Overground ticket offices (including Forest Hill) saved from closure

As reported by the Sydenham Society, all Overground train ticket offices are due to close within the next 18 months:

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[full blog post]

I don’t mind having to buy my ticket at the ticket machine. What I do mind is having to buy a more expensive ticket because the machine doesn’t offer the cheapest option for the journey I need to make, or indeed tell me what the cheapest option is. I suspect this will never be fully resoved thanks to our endlessly complicated ticketing structure. I do rate the advice by staff on what ticket to buy as the detail of the pricing can be incomprehensible, e.g. does anyone know why a single ticket to Gatwick Airport is a different price from a single ticket back?

Is the ticket office at Forest Hill only operated by Aviva? What about Southern Rail. Frankly I just always assumed it was run by Network Rail. Except I now see from the Network Rail site that Forest Hill is operated by London Overground.

This sucks.

When they say closing the ticket office does it also mean getting rid of all staff or will staff be kept on to man the gates and help at ticket machines?

I don’t think the changes are a done deal. Until they have ticket machines that can offer all ticket combinations (i.e. issuing point to point season tickets) they are unlikely to persue the closer of ticket offices at stations on shared network, especially at the busiest stations operated by Overground/Arriva.

I think it will be some time before the machine technology allows them to make this change because there are too many different ticket combinations available from a station like ours. But once the machines can do it, and staff are on hand to help customers use the machines, I don’t think the closure of the ticket office is unreasonable.

I thought tfl stations were purposely staffed to help customers & to man the barriers. Also when & if this does come into effect, what happens if the ticket machine isn’t working?
When my daughter went to buy her travel card from a machine at Bromley South a few weeks ago, she paid by card, but then it said the transaction couldn’t be completed. She webt to the ticket office inside & the man said no it wouldn’t have taken the money. This was on a Saturday. She checked her account & it said the payment was pending, but her Oyster card wasn’t showing an updated travel card. So, she had to get it again! In the meantime the helpline said the first payment had to come out first, then be paid back in again, so in affect she paid twice! She did get the money back about a week later, but it’s not very good is it?

Waste of resources to have ticket offices. It’s one of those things where you need to give some passengers a bit of a nudge to go online / use a ticket machine.

The staff on the gate line should help with ticket machines if needed. Having someone just sitting behind a ticket booth all day is not very efficient or helpful.

I understand that some passengers will use them, but I haven’t personally spoken to anyone in a ticket office for years, and I presume I am one of the majority.

It still amazes me that regular commuters still join the long queue on a Monday morning to use the ticket machines or ticket office. The Oyster website is so straightforward and means that you never have to queue up again for your regular ticket. I have mine set up so that it immediately refreshes my oyster with £20 when I drop below £5. It is so simple.

@Hollow

i don’t need a nudge to go online or use a ticket machine to buy rail tickets.

However until the rail companies enable the purchase of tickets from the boundary of a TFL zone online or through a ticket machine, those of us who hold season tickets, freedom passes, 60+ oyster cards etc covering some or all TFL zones will continue to need a ticket office for rail journeys to destinations outside the zones covered.

You can do boundary tickets on machines now, no?

Yes you can, I’ve done them before at Forest Hill on the machines when the ticket office was shut and ended up in a long queue for them.

While I largely order train tickets for when I travel outside London online, there are still some issues which are easier to resolve at the ticket office. A machine is not easy for some older people and disabled passengers.

But yes, for basic Oyster fares, I just do it online (as quick as 30 mins before leaving or even less!) and touch on the gate or on a bus to the station.

@Baboonery @rbmartin - Thanks for your updates. I wasn’t aware boundary tickets were now available from the ticket machines but admittedly haven’t tried for a while having been told by the ticket office staff that they weren’t available from the machines.

Next time I’m travelling out of London I’ll have another go!

That’s all well and good but what about people who can’t read and don’t understand the machines because of dyslexica

Like the tube stations, staff will be supervising to help customers when required.

There will still be people around to help. The Underground has been mostly ticket office free with a similar level of outcry but it appears to be mostly working.

There are a couple of things that I’ve needed done that previously were done at a ticket office - eg adding a railcard to an Oyster card. Now you just speak to the station staff and they go into a special menu and process the request. They’ll help those unfamiliar with the task or struggling to read/see/reach the machines to get what they need.

I have a Freedom Pass, but feel much safer If the Station is manned. The Ticket Office is also really useful for advice and they are really friendly and helpful.

