Accident on Woolstone Road / Cranston Road Junction

It looks like there has been a serious collision between cars at the Woolstone / Cranston Road junction with ambulances and fire brigade in attendance:

Let’s hope everyone is okay.

Awful I’ve complained numerous times to the council and Ellie Reeves about this and they’ve done sweet nothing about it. It’s so dangerous to cross as a pedestrian and because there are 4 directions of traffic it’s hard for the drivers to cross too. Al it takes is one of the speeding drivers

Not usual to see so many cases of beer at the site of a road accident!

Woolstone looks to have reopened to heavy traffic, but Houston Road is closed.

agree it’s still a dangerous junction. Years ago after the continuing series of accidents, local pressure led the council to install a raised area over the whole junction to slow everything down but it’s not been enough.

Ha - it does nothing.

I’ve seen it cause a minor accident where a car decided not to pull out and then rolled back off the raised section and into the car behind… I don’t like crossing behind cars there, or crossing there at all really

Ditto. And drivers get angry if you’re crossing as they are having to watch in all directions for cars, plus a pedestrian/s to look out for. Something needs doing @Lewisham_Councillors

I always thought a mini roundabout would be better in that spot.

Been coming for a while. Visibility from Cranston is terrible (hedges) so cars creep over the line, and/or think they have right of way and just carry on. Then add driving too fast from the mini-roundabout by Perry Vale, plus no pedestrian crossing assistance. Hope nobody is badly hurt, and that it wakes up @Lewisham_Councillors to review this urgently.

A mini-roundabout may also be a bit difficult for the bus to navigate - unless it’s one of those rubbish painted on roundabouts which everyone will drive straight over anyway

The ‘rubbish’ ones are not supposed to be driven around, they’re there to indicate that roundabout priority traffic rules apply. It’s a visual cue, not an obstacle, at least that’s what I always assumed the point of them was.

I wonder how we find out the outcome of this, so we can challenge Lewisham / etc. on what happened vs. all complaints we’ve made about it.

It’s possible to put a FOI in, but we need to ask a specific question about some records the council is likely to hold - otherwise it’s a waste of time.

I live very nearby. The fire brigade had to cut the roof off the car.
I think there was one person trapped and it took about an hour to get them out.

I think there is an old post on this forum (or another local one) where someone had started a petition to the local councillor. They mention a child had been killed at that junction in the past. Horrific, but even worse a tragedy like that didn’t lead to any real changes being made to safety. And the roads seem to be getting busier.

We shouldn’t need petitions for this kind of thing. We’re not supposed to discuss politics on this forum, but the poor representation does point to the need for a forum to discuss.

There was a petition in 2016 after a series of accidents at that junction. Clearly it’s not seen as important/dangerous enough to do anything about.

A child died at this junction many years ago and pedestrian refuges were installed to provide protection for pedestrians crossing the road and to slow down traffic. However, drivers parked their cars too close to the crossings and buses just could not get through. So the pedestrian refuges were removed!

I think this is part of the problem - it’s unclear how the junction can be improved given the limited space available and given that the 75 route goes down Woolstone Road and so needs a path though.

Traffic lights might be one fix, but they don’t really fit the residential street-scape and may suffer the problem that if the cycle was too slow pedestrians would try and cross dangerously anyway. They could also cause queuing traffic in the residential area which isn’t nice either.

Lowering the hedge at the corner of Woolstone / Cranston would help visibility, but I’m not sure the council has powers to force that.

Same issue with Sunderland road where it meets the south circular. The speed bumps are too shallow as the kerb is low and markings too faint on the junction to have any impact.

There was an accident last year as well. Car ended up about 20 yards into Cranston Road after being struck by another car speeding down Woolstone. Looked pretty bad but the passengers, Mum and child, got off without serious injury.
I’d move the 75 route but the only sensible way then takes it down Perry Rise and past the school.
Years ago Cranston Road was one way for a while due to some roadworks. It was great.

Arguably there is also a primary school and nursery along Woolstone Road, and buses are getting greener, but I take your point.

I like the idea a lot though, removing the bus from Woolstone would enable more options in tacking the dangerous junction. But… unfortunately there is no left turn from the bottom of Perry Rise into Perry Hill and it’s a tight corner. So that would mean the bus either going into Bell Green and turning there or some other more imaginative route. On the more positive side, Woolstone Road is only about 800m long and has a 75 stop at each end, so there’s not that much lost by removing the bus stops on Woolstone - though I’m sure it would upset those that do use them regularly.

Yes, moving the 75 bus route would be an inconvenience for the people who use the bus.
Woolstone Road has been a bus route for decades - what’s the point of moving the bus route? It’s cars that are causing difficulties for pedestrians and crashing into other cars, not buses.

