Smart Benches in Forest Hill - what do you think?

Hi all,
I have recently been asked about installing some Wifi benches in Forest Hill. These are benches with a tree like structure that will have some solar panels (to provide power) and useful place for advertising. One would be able to access free wifi, charge their mobile or even donate to a charity (later stages). As the council is not paying for the benches the advertising is the payoff.

The first place identified was in front of the pool. I am afraid I said no to that idea as I thought that introduction of advertising in that space would really harm what seems lovely approach to the pool. I am not completely apposed to the idea in other places but would like to hear the views of people on this forum (Even if it is in front of the pool)

Please see more info on
http://senergy.rs/2017/02/the-worlds-first-network-of-smart-benches-launch-in-london/?lang=en

I am happy to hear all comments, for and against. Would you use them? What do you like or don’t like? Could you think of the place where they may come in useful? There are other 5 spots on Dartmouth Road that have been suggested which I will be happy to revel if they come up in the comments.

@anon5422159 you may need to do a pol at a later stage.

What about just before the start of the pool slope leading to the side entrance where the path on the right hand side (when approaching) leads to the estate & the kids play park behind it. That might work.

Or at one of the new or existing bus stops on D Rd.

My other suggestion would be somewhere either near Sydenham Girls or my shop as quite often the School kids run out of charge on their phones & have to contact their parents sometimes to say they’re now on their way home after swimming, after a School activity etc. Qn quite a few occasions I’ve let kids charge their phone at the shop so that their parents don’t panic or get worried when they don’t get the call they’re expecting.

What about on the stretch of Perry Vale between the car park and the underpass there is a bench there but it would be useful and in plain sight for any anti vandal problems. Or Mayow park?

I would love to have this type of the bench on the bus stop at Inglemere road, bus route 75 towards Croydon. There is a bus stop but not covered. People often sit on the bit of fencing pipe because the bus runs late or does not turn up at all. I have seen benches like that, they look nice, wide and stylish. I would say yes to one on this particular bus stop.

Hi @MajaHilton a concern of mine would be privacy, what sort of guarantee would residents get that the benches would not be tracking the devices and gathering data? or if they were to gather data how that might be used?

There were smart bins installed a couple of years ago in the city of London that were described as having similar features that not long after being installed had to be disabled due to privacy concerns.

Also if the benches are providing public WiFi what measures will be put in place to protect people who might be less aware to the security risks of using public WiFi spots?

Why would you be concerned about data tracking on a free public service, what sort of data would you expect to be gathered?

People use public hotspots and unsecured networks all the time - coffee shops, restaurants, bars, etc etc. It’s their personal responsibility to make sure they are aware of the risks of using an unsecured network.

iPhones pop up a permission dialog before allowing a connected USB device to access any data:

On Android it looks as if you can also secure any USB connections:

Tracking devices over wifi is a possibility, although this shouldn’t reveal any personal data in its own right. TfL did this for a while on the London Underground:

I Ann more excited about the possibility of a smart bench rather than the wifi😃

To answer the question of what data would I expect them to track, I am not really sure without knowing how the service is expected to work. But they could be able to obtain some people’s device identifiers just as people pass the bench and people may be unaware this is happening and obviously they now know the location of that device.

Now if the free WiFi requires you to give details to use this service. They can likely tie that device ID to an entity (a person). So all of this starts to add up espcailly if they are buying and selling data from other services/companies. This can gives companies a good idea about your habits/interests/locations etc etc.

So to loop back the reason I ask is to better understand what they might gather, if anything, and if they do how they might use it. If they do will it be clear to users that this is happening?

When it comes to security and privacy I am more concerned about things like if you are required to create an account to use the WiFi how will that data be transferred and stored? And as I mentioned what can be done to keep people safe whilst using it, this could be technical solutions and/or it could be helping to educate.

I am just generally interested in the technical shifts we are seeing happen around us and the benefits and risks/costs (data is big business) they come with.

Smart benches are already in operation in other places, so I suspect the issues of security and privacy have been raised before. It might be worth looking to see if the answers to your questions are already out there somewhere.

I’m not a fan of the idea. Given the proliferation of wifi in local shops/cafes, along with cheap data I can’t quite understand the need for more connectivity. Aren’t we connected enough? Do we need to be more connected?

That aside, I’m also not a fan of the benches as shown in the article. I can’t quite see how these designs will fit in with the vernacular of the area. I would also like to see some seating that also has some back support. Are these available in other designs/styles?

