Cyclists and motorists with no/ poor lights

I had a bit of a rant on my blog about this recently, as I find it SERIOUSLY annoying. People unable to understand that something as simple as cheap decent lights, or hi-vis clothing can make such a big difference, when using the roads at night, or low light conditions.

Standing out, being seen in someones mirrors before they turn, being visible in among the sea of lights that the roads become at night, head lights, tail lights, shop lighting, street lighting, advertising. A £2 dull light won’t cut it. Nor with obscured lights, no lights, or lights which have not been turned on.

When I do ride in low light conditions I make an effort to stand out. But when I am driving, I spend lots of time tracking where cyclists in dark clothing and no lights have gone since I last saw them. Will they pop out of nowhere etc.

It is a nightmare, but such a simple one to solve. I really do wish more would take this more seriously, and take a little responsibility for their own well being.

The same goes for cars driving with no lights on, defective lights, fog lights for no reason etc. Whoever thought lights on vehicles used on the roads could be so complex and make such a difference.

Some people are just stupid. I posted up last week about it after nearly turning into a cyclist who had no lights and was wearing black.

I get the impression from speaking to people that claiming “it’s not my fault” reverses any injuries or loss of life. Seems to be the case that others should look out for people, and if you are not to blame, you simply can’t be injured.

That and “I don’t care” of course.

When I am driving at night I am constantly looking for what works to make people stand out on their bikes, and adapting my own clothing and lighting to match.

At the other end of the spectrum - I also find cars, and increasingly cyclists, with overly-bright led/xenon lights also to be a bit of danger… sure I can see you, but due to the inflicted retina burn, I’ll be damned if I can see anything else…

Totally agree with you there. A lot of it being down to badly angled and positioned lights on both. Sick of being dazzled by cars with dodgy headlights. As well as cyclists with lights pointing up.
Bright lights on bikes I am fine with, pointing in the right direction.

Sometimes it’s bad luck. You pop in to work to print off something at 11AM and the next thing you know your held up until 8PM and you’ve only got a black coat and a couple of small lights. I like to think it’s purely circumstance most of the time.

For some maybe, for others it’s a way of life. I always carry my back up lights in my bag, always.
If I were to travel and be uncertain, I would carry something high vis. As it is I only cycle for leisure, so am always prepared.

Who gets held up at work for 9 hours??? Nope. As @anon64893700 said, it’s a way of life for some people. Dark clothing, no lights, no reflective material, no helmet, no bloody sense.

Any normal person caught out like you describe would ride very carefully. These idiots don’t. They still think they’re invincible. Truth is, they’re just invisible. Until they wind up sprawled over someone’s windscreen.

And you get blamed and bad mouthed by the cyclist. I had one a few years ago have a real go at me when turning. Black bike, black clothing and no lights. I left him by saying 'you may be in the right in that I turned in front of you but I couldn’t see you. You may be right but if I hadn’t seen you at the last minute you would be dead. Right and dead earn no point’s. I was told to F off.

I bought a decent pair of led lights for my girls bikes from Lidl. £2.99. No lights, no excuse.

Yes that right everyone riding without lights is a invisible moron who rides like they are Superman - all the time - all of them absolute cretins. Sigh…

As a long time bike rider this sort of conversation comes round every single year and while I agree with some of what has been said, I think some of it a little over the top… While I have three front lights and two back lights (one fell off recently and has been ground into the South Circ) there are times when, and this may come as a surprise to some, the batteries run out. Just last week on my journey home the back light failed - I don’t look at it every minute so must have ridden a couple of miles without it. I do have a backup but as I didn’t see it had gone (nor did I when one fell off) I was riding like an idiot. Silly me.
I also have very bright lights on the front of my bike which are obviously going to blind everyone and sometimes I might put them on flash which I have been told is also the work of the devil.
To be honest it seems to make little difference - cars still turn in front of me, people still step out into the road without looking, vehicles still pull out of side roads so i crash into them ( and then claim “I didn’t see you”) so I break my ribs and have to spend weeks in pain…
While I agree we should all do what we can to be visible I think there is way to much concentration of angst about cyclists. After all cyclists don’t kill over 2000 people a year and we don’t tend to injure 100,000s either - motorised vehciles do that…
I think if we all take care and slow down a bit, do what we can to make ourselves and others around us as safe as we can and we all follow the rules of the road (and yes that means 20mph round here) then we will all be fine.

