Coffee shops and takeaway cups

Saw this fantastic statement from an independent business in Wales today, and it made me wonder if other such shops are taking a similar stance.

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Both they and another local shop were selling reusable cups.

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Can even be unique.

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Hmm. Whilst I applaud them for encouraging cup reuse, it is not always a practical proposition. I don’t understand why more shops don’t just use biodegradable cups.

Wow. What a great stance for this shop to take. I’ve got two reusable cups; one at work and one at home and now I’ve got them I can’t buy a coffee unless I have one. I think it’s an easy change for people to make and would have a big impact on the environment. It works for me but appreciate it may not for others. But I do thing soon it’ll be a social taboo to have a plastic water bottle or disposable coffee cup.

Brands like keepcup or frankgreen do really lovely designs and the drinking experience is actually nicer from a keepcup than a disposable I find.

This is the issue for me. I don’t carry a bag around with me, so I have no way of storing the cup.

I think biodegradable cups are a better idea. I don’t mind paying a bit more for my coffee if required.

Might be wrong, but i’m pretty sure the reason is manufacturers struggle to make coffee cups biodegradable. Something about the waterproof membrane coating the paper cup. It’s difficult to separate the two in the recycling process.

Maybe one of the answers is to also cut our consumption of coffee on the go. Or for you to start carrying a bag. I don’t mean that flippantly. We have to change our behaviours.

There are compostable coffee cups available, which are different in structure to the disposable cups that we see every day. I am not sure if the compostable cups (walls lined with plant-based PLA rather than plastic) are recyclable, but it would be a step in the right direction for the coffee shops.

I’m sure that high street coffee shops will miraculously find a solution to the current disposable coffee cups soon if their margins are squeezed.

Genuine question: If we throw a compostable cup in landfill is the planet actually any better off than if we throw a standard one in? If so, why?

article from @anon5422159 states

Sometimes, even banana peels don’t decompose once they reach the landfill. For sanitary reasons, modern landfills are lined on the bottom with clay and plastic to keep waste from escaping into the soil and are covered daily with a layer of earth to reduce odor. The landfill, then, acts like a trash tomb—the garbage within receives little air, water, or sunlight. This means that even readily degradable waste objects, including paper and food scraps, are more likely to [mummify]

My interpretation of your answer is that, in landfill (alongside tons of 1000 year plastic), it’s not going to make much difference, and they would be much better kept out of it.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Stojo-Collapsible-Coffee-Cup-Silicone/dp/B0150TEVBO?th=1

Here is a photo of a man demonstrating how it won’t fit in his jeans pocket.

Interesting points on both sides I have to say. It is amazing how quickly we learned to carry bags with us when they started charging for carry out bags, hopefully the same can happen, and other small businesses can take up the challenge too.
I realise of course that it can be damaging to a business too.

The whole pay more for the convenience of the situation is similar to the ULEZ… It doesn’t actually fix the problem, it just taxes it. Which on certain issues is fine, on others less so.

Heaven knows what the answer to the situation is, but I for one was impressed with this stance.

Funny you should mention coffee grounds…

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Interesting use for them, also in the same shop.

Not necessarily comparable, but the “pay more for the convenience” strategy has made a huge difference to plastic bag waste - even with a charge of just 5p:

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Indeed, as I said.
We CAN change our behaviour when it suits us.
The difference here is less people are using them, and more people take bags to the shops with them.

Could the coffee (tea) and water markets see a change too, with people carrying a container with them, saving them 10p on a coffee, or getting free water top ups whenever needed.

Can I ask why? I can’t think of any day-to-day situation where I couldn’t carry a bag.

Also, there is no such thing as a man-bag. They are just bags.

I would say for a lot of consumers, carrying a bag is a daily thing. Especially the commuters. Backpacks, messenger bags etc galore.

There are of course always times when you will be unprepared, just as with the supermarket carrier bags, and for those times there is a chargeable provision.

But there is definitely scope for some progress on this matter. Could the commuters lead the charge.

Also worth noting that the silicone feeling cup lid also seals a lot better and becomes less of a spill hazard.

Just need someone or something to make them trendy and must have.

While it may seem easy to compare plastic bags to disposable cups, I don’t buy it.

On the odd occasion I’m in a grocery store and don’t have a reusable/cloth bag, or have enough bags (there was a sale on tinned tomatoes) my penalty is 5p.

If I fancy a coffee to take into the park at lunch and forgot my reusable cup, at that Welsh business my penalty would be around £10.

ETA to add I have a reusable cup. Here it is. I also have a bag I use for work. The bulky reusable cup doesn’t always fit when my work bag is full of paperwork and electronics. Sometimes, the top comes off and next thing I know there’s remnants of coffee.

And when I’m not at work I can’t think why, unless necessary I would want to carry a bag. I have pockets.

My issue with this is the removal of choice.

No mate, not the comparison to be made really. You can buy a hessian bag for life for £10, or if you forget it, pay the penalty and buy a 5p bag.

