Trees Missing - Outside Sylvan Post

Two large trees missing from outside Sylvan post…

That is a massive shame. Seems unlikely to be vandals as these were pretty substantial trees.

Council chainsaws?

The Dartmouth Road works proposal described “retaining trees wherever feasible, replacing any felled trees.” Weasel words that would allow them to chop down as many trees as they liked. The council don’t seem to appreciate that mature trees capture carbon at a faster rate than young trees.

IMO it’s an environmental crime to remove mature trees in such an over-developed and congested part of London.

I don’t know the details (I didn’t think they were going to be removed) but those trees did plenty of damage to the pavement, so perhaps more appropriate trees would be better for the area, and allow more light for the area and the flats.

Here are the plans from the council for this area:

image662×621 181 KB

Are there any trees remaining outside the Sylvan Post? The plans refer to ‘retained’ trees.

I am all for keeping mature trees. However, those seemed to me to be much closer than the recommended distance for such trees from buildings. As a general rule of thumb, roots extend outwards the same distance as the height of the trunk. This is why my neighbours’ mature oak tree has to be crowned every few years, to stop the roots reaching the houses.

No trees left. There were two and now none remain.

That is a great shame. Were they silver birches?

Here’s a pic from street view:

image2098×1125 2.48 MB

Really attractive trees

Hmm. Well, the two closest to the buildings are too close. The one closest to the kerb might have been okay, though.

This is a current view:

Those were lovely trees.

The reason I live in this area now is the trees. In north London, too often there are no trees. I find British people seem to be scared of trees. Very weird.

This is such a shame. The only reason that area in front of Sylvan Post was at all nice was the trees.

There will be trees in that location. Sadly not the ones that were there - too late to save them. But there will definitely be trees in this location, and generally more trees on Dartmouth Road, after the scheme than before it. Nobody is going to get away with anything less!

Not so Forest Hill it seems.

This is a complete surprise and makes me extremely naffed off… those trees seemed quite mature and not replaceable by anything remotely comparable. On the plans it blatantly says ‘resin gravel around existing trees’… the resin thing presumably solving the pavement issue mentioned above so what the actual f…?
I’m not around FH right now as dealing with family stuff in the sticks but had I seen this happening I’d have gone into full on Swampy mode. (Showing my age)
So what can be done? Obviously the trees are gone but can the replacements be big? Like when they plant full size palm trees in places? Who can be held to account?
Compensation of some sort?
What a bunch of (insert extreme expletive of your choice here)

Is there a project manager for the project we can contact? Although I can understand there may have been a rationale for removing the trees, it’s just as likely, with Lewisham’s record for stealth destroying of trees, that it was a cock up or worse. I think we need - maybe through FHSoc - to ask why this happened and what the replacements will be. Yes, it’s too late to save these, but that doesn’t mean it’s right to just shrug our shoulders. Otherwise this will keep happening.

Mature trees can be bought. We need to make suee this happens, and we don’t just get some weedy saplings instead.

It is right that an air of calm be maintained here.

There may indeed be a rationale - were the trees diseased and possibly presenting a hazard?

If so, the project team should produce a tree surgeon’s (arborist ?) report inclusive of evidence that supports the decision.

If there has been no such report, conclusion or equivalent and some imprudent decision to fell the trees was made, there must then be some consideration given to whether a statutory offence has been committed, particularly if a Tree Protection Order or Notice was in place.

Prosecution followed by replacement with mature equivalents at no cost to the public purse may emerge as being amongst the most effective remedies.

Whilst I liked @Andy’s scorched earth pic - have the stumps been removed and if not has any one taken a picture to establish whether there is evidence of rot or disease ?

Hope this is not off topic but we were promised years ago when Forest Hill central was build that there will be trees on the opposite pavement which never materialised

I do hope they are replaced. They were beautiful trees but somehow felt not quite right for the location. That in itself isn’t a reason to cut them down, but I’m keen to see what they may be replaced with. I love the silver birches which are popping up already, but it would be great to have some complimentary planting but still with a good canopy to provide summer shade.

I wonder if we know anyone who knows the construction team who might be able to get some intel. I don’t know… maybe someone who owns a local shop. Like a sweet shop?
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If it’s the ones I am thinking of, they had iron work around them, growing into the trunks.

What’s with all the pavements being covered in huge plant pots anyway?

It does raise this question - where is there a George Washington when you need one ?

