Posts here were moved here to help keep other topics on-topic.
Whilst the violent crime debate would normally belong in the opt-in General Politics category, we’ll allow this debate to continue pubicly on the condition that it remains friendly, non-partisan and constructive.
This could be of interest.
Will be preaching to the converted, I would have thought.
For those with an inclination against the Facebook, here are the details from the event page:
Details
March 30 12-2.30pm at Kilmorie Primary School, Kilmorie Road, Forest Hill, SE23 2SP.
Come and listen to a story about two mothers, two sons and the devastating effects violence has on communities and families but also the hope that can be restored in Lewisham through this community project.
On the day there will be a chance to discuss what’s important in your area and if changes are required and RECLAIM your community with the support of the RECLAIM project. You will meet the team and enjoy some yummy cake and maybe even register your interest to volunteer.
It’s a Saturday so bring the kids to the friendly environment. There will be activities and Easter treats.
Please email info@ns4c.co.uk for more information and to confirm your place.
March 30 12-2.30pm at Kilmorie Primary School, Kilmorie Road, Forest Hill, SE23 2SP.
[I realise this is a bit Grauniad BTL, but bear with me]
I just don’t buy the argument that more police and more after school clubs would somehow magically stop people stabbing each other. Both might, potentially, reduce the numbers a bit but this seems to me to be a cultural issue more than anything, where knife possession and use is normalised.
Clearly, a police presence on the streets might dissuade a person from attacking someone (or committing any other criminal offence) at that exact spot at that exact moment in time, but the police can’t be everywhere, no matter how much money you throw at recruitment etc.
Equally, after school clubs and giving potentially disenfranchised youths something to do outside of school other than roam around getting into trouble is clearly a good thing. But providing such outlets for aggression or whatever (or simply offering ways to engage their attention) doesn’t ensure they will go.
Obviously both things (increased police numbers and increased investment in after school clubs) can’t hurt. Indeed, the carrot (‘hey, here’s a nice football pitch and proper coaching for you guys to use instead of fighting each other’) and the stick (‘Look, there are loads of police around, properly empowered to stop and search - I’d better not carry a knife as if I’m caught, the Courts are now dishing out genuinely punitive sentences rather than community service orders’) certainly have a place in addressing the issue. Perhaps Sadiq can rethink his pledge to massively reduce Stop and Search?
But I just find it a struggle to believe that they would meaningfully address the problem. It’s far more deep-rooted than just being a bit a bored or feeling like you can act with impunity due to a reduced police presence.
It takes a pretty bizarre set of mental leaps to go from “I’m quite annoyed with this bloke, he disrespected me” to “Right, I’m going to pull out a knife and stab him with it, with intent to kill, in broad daylight, in a public place.”
My point is more that it’s very easy to point the finger at austerity, but that somewhat lets communities (and more specifically families) off the hook. Why do children (as these boys reportedly were) think it’s acceptable to both carry and use knives? I have a friend who’s a paramedic and she has some extraordinary stories about the sort of knife-related wounds she sees. She mentioned, for example, that it’s seen as a badge of honour to have scars caused by knife wounds to your arms or chest, so as a result, gangs have started approaching victims from behind and stabbing them in the rectum - the thinking being, there’s no kudos to be gained by carrying around a colostomy bag for the rest of your life. That is literally mind-boggling. No amount of investment from the Exchequer is going to curb that sort of warped thinking.
There are clearly no easy solutions, but I think it’s fair to say it will take a combination of approaches to address the issue: a keener deterrent (more police, properly empowered to stop and search; much longer sentences for the possession and use of knives), more incentives to stay on the straight and narrow (the provision of more community projects and after school activities etc) and better education / guidance (both from schools, but more importantly, families and communities.
Balanced and thought-provoking comment - thanks for sharing and welcome to the forum.
In other news, we could see a new approach taken from central govt:
Thank you @Skua, that was so well put - and I totally agree with you.
I’m afraid I’m not that good at getting things across but I would also say that I’m hearing a lot of do-gooders who are trying to justify these kids carrying knives because of some ‘deprivation’ of youth facilities and life chances. They need to listen to you!
