Could the council not provide a dropped kerb within the scheme or can the residents apply for one. A CPZ does nothing except provide a source of revenue to the council I believe £120.00/car/year…
Given we now have 200+ replies in this topic, would anyone mind me splitting some posts out into dedicated topic(s)?
For starters, a new topic called “Dartmouth Road Improvements - Parking”:
- Get splitting
- Leave everything here
- Don’t mind
- I have a better idea (please reply)
I think that’s a good idea and as mods we could keep on top of keeping topic titles useful - 'Dartmouth Road Improvements: [specific subject]
And may be a leave a general open topic for wider issues to do with the works?
I personally think it is unnecessary to split the thread. Changes to parking are an integral and central feature of the ‘improvements’. Separating the two subjects will, in my view, be likely to cause confusion.
More likely to prevent people from driving over the public footpath to access the private land, which is technically illegal and damages both the footpath and underlying services. A dropped curb would solve both of these, but I guess there’s also a safety consideration given the proximity of the bus stop and traffic crossing.
I presume that this is where the parking at issue is. Looking at the image, there seem to be sections of dropped kerb; however, looking at the image below, you can see irresponsible parking by the car hiding behind the bus stop.
I really think that there needs to be a reduction of on-road parking further down Dartmouth Road (near the florist) as it impacts traffic and makes it difficult and unpleasant for pedestrians, but the parking below seems acceptable to pedestrians, cyclists and cars.
That was certainly one of things mentioned yesterday evening. The issue is made worse by the fact that the people parked there tend to reverse into a busy main road
Car parking on the ‘pavement’ outside Forest Lodge and 117 Dartmouth Road, whilst not being ideal, is historic (47 years that I’ve been around FH!), hence, in my opinion, whoever wants to change it (Lewisham/TFL?) should have sought to do so through proper consultation with the beneficiaries and the legal process long before getting the roadworkers in.
If I lived there and had become reliant on a parking space - or if I lived in Thorpewood or Sydenham Park - and all of a sudden bollards were put in willy-nilly, as per the scheduled works, I’d keep smashing them down until someone got the message.
I hope that after all these years of Lewisham’s acceptance of the status quo they will struggle to put a strong enough legal case together to affect the current adopted use of this land. But this might depend upon some residents who’ve had continuous use of the parking spaces for the statutory period of 12(?) years.
With safety in mind, obviously, as with anyone anywhere who drives across a footpath to access a parking space in front of their property - be that a driveway or a crossover - there is a responsibility to do it with the utmost care to pedestrians and other motorists so, unless there is a poor accident record, that shouldn’t be held as a reason why this can’t continue to happen in this particular location.
I seem to remember a discussion about this a couple of years ago on another local forum.
The problem is that regardless of custom and practice, the access across the pavement, in the absence of a dropped kerb, is basically illegal and won’t be protected.
According to the minutes circulated by Michael after a meeting on 15th March 2016, the following points were discussed:
- The Council’s legal team are in contact with the legal representation of Forest Lodge residents regarding the rights of both parties over the land currently used for parking outside the property. No design can be finalised until this issue is resolved.
- Continuing with existing situation where cars cross the footway is not acceptable by the Council and the stakeholders.
It sounds to me like some detailed consultation was done and that the Council’s lawyers had already investigated the use of the land for parking and felt like they had a clear-cut view - crossing the footpath wasn’t acceptable. The big issue would presumably be that you couldn’t have a single car-wide section of dropped kerb to access the spaces, as the space is fairly narrow and needs each car to cross the pavement in a different place.
The residents of Thorpewood, and anyone planning on parking there to access the shops or the pools are going to have a lot more congestion to deal with if / when this goes ahead.
Hopefully they won’t resort to criminal damage.
So, this issue was resolved in law was it?
I would be surprised if Lewisham’s challenge wasn’t disallowed under the acquiescence rule due to the fact that for decades they had appeared to accept accept or agree by keeping quiet or by not making objections.
Of course, I would only resort to smashing the bollards up if I felt that they had been put in without an unequivocal legal right to do so.
Unfortunately one needs to check if there is any historical order raised to object to the access across the pavement as even if it was never acted upon there is no statute of limitation on prohibition orders.