During the initial consultations I collared a group of street designers and Council people and told them that I thought those trees had become oppressive and over-bearing in that tight and enclosed place. I told them that my point of view wasn’t purely as a pedestrian but, as my son’s friend was looking at buying a flat on the 1st floor, I also said that they must cut out so much natural light, which would mean that the residents of that block would probably need to turn their lights on and waste energy even during the day.

My preference was always for some smaller trees with lighter leaves and a less dense canopy.

Totally agree. Happy to lobby alongside others. Do we have a contact?

Thank you anon5183jd for trying to bring a little less reactionary feel to this thread.

I lived for 2 years immediately behind the Sylvan Post so am well acquainted with the pub and the lovely area in front of it and now live further along Dartmouth Road so walk past the area twice a day on my way to station.

As Michael said, the pavement nearest the road was very uneven and Monday’s excavation of the area exposed the tree roots were responsible for this. I guess retention of the trees could not be confirmed until the area was excavated and expectations should have been managed appropriately.

There were two vans from a tree surgeon present on Wednesday afternoon (I don’t remember the name) so hopefully there will be an answer to those who have asked for details as to why the three trees could not be retained which will hopefully be communicated in the the next update issued to residents, or could be sought in the interim by those who require it rather than jumping to conclusions,.

meanwhile Bianca Jagger remains strangely silent on the issue

The 2011 map of the Forest Hill Conservation area appears to exclude that little area in front of Sylvan Post - so little or no protection there.

Does anyone have an more up-to-date view ?

And whilst many boroughs publish TPO’s in list and map form - Lewisham appears not to - again does anyone else have a source of up-to-date data.

Here ya go mate. Looks very different.

IMG_20180203_1118084608×3456 5.15 MB

Meanwhile, a police car of blues caught out by the road closure. Not good to see.

IMG_20180203_1117233456×4608 4.84 MB

Depressing. It was pleasant before. Not now.

Oh well at least the people in the flats above the post will have a great view of the perpetual traffic jam that the narrowing of the road is going to cause. But hey - The pavements opposite the swimming pool and the grass verge are now wide enough to hold a tea dance on. It’s the shopholders I feel sorry for. Families with pushchairs and people with mobility scooters will use the widest pavement and won’t be able to see half the shops because of the delivery vans etc blocking the view…

Surely they could have adjusted/built around the tress rather than just cut them down and plant new ones? Maybe they don’t see the difference?

Unfortunately in our litigious society trees are a no no.

How is that then? I thought the Dartmouth street projects included a number of new plantings.

Councils don’t like big trees, people trip over roots, branches fall on people. Council gets sued. Let’s see if they replace the trees, I wonder if they will “forget” to replace them.

Well I suppose that is the concern expressed here, insofar as to whether they will be replaced. I’d be happy to join any effort to hold the contractors and ultimately Lewisham Council accountable for this.

I guess historically there have been issues with plantings particularly with trees that are unsuitable for the environment they are in. Not sure what a tree surgeon can do to safeguard pavements and people from tree roots, but I’d hope the Council would maintain trees to minimize the risk of falling branches.

I quite like the silver birches which are in vogue these days. I gather they are also well suited to their use in streetscaping. But as I said before its nice to have some variety too.

Anyways… we shouldn’t really be making this a political discussion, right?

Why don’t they use the money that was raised to paint that name sign under the bridge, and buy two mature trees? The trees will last a lot longer and look a lot better. At least they won’t be vandalised ti a matter of months.

Because it can’t be used in that way. I would suppose there is nothing to stop someone starting another ‘crowdfunder’ for this type of project. Lewisham has a tree sponsorship scheme which would be suited to this type of endeavour.

Why don’t we hold our horses until we know a) why the trees were felled and b) what the plans are to replace them?

Does anyone know who the best person to contact is? Is there a project manager we can liase with?

Where would a community forum be without speculation?

True, but I mentioned “council’s” of which there are many and have many backgrounds politically. So not political.

Anyway, I hope they are replaced as they were fantastic to sit under on a summer evening, drinking a poncy lager and watching the antics in and outside of the BiH.

London’s register of roadworks has LB Lewisham as owner of permits for several works underway here.

There are no contractor details present.

However there should be an obligatory information board displayed on site.

Any chance that @anon30031319’s pictures captured the data ?

I can’t believe how poorly considered this whole redevelopment is - slippery pavements, narrower road, trees gone, business suffering due to road closure, buses not serving the main road for months - madness.

Nothing I can see from searching the pic mate. Sorry. Will look next time I pass.