I think there is a lot more to effective policing than acting only as a visual deterrent.
Having the resource to properly takle and dismantle the gangs and organised crime that are known to recruit and exploit vulnerable children would be one way policing could help.
They may not think it’s acceptable, but have been bribed, co-erced or threatened to become involved.
In the local area there is a youth club ,after school activities as well as a library. Most schools have a councillor. To say there is nothing to do for youth is just not true. Poverty doesn’t mean you have to carry a knife for protection.
I don’t see any mention of parents though.
Lots of mention about government, police, lack of social services, but nothing on lack of parenting and personal responsibility.
The sooner people realise that they are responsible for their own actions, and consequences, the better as a society we will be.
Growing up, I had friends who were children of extremely low-income families. This did not seem to make them violent. They were peaceful people. They did not blame the government for their poverty. They did not blame others for their poverty. They did not violently attack others.
Perhaps their outlook would have been different if there was pervasive messaging telling these low-income families that their poverty was the fault of others.
Perhaps that messaging would have created resentment, and that resentment would have led to violence.
Is a 14 or 15 year old responsible for their own actions?
@Londondrz post actually focussed on the parents.
But yes, I believe a 14/15 year old should accept some responsibility for his picking up a knife and stabbing someone.
If 14/15 year olds are abdicated of all personal responsibility for their own violence, I think society could end up in a dark place.
I was, I am sure you were.
Fabulous. Let’s assume Chris was as well so that make three people. Being representative of society as we are I think we can make some strong conclusions here.
Skua notes the complexity of the issue and hints at the inter-connectivity of some of it root causes. Sure, it’s easy to point the finger at austerity. It’s also easy to point the finger at the parents. The truth probably lies somewhere in between and a mix of issues.
Sadly I doubt this issue will ever be handled in a meaningful manner as long as we lead with our politics and ignore our cognitive biases.
Greta Thunberg seems to have done well for a 15 year old. Malala Yusafzai seems to have achieved the same. Let’s put our world into context against the one Malala came from. Bit different and yet youth still feel they need to carry a knife??
Firstly sympathy to the victim of yesterday’s stabbing and his family and friends. Commiseration also to all those who witnessed this event. I think it is important at this time to remember that ,depressing and difficult though it is to know what to do : and your previous thoughtful discussion has highlighted the different aspects that have led us to yesterday, there are solutions, things we can do. The Forest Hill community contains many vocal and caring people who have worked together before. We can work together again on this. Our community pollice, schools and youth organisations all have a role to play and we must support them and press for more support for them all.
Margot Wilson
Shall we waste our time by picking random examples? Okay. I’ll play your game. I’ll take your Greta and your Malala and raise you child soldiers.
https://www.child-soldiers.org/
Or perhaps we should exclude guns from this discussion. No doubt you’ll be wanting to move this to ethikos anyways.
A very important point. Particularly with complicated issues we need to step back and understand where we, as a community, can affect the biggest change. @Andrei notes one area, where this could be achieved. Communities can, through their influence on councils or through charity, increase access to youth services. Recognizing that these have a positive influence on our young people, particularly those most at risk is a way forward. It should not ignore other contributing factors, but I would suggest that community has less influence on those matters.
I’ll be interested to hear more at the RECLAIM event on Saturday if I can make it.
Starman, thank you for your example. You may notice in the case of Malala I pointed our the difference as per my comment on context.
If you feel a child in a war torn country is representative of a child in the UK then the UK must be a terrible place for kids. I should worry about my own I think.
Do-gooders will find links to ‘justify’ anything.
Let me tell you - I grew up in deprivation that none of these kids would have seen and there were no youth clubs etc nor was there a career councillor to be seen.
What there was then, as today, was school, parks, local swimming pools and public transport to access these places.
What there wasn’t, unlike today, was kids walking around the place with knives in their pockets.
The way I see it, ten more kids will be stabbed in London every day that goes by while this child warefare group and that social scientist argue the toss over the best way of politely asking people to hand their weapons over without causing the little darlings any undue stress or psycological damage. Not to make light of the consequences to the stab victims and their families & friends, but the pressure this puts on the police & amulance services plus the disruption to public transport, businesses and people going about their normal lives is unsustainable.
