Change of use for 66 Honor Oak Park (Honor Oak Supermarket)

I am one of the three friends who have applied to change the use of 66 Honor Oak Park from a minimart to a local neighbourhood bar.

Our planning application was refused by the council in December last year; however, we have had our appeal validated and we’re hoping that the final decision will be one to celebrate in the near future.

Thank you to everyone who is supporting us and the time and energy you have given throughout the whole process, we are truly so grateful.

Many Thanks,
Kate

As a HOP local I am really excited about the idea of a new bar in our high street. I liked the original plans and was one of those that wrote to the council to question their refusal. With the arrival of Sainsbury there’s no need for the minimarts anymore, and a smart new bar will be so much better for the look and feel of the high street.

Best of luck Kate.

For those interested in the application, here it is on the council website:

http://planning.lewisham.gov.uk/online-applications/applicationDetails.do?activeTab=summary&keyVal=_LEWIS_DCAPR_79709

… and some excerpts of the proposed layout and frontage:

Screen Shot 2016-05-17 at 23.39.03.png1222×340 95.5 KB

Screen Shot 2016-05-17 at 23.39.34.png1596×996 199 KB

I really hope the council see sense & grant you change of use Kate, I think you guys would be a great asset to HOP.

Very best of luck & I’ve got my fingers crossed for you x

I think it is good that the council try to protect A1 retail on high streets and local shopping areas such as Honor Oak Park.
There is a danger of high streets dying if there is too much A2, A5, B1, B2 or residential conversions. Even A3/A4 can lead to a dead high street during the day.
However, Honor Oak has relatively recently seen the conversion of the Honor Oak Tandoori into Sainsburys so there is more A1 than previously. And if anybody thought that the new Sainsburys would not lead to the loss of some smaller A1 units, they were kidding themselves.

I also wrote in your favour - we really need a nice watering hole and it would be a distinctive addition to the high street. Good luck!

We agree that it’s important to have a mix of uses to promote a vibrant high street but as you say @ArthurPint, things have changed since the arrival of Sainsburys. There is no way that we would have gone as far as to appeal if it hadn’t been for the positive response from local people at the idea of a new neighbourhood bar in HOP. We are particularly grateful to the current owners who have been incredibly patient throughout the entire process and we feel we have built a good relationship with over the past year.

Hi Kate,
I’d gladly support a bar in HOP. A wine bar would be especially nice . Do you plan to open during the day or just in the evenings?

Thanks Liz,
Our plan is to open from Monday to Thursday 4pm to 11pm, Friday 4pm to 12am, Saturday 12pm to 12am, Sunday 12pm to 11pm. We won’t have a kitchen so we will be plan to offer an assortment of nibbles.
Offering a choice of wine is definitely part of our plan
We would like to host regular wine tastings with a different focus each time so people can try wine they may not have had before. Thanks so much for the suggestion, it is so great to hear what people would like.

you’re speaking my language now - still a bit further from home for me than I’d ideally like, but looking forward to hearing more

@thirstforwine Thanks so much we will definitely let you know as soon as we hear any news from the inspectors. Thanks to everyone for all the lovely comments. We’re really enjoying this new forum @anon5422159 thanks so much for inviting us to post

This sounds like a very exciting project and would be a welcome addition to the high-street. Fingers crossed for you!

Sarah

Sounds great! Would you ever consider opening in the daytime though as I think HOP is majorly missing a place to hang out and have a decent coffee/ glass of wine at lunch?

Thank you so much for asking about our opening hours @Emily_Rich. Initially we plan to open at 4pm from Monday to Friday and from 12pm on Saturdays, Sundays and bank holidays. We decided on these opening hours, taking into account the hours and offerings of other local businesses, however, once we are open and if there is a demand to, we will consider opening earlier. We will be offering a variety of drinks, which will include coffee, tea and hot chocolate as well as a selection of soft drinks, wines, beers and spirits. We have ideas about the specific products we will have available and we gratefully welcome any suggestions.

I know @Kate personally & can vouch that her plans for this new place will be totally amazing for #HOP I’d love to have her & the gang in #FH But you have all the pleasure #HOP so get supporting her on her fantastic venture!

Got everything crossed for you @Kate. Xx

Thank you @Pauline you’ve helped us so much and we’re ever so grateful. We have all our fingers crossed for you guys too. Been thinking of you lots and keep checking for any updates. So looking forward to working with you in the future

No worries @Kate thank you xx incase anyone doesn’t know what Kate is supporting me in, it’s our library & they are willing to pitch in & get involved! @Kate I’l let you know about all updates as soon as I get them x

Looks like the Appeal Inspector just dismissed the appeal on the basis of:

• “The effect of the proposal on the vitality and viability of the Honor Oak Park local shopping parade; and”
• “The effect of the proposal on the living conditions of neighbouring residents, having particular regard to noise and disturbance.”

Really sorry to see this news, @Kate

There were many of us that supported your plans for the bar, and who felt that a bar would bring more vitality and viability than a dwindling mini-mart opposite Sainsbury.

I wonder what will replace the mini-mart now, if/when it closes down?