I had a situation where a property formerly a coach house was converted into a dwelling, it was registered for council tax had an address and refuse service as well as all services but several years earlier the council had denied approval. They chose to ignore it as the funds were limited to enforce but could do so at any time they chose. In fact there are several drive overs in SE23 some marked with cones to deter parking but ignored by the council.
Has the idea of swapping the pavement and parking around been considered? I.e. creating parking spaces directly off the road, with a path behind? Granted the bus stop would need to be moved.
That might be a solution but would require a new planning application, liaison with Tfl and lots of consultation which will delay works, so probably not. There must be information somewhere in the archives?
Another point is there is a planning requirement that entering a main road one should do so in a forward gear, not sure if that could be used to challenge the residents?
Basically in all my dealings with planners just because others have done something it sets no precedents.
The new footpaths/pavements opposite the shops on my little strip are now new & open to the public & special granite balls will be coming soon to stop unwanted parking soon at Forest Lodge. Please don’t shoot the messenger guys
Very sad to report some traders from the strip from the library/pools to just around The Hill & Agas Deli are losing trade due to the improvements.
I won’t comment on individuals but one shop told me today they have been down around £600 the last couple of weeks & we’ve all been quieter than normal…
Another few (including me) have had the worst days takings over this period & I personally am really worried about this for the shops overall.
Please make an effort to take a walk to your fav shops on D Rd during this time, I certainly don’t want to loose any due to this.
I will also add that Curtis that is overseeing the works is very accommodating to all traders as much as possible…
You know the saying “Use Them OR loose Them” so get supporting your fav D Rd Traders for about the next year - various parts & traders will be effected at different times on D Rd.
All want to stick it out, so please help All do this
"Lewisham Council are pleased to announce that free parking is now available in the Perry Vale car park for up to two hours.
This has been provided by the Council to provide visitors to the area, including the nearby library, swimming pool and shops, with a viable alternative to parking on the road during the current road works. The two-hour free parking period will be available until at least June 2018.
We will then review the scheme’s success, considering whether more people are using the car park and the effect on street parking.
Please note that normal parking charges will apply after the first two hours. Signs displayed within the car park provide details of any charges which may apply.
More general information about car parks and parking in Lewisham can be found via the following link:
Perry Vale Car Park Changes Summer 2017
Hi Pauline. Sad to hear about the drop in trade. Do you have any ideas where the losses are coming from? (I’m thinking about who is staying away and why.)
So far there has been very little (official/legal) parking taken out of action, and it seems (albeit from my limited perspective) that the parking is generally as occupied as it usually is. Similarly, commuter footfall ought to be unaffected, with people still walking the length of the road to get to the station as usual.
So who is staying away and what is the key factor in them staying away? Loss of parking? Congestion? Noise and general disruption from the works?
To avoid any confusion, I feel I should point out that I’m asking out of concern for the traders and to see if there’s any way we can improve the situation.
Hi Brendan, I think the main reason is the noise & general disruption - I’ve very much noticed much less footfall on D Rd since the works began.& really hope locals that use shops, cafes etc do carry on throughout the works as they will be so much more pleasant to use after them, and I certainly don’t want any to suffer so much that they may be gone when the works are completed. On the other hand I completely understand why locals are not visiting due to noise etc.
I also thing that people that drive to the shops for a quick visit are put off by the congestion, so just don’t bother trying - The free parking for 2 hours at Perryvale car park should help with this, though some want to park right outside to grab & go if they are in a rush.
We’re all supporting each other at the moment, but I’m worried as some are having to think about cutting staff hours etc.
Massive thanks for your concern for the traders, I really appreciate it. I’m more worried for others rather than myself.
Traffic jams on Dartmouth Road today - NOT due to the roadworks and traffic lights, but all caused by cars parked on the single yellow lines! There was a van parked outside The Hill, and about 6 cars parked all the way along on the single yellows. It’s impossible for two buses going in opposite directions to get past each other. I was sat for about 10 minutes waiting because the buses were basically stuck. One bus was right in front of me and at one point it had to mount the pavement to get through - not safe for pedestrians, and can’t be good for the pavements either. I can’t believe it’s not double yellow lines all the way down that narrow stretch. Why does anyone need to park there?
Hopefully the improvement works will make this better?!
If you are disabled and have to walk with sticks, 200 metres is a hell of a walk.