Dominos in Honor Oak - Planning Meeting [Cancelled]

I received a letter yesterday from a Samual James (Lewisham Planning Dept) inviting me to a meeting about the changes to be made to the shop @ 56 Honor Oak Park. Has anybody else who put in a complaint about a possible Dominos taking over received the same?
If so what I can’t understand after reading it again this morning is that it says at the bottom that Dominos will not be discussed & that if they wanted to take up residency, they don’t need planning permission! I’m baffled as to why there is a meeting if what we/I have objected to cannot be discussed

@GillB - that seems very opaque - and perhaps deliberately set to confuse.

Have you got a scanner - can you share a copy of the letter on here ?

That seems very wrong, Gill, and typical of the “consultation in name only” approach. A change that will materially affect the pavement area and residents (late night moped traffic) should be discussed as part of the consultation, or the planning dept should avoid wasting our time and money on the meeting altogether.

Out of curiosity, I wonder what the difference would be if a fast food outlet were to open who used 3rd party delivery like Deliveroo or Uber Eats. In theory the delivery part of the business would not require planning consent of any kind, but would still attract a large number of mopeds throughout the business day. Not dissimilar to those over on Brockley Rise / Stondon Park.

I guess the planning dept are duty bound to offer consultation and discussion with any concerned parties, however have to be clear about what they will and will not discuss.

Unpleasing I’m sure, but straight and open from the start.

Unfortunately I haven’t got a scanner, so I can’t. But it was this forum who first alerted me to what was happening & who to complain to at Lewisham, so I did with other concerned residents I should think. @anon5422159 yes I think it’s a joke. But I will go to the meeting to have my say…

Could you take a picture with your mobile and upload that way?

I’ll have a go!

I’ve taken a pic on my phone, how do I up load it onto here?

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Hope you all can decipher this!

Seems clear enough really. The application made by them only relates to building changes and not usage changes. Therefore it is not up for discussion, or at least not at this stage or by this department.

However the language does indicate quite heavily that the intended purpose is indeed a Dominos. Or at least that the majority of letters received indicate the opposition of this business.

Exactly! As I said if he wants to change his shopfront, go ahead. I’m just really annoyed that it makes me look petty & that I’m complaining about something silly! My husband did speak to the owner of the fish & chip shop & he said he was looking to still sell fish etc, but would like to expand, but obviously didn’t say in what! Well as I said I’ll go to the meeting. There must be quite a few of us concerned as they wouldn’t be holding a meeting. Was just hoping that whoever it was who reported this last Oct/Nov it anyone else who complained could or would comment. Watch this space…

@anon5422159 - can you help here and anonymise @GillB’s personal data on her scanned letter.

Ta

Good call. Done.

Thank you!

If the meeting follows form then any discussion in regard to Dominoes will be ignored or silenced. As it states only the application will be presented and that is purely building works etc.

Will be interesting if any of the objectors to a Dominos eventually become customers?

I thought the proposal to turn the old bank into a Dominos a few years back was rejected because it was a Dominos and would involve loads of delivery drivers?

That precedent would imply that these are valid planning objections which should be considered by the authority when making its decision.

Does anyone know where you can access the results of former planning applications?

It will be interesting to know if any of the proponents of Dominos (~15% of members according to our straw poll) live near the area affected by the moped noise and clutter, or in fact, if they live in Honor Oak at all.

I know Sam & he is a good officer. As previously stated this is not a change of use application.

Very true, but past experience has given me a sceptical view, perhaps if it were a Waitrose?
Or if it was not well supported it would be short lived, supply and denand works wherever you reside.

If you know Sam, then perhaps you could find out what part Dominos plays in all this, as was first put forward & what I thought this meeting has been convened for.

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Why it was rejected a few years back

Surely the same can be said for many businesses. Someone suffers somewhere for other peoples benefits.

That’s for an entirely different address, what is now Mamma Dough on a large corner site. The fish and chip shop is already a hot food takeaway and i presume is already A5 use not A1

I think @Scully was just posting as an FYI on the previous rejection reasons.

Indeedy I was just to answer some of hop cross buns query. Should have replied to message

I understood why you put the post up, as the reason it is now being challenged is the same as before!

Surely the application was challenged before as a change of use from sit-in restaurant to takeaway?

