Aircraft noise


#195

Just an acknowledgement, no reply as yet


#196

A response literally just arrived! Very very lengthy, zero help that I can see, think it was posted on 18th June by @ThorNogson but most important line is "There is an opportunity for you to contact the CAA direct on this matter with any statements or objections, by emailing infoservices@caa.co.uk "


#197

I would be happy to be involved with any action to help improve air traffic noise in se23 and SE26. I was woke up this morning at 5.30am with constant noise of planes above.


#198

Many thanks to Tim Walker, a local resident, who has done an immense job on monitoring and collating evidence:

" … an important report by Forest Hill resident Tim Walker outlining what happens when London City and Heathrow airports combine to create community noise hotspots in south east London."

http://www.hacaneast.org.uk/news/

“South East London – No Respite from aircraft noise”

http://hacan.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/No-aircraft-noise-respite-for-London-SE23-August-2018.pdf

Why a local resident has to do this work, rather than the salaried Environmental Health Officers who are supposed to be monitoring noise problems and looking after our well-being …


#199

This is a fantastic report - what would be useful is if someone could summarise in one post what people can do to take action now - including details of any e-mail addresses or online forms - I assume this should include at least City Airport, Civil Aviation Authority and relevant local politicians and London Assembly Representatives?


#200

Great idea, very much a personal view, but it’s a start, and maybe others could add to this by editing it as new opportunities come along…

Aircraft Noise over SE23 - Actions with current deadlines

When it comes to what to say, make good use of the campaigners who are trying to keep abreast of the issues - there are some suggested sources at the end.

1. City airport noise management plan consultation 2018-23, by 5th September.
Why? Because this is a once in 5 years plan they are obliged to consult on.
Email to :- environment@londoncityairport.com

What to say?
HACAN East is on top of the issues and has made a response. You could use or back up their arguments. Simply repeating the points you agree with is fine, your voice adds priceless weight to the campaign.

You could add that their consultation is not nearly wide enough, and should be widely publicised across areas affected by their low altitude concentrated flight paths (Southwark, Lewisham, Bexley, Kent all at under 2000feet).
For SE23 specific arguments see below.

2. Grant Schapps MP, soon – they are compiling terms of reference now
Why?
Because he will be chairing a Parliamentary enquiry into the CAA’s airspace change process. A chance to let him/them know issues that concern residents - get our voices heard. They are currently compiling terms of reference.
What to say.
Things about concentrated flight paths, lack of coordination of respite between airports, and the need for noise respite to be included in flight path planning.

Actions with no current deadline

1. Write a complaint about noise to City Airport
Why? Every complaint is logged and has to be reported on. Every complaint adds pressure to respond and take action. You will get a fairly standard response.
What to say . Use your own experience of City planes and how they affect you. Maybe complain that they need to work with Heathrow on flight noise issues, areas like ours are overflown by both sets of planes at the same time.
email: environment@londoncityairport.com

2. Write to your MP
Why? A bulging postbag on aircraft noise lets your MP know that the issue is important, and helps him/her prioritise, familiarise with the issues and be prepared to intervene when the opportunity arises – eg on issues to do with concentrated flight path noise, the CAA, NATS and the 2 airports.
What to say?
Let your MP know of your own concerns about Aircraft noise. Express the hope that he/she shares your concerns. Point your MP towards arguments you agree with – see info sources below.

There are 3 Lewisham MPs.
ellie.reeves.mp@parliament.uk
(Ellie voted against the 3rd runway)
vicky.foxcroft.mp@parliament.uk
janet.daby.mp@parliament.uk

3. Write a complaint about noise to Heathrow Airport
Why? Every complaint is logged and has to be reported on. Every complaint adds pressure to respond and take action. You will get a fairly standard response.
What to say? Apart from impact on your life, something about the need for respite in our area, and the need for joint respite planning with City Airport.
noise@heathrow.com

4. Write a complaint about flight paths to the Civil Aviation Authority
Why? Complaint numbers will help CAA realise that they should not just be accountable to airlines and businesses. They are about to be hauled in front of a Parliamentary enquiry.
What to say? Your experience of concentred City flight paths and being overflown by City and Heathrow planes at the same time. Ask that CAA take responsibility for planning residential respite from aircraft noise.
Directorate of Airspace Policy, K6 G7, CAA House, 45-59 Kingsway, London WC2B 6TE
Email: complaints@caa.co.uk

5. London Assembly
The Mayor of London joined in the clamour against concentrated flight paths (July 2017), but not his top priority.
Caroline Pidgeon (chair LA transport group) has campaigned against concentrated flight paths.
Caroline Russell (LA member) is also a strong ally in aircraft noise campaigning.

Information Sources

I do not presume to tell anyone what to say, but to save time here are some suggestions.