Society has a problem that’s been allowed to become huge, to the point where we’re now at crisis point. Politicians across all parties need to agree to meet with every community of every nationality and culture and they need to say something like - off the top of my head -
Look, everyone’s stabbing each other out there, so we hope you will agree that it’s a really good idea to get knives off the streets and we’d be very grateful if you could support us in our duty to to maintain public safety so that we can find these knives, wherever they may be, and to dispose of them. Logic tells us that it makes sense to randomly (proper random - not just type-cast) stop people anywhere for only maybe a minute in order to pat them down with a hand-held metal detector - so that’s how we’d like to proceed. Initially, we will offer an amnesty for people voluntarily handing their knives in, and after that we will be getting army personnel to accompany police officers to help them with this massive task.
Or am I not being snowflakey enough?
If you think not, you’ll have to excuse me - it’s because I grew up in real poverty!
I forgot to add -
Once we’ve got the knives out of the way, then the do-gooders can do all their clever stuff.
Has this approach worked in other places?
I haven’t got a clue - I was just throwing it out there because I’m seeing kids getting stabbed in London every few hours; and I dread to think how this translates across the country.
As far as I’m concerned, the absolute priority is to protect people. After that, the resources of the valuable and already over-stretched NHS and police etc are being utilised to deal with the aftermath of knife crime when no knives would allow them to deal with ‘normal’ stuff.
I totally accept that the more scientific approach will play a part in some sort of solution but these desperate times call for desperate measures… URGENTLY!
I’d be only too happy for people to show me that I’m a complete lunatic for thinking the way I do.
In reply to a question at PMQ,s today, PM announced that a plan is in place to hold meetings with leaders of all communities in an attempt to tackle the problem of violence and knife crime.
Has anything else worked in other places?
Well that’s one part of my plan.
Yes it has in Glasgow modeled on some initiatives from Boston, US.
Obviously, that does not mean it would work in London as well but at least it’s a starting point of a method (or series of methods) that resulted in some degree of success.
There was. They might have been slightly less likely to use them, but it is a myth that knives are somehow new to society.
I was threatened with a knife around the age of 8-10 when playing in a playground in Cricklewood. When my parents stopped the police a few minutes later and pointed out the children who were carrying a knife, the police said they were too young to do anything and left it at that. Children carrying knives was no big deal in the 1980s, even threatening other children was no regarded as a crime worthy of a few words by the police. Those were the days when stop and search powers were at their height - at least in Brixton and Tottenham, possibly not in Cricklewood.
If I remember correctly a child had been stabbed a few years before I started at Forest Hill School by another child back in the 80s. That was exceptional, but was used as a warning to all students that weapons would not be tolerated in the school.
The deputy head had a cupboards where he kept all the confiscated weapons (flick knives, starting pistols, pellet guns, catapults, etc). So there were definitely knives on the streets and scare stories about the ‘Chelsea Smilers’ coming round in blue vans to slash your face.
Today’s problems are not new, but that doesn’t mean that society should not try as hard as possible to minimise violence, to keep knives off the streets, and to keep children safe. A sense of perspective does not mean a lack of sense of urgency.
Ya see - too many intelligent words and I’m totally lost.
I got that you was stabbed, it was exceptional and there were some people (probaly underworld characters) dishing out permanent smiles.
But, in my own little bubble of ignorance, knife-carrying or stabbing is no longer the exception - it’s at an epidemic level - and the worry of upsetting knife carriers is obstacle to getting a proper grip of the situation.
Here’s some data on this subject:
Number of homicides committed by knife, 1977-2018, England and Wales
Source: Home Office, calendar years until 1998. From there it is year ending March.
What’s striking is the marked rise since 2016:
Offences involving a knife or sharp instrument
Knife offences per 100,000 people by region, England and Wales, year ending March 2018
There ya go - my bubble of ignorance is exactly that.
Thank you for this data. I’m shocked!
I remember a teacher telling us in the nineteen -fifties how, when he was young, Englishmen used to settle their differences by fist fights and how shocked he was by the increasing use of knives.
