The other week, Lewisham Police took a number of large and scary knives off the streets. Tweeting their pics of them, inc this one.
They have been kind enough to post an update with the court results of this arrest.
Brace yourself, its serious!!
Don’t think that deserves a response 
And there lies the root of the problem.
And the Courts will probably award them compensation for a breach of human rights for the distress caused by the stop and search.
Exactly!
My blood is boiling.
So this is how a modern civilized society deals with something as serious as this.
I feel so sorry for the police, who’ve done a stellar job, but then the legal system goes and fails everyone - except the thug carrying the knife, who, in my book, should have been taken somewhere that’s very far away and very uncomfortable for a while.
Except to say a big THANK YOU to our police officers who are making every effort to make the place safer for us all.
You took the words right outta my mouth there @Anotherjohn
Would love to know the circumstances and reasoning behind the “sentence”.
The sentence is puny, and makes a mockery of police efforts. However, it’s another knife off the street at least.
Good to see the police standing up for Stop and Search as a policy (note the hashtag).
The trend (assuming it’s causation as opposed to correlation) is hard to ignore.
The knife probably cost as much as the fine. The maximum penalty is 4 years so how on earth do you get away with 12 hours community service? Were they also carrying a bag of beef short ribs to claim butchery practice? The mind boggles
I’m certainly not criticising the Police, they can’t do right for doing wrong. They are doing a sterling job.
We all know what you meant @GillB , you we’re probably as stuck for words as most of us are.
But what kind of ‘JUSTICE’ is there when the police have endured a tougher sentence than the skanky prick who was carrying this knife? How many man hours have they put in to make damn sure that the evidence stacks up to try to secure the maximum penalty is handed down? And how did they feel when some shit-for-brains judge thinks it’s fair that this criminal’s penalty amounts to way less time than they’ve spent on bringing the prosecution? Not to mention the CPS, court time, legal aid defence lawyer (probably), and so on.
This country needs to get some laws that have got teeth in them if we’re to see any sort of deterrent to people stabbing each other to death every day; and perhaps then the police will get the simple reward they deserve, which is to be able to go sleep at night in the knowledge that the job they did that day served it’s purpose in protecting the community.
.
‘Skanky prick’, ‘shit-for-brains judge’…I find the level of anger and ill-informed prejudice shown in this thread quite frightening. The judge (more likely magistrate?) in this case will have heard the defendant and learned about his circumstances and the circumstances of the offence. We haven’t.
And our prisons are already overcrowded, and I believe we imprison more offenders than all or most other European countries. Is that what we want?
John’s words were a bit strong but I understand his anger.
I don’t find John’s words frightening.
I find it frightening that thugs are out on Lewisham streets carrying these:
Don’t worry, it’s not you or me they’re after.
Phew! So they’re just casually knifing other people then, that’s a relief!
I can totally justify @Anotherjohns anger, that’s why I made my first comment. These Judges or Magistrates have made awful decisions like this many times before… They are up in their ivory towers, not fighting to gain control on the streets. As I’ve said before, the Police & Schools get the blame, but what about the parents getting involved & taking an interest in the children that are swaying towards gangs etc & asking for help, instead of blaming everybody else.
Indeed, they are - mostly their own peers. I find that sad rather than frightening (to me personally)
In response to @GillB, there is certainly a serious and apparently intractable problem about young people carrying and using knives. Those who commit knife crimes should obviously be apprehended, tried and punished. But I’m not sure that looking for someone to blame for the wider problem - parents, schools, judges, the police etc - is going to help solve it.
I didn’t say blaming anybody was going to help, but that is what is happening.
The parents of the children who are getting stabbed or shot (& sometimes these are innocent children who were not involved in gangs etc) are pleading with the Police, Schools, saying what can be done? Well what can be done? Something has to be done, & parents along with the Police, youth workers, schools have got to work together, that is what I was saying instead of blaming the lack of youth clubs etc. I worked in a primary school for many years & saw a lot of children (white as well as black) looking for someone to take them under their wing & guide them. I really felt for these children ad did my colleagues & we did our best to help.