  1. HACAN East have a good handle on key issues that policy makers need to know that people care about. I summarise some points made by them relevant to SE23.

In its 2018-23 Noise Management Plan, London City should:-

Commit to informing all residents within the 51 and 54 contour areas – and their elected representatives - of the latest airport developments on a regular basis
confirm whether it can commit to the retention of the existing cap and operating hours through the years 2018 to 2023
Look again at the concentrated flight paths, with a view to providing respite for communities
Commit to doubling the number of noise monitors
Explore the possibility of London City aircraft flying higher
Spell out cooperative working with Heathrow

  1. The recently published report ‘ South East London- no respite for aircraft noise’ published by HACAN and currently on the front page of their website, explains in detail what is happening over our heads in SE23 and makes proposals for who needs to do what. http://hacan.org.uk/

Summary conclusions

  • The accumulated noise levels of flights over SE23 are too high; they interrupt sleep, leisure and work alike to an unacceptable and avoidable level.
  • The frequency of flights over SE23 is too high. Both City and Heathrow contribute. They need to cooperate and create joint residential respite planning to avoid clashes of their routes and their differing runway policies from creating community noise blackspots.
  • The City flights are too low. As little as 1300 feet/400metres above ground level is far too low for aircraft over residential areas nearly 15 miles flight distance from the airport. They could fly at least 1000 ft higher for much longer before their final approach.
  • The Heathrow flights are also too low. They could fly at least 1000ft higher for much longer on their approach, creating more space underneath for City aircraft, on concentrated flight paths or not, to fly higher for longer.
  • City’s concentrated flight paths – the aircraft superhighway- has created a miserable experience on the ground for the same residents day after day. It should be ended and flights dispersed over a wide geographical area until a far better plan has been developed, consulted on and agreed.
  • The Department for Transport, Ministers, Civil Aviation Authority, NATS, Mayor of London, London Assembly and Borough Councils should offer ownership and leadership of residential respite, accountable to residents and their representatives, not just to airports, airlines and big business.

(declaration of interest- I wrote this report)


#201

This is great, thank you. I have e-mailed Ellie Reeves (in addition to the complaints I had already sent to CAA and London City). Please can I urge anyone else who is at all concerned by this to send emails to each of CAA, London City and their MP. It only takes a couple of mins and the same e-mail can be used for each. To make it super easy I’ve pasted a template below which people can adapt and personalise:

Dear [ ]

Are you aware of the concerns among residents of South East London, particularly in Lewisham, regarding the ever increasing aircraft noise caused by the combined effects of City Airport and Heathrow flight paths?

In particular, the introduction by City Airport of concentrated flight paths in 2016 has caused utter misery for residents living under these flight paths who are now subjected to incessant noise from low flying (often <1500 feet above ground level) large commercial jets between 0600-2300. The noise is loud enough to interrupt sleep and conversations and as many as 150 planes a day (not including the Heathrow traffic) overfly a specific route each day, meaning the same residents are affected without respite. When combined with the up to 160 daily flights into Heathrow which pass over Lewisham it is clear that SE London now has an aircraft noise problem that needs to be recognised and addressed.

You will be aware that noise intrusion has been demonstrated to have negative health effects, particularly on mental health, stress, anxiety etc. Furthermore, it is a breach of individuals’ human rights, specifically:

Article 8 ECHR - Right to respect for one’s private and family life and home.
Protocol 1 Article 1 ECHR - Right to peaceful enjoyment of one’s property

A local resident has recently prepared a comprehensive report on the issue of aircraft noise in Lewisham (link below). Please would you review the full report and let me have your response. I have pasted the key findings of the report below for convenience.

Full report - http://hacan.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/No-aircraft-noise-respite-for-London-SE23-August-2018.pdf

  • The accumulated noise levels of flights over SE23 are too high; they interrupt sleep, leisure and work alike to an unacceptable and avoidable level.
  • The frequency of flights over SE23 is too high. Both City and Heathrow contribute. They need to cooperate and create joint residential respite planning to avoid clashes of their routes and their differing runway policies from creating community noise blackspots.
  • The City flights are too low. As little as 1300 feet/400metres above ground level is far too low for aircraft over residential areas nearly 15 miles flight distance from the airport. They could fly at least 1000 ft higher for much longer before their final approach.
  • The Heathrow flights are also too low. They could fly at least 1000ft higher for much longer on their approach, creating more space underneath for City aircraft, on concentrated flight paths or not, to fly higher for longer.
  • City’s concentrated flight paths – the aircraft superhighway- has created a miserable experience on the ground for the same residents day after day. It should be ended and flights dispersed over a wide geographical area until a far better plan has been developed, consulted on and agreed.
  • The Department for Transport, Ministers, Civil Aviation Authority, NATS, Mayor of London, London Assembly and Borough Councils should offer ownership and leadership of residential respite, accountable to residents and their representatives, not just to airports, airlines and big business

Yours sincerely,


#202

some excellent news to report. I learned today that a subcommittee at City Airport have decided to install one of their mobile noise monitors somewhere in Forest Hill. I understand their awareness of noise issues in Forest Hill is at least partly because of the number of complaints/letters coming from our area. So a big pat on the back for everyone, especially SE23 Lifers, who has picked up their keyboards and written to City Airport.