Indeed, though it is the Appeal Inspector not Lewisham Planning who have reached this latest decision. Part of the reason for failure is that there was insufficient evidence of attempts to market it as anything else:
http://planning.lewisham.gov.uk/online-applications/files/57C7C91F89354BD653A02ED52FE259B6/pdf/DC_15_92715--465889.pdf

Am intrigued, though by the following paragraph, and actually wonder whether the inspector really visited the site:

"10. However, between the appeal site and Grierson Road nos. 68-70, 72 and 76-78
are all in Class A3/A4 use. The proposal would therefore create a cluster of
non-retail uses on the northern side of the parade. Whilst bars and night-time
uses can add to the vibrancy of a parade, the adjacent ‘Stonebar’ only opens
during the evenings and is closed on Sundays and Mondays. The ‘Old Bank’
also remains shut until midday. When bearing in mind that the appeal proposal
would not open until 16:00 hours either, the concentration of non-retail uses
on this part of the parade would create an inactive frontage into the late
afternoon. In doing so, I agree with the Council that it would lead to an
imbalance of uses, and that the cumulative effect of nos. 66-70 being closed
for large parts of the day would have a detrimental effect on the vitality and
vibrancy of the local shopping parade. "

@Brett That is slightly odd. Apart from school kids returning home what goes on a 4pm during the week?

Well a fair bit actually but my point is really that the businesses mentioned no longer exist and do not operate in the same way.

OK, fair enough. I see your point though. It is slightly odd. My own experience with Lewisham planning a few years ago was interesting to say the least. Putting in planning in the next few days. Not looking forward to that.

Well agree with that but this is at a level above Lewisham Planning. The Appeal Inspector acts for the Secretary of State so all the more surprising that the existing business involved does not appear to have done their homework.

I’m really sorry to hear this @Kate

Due to what @Brett has pointed out, is there anyway another appeal can be put to LC stating this?

No (caveat: am not a legal expert but have been on receiving end of this before). This is not to do with Lewisham Council any more, it is a legal issue. There are limited grounds to appeal an appeal but you have to be quick and have watertight basis, I think there may be a short period for judicial review possible. Other than that the only body that can overturn this decision is the High Court.

If the bar is a forlorn hope, my wife suggested a shop selling food, spices etc of various ethnicities – Asian, Oriental, E European, Mediterranean, N African… That could work, and tap a demand not addressed by, or of interest to, Sainsburys. We’d shop there anyway!

I would travel to that fro FH. Given the expansion of home cooked food I would suggest it may work. Anything for somewhere that sells Thai basil.

Thanks so much @anon5422159 and @Pauline. Sorry, we’ve been meaning to write an update since we heard the news but Em, Tibi and I have only just had the chance to get together to talk about what to do next since we heard
Reading through your comments we were also surprised by the comment about ‘Stonebar’ and we were curious about the following statements too, particularly when the site visit was supposedly done on a Monday morning.

7. At the time of my site visit, which was carried out on a weekday morning, Honor Oak Park was busy with traffic and pedestrians. Nearly all of the shops were open, including the appeal premises. No vacant units were observed and the parade appeared to be a healthy, vibrant one.
8. Situated on the opposite side of the street to the appeal site is a ‘Sainsbury’s Local’ convenience store. The parade also includes other off-licences and shops providing a range of everyday goods and services. Alternative shopping facilities are therefore available within 400m of the site as required by DM Policy 16(a).

We are so grateful for the support we’ve had from everyone and touched by the comments we’ve received from people giving up their time to help us.
We’re very sorry that the decision is such. We would like to thank the current owners who have been incredibly patient through the long and painful process.
We are very much looking forward to continuing to being part of the community as we work/socialise in SE23 and nearby. We are looking for opportunities should an A3/4 unit become available at some point in the near future.
A huge thank you to everyone. Be great to see you at the Sylvan for drinks next Thursday.
Em @EmBrand, Tibi and Kate

I really hope you take this further if possible & I’m behind you all the way!

Kate, there is a premises with the right usage a few shops down from me x

The problem is some work would need doing before the actual cost of a normal shopfit.

Maybe, and I’m happy to help if I can, a crowdfunder or something similar could find the funds for this work.

My guess is about 10k is needed. It would mean that you would be in FH & not HOP if this worked.

I’d love you as a shop neighbour if this worked out.

I’m a very optimistic person & think 10k would be able to be raised for a great addition to the local area (and I do have a few ideas) what do others think?

Kate & co want this premises in this particular location for their own reasons. Unfortunately, their proposals [apparently] didn’t meet the planning criteria and it’s really tough to take. I’ve been there.

Sure it’s really gutting but IMO, instead of wallowing in anyone’s sympathy and/or handouts, they should get straight back up and carefully examine the local planning rules, the precise reasons for refusal and the exact wording of the Appeal dismissal - vs - their business model, and look at possible ways of tweaking and adapting to make it fit. Running the business alongside a complimentary retail operation would be my first line of thought.

I like your thinking @Anotherjohn. Something along the lines of Hop Burns and Black, or the Beer Shop in Nunhead would be fab!

Exactly!

A good wine shop on HOP would be very welcome!

Thanks all for your suggestions. @Pauline, you have been so helpful and your idea is definitely something we will discuss. @CHfigaro @Brett @Anotherjohn, the idea of a beer shop is something that we have discussed and again we will be considering over the next few weeks. Although we were very keen on HOP, we are not opposed to other nearby locations, particularly if we end up changing our business plan.

I beershop

Just signed up to say something along the lines of Hop Burns & Black would be amazing

Really gutted for you (and me! I was looking forward to enjoying your place). Good luck with the business planning - we obviously eat in FH a lot.

If you stock up on very dry rosé and make cocktails that can rival mine and my wife’s then we will be there ALL the time.