Sadly the frequency and size of the knives being taken off the streets seems to be increasing.
This was earlier this week
Last week (13yr old)
And a man walked into Nando’s in Catford last night armed with a cutlass !
The punishments MUST increase. No “first offence” sentencing discounts.
I agree with @robin.orton that context IS important. And without it, it is hard to get a clear picture of what occurred from a single tweet. Unless of course it is clear cut, and obviously planned for violence.
Such as this in April.
No excuse for that!
And as we discuss… @SgtBiddle and PC Gillian are hard at work
Well until everyone is as perfect as you think you are it’s going to have to be on of those ‘each to their own’ things isn’t it!
As you’re calling me ‘ill-informed’ though, let me tell you where I’m coming from on this. I know some of these ‘s***** p*****’ and I have also had first-hand experience of a ‘s***-for-brains’ magistrate and a judge (***s = no need to repeat those profanities to make this point).
Oh, and, NO, I don’t want overcrowded prisons, which brings me on to the fact that prison, as it stands, isn’t harsh enough to be a deterrent.
I have a feeling that you may have read about criminals or, perhaps, been in meetings where their ‘problems’ have been presented through very learned and super-understanding(/naive) people but I’m afraid that’s trumped by growing-up with them and knowing why they do things. If I’m right on that I won’t hold it against you because, after all, we are all entitled to our opinion and our say.
Some well-meaning magistrates, judges, social workers, etc are, albeit unintentionally and inadvertently, preventing real justice from being done. Oh, and before you come back all clever with, “So what is YOUR definition of ‘real justice’?” Whilst thinking, “…you pathetic little philistine”. Let’s just say that I don’t regard 12 hours of community service and an £85 fine as being anywhere near it.
it is not proven that there is a correlation between stop and search numbers and knife crime numbers but it does seem to be a popular theory - according to the BBC, London is very much increasing stop and search after a period of decline.
‘From 2009 the number of stops has been falling across England and Wales, especially in London, primarily due to concerns that the measures unfairly targeted young black men, wasted police resources and were ineffective at catching criminals.
Theresa May, as Home Secretary, led efforts to drive down the number of stops, but there’s anecdotal evidence from police that young people are now more inclined to carry knives because of growing confidence they won’t be stopped.
The statistical basis for that is far from clear - but Scotland Yard and the mayor of London are now preparing to increase the use of stop and search again.’
That makes it sound as if Sadiq Khan is saving the day from a policy still held dear by Theresa May. Somewhat disingenuous.
As London Mayor, Khan has a lot of influence over the Met Police, and he made it very clear he opposed Stop and Search on ideological grounds:
I’m glad that Khan has recently u-turned and accepted the overwhelming evidence which shows knife crime increased after Stop and Search was cut.
yes good point, looks like he is doing something about knife crime then.
Fair enough, although I’m not sure what makes you say I think I’m perfect. I have many faults - I am , for example, peculiarly susceptible to draughts.
Brilliant!!!
See, I told you you are perfect!
Classy!
looks as though Sadiq Khan and Theresa May were lined up together ideologically then. Wonder when she did her U turn on it?
I could answer that but I don’t think party political flag-waving is really the right direction for this topic in the #crime category of the forum.
fair enough, but I think it was you who brought up the stop and search policy, so I thought continuing it would be ok. I will desist!
I agree with you on the language. But as for Britain imprisoning more people than most other countries - we have, I think, the third highest population in Europe, so it’s hardly surprising.
England and Wales have the highest per capita prison population in Western Europe - 143 people per 100,000. See http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/hi/uk/06/prisons/html/nn1page1.stm
Ah, you left out the crucial ‘per capita’. That is an interesting table. I choose to conclude we Britons are more predisposed to a life of crime, then. It must be the strain of coexisting on this crowded isle. 