A small step forward, but quite a significant one, because it will be the first time they have monitored noise outside the immediate vicinity of the airport in Newham.

There are still a few days left for more of us to join the SE23 fanfare, by commenting on City Airport’s Noise Management Plan consultation, see @stepover excellent post above this one. Deadline is 5th Sept.


#203

Great news! And thanks @ThorNogson for leading the way on this. I think it’s essential the noise monitor is installed somewhere on the concentrated City Airport flight path otherwise the results won’t be representative.

Just as a further update I got a nice response from Ellie Reeves MP to my letter and she confirmed she was writing to the Transport Secretary to pass on mine and other local complaints and seek an explanation.


#204

Thank you to everyone for the advice here. I have added my voice to my MP, City, Heathrow and CAA

I do hope this makes the difference we all want (was rather embarrassed having our first guest stay in the spare room last night when I realised how many planes we are getting early morning)


#205

But I like planes. I can’t believe you lot are all going to spoil my plane spotting hobby. :roll_eyes:

I do however remember living in Richmond 20 years ago and the 10pm Concorde used to come over so you’d miss the news headlines and the window frames would rattle.

Anyway I do honestly like the planes but I really don’t see why Heathrow/City can’t co-ordinate so they don’t have both overhead at the same time. If they’re landing at Heathrow from the East then they can land at City from the East too. Why is that so hard. And it somehow bugs me to see 2 planes in the sky in relatively the same place.

I think 3 inbound Heathrow flights flew over as I wrote this.


#206

thank you @thornogson for all your efforts


#207

I think this must be a pretty localised problem. We live off Thorpewood Avenue, above FH library, and have had no special issues with aircraft noise recently.


#208

This is partly the point: the introduction of concentrated flight paths by City Airport mean all their inbound planes fly low over the same narrow corridor (essentially following the south circular from Catford) which for Forest Hill means that if you live to the north of the station you are subjected to unrelenting plane noise, whereas if you live to the south of the station it’s probably less noticeable.

I think everyone here accepts that living in London involves accepting noise as a daily part of life; the question is whether aircraft flight paths should be spread out so that everyone endures a bit of noise but with everyone also getting respite (which was the case until 2016) or whether the airports can concentrate flight paths subjecting the same people to unrelenting noise (post 2016).


#209

Had an enjoyable sunny afternoon at Horniman Gardens yesterday afternoon - but in just the short time I was there, over 20 London City aircraft flew exactly the same line directly overhead, almost exactly 400m above our heads (using City’s own data). They are quite noisy (I have measured some at over 70 decibels) for about 30 seconds each time.

I realise many people don’t notice, or don’t mind. But City Airport is ambitious and plans to expand, their planes are going to get bigger and more frequent. Is this just not too low for aircraft to fly over SE23?


#210

Given the constraint on planes from City Airport and their need to be able to avoid the QE2 bridge that seems slightly unrealistic. More frequent, sure. Bigger, not so much.


#211

really they will be - see below quote from their Noise Management Plan. They say they will be quieter, but then again they seem to think flying 400m above our heads in a concentrated flight path is ok…

In July 2016 LCY’s planning application The City Airport Development Plan (CADP) (LBN ref: 13/01228/FUL) was granted planning permission for eight new aeroplane parking stands – to accommodate larger yet quieter next generation aircraft – a parallel taxiway to optimise runway capacity during peak operating hours and a terminal extension to ensure that LCY’s convenience and speed-oftransit propositions are maintained.


#212

Not sure if I understand the issue, if they are quieter, which is the way general aviation is going, then it matter not how many fly over.


#213

The frequency of overflights is one issue, but only when they create intrusive noise disturbance on the ground. I have few objections to silent aircraft. Combined with electric cars we can perhaps look forward to a more peaceful future.
I still think 400 m is too low - maybe there’s a safety issue to explore there too.


#214

Dont normally comment about Air-planes flying over, But i must say in the last 2-3 days they have been a Pain ? Seem to be as early as 5am to right through the day, Particularly Saturday as i was in the Garden for a few hours.
Every time the same route it appeared coming over our house East -West . VERY LOW??

Give use a break that time of a morning to have a weekend lay in ?

If its not the Planes ,Its the Milkman, or the Builders or in our street the Bloody Dustman on a Tuesday ? Now you’ve really got me RANTING…