The reason it’s being discussed is:

I’m not convinced that there wouldn’t be room for a mini roundabout, which would at least clear up whose right of way of it is, as to my mind this is what causes the problem. Or some kind of one way system/no right turn. It also wouldn’t hurt to put in measures to slow traffic down on Cranston and Woolstone!

Buses could still manage as they are going straight ahead.

It would be really nice to know what the council considered in the past and why certain options were not taken up.

Cranston is a tricky road as people seem to treat it like a race track despite the speed limit and road humps. I find it quite frustrating when trying to park as I’m constantly being tailgated, sometimes overtaken, by other drivers annoyed that i’m sticking to the speed limit.

It feels like traffic lights including a pedestrian crossing might be the most sensible option at that junction if a mini roundabout wouldn’t fit. I worry at the moment that it’s such an unsafe junction to try and creep out from and if so many accidents have happened already, it won’t be long before another happens again unless its properly looked at by @Lewisham_Councillors.

The right of way should already clear - there are stop lines and stop signs at the end of Cranston and Houston Roads as they meet Woolstone. Right of way is with traffic already on Woolstone Road.

However, I think it might be an unintended consequence of the ‘raised table’ that drivers on Woolstone slow down on approach to the junction even though they have right of way. This causes some drivers to try and nip across the junction or wrongly pull out into Woolstone.

I estimate there is about 1.5m² in the middle of the crossing for a mini-mini-roundabout. At that size, it will be ignored by the same bad drivers that don’t understand stop signs (or even stop to let pedestrians cross!).

There’s no reason a roundabout wouldn’t fit. The Highway Code does say:

All vehicles MUST pass round the central markings except large vehicles which are physically incapable of doing so.

…so should work for a bus or larger vehicle too.

Apart from, you know, physical space?

Here I took the Google maps satellite photo of the junction and transposed the mini-roundabout from the Perry Village end of Woolstone Road into it. It’s a bit narrow along the bus route, and as I mentioned previously, a painted one will just be driven over by all the drivers that don’t obey the current road layout and speed through anyway.

image1443×1154 648 KB

I’m not sure it notably improves the crossing for pedestrians either, especially when compared to something like traffic lights, though white paint is cheap I guess.

Is there anything that can be done about the junction @lewisham_councillors? Dangerous driving around this junction, and down Cranston / Houston roads is a recurring theme over several years. Or will it take another child to get killed for something to be done?

Hi John,

I think it might be best if you email the Perry Vale councillors cllr_john.paschoud@lewisham.gov.uk, cllr_susan.wise@lewisham.gov.uk and cllr_sakina.sheikh@lewisham.gov.uk and ask them to take a look, not sure if they’re active on this forum.

Leo

@LeoGibbons - I did email those Perry Ward councillors on Monday the 28th September, but have not yet received any acknowledgement. I intend to chase to make sure there isn’t a technical reason for a lack of response, but perhaps you could also mention it to them the next time you see/speak to them? That would be much appreciated.

Thanks Leo, will do

Yep, I will drop them a line about it.

Lets hope you get a better response than their constituents have been afforded.

To be fair, Councillors Paschoud and Wise have responded to me in the last few hours with thoughtful and informative responses. John Paschoud is LBL’s London Councils Road Safety rep and Susan Wise lives near to the junction so both are familiar with the area.

Thank you @LeoGibbons if you put a call in too

There’s a Council meeting on 21st October. You could maybe ask a question about it then? You need to register your question at least 15 days in advance and I think the cutoff is midnight tomorrow. I’ll try to post some details on how to do it.

Sorry @ForestHull I meant to reply to @John_Greenidge

Edit to add, here’s the link:

Glad to hear that,but it would look like the replies were because of @LeoGibbons prompt.

Sadly, Mary, the deadline for questions is 15 working days before the council meeting, so long past. One of the questions I put in was - given this is the first Mayor’s question time for six months, will they allow extra time to catch up with the backlog… ?

Hi Julia Lewisham’s website just says 15 days, not 15 working days and Kevin Flaherty confirmed (to someone else, not me) that the deadline was midnight on 6th October.

Really? That’s not what I’ve been told…

From the link I posted earlier:

“Public questions will be addressed at council meetings but you must submit your question at least 15 days before a meeting.”

And from an email I received from an amenity society chair (not Syd or FHSoc):

“It has been confirmed to me by Kevin Flaughtery that the deadline for Questions to Council is now the 6th October, midnight.”

