreliable. You would regularly get kicked off the train at Crystal Palace as the train would run fast to LB - this would happen even if the train was on time, this would be tiring after working in London all day.

Really don’t understand how SE London areas in Zones 2 and 3, with no tube alternatives, are served so badly. The overground would not be able to cope if we all used it, to me it’s so busy and horrible with beggars I avoid it like the plague.

It’s a bit counter intuative but it might be quicker to get the Overground to Surrey Quays and change on to the Clapham Junction bound Overground there.

Ahh brilliant - that means I have a bit more choice about when to get in to work if I want to continue avoiding the Jubilee line.

Another alternative I’ve used to get to Clapham Junction is to get the 176 or 185 to Denmark Hill and then the Overground from there. It may work out slightly quicker than changing at Surrey Quays depending on the traffic.

It does rather seem that the overall direction of the railways is to concentrate on longer commuter routes and cut those pesky shorter routes like London Bridge to Victoria or Crofton Park to Blackfriars and beyond.

Essentially we have been given the Overground and the Canada Water interchange. If that does not suit, it seems you can “Like it or lump it”. Not great.

As a fairly regular traveller to destinations served by South Western pre all the Covid timetable changes I always used the Victoria service to connect at Clapham Junction. However in the last 18 months when the Victoria service hasn’t been running I’ve been going to Waterloo via Canada Water instead. As I don’t travel at peak times I’ve found it almost as easy as the interchange at Canada Water is always quick.

I think Thameslink was responsible for some of that, which is as you say, using capacity for longer routes at the expense of pesky shorter routes.

I’m just glad that there are peak services between Forest Hill and East Croydon again (on Southern)… for now anyway.

The inner London commuter routes don’t make them money simply. The fares in London are done by the Association of Train Operating Companies (ATOC) and are divvied up between all of the London TOCs, which has been the case since Oyster PAYG was introduced on National Rail services, where as a passenger paying for a ticket to Brighton will see more of the fare revenue go to GTR rather than to all the others.

Alas why Thameslink are first to remove the Wimbledon Loop services when there are problems, while New Cross Gate lost their fast services due to the increase in Thameslink services using those slots instead.

It’s worth noting that from 2023, Southern (and the other GTR brands) will be part of Great British Railways, which will use the same concession format as London Overground where Great British Railways (a DfT organisation) will set the fares and timetables on National Rail services and branding, while a private company which could still be GTR will operate the trains to and from London Bridge.

London Overground itself will still be operated by TfL under a concession agreement along with Forest Hill and Honor Oak Park stations.

This is the case. Much more money to be made from long distance season tickets than local commutes. If TfL was in charge of local services then we wouldn’t have this mess.

I have written to ellie.reeves.mp@parliament.uk expressing my personal concern about this. It has made it much less likely for me to start going back to the office on a regular basis if I can’t rely on regular train services via London Bridge.

The other annoying thing is that our TFL overground service is also unreliable, with lots of “engineering” works for no apparent reason. This mostly effects off-peak times. e.g. No London Overground services on our line all weekend / Southern Railways operating

Probably someone at TFL figured that our area is well served by national rail, so no problem in closing the line down for an entire weekend.

Pre-covid when the loop line was up the spout I too used this route to get to Richmond i.e FH- Waterloo- Richmond rather than FH- Clapham J- Richmond. Main issue I had with it is the extra expense, because you’re going into zone 1 it adds 1.50-2 quid on the cost of the journey…

That’s an excellent idea Michael. I’d consider a letter to mayor@london.gov.uk as Sadiq Khan is also leading a drive for workers to return to their (central) London offices.

I won’t take credit for the idea, that was @Sherwood above - New Southern Railways Weekday Timetable from Monday 6th September - #18 by Sherwood

I’m not sure about emailing Sadiq Khan but it may be worth others email Len Duvall or other London-wide assembly members with an interest in transport.

Sorry Troy - I’d forgotten there are cheaper fares going via Clapham Junction and therefore for many there is an cost implication of going into Zone 1!

In my defence one of the few positives of getting older is that I’m eligible to have a 60+ Oyster card which gives free travel after 9am within almost all London Travelzones.

If there was still a choice of services I would prefer to use the Victoria service to Clapham Junction when travelling to destinations on the South Western network.