Same applies to the grand scheme of things for the coffee shops. The Alpine Lodge is taking a very strong stand, but it’s not the only way to go.
Maybe it was a bad example to use.

I would say the right way to go is the same as the supermarket, have a single use option, but simply discourage people from using it.

I agree their approach is too draconian. They could still offer the reusable cup, but for the 10p penalty.

Of course, a cup of coffee is not an essential, and you could just forgo the drink if you forget your cup.

Perhaps we can discuss this more in depth when I’ve missed my morning coffee.

Am I missing the 5p alternative that that coffee shop is offering?

I agree it is at the extreme end of the scale, but that said the business is very passionate about the environment. Thankfully for them they are in a position to squeeze harder than some others.

The solution (for now at least) is indeed the 10p penalty disposable option.

I’d survive a day without coffee, but people around me would not.

No, as I say, this is the extreme end of the scale. As I have said, an option needs to exist, especially for new customers, tourists etc

If it was the only way you could get a cup of coffee while out, it would then be necessary. What we consider necessary must change. Either it’s necessary you have a cup of coffee while away from home and you carry a cup and therefore a bag, or it is not necessary and you forgo the coffee.

I think the reluctance of men to carry bags at all times is relevant to this discussion. I never leave the house without a bag, but it is a socially accepted norm that women do this (because we don’t have useful pockets, but that’s another discussion). If it becomes the social norm that we all carry reusable cups and cutlery etc (which women of my acquaintance already do, because they already carry bags) maybe the norm for men will change also.

I frequently carry a bag with me when I am travelling on public transport etc, especially in the summer. Not enough pockets.
They are not for everyone of course.

Either way, I STILL think promoting use of reusables is a positive way to go, and can’t wait to see who is first to get on board. Chains or independents? Are any of our independent coffee shops offering using reusables, or are the ones I see people with from home?

I believe the @TheArchieParker already offer a discount on filling reusable cups, unless my memory is faulty.

If that is the case, super kudos to them
I rarely use coffee shops, but when I do its a drink in thing, so rather out of touch with the whole cup thing lol.

Not a bad price. Surely an option for those able to change their habits.

Loads of options out there, sizes, shapes, and colours.

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Why is everyone staring at me?

Even better, get a nespresso machine. Then you don’t have the impact on the environment of the coffee shop as a whole. The staff, electricity, water, fuel, delivery trucks etc. And you save money.

Love my Nespresso machine, but:

There’s no arguing with that. Should the government wish to regulate in such a manner then I hope they are consistent with other similar efforts… removal of the 5p bag option or indeed all plastic bags in grocery stores?

Pret a Manger give a great 50p discount for using a reusable cup.

I better get a bigger bag.

Nespresso pods are a big problem, in both their manufacture and disposal. I have recycled pods in the past, but it’s a faff and I don’t think many users do.

I have a bean-to-cup machine that makes an espresso in roughly the same time as loading and brewing from a pod. It’s a big initial outlay but there are three people in this house who use it in the morning as an alternative to buying takeout on their way to work.

Indeed it is and one worth having! I do often find my pockets full of my stuff and my wife’s (on the occasion she doesn’t carry a bag). I probably could have carried a disposable cup otherwise

I guess we both prefer to be unencumbered by bags if possible (less a social construct, more of a lifestyle choice). I do also have a habit of carrying a 3 year old which does weigh in on the equation. I do carry a bag in a bag so that fits in a pocket. The collapsible cup up-thread is an interesting option.

Hahahaha, so wrong.

It’s great to see this initiative from the coffee shops. And it’s important to remember that it’s not just about a business of the government to take responsibility on this. Without customer engagement these initiatives can’t prosper.
Personally if I go for a coffee I take my time to enjoy it in a ceramic cup, it tastes better and you don’t need to trash the planet just for “convenience”

This BBC report about italian style coffee drinking it’s great.

Yes saw that but the picture is misleading. Real Italian coffee is an espresso and gone in a flash.

Hah!

Yes, I understand your point. That’s why the people interviewed explain that it’s a ritual, and great when you do it with friends. I enjoyed that a lot when I lived there.
However, independently of the quick expresso sometimes it’s cool to take a break and sit for a few minutes to enjoy cappuccino, “latte” or any coffee you like.

Oh I agree, completely with you!

Waitrose are about to phase out their paper coffee cups (that are currently used for mostly free coffee). I think they have a re-usable one for £3 so suspect this will become a standard sooner rather than later.

I do carry a bag and I do have a few reusable cups for if I want to take a drink out with me. But I hate carrying the cup around; you get the odd drip left behind and there are limited places to wash it out. Could all coffee shops have one of those bar ‘glass washers’ to rinse out your cup? It’s fine if you only have americanos but as soon as you add anything with foamed milk, it gets a bit more tricky to get refills without a proper wash.

Would be cool if there was a way to hygienically exchange the cup each time it was used. Especially for generic designs at the same shop.

I guess if you use various different ones then that would be slightly more problematic.

The issue I suppose is the whole take away part. Once you have left the premises, you are left with the cup. I can see that being a problem, especially with coffee stains. Urrgh.