I couldn’t see anything when I walked past earlier today but didn’t look closely. Here’s a pano:

IMG_0772%20copy2000×787 684 KB

As you can see, @Andy wasn’t far off with his photo

As Mel Gibson said in Braveheart: “They may take our trees, they may take our pavement, but they will never take our God-awful, ugly BT phone boxes!!!”

I for one am totally gutted to hear this. The people responsible are nothing short of vandals. There is no justification for this. Once again the residents have not been consulted about this judging by all the comments. We have just been deprived of a few more trees that made the urban landscape more pleasant and livable.

With minimum of success have made several calls to LB Lewisham this morning re TPO’s and Project Managers/Contractors.

Return calls have been promised and are awaited.

Have repeated calls to LB Lewisham this afternoon.

Have been given name and e-mail address for project contact there - will write in next few minutes.

TPO people are now telling me I have to wait 48 hours for a response from unit.

PS sent email.

Thank you for your persistent, @anon51837532. If you don’t get a response, or the one you get is unsatisfactory, I’m sure there are plenty of people here happy to send follow-up emails.

I hate to dump stuff on someone in their final few weeks, but @MajaHilton are you in a position to help find clarity on this?

Hoping there is a good reason these were removed, the pavement outside the pub was pretty messed up from the roots.

Would be great to see some new planting there, I’m sure there would be a suitable tree/s for that area.

Maybe not the ‘tree of hell’…

https://www.timeout.com/london/things-to-do/9-of-londons-best-street-trees

Hi All,
I have asked for the update from contractors and officers at the Council on the trees and as soon as I have a reply I will post it here.

As @Michael said, in the plans the area had resin bound gravel to allow trees to have rain water.

Superb as ever Maja, you will a loss to the area when you finish.

Can you also remind the planners that trees actually do have roots. It may be news to them.

Just received this explanatory note from Lewisham’s PM.

"Dear Mr @anon5183jd,

You are correct in your report that the original intention was to retain those trees.

The trees were fell due to the large roots that were discovered by the contractor on excavation of the area which impeded the required construction depth to facilitate the installation of the new paving.

Having contacted the Councils tree section for advise, it was considered not feasible to cut out such large roots and save those trees. Hence their removal.

New trees will be replanted in the area using modern technological advancement, which prevents the spread of tree roots laterally and directs root in a vertical location to assist in preventing any future uneven surfacing creating a risk of pedestrians tripping.

The new trees will be in keeping with the scheme proposals in growth size, species and girth of foliage and installed in due course on completion of the works in that area.

I have cc’d in the contractors site supervisor, should you wish to discuss anything further on the construction.

Kind regards

Les

Les Senior - Project Manager

Regeneration and Place"

Happy to share emails and other contact details in PM.

Thanks for enquiring and sharing the response @anon51837532. I really hope the new trees will be mature, and not weedy little saplings. Fingers crossed.

I have suggested in my thank you note to the PM that perhaps local residents and businesses may want to engage in further consultation about tree selection.

This comment in particular is interesting

And a further comment in response to my thank you.

"Dear Mr @anon5183jd,

You are most welcome.

I have also requested that the contractor inserts the reasoning in their news letter which gets distributed in the locality.

Regards

Les

Les Senior - Project Manager

Regeneration and Place"

Hi @anon51837532

You stole my thunder. I was about to post virtually the same response.

I now need some experts in trees to brief me on the replacemnets, as we want to end up with the best suited trees for the area.

Is silver birch a good tree for this location, and what minimum size do we need?

Thanks

Apologies to @MajaHilton - - but I had a dear old aunt who on reflecting on small kindnesses would always comment - you will get your reward in heaven.

I never really had the courage to let her knew that as a non-believer I could only take her advice on trust !

I will leave real tree experts to respond to your request.

Monkey puzzle trees!

Nominates @starman as Expert No. 1

Although this might require careful policing for those who over imbibe and fancy their chances in a quick shivvy up the trees.

Really, that’s interesting. So a spread root tree can become a tapped root tree. Unless they are using an Arborsystem (or similar) the only other option is to go with a tree with a tap root.

Might be a gd idea to ask brockley street trees as they’ve planted hundreds of trees in and around brockley. I wd have thought most silver birch species are too large. In grierson road we’ve had several taken out over past 5 years as they grow far too large for the average Lewisham street. Gingko biloba mt b a gd choice.

CC @StreetTreesforLiving

Thank you @MajaHilton and @anon51837532. We could potentially end up with something better than we had before - trees suitable to the location, with protection against future damage caused by the roots.