No need to apologise Chris.
They say you should never wish your life away but one thing I’m looking forward to in a “few” years is getting my 60+ Oyster card, although knowing my luck to pay for all the covid shenigans it’ll become a 67+ Oyster card just as I become eligible!!

The 60+ Oyster card only came into existence when the age criteria for the Freedom Pass which also includes free bus travel in England was changed from 60 to the state pension age. So as it’s only a stop gap until you’re eligible for the Freedom Pass and the current state pension age is already 66 then unless the 60+ Oyster is scrapped altogether hopefully you’ll be ok!

Or what about Perry Vale councillor and London Assembly member Sakina Sheikh:

https://councilmeetings.lewisham.gov.uk/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=3015

https://www.london.gov.uk/people/assembly/sakina-sheikh

Huh. Just been caught out now. Getting a train back after work and there is no Forest Hill train until 6.40. The 6.28 has been disappeared. Not happy!

I ran to catch the 1810 for that reason.

Yeah it’s bonkers that there aren’t more back during peak rush hour. The same as they are still every 15 minutes during the early rush hour. If we had them at 28 and 58 past 5 and 6 it would be better.

At least you have the option Michael.
I had to opt out of late shifts at work (luckily my manager agreed to it) because of the difficulty of getting trains home after 10.45pm (I would have been leaving work in the west end at 10.30pm so minimum 14 mins to get to canada water).
The overcrowding at Canada water means I try and avoid it because it gives me anxiety attacks.
I worked through every lockdown and during those was the only time I took the chance of getting the overground and facing that interchange.
the only thing I dislike about living here is the dependence on our iffy train service.

Fran - With the new weekday timetable from London Bridge to Forest Hill there are only 2 trains an hour at 10 and 40 past each hour from 0610 to 2140. Then it goes to 4 trains an hour at 10, 28, 40 and 58 past each hour from 2210 to 2358 and finally 0035.

All these details were in my original post or you can access the full timetables on Southerns’s website:
Southern - Revised-timetable (our route is timetable G)

Does anyone know if this timetable is a temporary change or is it likely this is the new normal for services to London Bridge for the foreseeable (2022 and beyond)? My partner and I are looking to move to the area but for both of us, the easier route into the office would be easier to use Southern to LB (especially reading people’s nightmare tales of Canada Water interchange)

Hi @jd21 - Welcome.

National Rail timetables always used to be published twice a year in May and December although from memory until the pandemic started and rail usage dropped the Southern services from Forest Hill and Honor Oak Park to London Bridge and back hadn’t changed for several years.

However during the pandemic there have been more frequent changes and the last change on September 6th is shown on Southern’s website as “until further notice”. In addition in answer to the question “Will services change in the future?” they advised “We are keeping the current situation under weekly review and will update you if any further changes will be made”

So hopefully the current situation is not going to be permanent and we will eventually see the reinstatement of the weekday London Bridge - Victoria service which would provide the 2 trains per hour that are currently missing from the weekday timetable!

From what I can gather from various friends in the industry, the London Victoria-London Bridge trains used 377s (the nicer ones) pretty much most of the time (whether due to limitations in certain platforms whatnot don’t know). Southern have decided that utilising the 377s to lengthen every other service for COVID and doing away with the Victoria-London Bridge service as a way to achieve this is the way forward. Victoria-LBG were nearly always formed of 10 car trains. The 377s could only ever run in up to 5 coaches at once, but in multiple they can form up to 12 cars. So when a VIC-LBG train would be 10 cars formed of a 3-3-4 formation, they can easily uncouple that and add them to 3 seperate trains. They don’t have the functionality to do that with the older 455s, which is why when they’re on East Croydon - LBG (as they are currently), they’re either 4 or 8 cars.

It’s incredibly frustrating as Southern are only seeing the bigger picture and not how they’re affecting our corridor with their reductions. Can’t wait until they do away with the 455s, especially as they don’t have the acceleration/deceleration to fit it with the current timetable. (LO 378s on the 01/31 departure from West Croydon almost ALWAYS follow a Southern 455 from East Croydon 3 minutes behind - end up delayed because they’re so slow).

Speaking as a complete layman, it feels like Southern want to put their best trains on the longer routes and they really are not overly worried about the London Bridge / Victoria route. From their viewpoint a) we have the Overground and b) one day the inner London train routes may be taken over by TfL.

