I can see no reason whatsoever for that thread being closed. Sure, it was getting a bit sparky, but nothing like in the good (!!!) old days. This is an important debate about road safety. I don’t take an overly-enthusiastic pro-car standpoint (though I am a driver) but I want to challenge some of @clausy’s points. But a robust discussion has been closed down. Why? No lost cats involved?
Why is the bike high-viz thread closed?
I agree. Most people on bikes are also people who drive cars. It’s not two separate sides but working out a relationship between the two. There are arguments for riders wearing hi-viz and also against. For the sake of safety on our roads we should be encouraging open discussion which challenges everybody’s prior perceptions.
Isn’t that what a forum is about?
I think @ForestHull was quite right to close the thread. The OP was entirely reasonable and expressing a genuine and I would have thought universal concern.
It became an unpleasant tit for tat/them and us thread.
I came to this forum from The Other Place, which had become a very angry forum, where I and others were afraid to stick our heads above the parapet. By comparison, this forum is a safe place and I hope it stays that way.
Oh and remember the old ad? Wear something white in the night. The only criticism I remember of that was that it had to be changed to “Wear something bright in the night”. I don’t think anyone accused it of being anti pedestrian/cyclist.
I assumed the point of bumping the How to: Mute a topic thread was so that you could opt out of threads you find ‘tiring’. I wasn’t aware of anything getting flagged, usually the mods drop in a friendly hint or a warning.
If anything we could try to make it more SE23 related in terms of where people feel unsafe as pedestrians or cyclists, or where drivers feel they find it harder to spot vulnerable users so we can see if we can address it somehow.
Mike did say on the thread why it was closed. It was starting to get repetitive and nudging towards the them/us dynamic. From past experience, those types of threads usually spiral downwards and start to take more mod time; so we closed it.
@clausy makes a great point on using ‘Mute a topic’ but sadly that isn’t an option that the moderation team can really exercise.
If there’s genuinely a list of particular black spots for drivers/cyclists in the area, then sure, we can have a thread on that. But if it just ends up being more of ‘pavement cycling/hi vis/helmets / lights’ discussion that could apply anywhere, then it too will likely end up being short-lived.
The problem with the mute a topic option is that it feels a bit like closing one’s eyes and the bogeyman goes away. (I’m not calling anyone a bogeyman, I hasten to add).
I think the point is that it was closed out of the blue. Normally there’s some kind of ‘slow mode’ or posts get flagged which would indicate some kind of issue, or one would expect some kind of moderation guidance e.g. please keep it relevant to SE23. This time it just got closed.
As to the reasons given (‘The original post in this topic was fair, moderate and well liked’) I wonder if I posted a parallel thread almost word for word substituing a few words weather that would also be considered ‘moderate’ or would I be one of those activist dangerous idealist cyclists…
There are lots of posts on this site from motorists - I want to highlight a cyclist’s perspective.
As I cycled round the South Circular in the dark, there was a motorist who was driving in a black car who was weaving between the lanes of traffic. The car did not have its lights on and it was really hard to see it was there.
We all have to share the roads, so it makes sense that everyone can be seen and so be safe. Please motorists - cover your car in hi-viz or paint it fluorescent so you can be seen in the dark. Thank you! Oh and please stop getting distracted by your mobile phones.
I doubt there are any drivers who would feel the need to jump in to defend a car driver at night who is not using their lights.
I think at the end of the day we can all agree wearing bright clothing makes you easier to see and would make using the road a bit safer. But as a pedestrian I mostly wear dark clothing when crossing the road because COS and the like don’t sell Hi-viz and Hi-viz isn’t cool.
OK… guys… this thread was on why the other one was closed. And if the same old point just re-appear on this thread, here’s the warning that this one will be closed too.
Firm but fair, we can ask no more of the moderators of this great site. I’m sure I speak for everyone when I say keep up the good work.
I just didn’t think that moderator action was required. There wasn’t anything personal or abusive, as I recall.
I can’t speak for the mods, but in my past experience, you can get a feel for a thread and act accordingly. I think it’s fair to say they have acted on the side of caution, but in the past moderators have been accused of being too slow to act so now act more proactively where they think it’s necessary.
Of course you don’t know what you don’t know where the thread would end, but sometimes you might just look at it and think it’s not going to get better in terms of adding great debate, and I suspect that is where they were at, which I’d tend to agreee with.
…and sometimes, like most people, they just want to get on with enjoyable things in life!