But the staff won’t be disappearing, They will be manning the ticket machines and barriers and generally serving customers, just not from behind a glass partition.

Is that clear from the consultation though?

Not sure but that’s what I keep hearing.

I disagree mainly for the reason some customers who have protected characteristics under the equality act and elderly people have difficulty using machines and would prefer to talk to someone who can help them straight away and they don’t feel intimated by other customers queuing up to use a machine who are capable of

That’s a very valid point that will have to be carefully thought of and I’m sure it is on top of TfL’s agenda of things to consider. I believe the station will still be manned so there is assistance available with the machines so the process for the customer doesn’t really change - other than the staff will be standing next to you rather than behind a wall of glass. Still much better than for other modes such as DLR for instance. TfL now had years with Underground to test this approach and had it not been successful I don’t think they would have rolled it out further.

There are still some issues with some products that need ticket office assistance.

Railcards such as Network, Young Persons etc, along with longer than one period season tickets and photocards for them. Also travel vouchers can’t be redeemed at a machine.

This is a shame, the people at Brockley station are so nice. We should let TfL know as these people are part of our community and we should care about them too.

I think it is a standard for stations with the Overground (TFL operated)that they will have staff whenever they are open.

Indeed, it’s part of the concession agreement with Arriva Rail London who operate London Overground that all stations are staffed from first train to last.

I’ve been at FH off the last train from London Bridge and a member of staff is at the gateline, ready to lock up the ticket office.

There is a consultation by London TravelWatch underway which contains more details.

http://www.londontravelwatch.org.uk/news/view?id=715&x[0]=news/list

From what I’ve read so far, for SE23, the ticket office at Forest Hill is supposed to remain open but Honor Oak Park is due to close.

The consultation closes on 11th October 2018.

As a regular user of HOP I’m not sure what difference it will make as the booths are rarely manned. One concern though is that the prices from the ticket machine are a total lottery (I have been charged three different amounts for the same journey at the same time).

All I will say is that I would feel bad if anyone lost their job as for them personally it may be very difficult situation.

However, this summer I spent quite some time interacting with the staff and I found it very frustrating especially when I realised that a child ticket bought over the counter with Network Rail discount is more expensive than PAYG on your credit card. This was for a visiting child who did not have their child Oyster card.

On the other hand I managed to upload my discount railway card onto my oyster at Canada Water where I was served by a person by the gate (not in the office). This same thing I could not do at Forest Hill office.

I don’t believe that the people did not want to create frustration to me, as they were bound to what their computer and systems allowed them to do.Now is this fragmentation of services designed for me not to care of losing the ticket offices?

Yes and what is ignored in the stats is people asking for advice. I found it very useful to talk to the kiosk staff about pricing for my daughter’s school commute. When you take into account point to point season tickets and the like, the same comparison was not readily available online and I do not believe that these options are on the ticket machines. If the staff can still access this info without being tied to the ticket booth then that would be something - I wonder if that will be the case?

I agree, trying to find out best price in advance on the website one needs hours of research, whereas a person dealing with this every day could possibly remember the best option.

Then again, I am sure that the complicated fare structure is designed to maximise the income, as there is little benefit to charge you the best fare, as the best fare becomes what you see and accept.

There is also the loss of an outlet to sell an oyster card.

True… but there are Oyster Ticket Stops at Jerayani News and Honor Oak Supermarket. Not the same I know… but at least…

London Reconnections has an article where it shows a table of sales where how many transactions are made at ticket offices through the day.

Out of the affected stations for closure, HOP is busiest during the morning peak during two time periods compared to other affected station ticket offices, which may be a case for keeping it open between 0600-1000 at least when it’s most required.

Last day of consultation, survey here: https://www.surveymonkey.co.uk/r/CDVZWTM

I’ve done it too (and I am former Chair of London TravelWatch!). I think HOP is unlucky to be picked out when Brockley, Forest Hill etc are unaffected. HOP is only just below 12 tickets ph threshold, and I think the data may have been depressed by industrial action

— Stephen Locke (@Gwynforsenior) 10 October 2018

Watchdog forced to postpone closure of London Overground ticket offices after ‘unprecedented and overwhelming’ response

http://www.railtechnologymagazine.com/Rail-News/watchdog-forced-to-postpone-closure-of-london-overground-ticket-offices-after-unprecedented-and-overwhelming-response

What happens if your Oystercard with loads of credit on stops working and you need to transfer it onto a new one? (Happened to me, sorted at ticket office immediately.)