I actually understand this from a Southern helicopter view, only trouble is, its a “sh*t sandwich” for us.

All we can do I suppose is write to MPs, Major etc and hope that has some effect. One day…

Its a great area to live in on many counts BUT I really wouldn’t hold my breath regarding the southern service improving in the foreseeable future.
We’ve lived here 11 years and I find the trains have become steadily busier in that time even prior to the current cuts in the LB service

Pre-overground services, I remember the trains to London Bridge being rammed and it being hard to get on them at times - those at Brockley however had honed their skills in the art, working as a group to find space where it was thought none might exist, whilst those in the middle of the cariage luxuriated in their space without the nose to armpit sardine experienced by those by the door.

Then the overground came, which seemed to alleviate the trains into London Bridge as most people converted to these new airconditioned machines, which also happended to run reliably.

However I have always wondered if the population around stations / in SE23 has gone up, has the demographic in terms of number of people commuting in changed? As the council urge people to move away from car use, to cycle, walk and use public transport whilst building new homes, I am not sure how this fits in with an already overvrowded transport system (not to mention other services like GPs, schools (though it appears possibly no longer an issue for primary schools now).

No doubt the Overground has made Forest Hill a more desirable place for people to live. It has also opened up quicker routes for existing residents.

I got an explanation of the current situation from Southern Railways via Ellie Reeves MP, who wrote to them on my behalf (and no doubt other constituents too). I’m not including the whole reply but these parts are the most useful:

From Southern Railways:

Unfortunately, we are facing some severe impacts on our operation at the moment due to the long term effects of coronavirus which has led to some difficult decisions relating to our timetable.

…

Our experience during the first two waves in the UK was absence peaking at around 13%. The 16 May timetable was introduced at a point of absence at 12%.

What we found in late July was absence rapidly escalating to 20% in line with the national trend of infections and isolations of the third wave. There comes a point when the level of “gaps” exceeds the ability of our Control team to replan services on the day, and it was this trend that led to the decision to introduce the 26 July emergency timetable. At the time, the expectation was that absence would escalate further.

Thankfully, that did not happen, but while the third wave in the UK has not resulted in anywhere near the same level of sickness given the success of the UK’s vaccination programme, it has in some terms been far more disruptive, as it impacts a “base” that has not fully recovered from the first two waves. As of the 10th September, absence of qualified crew is 16%. We are making progress, but unfortunately the indirect impacts of coronavirus require time to fix - whether clearing medical restrictions, or how quickly we can pair drivers with driver instructors.

Our forecast for crew availability improving takes us to around 12-13% unavailable by December. This will provide enough resiliency to reintroduce more services, and please assure your constituent that services within inner London are a high priority for us to reintroduce.

I hope that will provide some level of hope that our services to Victoria and the complete 4 trains per hour between Forest Hill and London Bridge, are returned in December - assuming we don’t have a fourth wave this winter.

Reasonably positive

Oh quite! I never meant it was a good or valid excuse . My feeling is they are somehow using the ‘re-evaluation post-COVID’ as an excuse when it really isn’t an excuse - they’ve just wanted to cut the service for a while.

I’m cycling at the moment because of this but that may not be feasible all the time. Likewise, going to London Bridge and walking to the office would be another option but is longer and also not always going to be suitable given they’ve done this just as we are getting to winter.

The overground provision is the same - same number of trains, same capacity. I assume the routes to LB are now halved with the removal of the VIC-LB service so be interesting to know how Southern thinks it will work when the people who would have gone to Victoria and the people who would have been on the two cut services to London Bridge are not on the remaining southern services and the already impossibly crowded overground. Canada Water interchange has never been fit for purpose in my view and will be worse now.
Given the amount of disruption this is going to cause for us and, I presume for HOP and brockley residents, I think we are at least owed a proper reason and an explanation of how impact on commuters was considered. That service during peak travel was always crowded going into town, from stations after CYP - there was clearly a lot of demand after that point in the journey so the idea that there are enough alternatives after that point so we can all change at cyp doesn’t really make sense to me.

I’m lucky that where I am in FH does mean I can use the two Catford stations relatively easily, which is what I did when the LB works were going on. But FH is nearer and I’d rather use that really.

What a pain.