What does this say? The Pavement - shops at top of Perry Vale

This small area of Forest Hill looks quite Gothic, does anyone know the history of this triangle and what is the date/name?

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Where is it? Do you know the address?

Do you live in Forest Hill?

I lived on upper Kirkdale until very recently.

It is the corner of the triangle above the Pantry.

Isn’t that SE26?

Yup. Upper Kirkdale is in Sydenham, but Forest Hill political ward.

Could it be “The Pavement”? Paragraph 2.3 of this Design and Access Statement suggests so.

DC_20_119590-DESIGN___ACCESS_STATEMENT-952584.pdf (586.8 KB)

The developer lifted that paragraph from the Lewisham Locally Listed Buildings list, so the Conservation Officers Natasha Peach or Joanna Ecclestone may be able to tell you more.

LewishamLocalList2014-2.pdf (294.1 KB)

Here’s a fuller picture:

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I still can’t figure out what it says…

I’ll take my camera along with the zoom lens when I go out for my walk this afternoon and see if I can make sense of what it says.

I don’t strictly live in Forest Hill (I’m on the border), is that okay?

EDIT: I might not be able to post a photo because I’ve recently upgraded my fruit branded laptop to the latest model which doesn’t have a USB port. I’ve yet to buy an adapter.

Totally fine - please note the site FAQ at https://se23.life/faq#not-from-around-ere

@marymck was spot on, it says ‘The Pavement’. I’m going to attempt to download the photo on my work laptop and will post it if I am successful.

Thanks @ForestHull I’m in a right mood this morning so didn’t understand the importance of where we live for this post. I’ve been out to clear my head so I will behave now.

You’re very welcome! And thank you for the opportunity to dust off my big zoom lens.

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‘The Pavement’ is probably the name the developer gave to the row of shops when they were built. On Google Street View the name ‘Wesbourne Terrace’ is visible on the stone balustrade above the shops on the other side of the road at the end of Perry Vale, above what is (or was) Angels and the tattoo parlour.

If anyone is wondering where we’re talking about, it’s the shops on the Perry Vale side of Forest Hill station. The building with ‘The Pavement’ lettering is the shop on the corner of Waldram Place and Perry Vale, now occupied by The Pantry.

You’re probably right. I’ve never really taken much notice of how that block is set-up. This morning I took this post as an opportunity to pop out for a wander up the road. It could be that the ‘The Pavement’ was the name for the group of shops. Similar to the shopping malls of today.

Hopefully the original poster will get what he needs.

Also visible on Street View, a sign saying ‘The Terrace’ above 1 Stanstead Road (the cafe on the corner). And the building next door still has pineapple finials.

I’ve mucked about with the contrast of the photo in an attempt to make the wording more legible. Not a great result unfortunately.

I’ve amped up every setting in my photo editing software. Some of the letters have eroded but even from my original photo it clearly says “The Pavement” and as mentioned in my reply before the photo. Especially given the information that Mary provided.

‘The’ is very clear. You can just make out the ‘P’; ‘AV’ is clear; the ‘EM’ has eroded away, the 'ENT" is very clear. Thus ‘THE PAVEMENT’

The row of shops and flats above were originally known as The Pavement. Looking at Kelly’s directory from that period -the post office directory - in several parts of SE London there were groups of shops known collectively as The Pavement or The Parade. Including in Brockley Road and Brownhill Road. Its tempting to wander the area looking for similar signs now…I wonder if when they were built, there may have been no hard pavement, and that installing one might have been a part of the development.

For example, in the site now occupied by The Pantry was outfitters Francis William Allen, listed here at what appears to be two Pavement addresses in the 1896 directory.

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…(edit) and here are the retail occupants of 1-7 Pavement listed in 1896.

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FW Allen, Outfitters, located at 1 The Pavement (which later became 14 Perry Vale), where the Pantry now is , used to advertise in Cycling magazines that it stocked the most advanced form of cellular cycling clothing, the lycra of its time I assume…This ad from 1899.

Aetex as was?

https://www.gracesguide.co.uk/index.php?title=Cellular_Clothing_Co&redirect=no

Yes indeed - it’s Aertex , logo/patent mentioned in the ad.

Thanks for posting these @ThorNogson

I note with great interest Mrs J Stuck, the ladies outfitters. My Great Grandaunt was a seamstress living in Waldenshaw Road at the time, working for a local ladies outfitters. I wonder if this was the one.