So are we going to have an opportunity to voice our concerns about the noise and safety issues that will inevitably arise from a load of extra mopeds tearing around HOP? Plenty already cut through the barriers at the junctions around Gabriel Street and Grierson Road/Bovill Road/Garthorne Road. It seems ridiculous that we’re not going to be ‘allowed’ to talk about it in the planning meeting.

They won’t stop you talking about it, but they won’t take any notice as it is not a possible reason for refusal given that there is no change of use and that the existing fish and chip shop could legitimately have a whole shoal of mopeds without any additional permission.

If there is a continuing problem with moped riding on the pavement (to cut through barriers), then this is something that you may wish to bring to the attention of the police. Perhaps @SgtBiddle and @CroftonParkSNT would be able to keep and eye out for naughty moped (as @ForestHillSNT did for mopeds around London Road).

It happens all the time! @SgtBiddle and @CroftonParkSNT it would be great to have you keeping these mopeds in check if you can. I’m hoping the Dominos ones will be better behaved.

There’s a big disincentive for a Domino’s delivery person to do this, surely? Compared to Deliveroo (which could be coming from different places), they tend to be easily identifiable and with the shop so close, they won’t want people to be going in and complaining.

For clarity, Lewisham’s planning committee did not reject Domino’s as a possible tenant back in 2011. They rejected Domino’s application to change the use of that unit to Class A5 for hot food takeway. The difference is subtle but significant.

As many have already pointed out, 56 Honor Oak Park (56HOP) is already classified as A5 for hot food takeaway. So realistically any new tenant in the hot food takeaway business could use these premises. Domino’s would not even need to seek planning permission if they weren’t making any significant changes to the shop front, layout or plant works. Given the growing reliance on delivered food, it would seem likely that any new tenant would be largely reliant on a delivery fleet of mopeds whether their own or using Deliveroo or Uber Eats (or similar), whether they were the second or third outlet of a growing local, independent fast food outlet or another different national chain.

So it seems to me that a lot of energy is being used to affect the outcome but in the wrong place. The Lewisham planning committee has no control in who uses 56HOP as long as they operate within the confines of the building’s class use.

If there is truly an anti-Dominos sentiment in HOP, then perhaps people’s energy is best used directing their angst at Domino’s themselves. A kind of grass roots effort to show Dominos that they are not welcome, and by association that if they did open a branch no one would use it. There have been similar campaigns all over the country though usually associated with national super market chains like Tesco. Many are listed here.

But beware. Successful local objection to a national retail brand like Dominos could become a clear signal to other major brands… like Waitrose or M&S. Those areas which have successfully diverted a local Tescos is usually opposed to any national chain. If you want a good mix of local independents and higher end national chains, then this might not be a good road to follow.

Without meaning to be too picky, but there is no legal signage which indicates mopeds are NOT allowed to pass through, to and from Gabriel St. The gate does not block the entire road, but leaves a gap, which one would assume is for cycles of sorts.

There are no prohibition signs, just a physical obstacle preventing larger vehicles from passing through. So I would be curious to know if indeed it is the legal intention, to prevent motorised two wheeled vehicles at all.

The only signage makes mention of emergency vehicles, and not blocking it, as well as cycle path signs.

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I take it all back, a friend noticed this…
So at least in one direction, it is signed as NO through road except for cycles.

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Phew - I was beginning to think I’d imagined it!

I understand where you are coming from, but there is already 2 pizza places in Honor Oak Park. My argument with the letter is that it’s completely ignoring this!!

The point is that the number of pizza places in an area is not the responsibility of the planning department.

Le Querce, Chandos, Mamma Dough, Express Pizza. Four places serving pizza within a few hundred metre radius

Not that I’m complaining

Sadly that is not relevant to planning consideration. As frustrating as it might be.

Planning ought to aim for retail diversity

None of those sell cookies though… Mmmm hot cookies! Lol

Particularly with nail and hair salons.

Well if I had been told that in the reply from Lewisham council last November, instead of saying that if enough people object there will be a meeting, I wouldn’t have bothered! I must say I’m beginning to lose heart.

Each though offer a different Pizza product so one could argue diversity is maintained. A national chain with its associated cheese stuffed crust Pizza could round out the local offer.