Is it really down to residents to suggest which new trees we’d like? Or are we just gathering information so we can express a preference if asked?

Not my area of expertise but it certainly looks like the issue is being addressed by physical means

I think on a consultation and “if asked” basis.

But no harm that those who live in the vicinity get an opportunity to influence choice.

Lewisham Council told us that each tree they chopped down one by one in our road would be replaced with a new one. Were they b******s. Lies pure and simple. We used to live in a tree lined road about 10 years ago, not any more. There’s about three left and I doubt they’ll be there long.

Nice work on the contact @anon51837532

Problem, it’s expensive and doesn’t take into account existing infrastructure.

Good point.

But with the extent of excavation work already undertaken and with scanning techniques that are much more significantly advanced, it is to be hoped that the identification of services routes will not present a huge problem.

The trees removed were completely unsuitable for that location due to their size. They weren’t that mature either - I think they were only about 20 years old - so something would have had to be done about them at some point.

My suggestion would be to plant flowering cherries where possible on Dartmouth Road. Preferably all of the same variety so they all flower at once for maximum impact. If fastigiate varieties were chosen there would be minimum shading. There are already some flowering cherries by the Pools.

Silver birches are obviously in fashion at the moment among highway managers, but I’m not sure that they do much for a street, however elegant in their own right.

Hi @RachaelDunlop

It is definitely for my benefit. Silver Birch has been mentioned to me, but if it is not bought yet, I may be able to suggest an alternative. Obviously my current knowledge on type of trees is somewhat nonexistent and that is where I need all your help.

It is relatively shaded place already, so trees need to be able to cope with that. Some type of Xmas tree was suggested as well.

So anyone who knows about trees in urban settings please call me or email me, I would love to chart to you.

Bus. phone: 020 8314 7899

Email: cllr_maja.hilton@lewisham.gov.uk

Just a thought maybe the Hornimann could offer some advice.

@HornimanMuseum - any thoughts on trees that would be suitable for your neighbours on Dartmouth Road?

Hi there,

We’re happy to ask our Gardens team here if they have any suggestions. We’ll let you know if they have any ideas.

Useful link here:

Thank you @Londondrz

We’ve just had trees replaced in our street (where there were some many years ago but not for a few years) and I think we chose the type. We may have also paid for them collectively as I recall. The Brockley street tree people are the experts here.

Ps I love a flowering cherry!

I didn’t know they distributed a newsletter. Not had this delivered and we’re local. Is it available online I wonder?

I’m not close enough to be on the circulation list if it is delivered locally.
I wonder if say @Pauline or anyone else who is closer can add to this ?
I have been given the contact details and can write once more if nothing emerges.

I can put a list together from here & pass all suggestions on to Curtis who’s overseeing the whole project.

I’ll do it on Monday & let Curtis know tomorrow

Thank you @Pauline.

Just proves you can’t beat real local knowledge.

No problem

Looks like there is another freshly cut tree in the 'hood. A tree next to the Waldram Park Road bus stop on the South Circular (by Sunderland Road) was rather a lot shorter (2-3 feet) when I walked past it this evening.

Granted it did have a root system which was lifting several pavement stones and blocking half the pavement.

The original intention was to retain the trees outside Sylvan Post.

Having found an email address for Curtis, the site supervisor, I have now received this reply from him…
The trees were felled due to the large roots that were discovered by the contractor on excavation of the area which impeded the required construction depth to facilitate the installation of the new paving and their growth impeding utility services in that operation.
Having contacted the Councils tree section for advice, it was considered not feasible to cut out such large roots and save those trees. Hence the decision for removal.
New trees will be replanted in the area using modern technological advancement, which prevents the spread of tree roots laterally and directs root in a vertical location assisting in the prevention of future uneven surfacing, creating a risk of pedestrians tripping and utility services.
The new trees will be in keeping with the scheme proposals in growth size, species and girth of foliage and installed in due course on completion of the works in that area. I believe the silver birch has been proposed by our consultants for that locality.
I hope this assists you with the reasoning behind the unfortunate but necessary felling of the trees.
The phone boxes in this area are to be removed, we are just waiting on BT to disconnect and remove.

FYI I have now been informed that the trees have been purchased & they will be Silver Birch. Guess that’s final.

i asked the person who is overseeing Curtis from Lewisham Council about this on Friday & that’s the exact info I got.

So Silver Birch it is!

I will point out here Curtis has been brilliant throughout the whole D Rd works by keeping us up to date & doing his best to make it as painless as possible for traders & residents as he can