I agree with you Starman, and I value civic space free of advertising.

Shop/cafe/hotspot wifi can often be sketchy or slow. What’s the downside of having an extra option? Aside from the radiation, which is easily avoided:

?

I guess you’re right. I’d much rather have non office workers cluttering up these benches for good wifi rather than taking up seats in cafes. Especially in the rain.

Personally I would rather site on a bench and people watch than have my face in a phone.

I think there is a good case for these benches in city centres and near transport hubs, where people might genuinely benefit from being able to get online and also charge their phones. As someone about to send a child off backpacking, I find such benches quite reassuring. I’m not sure it’s something there is a pressing need for in Forest Hill, though.

Wow I did not realise Forest Hill had a population of Luddites. Perhaps we should build a ducking stool to torment the challengers to our new Amish community.

I’m far from being a Luddite. We are a family of early adopters, which means we have every iteration of each developing technology you can imagine. It’s quite the archive. Or possibly junk.

My concerns about a bench like this would be for the medium to long term impact on our streetscape. Would it be maintained? What if the company behind it folds? Or the advertisers pull out? Is it something that would enhance our streetscape? Sydenham Road had a problem recently when their Legible London map boards were vandalised and it turned out no one in the council had budgeted for repairs.

Thanks all for the responses so far.

I do like the idea of tech benches as a concept, (18year old inside me), but then my older self thinks it is not really for me, and I really don’t like the advertising aspect of it. It can look great in some places, and equally terrible in others, so placement is also an issue. It seems the older we are the less important is the wifi element and more important having somewhere to sit (by the bus stop etc) and aesthetics of Public realm.

I also like the element of tracking local pollution as a record to identify local pollution problems. Being solar powered is another plus as they can be moved to locations without electricity cables nearby.

Advertising bit is real downer on me as I do care what young minds are exposed just by walking on the local streets, simply because I am a parent. Currently they are sponsored by Cancer Research so it is difficult argue with the cause. As the Local authority would give permission for these to be put we can have conditions attached. Therefore there is already a list of not acceptable advertising agreed with the supplier of the benches
· Alcohol
· Adult
· Black magic and astrology
· Cosmetic procedures
· Dating
· Drugs
· Fast Food
· Gambling
· Hate/discrimination
· Lingerie
· No win, no claim
· Nudity
· Payday lenders
· Political
· Pornography
· Ringtones and downloadables
· Sexuality
· Tobacco
· Weapons
· Weight loss
· Religious

Does existence of such a list make it more acceptable to have in some places these benches. Could you think of another category that should be added to such a list?

Vaping products, pawnbroking and any money lending business that profits from those who struggles with money charging them hundreds percents of interest…i feel very sorry for those people and do not wish anyone to be a victim of those lending sharks.

Sorry. For me no. Beyond my earlier lyddite response I can’t see these making a positive contribution to our streetscape.

Looks like an appropriate list, with so many abnegaters should be easy to log in and charge can’t wait.

I think some people may be missing the potential; if they could give local businesses preference for the advert space and then had options to reinvest the revenue from the advertising back into the local community, then why would we want to give up this opportunity?

On the other side though, I also am not sure they would fit in with the style of the area but swings and roundabouts I suppose

Be a great place for phone muggers to hang out.

I’m not sure such an opportunity exists within the current scheme. The advertising seems to be a single brand across all the benches London-wide. If advertising is making the production and maintenance of the benches possible, rather than just ameliorating some of the costs, I can’t imagine local traders would be able to either afford the rates or commit to what are probably long-term contracts.

I’d be interested to see how the pilot went, with regard to collecting donations via the contactless reader. Seems a bit like cracking a walnut with a hammer to me, but maybe it is actually an effective fundraiser.

What happens to them if this company goes out of business. I assume they will diligently repair them and upgrade the tech as they become less smart, but if this new venture doesn’t work and they go bust what happens? Do we end up with another useless bit of technology (like the ‘call point’) that no one can afford to repair or remove?

My god, why dont we just give up, doesnt fit the street scene? Muggers and firms going broke!! Perhaps a communal gallows is the answer so we can just end it all.
No body mentioned drug dealers using it for business or perhaps streetwalkers touting for business ! Come on must be some more negativity we can dispense in case we get dragged into the 21st Century.

To be honest, this feels more like old tech to me. I think it will get outdated very quickly. Not all objections are because we’re still dragging our knuckles on the ground.