Of course you do, cyclists are an homogeneous mass who all act the same at all times! We are a hive mind - like ants or something.
Silliness aside - I find this reaction perfectly normal because everyone does it. Every diver whose behaviour I have ever questioned has told me to feck off. Actually there was one once who I chased up Sydenham Hill, a black cab driver no less, who was really pleasant and apologised before I could open my mouth, which was quite some time considering it was Sydenham Hill. I have been knocked off my bike before, totally not my fault, and then been shouted out by the driver which made me laugh even at the time.
Mostly we all shout and rage,then think better of it and go home and feel slightly embarrassed…

Not sure that has been said by anyone at any point. Over reacting there a little mate.

Indeed they do, as do bulbs fail, punctures occur etc. No doubt about that at all. But there is a difference between non working lights and NO lights at all.
Once again, it is not those who’s lights simply failed during the ride I am talking about, I would have thought that was clear.

There will always be those using the roads, be it on foot, in small or large vehicles who “just didn’t see you” after all, that’s how accidents happen. Lapse of concentration etc. But there is no harm in doing the best you can to prevent these accident occurring.

No one is blaming cyclists, after all the thread is aimed at cyclists and motorists who fail to light up at the same time. Motorists too can suffer a light failure during a journey.

Just to point out that the “we” you refer to includes me, yet it would appear that we have different views. Of course I know you are joking
However, people react with shock when something dangerous occurs. Anyone who claims they can be squeezed between vehicles, then just brush it off and wish the drivers tally ho, is either a saint or heavily medicated.

As you say, its good to get it out of the system verbally. Been there too.

All in all, to clarify, this is my simple stance. I ride for leisure, so always wear condition appropriate clothing. If I am uncertain when I will be back I will carry hi-vis. Most clothing has reflective piping for visibility. 2 sets of lights, obey the rules of the roads, and never choose to be on the inside of larger vehicles.
I am far from perfect, but take comfort in the fact that I am trying at least.

Light jumpers, invisible cyclists, pavement riders, and plain dangerous riders. The minorities of the cycling world who gives the rest a bad name.

I do believe I said “it’s a way of life for some people”. Some. Not all. Some.

I witnessed an accident a while ago in which a cyclist was hit by a car. Cuts, nasty scrapes, bruises, bit of shock, but nothing broken, thank goodness. The car driver should have taken more care (I won’t go into the details). He was looking the wrong way (at least as far as the cyclist was concerned), As I did what I could to help, my sympathies were entirely with the cyclist.

When I got home and thought it through, however, the fact hat the cyclist had no lights and was riding fast as he approached a junction with messed-up traffic was a very considerable contributor to his accident. He could have been more conscious of the fact that if there was a car coming out of the junction, he probably wouldn’t be seen because he had no lights. Instead, he just charged on, hitting a car whose driver had very little chance of seeing him.

It’s simple, really: if you have dark clothing and no lights on your bike for any reason, don’t drive as though you are covered in florescent yellow clothing and strobe lights.

Yes I know I am over-reacting - it was sort of the point to reflect my perception of the over reaction generally in the thread - just having a bit of pre brekkie fun.
So this morning in bright sunlight with an empty road a driver (towing a gert big trailer) looks straight at me and turns right in front of me with no indication (into sink hole road as it shall now be known) - only to have to do a u-turn as the road, as we all know is blocked. Not esp dangerous as my brakes actually work but I had to stop dead which is irritating.
So I do agree - with idiotic drivers like that on the road I should have a 500 watt halogen grow light strapped to the front of my bike with a dub sound system emitting some sort of lorry impersonation. They might notice me then.

There is simply no helping some people. And those are the ones on both sides of the fence that simply should not be on the roads.
Glad to hear your encounter yesterday didn’t result in an accident.