With planning applications there are 21 days from notification allowed for comments and they’re not working days. So they have to be consistent. At least in that, if in nothing else they do!!

I also chased today, so it could have been one or the other or both. Or just a happy co-incidence

broken record alert but I just submitted a few questions about the overground and Southern… and the absence of service at weekends, or even mid-week in the case of Southern!

Councillor John Muldoon is also familiar with the area.

I sent them a message last night and both Cllr Wise and Cllr Paschoud got back to me today saying they’re aware of the situation and have spoken to the police. Both councillors will be speaking to LBL road safety officers about the junction as well.

Witnessed a family crossing here this evening. They were crossing Cranston going towards Catford (red). The family saw a gap with no cars coming. A car came along Woolstone from Catford (yellow) and as the family were crossing decided to make his turn into Cranston and got very close to them with their buggy and children. The car, seeing the pedestrian, should have waited on Woolstone until it was clear to turn and not driven at family.

The family (rightly IMO from witnessing this incident) shouted at the SUV as they were clearly worried and pointed out he should have waited. It was awful to see how brazen the Kia SUV driver was who yelled back. He was clearly in the wrong and driving dangerously but didn’t like being told this.

A meter more and this driver would have hit the pedestrians. @Lewisham_Councillors as part of the investigation you’re doing could a 24 hour camera be set up or similar just to show how awful crossing here is as a pedestrian! There are so many school kids crossing, some even solo as they become more independent. The nights are drawing in so it’s only getting more dangerous and more cars on road due to covid too. Please help.

image643×1251 129 KB

I also emailed the Perry vale councillors and had a prompt response from John and Susan. John has asked the council road safety department to comment on the stats for the junction and measures the council has considered. No response from them yet.

I don’t get the impression however that they think it’s likely anything can or will be done.

Maybe I’m wrong. But given others upthread have tried and previous petitions. If all feels a bit depressing.

Would recommend others contact them too in any case and maybe we can keep this thread going?

I am making a real effort to walk or cycle and absolutely minimise our car use, but it’s actually really horrible to cycle here, and I’m sure one day I’m going to fall whilst carrying my child in the pushchair (plus other child’s scooter) down the steps at the station underpass (yes I know I can walk around but who wants to walk along that stretch of the south circular)!

I agree petitions should not be necessary. But I don’t know how else tries to makes changes.

I know this junction is a problem and has been for a while but I feel as though a lot of driving behaviours are worse at the moment since lockdown was over. My road has full speed humps but we still have people haring down it really fast. There are skid marks in the road that you’d normally see on the motorway rather than a quiet(ish) suburban road! it’s the same on perry vale/perry rise. Can’t help but feel that this may be exacerbating the existing problem with the Cranston/woolstone junction but have no idea what can be done about it, other than a police clampdown m, which they won’t have the resources for at present.

Yet I hear cars go past on perry rise late at night and am grateful I’m not cycling home from work then but I bet some people are.

I witnessed another near miss at this junction last night about 5pm. A bike was at the bottom of Cranston Road, waiting to turn right onto Woolstone. The junction looked clear so the cyclist pulled out. He was a little slow in pulling round the corner (going from a standing start, on a wet road) and in the meantime a car came along Woolstone Road from the cyclist’s left, and had to brake to avoid hitting him. The driver beeped at the cyclist…

Due to the curve in Woolstone Road it is difficult to get a clear view all the way along the road from that junction, so in my opinion I don’t think the cyclist would have been able to see the car before he pulled out into the junction.
If the driver had not braked in time they would definitely have hit the cyclist. The car was driving at a decent speed - not excessive, but more than 20mph in my opinion.

I think cameras at that junction would be a good idea.

image1125×1266 1.07 MB

I love your infographic - very nice

I have had drivers waiting in Cranston Road shouting at me for driving too slowly up Woolstone Road!

If I am walking and need to cross Cranston Road, I go through the alley in Vancouver Road and cross there.

I haven’t had a response from the councillors or highways department since the initial reply.

I’m considering making a FOI request.

To be honest there are so many problems with with the roads around here and zero seems to be done to encourage walking or cycling.

I feel like i don’t know what the point is in focusing on one junction but I do feel like we are being let down in this area.

It’s been almost a month since I was in contact with the Perry Vale councilors about the junction.

At that time @John_Paschoud said he was chasing for data on the junction and feeder roads with the offer to share it - as a preference to me making a FOI which would cost the council money to process. He was honest that they have small staff team with extra duties arising from the pandemic emergency - presumably which just got busier…

I’ve emailed again to see if any data was found, but I expect they are really busy right now so will be patient.

Quick update - @John_Paschoud replied already and confirms he’s asked again