I’ve got to say there are a lot of hairdressers & nail bars about as well. But…not all of them offer a good service. There are 2 hairdressers locally that I wouldn’t go in again.

is this in terms of venery, collectively precise ?

And @starman’s point is more than well made.

Planning is specifically excluded from commercial and branding specificity and selectivity except within the terms of approval of type (A1, A2, A3 etc).

Apart from SydSoc and its efforts to prevent a line of pawn and lending operations on their main street. There can always be exceptions to the rule it seems.

I think maybe Lewisham need to clarify the restrictions and put proper signage up at all approaches. Then it becomes far easier to enforce.

Just as other businesses are encouraged to open and offer competition and alternative products to make them different from the others, I don’t see the difference with pizza.
There was excitement for some, discouragement for Chandos, which proved doubters wrong, now it may be time for another to try their luck.

I think what needs to he established here is what exactly the objection is.
More pizza
The brand itself
Mopeds
Or something else. As it seems it keeps jumping about a bit here.

There in lies your answer if no one uses the Dominos it will flounder and close, that is simple business economics. If the multiple hairdressers and nail bars didn’t make money they would close.
If the housing market continues to cool estate agents will be disappearing soon, seen it happen in the late eighties. Foxtons experiencing 65% drop in profits.

No one in Honor Oak needs to use Dominos, but it will still succeed.

Dominos looked at demand within the delivery radius, and found it sufficient to keep their mopeds zipping around. All the sums have already been done. People want cheap pizza delivered to their flats. Dominos want to dominate on coverage and delivery time to meet aggressive global objectives.

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Dominos could have operated equally well from a unit on the Malham trading estate, for example. That way they wouldn’t have disturbed so many residents with midnight mopeds, and they wouldn’t have taken a shopfront unit that could have been a unique local destination shop.

But Dominos HQ did the sums and worked out the marketing value of having a large brightly illuminated sign on a road with decent traffic flow.

It’s all carefully calculated. They will succeed. People in underpants will get their calorie-maximised, satisfaction-maximised frozen/reheated/rehydrated stuffed crust pizzas and hot cookies from the comfort of their sofas. And in ten minutes rather than fifteen minutes. They’ll keep coming back for more. Not coming to the high street, sadly - but via online orders and moped deliveries.

That’s a lot of assumptions you’re making about Dominoes customers there, Chris. Of which I am one. Sometimes a girl wants hand stretched sour dough, sometimes she wants hot cookies.

Yet I held back and bit my tongue with that post! …

I was a regular consumer of Dominos pizza at midnight in Bath University Library as a lazy and indiscriminate student. Been there, done that, got the cholesterol.

The thought that some beautiful Georgian Bath stone shop in the historic city had been lost to this drab, soulless chain, feeding s**t to students now makes me very sad.

Uh-huh. So now you know better? Only the lazy and indiscriminate eat Dominoes? I should take a long hard look at myself.

Or you could try not to be quite such a snob.

There’s more than a kernel of truth in my somewhat lighthearted post - and you know it!

Although, to be clear, I didn’t actually say that “only the lazy” eat Dominos - I said that I was a lazy student, which is just an anecdotal statement of fact

Seems a lot of this has left behind the planning meeting and cycled back to the HOP is too good for Domino’s argument here.

Just sayin.

And if any Pizza place could deliver in 15… hell 20 minutes to my house they’d have a customer for life.

Boiling this down, the main objection to Domino’s appears to be that despite apparently being unwanted by everyone in Honor Oak Park (Honor Oak is somewhere else, IMO), it might be popular.

The thing is, I’m not sure how that works in practice: we live in the middle of a city. If the branch opened in Malham Road, surely the same amount of traffic would just be going in the opposite direction? Maybe what we need is for those pesky restrictions on drones to be relaxed and pizza to be delivered without the need for roads…

Nope.

It’s about the consequences of that popularity.

The more popular @Pauline’s shop gets, for example, the more friendly local banter, the more footfall on Dartmouth road, the more independent, characterful and unique shops will be encouraged to join her.

On the other hand, with Dominos, the more popular it gets, the more identikit delivery hubs spring up, the more mopeds buzz around at midnight, the less uniqueness there is to see and experience on the high street, and the less independent shops will be enticed to join the parade.

Unless you accept that high streets can thrive on a mixture of independents and chains. It doesn’t have to be either / or.