It’s a bit of both isn’t it.
I think cyclists and pedestrians don’t fully realise how difficult it is for drivers to see them at night if they don’t have lights or reflective clothing. Especially if it’s raining, with all the street lights and other car lights glaring, someone in dark clothing can be very difficult to spot. I bought a pack of reflective stickers for a couple of quid, which I have stuck on my daughter’s school bag now that it’s dark when she walks home from school. They are quite effective and not particularly noticeable in the daylight.

Most secondary schools have a uniform policy which requires pupils to wear a black or navy coat - which might look smart, but is not very safe for walking or cycling home.

As for drivers … is it me getting grumpier or are they getting worse? I’ve already posted on here before about idiots driving too fast , or on the wrong side of the road so I had to run out of the way.
The new 20mph limit means you have irritated drivers constantly trying to overtake you or driving right up your rear. (And generally you catch up with them at the next set of traffic lights anyway )
And don’t get me started about how people drive and park on the school run!!
I have developed a pretty thick skin from driving in London, in that I will drive safely and I don’t care if others beep or swear. But it’s no surprise there are accidents when a lot of drivers seem to prioritise their own journey over other’s safety.

@Foresthillnick This is not directed at you or “most” cyclists. It is aimed at the idiots who dont use lights and dont make themselves visible. There is no need to get huffy and defensive, some cyclists can be idiots. Divers can be idiots, pedestrians can be idiots etc, etc.

My issue is, cyclists are one of the most vulnerable members on the roads and it worries me when a number dont seem to care. I used to cycle and always made sure I was visable (I lived in Putney and cycled alone the A3 to my office in Kingston) and had lights. If I can be sure I am seen then why cant others. As I said, Lidl do lights for under 5 pounds.

Yes other road users dont see bikes, but that’s a great deflection. I am talking about cyclists and not other road using idiots.

In motorcycling terms we have SMIDSY (sorry mate I didnt see you) and the curse “I looked but didnt see you”.

Good God! You’re absolutely right @Daffodil! I often see groups of little primary school kids going back to class after an outing somewhere, wearing florescent yellow vests like they’re a pack of tiny site engineers.

See and be seen!

I am really not huffy or defensive - probably more aggressive than defensive (if you ask my wife) but generally just trying to put an opposing point of view or at least a different point of view and just enjoying myself posting after solving a particularly interesting IT issue at 7:30 this morning. As I did say, I agree for the most part (I have backup backup lights) but find the endless, not on here per se, demonization of cyclists slightly galling.

Now all I need is a car battery and an street light and Ill be good for the ride home!

Ledlenser for you the. 1200 lumens.

Glad we have all found common ground on this now, and understand each others perspectives.
Every category of road user, from pedestrian to HGV has a responsibility to both see and be seen. In the grand scheme of things, its not hard now is it?
A little common sense with what you wear, a small investment in lighting and maintaining your mode of transport. And a little more caution when conditions are unfavourable.

There will always be the exceptions, as there are in all walks of life, but doesn’t mean because they do it, its the done thing.

I only have 1100 lumens, I feel so inadequate now! lol

I think I need one of these

Next excuse from idiots, “I didnt see you, there was this bright light, so I just pulled out”

lmao!

They don’t make 'em like that, anymore!

Not such a bad thing

Seriously though, this time of year brings out the worst in me for moaning about roads. The sudden darkness, and refusal by some to react to it appropriately. Motorists turning their headlights on for the first time this year. People thinking it is OK to substitute working dipped beam, for fog lights or high beam as they can’t be bothered to get new bulbs.

Pedestrians who just wander into the roads without looking, in pitch dark conditions. Like the lady on Brockley Rise yesterday who walked diagonally across the road, towards the zebra crossing, dwelling in the middle of a busy road for a bit. Then walking past the crossing she had just ignored.

Some strange people out there, and to be honest, a lot of the time, if they are not affecting me, I walk on by. Would never get anywhere otherwise!

What’s a surprise on my journey home tonight two cars behind me the cyclist taken off no lights wearing black. While standing on the pavement speaking to the driver she then decided to turn her lights on

Some don’t even wear a helmet!