That’s a great picture - it’s there any more information on it, any idea when it was taken?

1900?

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3 posts were split to a new topic Posts moved from “What does this say, the pavement shops…” to prevent going off topic to an old argument not really relevant here.

I think 1920’s. From Kelly’s Directories there doesn’t appear to have been a fishmongers on that stretch on the right until at least 1916 ish.

The shop on the left is I think John Aggett, watchmaker, watch repairer and jeweller. He is shown at that address as far back as 1891 (at 1 The Facade, Pavement which I think later became 28 Perry Vale) so if he has been established 35 yrs in the photo it sort of tallies with the photo being 1925 ish.

On the far corner, the one occupied by The Pantry today, it appears to be a Corral & Co office. But we know FW Allen was still trading there in 1918, so assume it changed to Corrals sometime after that and dates the photo later too.

There’s a tram in Waldram Park Road, but I’m not sure that helps with dates.

John Aggett watchmaker,watch repairer and jeweller was at 10 Perry Vale until 1970/72 when the business closed and the shop became the White Goods department of Mercury TV.

This really is a great pic. So many shops, so much business happening. I love the horse and cart. Which makes me think about logistics (I love those nerdy factory programmes on the TV) - how did they stock the shops? I assume they were bringing things in by railway to the station and then the ‘last mile’ is by horse and cart? How did the fishmonger get fresh fish?

Probably from Billingsgate Fish Market. I walked through it about 60 years ago. The porters were unloading fish from ships moored on the Thames.

Right. But - did they get the train to Billingsgate at 3am - or was there a distributor who sent fish by rail to Forest Hill and all down the line. I’m genuinely fascinated by old school logistics. No phones, it’s all pre-planned. Who picked it up off the train, or did they horse and cart to the market and back?

Great pic. I wonder why Waldram Park Road / Park Road had “park” in the name. Was there a park nearby?

This 1872 map shows Park Road (now Waldram Park Road) leading to Park Road Terrace, then Brockley Lane and Stanstead Road as we progress around the current South Circular. At the east end of Park Road there is a park- can’t quite make it out, but maybe it says Telegraph Park - behind where the Railway Telegraph is?

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An interesting piece by Steve Grindlay on the Railway Telegraph’s website:

Trains got goods and fresh produce from remote locations to London’s massive markets. There were horses and carts everywhere around the markets though if you got out to the suburbs it would be quiet. Plenty of space once you’d cleared London Bridge and Southwark. Pics like this one ( from The Queen’s London, 1896) show commercial traffic in huge volumes. Forest Hill only about an hour away. Share regular delivery runs with other traders in your area?

Also, salesmen would call to promote and take your orders, eg for that very smart cycling attire mentioned above. Then the manufacturer/ wholesaler could organise local delivery to your shop.

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No doubt bicycles made a large portion of those deliveries. I’d love to see more of these in use in the area. I think Aga’s and Beetroot and Beans have used them.

Love those old pics Tim

A friend of mine who knows his railways also sent me this:

On logistics and distribution using rail.
Fresh fish and milk were daily features on station drop-offs.
I am pretty sure that in the pix of bomb damage to Forest Hill station I recall seeing milk cans sitting on the platform even then.
Station staff knew what to expect to arrive and returned empties to a schedule.
In Scotland as a child I recall going on hols to a fishing port in NE Scotland.
Extended family members would give my dad half-a-crown which would cover the cost of purchasing a box of kippers plus delivery by rail to our home town station for pick-up within a day or so.
Nary a phone-call or website involved.

I noticed a very stylish cyclist in this pic from the thread above- probably just picked up some Aertex kit from FW Allen and now on her way to Finch’s?

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Some years back, when we were filming in Northumberland, a friend and colleague posted some Crasker kippers to our unit manager back in London. They left Crasker but never reached him. So if anyone in those sprauncy new flats at TV Centre notices a strange smell …

Nellie Wombat (who I don’t know, so don’t know if that’s her real name - fab if so) has a brilliant Pinterest with some really great pictures of south London. Including this one:

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Thank you Ms Wombat!

One of my grandfathers used to go salmon fishing every autumn, would send us a fish in a woven basket on the the overnight train.

I found it on twitter @Love_SE4. He has some great old photos of local areas.