I don’t know - knife crime has outpaced population increases, and the rise since 2016 is striking. I think we need to get a handle on what has caused this. Sadiq Khan’s aversion to Stop and Search (and Theresa May’s aversion beforehand) has probably had an impact.
I’m sorry but can you refrain from using the word “do-gooders” - I think it’s extremely insulting.
I don’t buy the argument “I grew up in poverty and I didn’t stab anyone” - very small minded. This is obviously a very complex issue and it does no-one any favours to boil it down to “prove” your view is correct.
As far as I can see there’s a number of obvious factors
None of these are the cause - but each play a factor along with others.
No one said such a small minded thing, the closest was a description of personal inexperience.
Oh dear! But don’t feel too insulted by my choice of phrase because I did qualify it by hinting that they might be capable of doing some clever stuff.
Anyway, while you and all the other experts are contemplating the obvious factors - except stop and search, which even small minded people like me have already alluded to - there will be more and more stabbings, which I’d suggest would not happen as frequently as would be the case if more drastic action was taken now. Obviously, I’m aware that the Home Secretary has given some funding for more police to deal specifically with this issue, but I doubt it’s enough.
the Home Affairs Select Committee recommended that the Prime Minister hold a summit on knife crime……. in 2009.
https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200809/cmselect/cmhaff/112/11203.htm
Looks like it’s come round again. When I worked in Westminster, holding a summit was useful Ministerial cover allowing you to be seen to be seriously considering the issues, perhaps in the absence of a coherent policy and adequate funding.
In 2009 they also recommended, as Vicky Foxcroft has been campaigning for, a public health approach to knife crime. Much of what people are saying should be done above was recommended 10 years ago - does not look as though this has been taken very seriously by those in power.
Isn’t one of the issues with stop and search now, that ‘tools’ of various kinds including knifes are being left in strategic places, so are not necessarily on people as much as previously. I’m still in favour of stop and search, but like others I don’t think it’s the only approach. If something if seen to work, or has worked in others areas, it should be tried, it’s as simple as that.
When I was growing up, many of the people I knew in my scout group (yes really) has knives, but I don’t remember them ever been used on anyone - I think the difference nowdays is how often they are used and how little life appears to be valued, and possibly the fear of being caught be the police is less than the fear of being caught by another gang.
It’s a difficult one and easy to be reactionary (that’s not directed at you or anyone) - I’ve often thought just lock them up for ages if caught with a knife - I still think it sometimes, but prevention is better than the cure so I’ll listen to anyone who has potential solutions to this - all solutions should be encouraged and we and more importantly our MPs should not be afraid of public perception of initiatives if they believe the outcome would be positive. The Scottish model appears to have worked, so it seems hard to argue against it.
Breaking up gangs and stopping recruitment has to be an area to target, it seems to many people carrying out the attacks are gang related (that may not be statistically accurate, just my gut feel) whereas those targeted not necessarily so. I’ve often wondered how (or even if) you can ever break this ongoing chain of recruitment.
Sorry I didn’t meant to use quotation marks to make it look like a quote which as you rightly point out no one said exactly those words. But there is more than one person who alluded to a similar thought.
I never said I was an expert, and I posted exactly about how stop and search is a factor (anecdotal evidence from the police say that kids are more likely to carry knives because they are less worried about getting stopped and caught).
Cleary the easiest thing to do (I don’t know the cost implications) is more stop and search, but you must admit that it is a cure rather than a prevention.
If people are carrying knives because they’re worried about other people carrying knives, then Stop and Search is a preventative measure.
To be honest, I don’t think stop and search is the cure but, if it were deployed extensively enough, it will be a massive boost in preventing a good percentage of random stabbings.
I believe the cure won’t come until some years after politicians wake up and take control of the classroom away from parents and pupils and gives it back to schools and teachers whilst simultaneously adding the building bricks of civilized society, such as good manners, respect and basic discipline, to the curriculum.
You are so right! @Anotherjohn I agree with all you have said
What I think we need to do now is find something age 14-16 years old are interested in and nourish it, help them do something that interests them, I don’t now what maybe Design, Graffitt, painting, or whatever but something that interests them.