There wasn’t anything abusive or personal. But the thread was going in circles and we’ve seen ones like that become argumentative in the past so to save our time, we preempted it to save ourselves time and hassle in what’s a busy week for us all.
With respect, I’ve now spent more time today than I really want to on this thread and I’ve got better things to do.
Are we now in the realms of ‘Minority Report’ where prosecutions are made before crimes are committed???
That seems fair, unlike the next point that you are going to make.
@AndyS and @Michael can you both stop please. I appreciate and value both of you. Can you both agree to disagree please. Thank you XOXO for both and an extra kiss for both xx I don’t even want to read the thread because I don’t want to be involved in something that may effect a friendly relationship I have.
@Michael @AndyS sorry for speaking my mind, you both know I always do. Can this convo be forgotten xx and just come to a sensible conclusion of forget it if not possible, makes sense x
@AndyS if I have said anything to offend you please accept my sincere apologies and the offer of a beer.
If i haven’t offended you then please accept an offer of a beer and an insult of your choosing.
Pauline, I’ve DM’d you twice but I can’t find any trace of them. Did you get my messages? Thanks!!
The original topic was open for 4 days - there was plenty of time for people to contribute, so I’m sorry if anyone felt they had missed the opportunity to comment.
I feel I’m really humouring you here @AndyS, by spending time trying to again explain again why the topic was closed, but if you go back and read the original post on “Plea from a driver” it really didn’t invite the later comments and discussion that followed. Several people commented on the thread about the deteriorating nature of the responses:
Some complained there was no warning of the closure, but really it’s all in the comments from other members, some of which I’ve quoted above. And my own judgement was that after some good comments, things start to move on and the original post was at risk of getting brow-beaten by repetitive arguments from a few who were moving fairly wide of the actual posted topic, and well away from anything local or relevant to the actual ‘plea from a driver’.
I’d really like everyone to have more of an equal voice here, and I think someone else posted how they came here as they hoped it was a friendlier and more welcoming space than other forums, While a bit of a bun fight or joking around all par for the course, the “Plea from a driver” topic is not a good example of this and despite some constructive and very well meaning posts, showed no sign of improvement.
So, as it says in the FAQ:
Is it not time to close this topic? Everything useful has been said.
Moderation is a thankless task and is never right for everybody, but we know what bad moderation looks like after years of it on various SE23 forums. It is good that people are on the look out for bad moderation and that we are able to challenge moderators, but it shouldn’t need to escalate every time a thread is closed.
What a shame my would-be effort to defuse the car vs bike saga was shot down before I could even start. Some of us aren’t here all day every day so the fact you’re closing it down after four days claiming there was plenty of opportunity kind of sticks in the craw.
But fine. That’s it, I’ve nothing else to say on this. Apart from the fact I’m pretty annoyed you’re making me out to be the culprit here.
Or, as someone once said “Forum moderators need to be vigilant against cancel culture. Offense is too often weaponised online.”
I would add that the critique is seeing that thread as a conflict between two sides. I think a count of contributors would show they were BOTH drivers and riders and were inherently looking for bringing both aspects together.
I, for one, didn’t find the comments of those mostly dedicated to one aspect or the other discourteous and we have to live or die with the consequences. I think it clear that not all participnts thought it tiresome or circular.
But it is done. We are bound to accept Mods decisions and thankful we allowed some feedback. I hope they find it useful.
We need to de- escalate this situation before it goes too far, need I remind anyone this is how the 2pac and Biggie “beef” started…
Remind me. Was Biggie the cyclist?
I read the wikipedia page on this and I still have no idea what it’s about.
Yes. It’s a little known fact and although his sized belied it Biggie was a diehard cyclist but he refused to wear hi- Viz or put lights on his bike when he cycled at night (he found cycling very therapeutic and come up with some of his most famous raps when in the saddle).
2Pac was enraged at his thoughtlessness, I believe his exact words to Biggie was ’ word up homie light up or be lit up’ and we all know the rest.
Could we organise one of these?
“Riders will experience a slow cruise around the city streets on Bikes equipped with LED Lights as we travel to one of our select destinations such as Discovery Green, Third Ward, Midtown or The Museum District. The music playlist will be provided by the Guide as we bike around town.”
OK guys. I’m going to close this down now.
If there are new aspects to consider at a local level, people are welcome to start a new thread and, fingers crossed, we can try to keep it on track.