I know a bit more & am happy to share all with @SgtBiddle about a kid that encountered a group of 3 a few days ago of teenagers & was threatened with a knife & ran to my shop to feel safe. I think it’s important that if some kids want to remain anonymous if they feel threatened can come forward regardless if further incidents may happen to keep themselves safe, so for that reason I will not share the name but will share all details & info with Jon.
I would rather they came to me & asked me not to give their name & tell me what happened rather than not telling any of us at all, I will keep talking & encourage them to tell all
This was a local kid I know from FH & my son has confirmed his name due to School friendships 
Straight out of the Acme Manual For Judges ‘n’ Magistrates 172nd Edition (Published 2018) - Chapter 1. Over-riding Factors to Consider When Sentencing
Pauline - it’s good he had your shop to run to. For those of us with older children who are travelling to school and back alone, this is a real worry, that they will unintentionally get caught up in something. I have heard far too many stories of schoolchildren getting mugged over the past year. I think it’s worth pointing out that these things aren’t just happening to ‘gangs’. I am not sure what can be done but it’s not an acceptable situation for our young people.
A fried of mine is a magistrate. Whilst I agree that they aren’t all representative of their communities, you are making a sweeping generalisation. My mate is a hard-working mother of three from a working class background (not that that should matter, but it seems to for some). She doesn’t live in an ivory tower.
She, like many other magistrates, have chosen to put their time and energy into a difficult job for very little money to serve her community. For that, she regularly is threatened and abused personally, as well as being the subject of derision by keyboard warriors who chose to judge her decisions off the basis of tweets and the tabloid press.
How about we all quit with the insulting generalisations (and I’m not just talking about Gill here)? It is perfectly possible to conduct a rational conversation about this worrying trend without doing so.
And to those of you who think you can do a better job, knock yourself out:
Mine wasn’t a ‘sweeping generalisation’, it related specifically to that particular sentence - nothiing else!
Of course judges and magistrates are not all the same.
What a ridiculous statement to make!
I accept that my language might have been a bit strong for some of the people who read it - but do I apologise? No, I’m afraid I don’t.
This whole story is sickening - from the perpetrator, the sentence and the soul-destroying effect that it must have had on the police, politicians, normal people on the street and families of loved-ones who’ve been killed or maimed by someone who is prepared to walk the streets with these long, sharp lethal weapons.
So, did I get angry and a bit out-of-my-pram - well of course I did!
Get over it!
(I take my hat off to your friend for having a go)
A lot of good points being made on an emotive issue. Would be a shame for any forum members to fall out over this. Let’s take a tea break?
The reason stop and search got cut in the first place was because it was being over used and used poorly. Targeted stop and search obviously works. Blanket unwarranted stop and searches don’t. There’s probably something in the middle that is the right answer.
I would like to say as well that I don’t think for one minute that a magistrates job is easy or I could do it as I couldn’t & wouldn’t like to! & I can understand @FaeryCatmother sticking up for her friend…I apologise if I have offended you that much, but if something tougher isn’t done, then where do we go from here?
The trouble with the idea of “ unwarranted “ or excessive stop and search is that it conflicts with the whole idea of profiling .
Profiling is completely empirical and based on group-related data - that’s where the perceived injustice is - some people with red noses and revolving bow ties are not clowns but if you stop 100 in the street you will reach 99 clowns I’m sure .
It falls down , obviously at the political hurdles and that’s where the likes of Khan and his ilk are prone to posture around whilst people are getting stabbed and shot ,
The main victims are black communities, who are now quite sensibly supporting stop and search for weapons .
People like Lammy and Abbot are victims only in the sense of the pain the feel at not scoring as many points as their outrage suggests they should.