Pulls their interesti in and diverts them from gang culture, which lets face it is the problem here that many teenagers are being pulled into and facing right now, sometimes not of their own accord.
Example - I’m 15 years old and someone has approached me with a knife and asked me to carry drugs - If I say NO I get stabbed - if I say YES I am doing something illegal - I will say YES because I don’t want to be stabbed or die - NO WIN SITUATION.
We need to look forward to change this and I don’t know how.
Oh flippin’ hell Pauline!
Now it looks like I’ve had to knock on your door to support me after taking such a kicking on here today - cos you ALWAYS agree with me.
You needn’t have worried about me P, I’ve stopped crying now and I’m alright.
There’s a comment about the appeal of “fast money” from @DevonishForester on another topic, which I think is relevant here:
The cult of celebrity is stronger now than ever before. Social media provides a constant stream of unrealistic role models for children to aspire to, and unfortunately the democratisation of celebrity (reality TV etc) makes illusory “success” seem even more attractive/attainable to everyone.
That;s so funny because I don’t even know what you are talking about 
But if anyone has a go at you Mr they will have me to answer too 100% xx
John… you mean that’s not written in to her lease? 
Captured!
hahaha
Seriously how can we stop this Knife crime, I don’t think we can.
Kids are threatened to do this or be stabbed themselves if they don’t agree to run drugs etc.
If I was a kid and was threatened to be stabbed if I didn’t deliver drugs I would deliver the drugs to save my life.
This is what is happening and it’s hard to stop 
Drugs might be at the heart of the problem here. It’s easy money for gangs. It creates a powerful “fast money” incentive for kids.
We need to cut off the money supply that fuels drug dealing.
Here’s an idea: Since 70% of beggars are class-A drug addicts, we can all make a difference by avoiding handing cash to beggars, and instead giving it to charities who help the homeless.
As the linked Guardian article explains, beggars can make several hundred pounds a day. If that money goes into gangs via drug purchases, it’s a serious revenue stream. Enough for kids to feel they’ll never have to take the boring standard route through life.
I don’t think a youth club (for example) would present much of a distraction from the lure of such a lucrative gangster life
I actually don’t think anything will distract these kids away from this awful lifestyle anytime soon sadly unless there is a great new incentive to attract them, maybe recording music or something similar could help.
Pauline, there are already recording studios around aren’t there? Remember when we met in Lewisham last week & was chatting about your son & the help & encouragement you give him. It’s not the answer, but I think there are a lot of children out there that are given no incentive to do well or at least try at school or given any encouragement, or listened to if they go to their parent/s, grandparents or whoever they trust, to talk about being approached or threatened. I’m only going off topic slightly here, but in Jeremy Vines radio show yesterday, they were talking about getting ID to access porn sites. It was quoted that parent/s don’t talk to their young sons about this sort of thing. WHY?? We don’t live in a buttoned up society like we did back in the day. I know parents work or only one parent (like you Pauline) but you still find the time to talk to Charlie, the same as I/we did with our children. Never mind about children’s civil liberties or whatever, they are exactly that, children & they look to adults like their parent/parents to look out for them & protect them as much as they can till they are proper adults. There is a lot of help out there as well for parents that are struggling either with work, money, relationships, housing. There wasn’t when I was growing up in the 50s & 60s, neither did we have school councillors or learning mentors. These children or youths need to be targeted at a young age with help, counselling even to show them that someone cares.
I don’t know if anyone has watched Eastenders & the unfolding story about the grooming of Tiffany. I’m not an avid watcher of it, but on Tuesday at the end of the episode, she was saying that the groomer was the only one who cared about her…now that is worrying that she feels like that.
That’s the clincher here.
Those claiming the state (ie taxpayer) needs to provide more for children are missing the point IMO. The data doesn’t support this argument. In an era when the state provided less, children were less violent.
Instead, in my opinion, the solution lies with parents / role models / culture / integration. And mostly parents.
Parents who cannot independently function in society themselves are choosing to have kids and then expecting society or the state to take responsibility when problems inevitably arise.