8 posts were split to a new topic: Bulk buy / packaging-free shopping

From today’s news.

Wowza, I had no idea the far reaches of my post! Lol

Good news though. Slowly society is taking up the challenge. Good to see. Who will be next.

Reusing is always preferable to recycling and if I don’t have my cup I like others will more often opt to not have one. There is also the option of not taking the lid.
Speaking to the coffee place near my work about the issues they explained how they were banding together with other small businesses to start manufacturing their own recyclable cups - looks like that has worked and they now offer the service to other independent shops http://www.pitch.coffee/cups-by-pitch/

Another great insight into how things are changing in the industry.
I have been looking online at all the options for businesses to get custom design reusable cups made. I must confess it is quite expensive, and the volumes they need to be ordered in can be quite prohibitive.

Great to see the hive mind hard at work, and companies working together to get the right solution.

Re the lids, I had not even considered that part of the whole package until you mentioned it.

Maybe some SE23.Life Or FHTA reusable cups, group buy?

I think Gail’s in Dulwich do compostable cups.

Good BBC article on recycling of coffee cups.

It appears compostable cups should be recycled with food waste.

However, compostable cups have to be disposed of in food waste bins rather than in a normal recycling bin and this is an issue for both homeowners and managers of cafes or workplace canteens.

Also interesting interim result from a Starbucks trial on applying a 5p per cup levy. Early indicators suggest they are using more, not less cups. Perhaps people feel more inclined to use a disposable cup rather than a reusable when their guilt is assuaged by a 5p penalty. It’ll be interesting to see their final results.

The trial has been in operation for six weeks so it’s too soon to judge its success, but early indications are that it has increased sales of drinks in reusable cups compared with a discount alone.

My local Costa has a recycling bin for coffee cups in store.

I can also see my reusable cups adding up in the same way as my “bag for life” shopping bags, you know the ones we get when we forget so buy another which then joins the large piles at home.

Totally agree. It is so trendy to rush along drinking coffee, something we never did until the big coffee chains culture came to the UK from the US. If you don’t have five minutes in a day to stop and drink a coffee, then maybe look at your life and manage your time better.

What is this life if, full of care, We have no time to stand and stare. No time to stand beneath the boughs And stare as long as sheep or cows. No time to see, when woods we pass, Where squirrels hide their nuts in grass. No time to see, in broad daylight, Streams full of stars, like skies at night.

Yes saw that as well but the Lewisham food waste bin guidance doesn’t mention cups but does explicitly exclude drinks cartons (which could be compostable too):
https://www.lewisham.gov.uk/myservices/wasterecycle/recycling/Pages/What-you-can-put-in-your-food-waste-bin.aspx

Should be ok am thinking but would be nice to know.

@InTheNightGarden, you are well named. Coffee on the go is a choice and you can stare at the squirrels in the woods while you are drinking it so much better outside the coffee shop.

I could have told them that would happen - doesn’t anybody read books about behavioural economics? Once you bring money into the equation, it becomes a financial transaction and no longer a moral obligation. The best example is the nursery who found that once they started charging late fees, parents would be late more often and pay the fee. The problem was that once they realised their error and removed the fee, the tardiness was still above the level it was before they introduced the charge.

Not on my reading list I have to admit. I’m tending more towards crime fiction these days with a smattering of space operas for colour. And Countryfile magazine.

Perhaps the solution here is something along the lines of the EU’s Battery Regulation? This requires economic operators (businesses in normal language) who sell things with batteries in to then collect a significant percentage of the batteries back and recycle it through an approved centre. Of course, in practice businesses don’t actually go around bins finding old batteries, but they do contract out the requirement to 3rd parties who do just that. This means that landfills aren’t full of the millions of batteries that are disposed of every year and that there is a healthy market in designing batteries so they can more easily be recycled. I work in vehicle regulations, and in practice this means Halfords and the like voluntarily collecting old car batteries free of charge.

The solution I’m thinking is that perhaps all food packaging, but particularly single-use food packaging, should be designed that it can be easily collected and reused/recycled by specialist businesses (anyone buying a readymade pizza from Sainsbury’s will know that plastic windows on cardboard boxes are already a thing of the past) and the way to encourage that to happen is to put the onus on those profiting from selling the cups, etc., in the first place.

Not necessarily. Obviously it will be biodegrade, unlike plastic, but if biodegradable material ends up in landfill, it can generate methane, which has about 6x the global warming potential of carbon dioxide. The landfill operator then has more methane to manage.

To reap the real environmental benefits of being biodegradable, the item needs to go down some kind of composting/ bioenergy disposal route.

Shameless plug, so do delete if inappropriate, but we:

• use vegware cups as standard (it’s a big step in the right direction)
• will give you 20p off any hot drink if you bring your own cup
• only sell cold drinks in cans
• send our spent coffee grounds off to be turned into bio fuel
• try to source our goods as locally as possible.

Come and see us on Blythe Hill Fields, Wednesday to Sunday.