Something I find irresponsible. I do like those who carry one though. Does the same job, head or handlebars.

Perhaps we should start by banning stealth cars - you know those that sport the same shade of grey as warships so they can hide in the haze. But thank goodness for ‘White Van Man’ - for making it easier to spot those not spotting you

I cycle to work and back every day, from Forest Hill to the City, and have done for a year now. So I have done a full winter commuting, and am about to do another.

I very rarely see (what I would class a) “commuter” without lights riding in low light or dark conditions. I would estimate and expect that most regular cycle commuters in London use lights and carry them nearly all the time. I do.

The folk I do notice without lights, are invariably flouting all sorts of other rules as well: pavement riding, riding dangerously and without due care, running red lights. It’s probably wrong for me to do this but my brain classifies them as a completely different sort of rider, and one who has no respect for any rules of the road. Don’t lump the regular commuters in with them.

As for the helmet debate: it’s a personal thing and is completely within the law to ride without one. I ride with one, and wouldn’t dream of leaving the house without it. We need to address the reasons why people think it’s necessary to wear one in the UK rather than point out those who don’t wear them. Look at the Netherlands, look at Germany, look at Denmark.

And as for hi-viz clothing: not for me, thanks. Okay, it’s useful in low-light conditions, but I’d have my lights on then anyway. Useless in the dark (reflective stuff is way better), and like I say, if you have lights on - I use a front flashing and a rear static - it should be more than enough for all road users to see you. But again, it’s a personal thing isn’t it.

I guess it depends where you commute, as to what you will see along your way. I will grab some footage on the way home in the car one evening, and we can all play spot the cyclist afterwards. It’s not every day that it is terrible, but frequent enough, and there are some scary hotspots for it too, like the Old Kent Road.
Hi vis, more a daytime thing I have to say, but within that description is reflective stuff too. All makes you visible after all. My Proviz is on the extreme end I have to say.

Helmets are indeed a personal choice and not a legal requirement (not that that part would change much). If people choose not to, more fool them I would say, but again, my view. Still don’t understand why people buy and carry them though.

Other countries have very different situations with regards to helmets, some of that being more safe provision for cyclists. Personally, if I fall off or am knocked off, I like to think I have done all I can to protect my noggin.

As for lights being enough… depends on the quality of the light really. Again, in a sea of headlights and tail lights, spotting a bike isn’t particularly easy, especially in town in the rain.

Saw a useful thing last week and one I have thought about before. A guy riding with a two front lights - one, as per, pointing outward and one fairly dim one pointing at him. it light him up really well and he stood out against all the surroundings.

I am ambivalent on helmets - I wear one 99% of the time (a promise to my wife) but it is so nice to ride without one every now and then. However a lot of helmets are pretty crap (Dont conform to Snell Foundation B90 standards) and are difficult to fit correctly and there is some evidence, albeit scant, that drivers tend to get closer to cyclists with helmets. In places like Copenhagen and Amsterdam you don’t see many cyclists wearing helmets and that is because it is pretty safe - safe from cars. I know you can’t get away from the reality that cycling in London is more dangerous because of the way which cars and cyclists come together but if drivers (and cyclists) were a little more careful there would be little need for helmets.

The biggest reason we need helmets here is the amount of street furniture we have and the lack of dedicated cycle lanes. You’re a lot more likely to come into contact with a lamp-post / signpost / railing here than you are in places like Denmark.

Personally I think that helmets should be an individual choice, but someone who wasn’t wearing one and suffers a traumatic brain injury should be presented with a bill from the NHS after their treatment.

I don’t know about street furniture, but some of the low hanging branches along the Surry Canal Path (between Peckham and Burgess Park) have made me thankfull for my helmet on more than one occasion

A bit of a ridiculous idea really. If a driver runs over a cyclist and squashes his head and the driver is at fault are you suggesting we charge the cyclist for his treatment. Fantastic idea. Perhaps we should charge fat people for their health care. Or maybe if you have unprotected sex and get hiv perhaps that too should be chargeable. According to you logic then anyone who doesn’t take extreme measures to protect themselves should be charged. Pedestrians who don’t wear suits of armour should be charged if they get run over and hurt . runners who dont warm up correctly should pay for any sprains they get…

The fact is that drivers cause death and injury to themselves and others. People on bikes not so much but hey let’s blame the cyclists ffs

I absolutely agree and I was using an extreme example to make a point. What I want to say is that if you choose not to protect your head, that’s your choice.

