Thanks very much to you for this. We’ve written to Vicky Foxcroft, London City Airport and Heathrow as suggested.
@bigmacca1 Yes those low flying East-West planes are the City Airport concentrated flight path planes that I’ve been banging on about. They follow a precise route every time at low altitude which means that if you’re under the flight path on given days you will get over 100 flights passing less than 500m above you. Feel free to add your voice to the complaints to City Airport, the CAA and your local MP as detailed in posts above.
Yep. And the city airport cut and paste response is that it only happens 30% of the time (due to winds). But during that 30% its non-stop.
And as I pointed out to them, 30% is still 120 days per year of 100 planes so 12000 plus planes!
3% is a nuisance anomaly. 30% is a significant minority.
and here’s some new information. London City Airport and Heathrow Airport operate separate tracking systems, making it difficult to document the noise impact of their combined operations. But using some runway usage data obtained from London City Airport combined with observations from Heathrow’s online tracking system I have found the following for the period 16 June – 16 July 2018, ie summer when we are outdoors or windows open.
On 18/31 days, up to 150 City airport arrivals overflew south London along the concentrated flight path, that is on 58% of days, not the 30% usually quoted by London City (I suppose that’s an annual average). They overflew parts of Kent and Bexley at under 2000 feet, then residential areas of Lewisham, Southwark and Lambeth mostly around 1700 - 1800 feet.
In addition, on 7 of these 18 days, that is 23% of days in this month of observation, Heathrow arrivals overflew many of the same parts of Lewisham, Lambeth and Southwark in a slightly more dispersed pattern at around 3500 feet at the same time, starting from 5 am.
On 13/31 days we only had Heathrow arrivals but no City ones.
So no days at all for SE23 with no arrivals flying overhead and the double airport arrivals overflights are rather more frequent than I had thought.
sorry, just had to tell someone…for those whose eyes are glazing over. you can always mute this thread!
I also just emailed City back in their response to my complaint - it’s now 23.31 and within the last four minutes have had four loud overflying aircraft, at least two of which must have been from City given the height and location of the sound. It’s getting unbearable. Aircraft noise is now loud enough to routinely wake me up at 5.45 and are now still regularly and noisily overhead at 23.30 - so no respite for SE23ers living in the north of the postcode. City aircraft must be starting earlier than they are allowed to and also landing later than allowed as they are clearly flying overhead at times which do not comply with their stated overflying hours. I am just exhausted and want some sleep. Even closing our good double glazing doesn’t keep the sound out.
The amended email to City, which we will also amend and send to Heathrow and local MPs:
We would also like you to take the following into account when considering this complaint and your proposals for joint discussions with Heathrow.
Between 16 June and 16 July 2018, ie summer when we are outdoors or windows open .On 18/31 days, up to 150 City airport arrivals overflew south London along the concentrated flight path, that is on 58% of days, not the 30% usually quoted by yourselves at London City (I suppose that’s an annual average). They overflew parts of Kent and Bexley at under 2000 feet, then residential areas of Lewisham, Southwark and Lambeth mostly around 1700 - 1800 feet. Given our home is at over 700ft above sealevel, that’s 1000 foot overhead which is very loud indeed even for the smaller aircraft London City operate.
In addition, on 7 of these 18 days, that is 23% of days in this month of observation, Heathrow arrivals overflew many of the same parts of Lewisham, Lambeth and Southwark in a slightly more dispersed pattern at around 3500 feet at the same time, starting from 5 am. On 13/31 days we only had Heathrow arrivals but no City ones. So no days at all for SE23 with no arrivals flying overhead and the double airport arrivals overflights are much more frequent than your sound assessments seem to take into account.
We moved here in 2014 and since the concentration of flightpaths have experienced genuine misery in summer months. Living in a basement flat, the need for ventilation and therefore keeping windows open is more important for family health than trying to keep noise down, something which simply wasn’t an issue before.
It doesn’t feel like this complaint is being taken particularly seriously by London City - your siting of a noise beacon in Dulwich, which is much lower and not on the direct flightpath as we are and as far as we understand it also not overflown by Heathrow, suggests that you seek to find that the noise is not too bothersome.
We love to fly and do so frequently. This isn’t the complaint of people who think there should be no flights over a densely populated city. But the lack of respite from the joint operations between yourselves and Heathrow have made the narrow corridor in which we live extremely uncomfortable. We have raised this with our MP and HACAN and hope that City will consider a widening of flightpaths over a broader area in order to prevent the misery we are currently living with given the noise pollution created by the joint impact of both City and Heathrow. Please append this issue to our current complaint issue as we would appreciate a further response.
re last nights flights after 11pm I heard them too, I’ve had a quick look to see what they could have been. They were not City flights - City changed to landing from the east at about 21.40, so looks like nothing over us from them after that time.
But Heathrow were landing from the west, and therefore taking off to the south of SE23, just south of Crystal Palace Park at 6-8000 feet. They passed Crystal Palace at 23.04, 23.12, 23.15 23.20 and 23.22 and that tallies with your observations. these are big, heavy aircraft departing and climbing rapidly, making them noisy. I think Heathrow would regard them as far away from us not to be troubling. But if you have your head down, windows open and facing in their general direction as I do you would say different.