Are there a number of other A5 units available on the parade for more identikit delivery hubs?

How do you know they won’t deliver in cars sometimes? Or maybe even electric mopeds which don’t make any noise.

How do you know that the franchisee (apparently a local independent business owner who’s been on the parade for decades) won’t be contributing just as much to the community as someone who owns a visibly independent shop? What about creating jobs and allowing consumer choice?

Which ever way you look at it, I have to agree, that’s sure how it seems.
Thriving high street, but only of shops that suit.

This whole fantasy that independent shops are the only way is insane. If a shop brings business and employment, then it should be welcomed, surely? All about the economy, right?

My favourite thriving high street is Primrose Hill.

I’m sure someone will demonstrate some inverse snobbery and lambast me for it.

Primrose Hill made it a mission to encourage interesting, unique, independent shops to flourish. Now it’s a destination - a lovely place to spend time.

Is that a serious statement?
An over the counter and delivery service could work from a trading estate?

I have to be honest here, I am astonished at the level of negativity being generated against a potential new business. Delivery pizza, from a successful company who paved the way for some of the independents… How very dare they!

Your favourite, fine. But you can’t assume that’s what everyone else wants or indeed that it is inherently the best way for HOP to develop.

As has been said before, none of this is relevant to the planning process.

And that is what makes it unique, different, and a destination. Not the same as another place.
What works for one area and demographic doesn’t always work for the next.
Arinsal has a cool high street, some great bars and eateries, I wish FH was the same but alas there are mo mountains to ski on.

Yup, didn’t claim it was anything more.

I didn’t.

HOP has been developing this way ever since I moved here five years ago. We have some amazing independents.

Who’s to say this is the best way? All I know is that Dominos already serves the area. For it to consume a shopfront and to buck the independent HOP trend makes me very sad.

And we might be hearing from a vocal minority in this discussion - the straw poll suggests I’m not alone in resenting the arrival of Dominos.

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@anon30031319 and @AgentBlonde is worth trying to get Lewisham council to resign our side road no entry points to exclude mopeds. At least then if delivery drivers are caught they are committing an offence. Whether or not is makes a big enough difference remains to be seen, but it is worth a try
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I think the way to look at this, seriously, is to be objective.

The road is open 24hrs a day, and has traffic regularly. Heavy footfall during the day with commuters, decent footfall in the evenings and weekends to local businesses.

It has a busy mini supermarket which attracts short stay parking shoppers, a cab office, off licence if I am not mistaken, and other eateries and social venues which are open late and sell alcohol? I think.

Therefore it is fair to say it is no country lane, or quaint village road.
The increase in traffic would be 10-20 arrivals and departures an hour, it is unlikely to attract too many people loitering, doesn’t sell alcohol so unlikely to become to anti social.

I think the main objections to this whole proposal are as simple as this.

Dominos is not good enough for HOP.
Mopeds might be involved
Dislike of the brand

None of which are really in any way an argument to the proposal.

On the flip side it will increase employment by a few heads.
Local businesses may benefit from people collecting.
The area will have another option for food.
Dominos customers will receive their order quicker than from Catford branch.
A business / property will continue to thrive.

Indeed, I would agree totally with that. Especially if there is to be an increase in activity.

If that poll is in any way representative of the true feelings of the area, you can relish in the fact that someone will lose their gamble, and the business will fail

Good thinking.

If residents and the council make it clear to Dominos / the franchisee that we will be hot on anti-social mopeds, it may give them pause for thought.

I think there is an excellent opportunity for a HOP Society to be formed from this.

Friends of Honor Oak - I know you’re on the forum A penny for your thoughts?

I am against Dominos having a site on HOP for all the reasons I mentioned previously on here, the main one being noise pollution on surrounding streets and bikes on pavement outside the unit, also taking up parking spaces on HOP. But now I feel it inevitable by the looks of it, getting signage changed is one way to try and reduce the impact on local no through streets.

Sounds like a separate topic is needed for the matter of the signage of the back streets of HOP.

Would make good sense to make the signage clearer for sure.

Well it appears from reading the above there are no real grounds for Dominos not taking this on.

I’m not clear from above if the guy who owns the fish shop is taking on the franchise himself - if so I wish him luck - he’s been around longer than most on that parade, and is a nice guy to boot the times I have been in.