I’m far from a Luddite, and I also don’t think these are a great idea. They’re the sort of thing which quickly becomes obsolete and I fear they’ll be a magnet for vandalism. They would make sense in the middle of Lewisham, rather than the proposed quieter locations here.

Why are people keen to jump on board the first technology bandwagon that comes there way? There are alternatives and will be other choices. BT announced last year their new plans for nextgen ICT solutions for public locations.

Even these I don’t get. If you have a phone you probably have a data plan. If you need to use data over an extended period are you likely to do this on a bench on the side of the road? Charging points are great but you can buy small chargers to shove in a pocket for next to nothing. And you can donate to almost every charity by text message these days.

What positive change would this add to our Forest Hill community?

Okay I give up, can we have a horse trough then? Somewhere to hitch the wagon perhaps next to the stocks.

Bet you bought Google glasses.

Out of interest, what is the cost of a “smart” bench compared to a regular one?

My opinion on for or against for what it’s worth.

Against - My set in ways as an almost 50yr old probably won’t like the change to the streetscape.

For - Absolutely definitely, as I feel these would benefit our younger generation & I could probably guarantee that most would agree with this - though please take into account none of these School kids will have a say or voice on here - Only us fuddy duddies!

So I don’t think our suggestions are fair or accurate on here & suggest a survey is shared with local Schools for kids (Primary & Secondary) to respond & give opinions to make it fair

I saw this in Lewisham it has a solar panel right? I don’t think its a bad idea but about becoming outdated, possibly. Its a bit of fun. There is a lot of wifi already in fh tho, horniman museum and the cloud as well as fh library.

No went straight for bio engineered implants!

I think they look pretty pointless - the world is moving more and more towards all inclusive smartphone data so few people will need wifi urgently whilst on the street. And my bet is that very quickly these will become obsolete - as well as non functioning and an eyesore when they stop being maintained.

I’m not low tech at all by the way

I know from experience with local kids that these will be very beneficial to the llocal School kids. I think they should be asked their opinions aswell as us adults & should be taken into account.

Pauline - in what way would they be beneficial to local kids? If they are local would they need somewhere on the street to charge their phones? Would they use the wifi rather than their data? I have two older teenagers, I can’t imagine them using these at all. But that’s just my experience and I’d be interested to hear from you what we oldies here are missing!

My two pence. As maybe one of the younger members of the community I see two sides.
Firstly, my initial thoughts were great, that sounds really good! However I see some serious limitations.

1. Technology expires. What do we do when the benches are out of dated? Will there be easy upgrades available?
2. What charging points would be on the benches? Would I need a specific phone to use it?
3. Who would be in charge of maintaining the wifi signal?
4. It could make people a target for mugging / attacks
5. Would it quickly turn into the latest anti social hang out.
6. What limitations on user connectivity would there be with the wifi?

Thoughts on location…
Outside the pool would actually be great in my location. Think of the children who’ve been to swimming lessons who can’t contact parents / waiting for parents. It would also be essentially supervised by pool staff if any youngsters were to get into trouble if that makes sense. The other location where it would be useful in my view would be the train station. CityMapper is a wonderful thing when we get one of our famous sink holes… would be good to be able to use it guaranteed.

I said upthread on many occasions kids have had to charge their phone at mine to let their parents know they are on their way home. To me this is an important link with kids telling Mum or Dad they are on their way home from swimming , activities etc. Yes I will always allow this, but what about the day I am closed & kids & parents can’t communicate. It will always be that day something goes wrong that worries me.

Ah, okay, that’s interesting. If you weren’t there kindly offering your charging services do you think they might save their batteries if they knew they needed to phone home? Just a thought!

I don’t think so, I think they all get caught up in their free text messages (which I think a lot of parents include in their kids packages to make sure they always have contact) to each other which then drains their battery & they don’t think about it until they should be calling their parents to say they are on their way home & then start to panic about not getting in contact with them. Hence why I don’t mind any of them charging their phone to call their parents, as I would hope someone would let mine do the same so I wouldn’t be worried if they were running a bit late as long as they told me.

Well, as someone who has had their kids mugged for their phones, I think charging them in your shop is definitely safer than this bench set up. If they couldn’t charge their phones and were running late and couldn’t borrow a friend’s phone to text me, I’d rather they just came home, not stopped at a public charging point.

I think you are very kind looking out for the kids, Pauline, but you are also enabling them to not take the consequences of not thinking ahead. And I know that makes me sound ridiculously old- fashioned!