There is no magic bullet to solve violent crime but it kind of disgusts me to see liberal idealogues playing political football with it . From the public perspective I thinks it’s as natural to harbour fear and hatred for the thugs that do the stabbing as it is to feel sorry for those families who’s lives are devasted by violent crime,
I think party political flag waving was redlined earlier in this thread- or is it now deemed ok to bash Lammy, Abbot and Khan here while ignoring the reductions in police numbers, funding , youth funding and reductions in stop and search initiated by the present government.
Not my intention to transgress- I certainly wasn’t consciously flag waving, as you put it , on behalf of any political party . I suppose its just because those kind of politicians tend to belong to a certain party. In any future criticism of self-serving, apologist behaviour by politicos , I will check first first to make sure they aren’t all or mostly left wing .
I’m getting the hang of this now I think .
There was an incident today on Kirkdale and in Baxter Field. According to reports a man with a knife threatened a number of people and assaulted a man on Kirkdale but nobody was hurt in the park. The man was arrested.
Lots of families a bit shaken by events.
Nobody was hurt in the park but obviously many people shocked. The man had also accosted other people on Kirkdale whilst on his way to the park so if anyone saw an incident outside George the barber shop at about 4.15pm please contact police because a guy there was actually physically assaulted.
A police officer told me they had a string of calls all at once so it will take them time to piece together what happened.
The guy was taken away in custody but in an ambulance because he’s possibly not very well.
No one is ignoring the reduction in Stop and Search. As Nigel and I both pointed out (and without scapegoating any particular party), reduction in Stop and Search is intrinsically linked to the rise in knife crime.
As for the reduction in funding / police numbers, it’s problematic, and no one would want to see police numbers reduced. On the other hand (and crucially), if we look at the data, police numbers have been this low before under previous mayors yet knife crime was also correspondingly lower:
Police numbers:
So the evidence doesn’t support the simplistic partisan conclusions drawn by @ThorNogson above.
Hi @anon5422159
So one simplistic argument is disproved with 2 simplistic graphs. Not go go in any further but surely all crime including knife one can’t be explained only by one or two factors.
If you read my post, you’ll see I said the prior simplistic conclusions are “not supported” by the evidence. Because they are evidently not 
I didn’t say they were disproved, or that anything could be explained by one or two factors alone, so please do not put words in my mouth.
It’s a complex situation. Data is our friend. We’ll never be able to prove things one way or another, but at least we can assess the weight of different arguments based on the degree they’re supported by the data.
Not always, I read.
“Data” and “reading” are not mutually exclusive. Data, collected rigorously, is truth in its purest form. The written word is interpretative. Both are important.
I’m wary of anyone (or any government, or any belief system) that “interprets” in the absence of data.
Since we strayed into @ethikos territory, I’m happy for @moderators to move this and Robin’s comment into the Ethikos category
I don’t think I drew a conclusion, simplistic or otherwise, causes and solutions are complex. As for partisan, it is helpful to try and understand how we got where we are with knife crime, and a great deal of thought and research has gone into it. I have referred to a few factual policies that many say have contributed.
None of this takes away from the appalling situation on the ground, and the images of what police are finding, and accounts of fights in local schools are truly horrific.
This account of the possible social causes is quite an interesting read.
It’s an opinion piece that repeats the usual leftist conflation that people are out knifing each other because they’re poor, or because other people are rich - implying the answer lies in the government redistributing even more earnings from net taxpayers to non-taxpayers.
Firstly, what a sad view of people in poverty - that they might be violent because of their poverty. What about the many low-income Londoners who get on with life without knifing other people?
In any case, the opinion piece is misleading because it uses the term “poverty” when it means “relative poverty.” Absolute poverty has fallen in the last eight years. Relative poverty has been “broadly stable”, according to independent fact checker FullFact. It’s unhelpful to spread misleading interpretations of UK poverty and then imply causation/correlation on other phenomenon.
Secondly we’re really in @general_politics territory now, if we’re going to start arguing fundamental left/right issues on the basis of opinion pieces as opposed to data on knife crime. @moderators - I’m happy for my post (as well as Thor’s, above) to be moved to General Politics.