Here’s a screenshot from Heathrow’s tracking site at 23.14 showing a couple of these aircraft.
You are doing a great job Nogson.
a man needs a hobby…
They are coming up from the South and turning to head West directly over my house this morning. right now. Great big buggers, one after the other. Had to come in from the garden. Its hellish.
Just had a note from LCY - the consultation is now closed, lets see what it brings.
Thank you for your feedback on London City Airport’s Noise Action Plan 2018-2023. The consultation has now ended and all responses are being fully considered. A summary of how feedback has been incorporated into the document will be made available as an appendix to the final version, which will be published on the website later this year.
I finally had a response, more than a month after sending my comments - “all responses are being fully considered” - we’ll see.
Had my acknowledgement today too. I have learned informally that City received 37 responses to the consultation. Their initial look at these indicated that the top three concerns were 1. the concentrated flight paths 2. the heights of aircraft, especially in SE London and 3. a desire for more noise monitors.
37 seems a low response - but not surprising since the consultation was hidden in a corner of their website. I think that SE London has made an impact though! From what people have said on here a fair number of SE23 Lifers responded.
Good that we are making ourselves heard. Whether they change anything from the draft is the measure though isn’t it? Is the consultation a weary regulatory duty imposed on them by Newham, or is City Airport really interested in addressing community concerns?
Meanwhile I have been invited to give a presentation to the Heathrow Community Noise Forum next week (following publication of my report, ‘No aircraft noise respite for London SE23’). An opportunity to put our points across in another influential place - the forum is chaired by a Heathrow director, and is attended by CAA, NATS and other air industry organisations. Don’t think City Airport attends though.
Incredible amount of hard work gone in on your part Tim.
Good luck with your presentation to the Heathrow Community Noise Forum.
Relentless noise this morning from 4.30ish. Really hope all these efforts bear fruit.
I asked for info about the consultation to go on Lewisham Council website … as you would expect, I’m still waiting to hear about that, after the consultation has closed.
Quite sure this event did not happen over our airspace - but it looks so very dangerous.
Despite the encounter between the aircraft being visually spectacular, it seems nothing dangerous has occurred as it has all got something to do with “Reduced Vertical Separation Minimum”
BALPA says, 'It appears in this video that there is at least 1,000ft vertical separation, in which case this situation is perfectly safe.
As mentioned in an earlier post I wrote to Ellie Reeves MP on this issue. She’s kindly passed on the response she received from Baroness Sugg. Sadly the response is predictably generic and unhelpful and doesn’t give me any confidence that local concerns will ever receive genuine consideration… but for what it’s worth I’ve pasted the text below:
"Thank you for your email of 24 August to the Secretary of State, enclosing an email from your constituent, about aviation noise over your constituency. I am replying as Minister responsible for aviation.
As you will be aware from my letter to you dated 24 July, the changes your constituent is referring to are part of Phase 1a of the London Airspace Management Programme (LAMP) to modernise the UK’s airspace…
Lewisham is impacted by aircraft arriving at Heathrow when the airport is on westerly operations (around 70% of the time, and wind direction dependent). Aircraft arriving at Heathrow are required by Air Traffic Control (ATC) to join the airport’s Instrument Landing System (ILS) at least 7 nautical miles (nm) from the airport, and at a height of at least 2,500 feet. The ILS is essentially a navigational beam that extends east and west of Heathrow’s runways and it is used to safety guide aircraft to the touchdown point.
The international standard ILS glide path angle is 3° and, as a result, aircraft must be at a set height for a given distance from touchdown. Whilst Lewisham is not directly under the ILS beam, it is close to it, and although the area is further than 7nm from Heathrow Airport, ATC does sometimes require aircraft to join the ILS at greater distances to ensure safe separation of aircraft.
Going forward, the Government is working with NATS and the CAA on a major airspace modernisation programme which is mainly aimed at southern England, including Heathrow airport. The use of new technologies and procedures offers considerable potential to improve the overall efficiency of our airspace which will benefit the airports, airlines and their passengers, as well as the overall environmental performance of the industry. The environmental benefits of modernisation include enabling aircraft to climb higher quicker, allowing aircraft to descend at sharper angles, reducing the amount of stacking, and for the provision of flightpaths offering respite or relief from aircraft noise. We aim to publish the outline airspace modernisation plan by the end of this year and the timetable for implementation is 2023/4.
With regards to the interaction between flightpaths for London Heathrow and London City airports, it is possible that the implementation of City’s new flightpaths in 2016 could have led to a change in how aircraft were guided by air traffic control in the area. This could in turn have changed the noise impacts experienced in Forest Hill. This type of change will potentially be in scope of the new “Planned and Permanent Redistribution” policy, yet to come into force, but which will put in place a CAA approval process for air traffic control changes which have a noise impact similar to a full flightpath change. This issue was discussed at September’s Heathrow Community Noise Forum and I want to assure you that my department is currently taking steps to ensure the smooth introduction of the new policy.
I hope you and your constituent find this reply helpful."