Really sad to hear that happened to your kids Rachael & definitely not old fashioned on your part.

I’m just a big softie where the kids are concerned & think they are entitled to as much of a voice as the adults have.

I very much think all should be equal regardless of age, colour, religion etc.

These things are amazing and getting so cheap. Parents concerned about their kids smart phones getting flat from too much snapchat shoukd put one in their bags.

I got my son one of these type things for £1 from Poundland last week

Thanks to all who have contributed. This will certainly not happen if people don’t see benefit and don’t want it.

I will talk to some school kids and I will visit the bench in Lewisham during this summer.

Some questions on the thread are valid, so I will ask powers that be to address them. (Vandalism, maintenance, security, technology obsolescence and cost)

Apologies for drip feeding information but below are other suggested destinations. Some of the places could do with a bench so having extra bits on it may not harm.

IMG_0119.JPG4160×2340 1.59 MB

Not really sure how it fits with other benches. Clutter comes to mind if in front of the pool.

And other proposed sites

I will feed in other locations suggested, but that will be decision for Perry Vale ward (Mayow Park, inglamere rd)

Lastly, we can include this as an item on the next assembly (Saturday 23rd September) and have views of people who have not seen it here.

I’m all for it if location works @MajaHilton though not necessarily what I suggested. I think the kids would love this as opposed to us oldies deciding on this & lets face it, they are our future generations so we should listen to them

I think School kids should be able to voice opinions on this, so appreciate your comment here.

@MajaHilton. The article in the first post, and then your subsequent picture a few posts ago show two different benches. Are there design choices? The first seem more appropriate to a modern town centre like Lewisham. IMHO the second one isn’t that bad from a design perspective.

@anon5422159 I want to create a ndw topic linked from this one. How do I do that?

Please see instructions here. It’s not obvious unfortunately - I’ll see if I can put a better UI proposal to the developers.

I believe its just the two pics are from a different perspective?

Pic 1.

Pic 2

image.jpg436×603 167 KB

So no.

Oh sorry I had looked at all the various pics on the web for the Strawberry benches and they all looked the same a sort of plank combo?

Hi @starman yes there are design choices. Those two. I can ask for more photos if needed.

I did visit Lewisham bench and over 30 min I observed it (totally random). There were 4 people sitting on it at all times. Two men were heavily into their phones (one typing at times, one having an earpiece possibly listening to music). One lady was charging her phone while playing a game. Another man just was simply using it as a bench. Others sat down for 5 min and went. None of them could be described as teenagers(one was a small child). What was interesting is that people were happy in sharing the space while a nearby bench was empty. I spoke to the lady (who was charging her phone) and she thought the bench was great. She has heard about additional pocket chargers, but was not that keen on them. She was unaware of wifi of who the sponsor was. I did not ask about air quality monitoring? I will go again.

Vandalism was an issue as charge leads were not present. Also the bench design meant that the pavement under it is not easily swept( Second design seems not to have that problem)

This sounds like a great idea. A couple of my friends from the Far East have commented on how ridiculously far behind London is with public wifi access.

Free wifi in shops / cafes simply does not count, as you have to be a paying customer (which teenagers and students usually can’t afford), and don’t work half the time anyway.

We should also be building more public seating areas encouraging people to stop and relax, rather than always rushing between the shops, the station and our homes.

I am the council officer working with Strawberry Energy on the smart benches.

It has been very interesting to see the views set out here and I welcome the various suggestions. Cllr Hilton identified a number of questions raised and I will attempt to answer them - apologies in advance if I miss anything out, feel free to come back to me.

Data security / misuse
The chargers on the benches only provide power and cannot carry data.
The bench collects data on the number and duration of charges but no personal data is collected that can relate to this.

To access the wifi users are asked to provide some personal data including name, email and age range. Strawberry Energy’s website sets out the terms under which this data is collected. This commits Strawberry Energy to the use of data in line with the Data Protection Act 1998 and that they will not sell or share personally identifiable information with third parties.

What happens if the benches become obsolete?

This is some information Strawberry Energy has given me:
“The Smart Benches are conceived as upgradable smart platforms. We can easily upgrade it with new features and technologies and can change the hardware to respond to changing technology or demand from consumers.”

How are the benches maintained. And what happens if the funder goes bankrupt?

The benches are maintained for free under the terms of a wayleave agreement covering 10 years that grants permission for the benches to be installed on Council land.