I would be amazed if there was not demand for this so suspect it would succeed.

I doubt anything will be delivered in 15 minutes, so I suspect for some it will be easier and faster to walk and collect - it’s what I would do generally, and what I do with Chandos. I also wonder if Dominos and others will start using pedal bikes instead of mopeds - you see quite a few ubereats deliveries on these.

I was against the original application on the site of the Old Bank Restaurant as that was the wrong location, and we are better for it. This location I can live with.

I assume you mean “no material concerns which can be considered by planners” — but are you sure this is true?

Aside from Dominos’ effects on pavement clutter, late night noise etc, councils are able to act on cheap unhealthy takeaways, especially near schools (and there are three schools within walking distance)

Re changing the road signs: Great idea @Tersie. Not quite sure how to start that process… an email to the local councillors maybe?

Tried a location very close to Malham Estate.

Across the road on the South Circular in the building that is now a massage centre.

Argued extensively in that other place - and despite suggestions that Domino be requested to use electric bikes - which they were piloting elsewhere - it attracted several objections and as i recall it mainly about noise.

Rejected there too.

Only if they have a specific planning policy in their Local Plan. Some Council’s have adopted such a position, but, as you say, it normally restricts them in close proximity to schools.

Historically the Government’s policy towards retail uses is to encourage competition.

The grounds for objection here would be traffic and amenity.

Lewisham Councill guidelines are anti internally illuminated shop signs. Also, doorways should be wheelchair accessible:

They have adopted this as a position and this could be updated in the new plan which is due in this year. No new A5 within 400m of a school. This isn’t ‘new’ though, even if it does feel like it as the chippy doesn’t deliver.

I think it is Dominos who should be under pressure to engage here. There are plenty of valid concerns re appearance and movement of delivery bikes.

I would love Dominos to engage, but I don’t think they will, as they’re a multinational company and everything they said would need to go through a legal and comms team.

As for the franchisee, some have suggested he is engaged in the community. Let’s see.

No credible businessperson should be put off engagement by negative public perception of their business idea. In fact the more negative the perception, the more pressing the need for engagement.

Ah. I remember reading this and thinking what a wonderful idea and then discovered Lewisham has already adopted this policy into its Development Management Local Plan. The whole policy is outlined in section 2.18. Lewisham Council also addresses the application and success of this policy in their Public Health Annual Report 2016.

The Council adopted a restrictive planning policy in relation > to hot food takeaway uses as part of its Development Management Local Plan in November 2014. The policy seeks to prevent the establishment of new hot food takeaways within 400 metres of any primary or secondary school. In areas further away from schools, the policy seeks to limit the number of takeaways by applying a maximum percentage in town centres and parades. As the Local Plan progressed through the decision-making process, the policy gained leverage in planning decisions. In the latter stages of preparation and following adoption the policy was used successfully to refuse five applications in 2015/16 alone. The policy has been used in discussion with applicants resulting in a number of withdrawn applications.

”This is a success story in making connections, joining
up our health aspirations and our powers as a planning
authority. Thanks to this, fast food shops by the school
gate in Lewisham have had their chips.”

Councillor Alan Smith, Lewisham Council’s
Cabinet Member for Growth and Regeneration

All this is good, but the policy would not apply to 56 Honor Oak Park as this location is already classified as A5. But even if it the Domino’s proposal was judged against these criteria I don’t think the project would be rejected. The nearest school is over 400m away from the location. Plus Domino’s could argue that it is the healthier pizza option as they seek to use low-salt alternatives, unbleached flour, and actually use mozzarella cheese rather than a non-dairy fat and oil substitute. Domino’s also provide healthy options. What other pizza delivery companies in the area do that, and how would this make them any different than the Grillzone hot food takeaway praised in the Guardian article?

Pizza Al Forno… look no further!

Which IMHO opinion is the best pizza in Forest Hill.

I can’t help but reflect back 12/13 years ago when a number of FH and HOP shops were boarded up and could barely be given away! Dominoes would have had their arm ripped off i’m sure

10 min collection / 20 min delivery - come rain, wind or beast from the east !

I see your point. What I find interesting is that Dominos supply the marketing, the ingredients, the staff contracts (I think), the app/web ordering system yet the business is deemed to be between the customer and the franchisee. There are shades of Uber about this. Each franchisee has to pay a lot upfront for this and I doubt they can deviate from the model supplied.