I bow to all of you academics and clever people who are contributing to this thread on a highly intellectual level because I’ve clearly demonstrated and accept that I’m a caveman by comparison. I see all that data and theory about funding, which political party or Mayor did what, police numbers, stop & search and so-on but my questions relating to a person being caught in Bedrock with a knife go along the lines of -
A. Number of people found carrying a knife?
B. Prosecutions being brought to Court v’s dropped?
C. Cases won v’s lost?
D. Sentences being handed-down?
good that you are keeping this focused. on point D, I don’t think it has been mentioned here that following a recent review , new sentencing guidelines will be implemented on 1st June. The bit about knife possession is as follows:-
‘There is a mandatory minimum sentence of six months custody set by law for offenders who use any type of weapon to threaten. As the guideline gives the highest sentences to those offenders who threaten with knives or highly dangerous weapons, these offenders will always receive sentences greater than six months. The combination of the legislation and the guideline may therefore mean that there is an increase in sentences received by some offenders convicted of these offences.’
The new guideline applies both to adults and those under 18. In relation to the latter, the guideline will work alongside the Sentencing Children and Young People guideline and encourage courts to look in far greater detail at the age/ maturity, background and circumstances of each offender in order to reach the most appropriate sentence that will best achieve the aim of preventing reoffending, which is the main function of the youth justice system.’
Full detail here.
https://www.sentencingcouncil.org.uk/news/item/new-sentencing-guideline-introduced-for-the-possession-of-weapons-and-threats-to-use-them/
I interpreted that sentence totally differently to you. Perhaps robin was saying that he/she read that data isn’t always our friend.
Yes, I was. (And I’m an English Robin, therefore male.)
‘Data the purest form of truth?’ Well, well.
I know what you’re alluding to here, but it’s not accurate. And don’t think Danny Pearce’s family, just one of many examples out there, would agree with it either.
Well there it is!
So someone who’s ‘merely’ carrying a knife without threatening is not viewed seriously in law?
Deep breaths - one - two - three…(I’m out before I start ranting again)
I hope so, I carry one all the time, most of the farmers, fencers, game keepers, shepherdess’s etc etc carry them round here but we tend not to get that stabby in the countryside.
Trouble from the moment I slapped eyes on ya - TEN YEARS!
From a Guardian piece in 2017:on the fact that inconsistencies of knife crime reporting had become glaring and along with an announcement that the Guardian was launching a new project, Beyond the Blade came these quotes:
"Since we began tracking at the beginning of this year, nine children or young people, aged 19 and under, have been killed by knives. They fell everywhere from rural idylls to city centres, and were found in places ranging from a kitchen bin to an alleyway. They don’t even remotely conform to the stereotype of what constitutes knife crime. "
And as a an opposite corollary to this statement
“Scotland appears to have bucked this trend. In 2014/15, recorded crimes of handling an offensive weapon (which includes knives) fell to their lowest in 31 years, while the number of young people under the age of 19 convicted of carrying an offensive weapon fell 82% between 2006/7 and 2014/15.”
Found at:
This piece does not support this assertion.
I have a near neighbour and her family distraught and confused about how to deal with the loss of a loved son in a stabbing in 2017.
An air of realism about all of the factors discussed here is essential if the results of the Scottish model are to be secured and the horrific impact of the stabbing death of a loved one is to be eliminated in London.
Clearly, the socioeconomic factors and arguments can be talked about until the cows come home.
So, let’s forget about BEYOND THE BLADE
I say, zero-tolerance.
NO KNIFE - NO LOSS OF LIFE!
John
I can share a large part of the views in your commentary - but in my response i tried to make it clear we have to consider all factors.
And not just
And I can see myself in a role of holding the banner behind you as you lead the march
My next question would be “How ?”
I understand @anon51837532 and you have my utmost respect.
The answer to ‘how?’ is not for me, it’s for the politicians.