What happens if your annual rail paper season ticket becomes worn out and unreadable or stops working. (Happened to me several times over the years.)

The machines don’t cut it for anything that isn’t buying a regular ticket or topping up a travelcard. Bad idea.

On the tube ticket machines, there are admin features which allow them to do more complex ticketing issues. This may be the case with the larger machines at least?

Thanks to campaigning by Sydenham Society and Ellie Reeves, station ticket offices have been saved from closure:

https://se26.life/t/station-ticket-offices-saved/1443?u=chrisbeach

Great that it’s been reversed and in the case of Anerley and Penge West are getting extended ticket office hours. These only open during the morning peak currently.

Apple/Android Pay has already made these redundant. I understand not everyone has or wants smartphone with paying capabilities, but it has made life so much simpler for many of us in recent times. I haven’t needed to queue for a ticket or replacement Oyster for 18 months. I am very happy with the new technology, make it easier for everyone to have and close these 20th century relics!

It really hasn’t. I can’t use Google Pay to go on a train outside the Oyster area using NFC with my phone although I use it for train journeys.

It really has.

My post was quite obviously related to the 300 odd days a year I use public transport in and around London rather than my biannual visit to my in-laws in Scotland… But even for that journey, it will always be quicker and cheaper to pre-order and collect tickets in Euston rather than approaching the ticket office in Honor Oak Park.

I don’t think it will be too long before we see Apple/Google pay being accepted for travel across the country, and I look forward to that.

And how would that work with the complex ticketing system we currently have?

I don’t work for a train operating company and as such cannot answer that question, but a somewhat defeatist “it cannot be done” attitude is not going to result in any progress being made.

Agreed with that sentiment, but the current fare structure would have to be simplified to not make the technology unduly complex and therefore expensive.

I find that different regions can vary a lot when it comes to complexity of train tickets, but our patch is particularly hard to grasp. Why is a ticket to Gatwick cheaper when booked from a specific station in Zone 3 rather than from Zone 3 Boundary (the common option for Travelcard holders), for instance? And why are the fares different in each direction? Why are Oyster/contactless and paper ticket the same price on some routes but not on others?

Until someone manages to weed out this jungle, it will always need an expert in a ticket office to tell you the best fare, because technology can’t.

Note @rbmartin didn’t say it cannot be be done, and clearly technology can and could enable a nation-wide Oyster-like system - every ticket office and machine at stations already rely on a computer to work out fares.

However, you only have to look at the difficulty Oyster had in getting acceptance on various national rail routes in and around London to see the difficulty that would be faced - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oyster_card#Roll-out_on_National_Rail

And then some train operators have even made their own Oyster-like but incompatible systems within their networks e.g. the Southern Rail Key Card

Rolling out a payment system like Google/Apple/Samsung pay must be trivial compared to this, especially when Visa and MasterCard had already bought connectivity and homogenised merchant payment systems.

Oyster/Contactless in London works because it works on the simple premise of charging a point to point fare based on zones for a single fare, along with capping which is cheaper than a travelcard. Also bus passes and travelcards can be loaded onto the cards, saving time. This is what has allowed the tube and DLR to be ticket office free.

The National Rail fare system is so complex that a system would have to be put in place to distinguish between the numerous types of fares devised. Not to mention how you’d get railcards connected to your Apple/Google pay account.

The rail companies have also tried to get passengers to use smartcards, based on the ITSO system to minimal success, even then you still have to load tickets onto the card, it’s not a case of putting a tenner on and touching in at Redhill and getting off at Tonbridge as you can do with Oyster within London.

Southern have The Key, which you can use if you have a travelcard on it at Forest Hill, but you can’t buy tickets to add on it as the station is run by London Overground who use Oyster as their smartcard.

The realistic option is that tickets will be bought online and sent as QR codes to your phone. Some rail tickets already have QR codes printed out on them.

They’re already semi-closed.

Most evenings at Forest Hill, the ticket barriers are locked open and there’s no sign of the staff: where are they?

The ticket office is open during these hours.

Monday to Friday: 06:10 - 20:50
Saturday: 06:40 - 21:15
Sunday: 07:10 - 21:45

After these times, there should be a member of staff at the station until the final train.

OK I wonder what this means? Visibly on duty? Having a snooze in back office?

I’ve found the rear gateline on Perry Vale has been left open when the person supervising it has gone on a break in the daytime.

After the ticket office closes, the main gateline may be left open when the member of staff does their safety checks.