If the company goes bankrupt then there is a risk that future maintenance or removal of the benches falls to the Council. The only no-risk approach is not to have any benches.

What is the value of the benches?

This is commercially confidential, but my understanding is that similar designs have been purchased for around £6,000.

Is there a problem cleaning underneath the benches?

Strawberry Energy acknowledge that there have been occasions when the existing benches have had debris trapped underneath them and are taking steps to amend their regular maintenance to address this. They note that when their maintenance crew clean the bench they also clean the surrounding area and will take particular attention to the space beneath the benches.

Security

A number of people have raised concerns that the benches could become targets for phone thefts. Given the widespread use of mobile devices in public places the installation of benches may not increase crimes of this type, although I recognise that they could become a focus for this. We are monitoring the use of the existing benches and thankfully so far no incidents have been reported. Again the only no-risk approach is not to have any benches.

I hope this covers points that people have raised and sorry for the lengthy post. As Cllr Hilton has said Strawberry Energy has proposed a number of locations in Forest Hill. These are currently being reviewed by service teams in the council to identify any potential issues and we will then seek wider views by placing a notice in each location and asking local groups such as the local assembly for input. Happy to flag up on here when we are moving forward on this.

As I am not too sure whether people automatically see posts they have expressed a view on I thought it might be helpful if I tag people who have commented on the issues above (apologies if this is not helpful).
@RachaelDunlop @Pauline @starman @Wynell @anon5422159 @Londondrz @MajaHilton

Also forgive my selection of username, I can assure you my powers are very limited.

@thepowersthatbe thanks for that thorough and informative update It’s excellent to see the council engaging with local residents like this.

From my PoV, my concerns are addressed by your points.

Looking forward to further updates on the smart bench rollout in SE23.

A post was split to a new topic: Parklets with permission via PM from @kat.standlake.point

I was at Forest Hill Pool this week, and thinking that the environment around the front entrance - shrubbery and benches - was very nice. I don’t think enabling people to use WiFi there would improve the situation. There is WiFi in the Library and in many cafes, and the internet is available via mobile phones … nice to have some spaces without electronic paraphernalia.

Maybe the next innovation will be cafes and other venues that are able to block phone and WiFi signals. I think digital detox could be a big selling point.

I must admit, I agree with everything you are saying. I like the idea to charge phones while seating on the bench and the actual bench itself, dont particularly like adverts and dont see much need in WiFi (nowday phone contracts come with good data allowences) . As rightly somebody pointed out in the earlier posts, people have to stop rushing and benches are perfect opportunity to take time to relax. Ideally I would love to see lots of parklets across London where people can stop to rest. But unfortunately the only option available is to have benches with technology and adverts, I dont see Councils introducing just benches cause of the costs to make them and maintain them. It is sad indeed.

In Islington, 4 of the 5 benches that were installed have been ordered to be removed:

after planning permission was applied for retrospectively (the benches were installed with no PP in place). 4 of the applications were refused because they were in conservation areas.

There were also concerns from the police where the benches were close to the road, in an area known for phone snatches by bike riders.

Planning report:

http://planning.islington.gov.uk/NorthgatePublicDocs/00438158.pdf

Hi @blushingsnail my understanding is that Islington Council are still working with Strawberry Energy who are relocating the benches that have been removed in alternative locations at Strawberry Energy’s expense.

In Lewisham the smart benches have been installed following consultation with planning, community safety and a number of other service teams. Any locations where concerns have been identified either by Council teams, or by responses from the public to notices put up in possible locations, have been rejected. The benches are considered to be permitted development by the Council’s planning service but each location is reviewed on a case by case basis paying particular attention to any local circumstances such as existing design of public space and conservation areas.

Hope this is of interest.

Martin

Have locations in SE23 been confirmed then?

Hi @starman

A second phase of 5 sites for smart benches in Lewisham has been agreed, these benches are in Catford (Broadway), Evelyn (Sayes Court), Sydenham (Queensthorpe Road), Bellingham (Bell Green) and Brockley (Lewisham Way).

As you can tell from the above I am working on wards rather than postcodes, so apologies if that isn’t quite what you are after.

We had looked at a bench near Forest Hill pool but concerns were raised that this might not fit with the existing design of this area.

Once the second phase of benches has been installed, which should be in the next couple of weeks, I will look to consult on a third phase of possible locations, including a number of sites in Forest Hill. I am happy to update SE23 Life on this as it happens.