So, for them, it’s - go and have a meeting with Rudi Giuliani! Like NOW!
A hugely impressive result from his zero tolerance policy driven by a then impressive man.
But he himself identified that as a part of the execution and delivery of his policy, he needed the resource of a well staffed and motivated police service.
Perhaps we have a starting point there - how do we restore sufficient police numbers to halt the carrying of knives ?
And I concur that the “how” should be addressed by politicians first and foremost - but I think there is a realisation in the electorate that politicians have dropped the ball in allowing such a disproportionate shrinkage in police numbers.
I agree.
But what great way to start re-motivating our police by demostrating that the law and sentencing is backing them up (as opposed to 12hrs community service and £85 fine).
Why thank you Sir. Three squares a day, easy access to drugs, PlayStation and an easy life. Sign me up.
This is, unarguably, an appalling outcome.
It defeats logic and is a de-motivating factor.
Lets get on the march !
LOL!
All that clean country air’s gone to your head!
Sadly, at this time of year the countryside mainly smells of poo.
Sadly the knife culture is one of bravado and gang related actions. Little thought is given by the attackers as they don’t care. They want to be tough and fit in with the rest of the gang. I have no idea how to get the message across to people of the terrible effects it has on people’s lives that are left behind.
I think if the magistrates threw the book at them with the maximum sentence for possession every time these little thugs come in front of them, like minimum of 2 yrs upwards, the word would soon get out among there thug pals of what they will all get when they get caught .
But what about their background, and their feelings?
I do, of course, completely agree with you. We need to build some tougher jails IMO - if they’re sufficiently tough, we may find ourselves needing fewer of them.
Sometimes jail is a better place than home for some of them.
That’s exactly what I wanted to say - but I got shot down so many times so I held that one back until the flack subsided.
Please don’t worry too much as this is very random & seldom.
I can tell all Mums I will step in anytime I see an issue involving kids. & very strongly 
I think you’re right.
And those poor prison officers are scared to death of them.
We need to find big money from somewhere to turn things around - and I also think there might have to be a slight watering-down of our human rights and a little more commonsense thrown in to get a more effective control of the situation.
Good on you, but stay safe, @Pauline 
Sod on staying safe for me, I’m big enough and ugly enough to keep myself & any kids safe & most certainly will do!
well it’s still an offense to carry an offensive weapon, but it carries a lesser sentence than if it is used to threaten. It is for a jury to decide whether your knife is an offensive weapon, and there are legit defences for people who have knives in the course of their work etc.
You are absolutely right of course that juveniles are treated very differently to adults. You can see in these charts how offences are treated differently and the trends between cautions, community sentences and custody. One relevant quote from these current sentencing stats here:-
'The most common disposal for a knife and offensive weapon offence received by adults continues to be immediate custody (43%) followed by suspended sentence (25%) and community sentence (16%). For juveniles, the most common disposals were community sentence (52%), caution (29%) and immediate custody (14%). For those adults receiving immediate custody the average sentence length in 2017 was 7.6 months, and it was 7.0 months for juveniles. Of all sentencing occasions in 2017 involving a knife or offensive weapon offence, 72% had no previous possession offences involving a blade, point or offensive weapon. This has fallen 8 percentage points since 2008 (80%). ’
Full data here. https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/686493/knife-possession-sentencing-q4-2017.pdf
So what other possible contributors are there to an increase in knife crime?
Possibly the same as the increase in acid attacks. Gang initiations and fear factor.
Goalposts moved and rules changed for the police once again.
https://twitter.com/MPSLewisham/status/999727150998671360?s=19
Sad, but then Lewisham does not have those yellow boards after accidents or incidents either.
Do they not? I hadn’t noticed that before. I shall have to pay more attention. Although hopefully there won’t be any needed. Wonder what the thinking behind it all it.
Met Task Force were posting weapon seizure pictures last night so I guess it IS a local thing. Hmm