And furthermore, statist advocates:
In the 50s there was stigma around choosing to have children despite being unable to afford them. That stigma no doubt had a regulating effect. In the 21st century, society has taken a perverse twist, and stigma is instead directed at anyone who dares speak up about the above problem.
I’m not saying the 50s were a golden era. Far from it. But society has seen massive cultural/policy changes, and not all of them are good.
Would-be parents need to understand that it’s up to them, and not up to society or the state, to raise their children. Parents need to be personally held to account if their children go around stabbing people. And, depending on the age of the children, they need to be attributed some personal responsibility too.
We need a societal attitude change and a more open and honest national discussion.
To pre-empt the usual straw man arguments:
Yes I agree with what you are saying Chris. But what I was getting at & failed to explain properly I suppose is, that there is all this help, unlike back in the day & it doesn’t seem to be making a jot of difference! Parents (not all, there are some very good caring parents out there) do expect to have children & want to just leave them to get on with it or expect help all the time! Parenting is very rewarding, but also hard work & heart rendering at times. At least now it is easier to NOT have children if you don’t want to than it was years ago. It is just a case if taking responsibility for your actions I totally agree. Perhaps thus should be taught more in schools, if no one is going to object…
Better to offer them a GP appointment where they can get a prescription for heroin, or advice about dealing with addiction.
A prescription for heroin from a GP?
This completely ties in with what my partner says. She’s been in mainstream primary education for over 30 years at a local school and says she has seen a significant downward trend in good parenting in recent years. Her take is that time and again she sees lazy, poor parenting behind the majority of children’s behavioural issues, with parents simply not willing to address their children’s disruptive, arrogant, posturing, respect-less, ego-centric, rude, and sadly, often violent behaviour. Empty threats swiftly followed by over-indulgence leave these children unafraid of any consequences to what they do.
Just thought I’d pop up these related project links associated with the title topic:
https://se26.life/t/dragonfly-yoga-studio/809/18
And related Newshopper article:
The other link (which still may be of interest if people want to contact organisers) was an unsuccessfully funded crowdfunder:
https://se26.life/t/safe-theatre-project-for-young-people/1243
I’m not sure if the plan is to still continue the project though other funding means.
Just a few local initiatives things I can think of off the top off my head:
Double Jab ABC, an amazing boxing club in New Cross that gets kids of the streets but is also open to anyone who wants to work out or learn the sweet science. It’s cheap as chips and the money goes to keeping this amazing gym open and the work they do continue.
https://www.doublejabboxing.com
London Warriors American Football Team, the best American football team in the country, train in Selhurst and play their games in Eltham. I played there for two seasons with people who’d probably have been dead by now if they didn’t find this team. Instead they found purpose and have become amazing leaders within their communities. Google Efe Obada and his story and see where he is now.
http://www.londonwarriorsafc.co.uk
Fight For Peace. Over 1300 young people and children supported since 2016 in one of the most violent boroughs. Enough said.
https://www.lbc.co.uk/news/uk/teachers-could-soon-have-legal-duty-to-act-ag/
0 voters
It all depends on how it’s implemented. What do you do if a teacher does not report it? (question raised in the article as well) How do you handle different skill levels in spotting it from one teacher to another?
It seems to be an unenforceable law and these are not great.
I think similarities could be drawn with Money Laundering regulations that bind estate agents, who are clearly not tax experts but still have a duty to disclose irregularities. There will always be a minority of clear-cut cases and a majority in a grey area, but where it is clear-cut it should be reported.
I worry that teachers and nurses in particular are feeling pressurised and threatened enough without having this legal, as opposed to moral, obligation.
I don’t think it would be fair for these people, who work in public places, to put themselves up as targets for reprisal attacks.
If it could be done with complete anonymity I would be for it though.
Are hospital staff already obliged to divulge gunshot wounds etc does anyone know? Would it be similar to that for them.
Not obliged but ‘should usually be informed’. Similar provision also for knife wounds (added more recently).
The article linked above is a bit different - asking for reporting of those potentially at risk or involved, rather than reporting of injuries that have already happened.