A helmet protects you when some things have gone wrong - why would you choose not to wear one?

To look at your hypothetical - a bike helmet wouldn’t do you any good when a car ran over your head (does that ever happen, by the way?) But if you’re going to have an accident, why not protect your head - the thing hardest to fix. Same thing goes for people who walk out on the road wearing headphones and paying no attention to the physical world around them. The treatment thing was purely hypothetical (NHS is and should remain free at the point of consumption) but given that you’d get limited sympathy as a driver or passenger if you were in a car crash and not wearing a seatbelt, couldn’t we apply the same logic?

I’m just saying that - as a cyclist - I look after myself with the right equipment. After a crash I’ve seen a broken helmet and a rider who walked away rather than needing an ambulance. Why would anyone choose otherwise?

One final point - often the same people are drivers, cyclists and pedestrians - why try to separate them into tribes?

Given there are around 1 million uninsured drivers in the UK if one of them hits you they are unlikely to stay around to see if you are OK. Given that they are uninsured they will most likely not be driving sensibly. Given these facts I would be mad to ride without as much protection as I could. When I had my motorbike I used everything at my disposal (leathers, gloves, chest and back protector, boots etc even if I was riding half a mile. Not doing so was just not worth it.

Yes you may get run over and get your head squished, that would be dreadful, what would be worst is getting involved in a small shunt and landing on your head and ending up dead when a helmet would have saved your life.

I think things are slightly off topic now, I’ve seen many of these arguments before but the root cause is that strangely (given that just over half of the households in Lewisham have a car, translating into less than half the people) drivers think that they are above everyone else and don’t realise that if they are getting angry (and boy do they get angry) about things they cant see on “their” road, its the fault of the thing they couldn’t see. Now I’m sure we all agree that some cyclists don’t have the lights required of them - but the majority do, however I’m sure that many more motorists both in number and as a percentage (even ones who are cyclists), speed which is far more dangerous. If you want to be a little depressed about how reckless most drivers are, read a few of the stats here: http://www.safermotorways.co.uk/statistics/

I think we’ve also agreed that segregation of cyclists from motorists seems like a noble goal, will benefit everyone, and something we (as a community) should be striving to achieve. Unfortunately the current government is not making things easy for achieving this goal, and I’m not sure our local government is that keen either.

As for cyclists wearing a helmet, its probably a good idea - but as its not law it is just as relevant as suggesting a driver wears a crash helmet. For the record, I’ve been involved in 2 incidents cycling where I needed a helmet, one was in the 80’s before helmets were even really available and one was about 7 years ago. After one I was in hospital, after the other I only had a sore head for a couple of days.

Indeed it is getting very off topic now, and the original message is being lost.
My point was not “bloody cyclists” not “all cyclists” not even “ban cyclists”. I am one myself.

The post was about those people who use the roads, in cars and on bikes, and fail to do their bit to make THEMSELVES safe, and make it difficult for others to see them.

How people choose to see or be seen is pretty much up to them. I just find it fascinating that so many don’t bother. Not a majority, just a large number. As someone who walks, rides and drives around a lot, I see plenty, and in my eyes too many. Not a percentage, not a number, just a lot.

This isn’t a witch hunt or a blamefest, but an observation.
The same goes for motorists who use fogs or high beam because they can’t be bothered to replace their lights. No brake lights, badly fitted headlight bulbs, forgetting to turn lights on etc. As well of course (with colder weather coming) failing to clear ice or snow from their windows so they can see out.

Being seen in or on whatever you are using the roads with is pretty damn important if you ask me. That was my point. Now what other countries do. Helmets was an observation, not a point of law. Wear or don’t wear, up to you… But carry one on your handlebars? Huh!