Maybe i’m missing something but surely that’s the same as how any Franchise food chain works, e.g McDonald’s?

Yes am sure it is. Have no knowledge of this but do McDonalds get involved when it comes to planning etc, or do they leave the franchisee to do this? The appearance of the branch in Hampstead village makes me think they might but am not sure.

My understanding is McD’s have an internal team which decide on future locations and manage the process of delivering a fully fitted out restaurant to the selected Franchisee holder, who then takes the reins and runs with it (after paying for the privilege of course)

I would agree. Although the reasons for objections continue to change.

Is this another angle of objection?
Would this be the case if it was an independent you were more in favour of?
I am not sure that Domino’s falls under the guidelines of cheap takeaways as such. If that is the case, then any other business offering any sort of “eat out” products, should be considered in the same light.

Has anyone actually been in and asked the guy straight out, and mentioned this thread, suggesting they engage?

Another thing I noticed, a number of the businesses on the road already use Deliveroo to offer a take away / delivery service, some much loved ones. What is the difference between them using moped delivery drivers, and Dominos? Especially if say during the summer they were to get an increase in deliveries? Would people call for them to be closed down or denied permission to send deliveries out?

Yes - I think Dominos HQ is currently in the driving seat here - a possible reason for the lack of engagement by the franchisee in community discussions.

It would be good to hear from a wide range of HOP residents in this topic to avoid it getting repetitive and circular, or dominated by vocal minorities. Don’t be shy!

As I said before my OH spoke to him a few months ago & he said he was going to still sell fish & chips, but was looking to expand. He didn’t actually mention Dominos, but did mention pizzas. I may just go in there tomorrow & ask him myself! At least we will then have clarity before the meeting. I’m still waiting for the person on this forum who first brought it to the fore to have his (& yes I remember it was a man) say.

I’d say its highly likely that is the case (assuming the lease will be signed by Dominoes themselves with the Franchisee signing a form of sub-agreement/lease with Dominoes), So at this stage there may not even technically be a franchisee to engage with.

Good on ya. Would certainly make sense if you are local and know the guy in any way, to mention the hearsay, so to speak, and maybe mention that there are other locals concerned. Maybe point him in this direction. As Chris said, it would be fitting for them to be a part of the discussion, if indeed it is them who are planning to expand.

I am local, I live in Kilgour Road, 5 mins away & we are long standing customers of his, having lived round here since 1999. In actual fact I’ll walk up there now & report back!

Strike while the iron is hot lol…

Fair play for getting stuck in there, didn’t mean to sound bullish about “someone” going to see him.

Oh no it’s fine, at least then we might know where we stand!

If a debate on suitability of Domino’s for Honor Oak Park in the intention of this thread, the topic title about some pesky planning meeting might discourage people from joining in.

That’s exactly how it works according to their franchising pages.

Right, I’ve been to speak to the guy in the fish & chip shop. He is selling up, starting something (didn’t seem to know what, or not telling) in SE23. Yes Dominos are taking over if all goes to plan. Nothing is set in stone yet.
Other local residents are sad that he is going, but he seemed to think they were not too bothered about it becoming Dominos. So he says…
I mentioned the meeting on Monday & that the council won’t talk about the takeover, but again there wasn’t much for him to say. I said it’s a shame as there is an independent pizza shop next door etc & he said it’s competition, if you like independent, you will use them, if you like Dominios, you will use them etc. Also he thinks they will be delivery only & will only cover the local area, not Forest Hill for instance. So, there we have it!

Also just to clarify, they will be taking his takeaway license of the shop.

Brilliant info there @GillB, thank you for doing the legwork to get the truth behind the myths.

Sounds like there is no need for him to engage in the discussion further than this. Now I guess the mystery remains, who is looking to take the property over. Guess that will stay quite hush hush.

Yes, didn’t think to ask who actually owns the property, maybe it’s him? As you say, I suppose he doesn’t have to give that information away as well he did say there are no other shops available on Honor Oak, even if he did want to change direction business wise there.

Good investigating there, @GillB - good to explode the myths - for example, that this Dominos was going to be any more than a delivery hub, or that it was going to be run by the well-liked owner of the chippy.

Hopefully now we know that Forest Hill won’t be covered, this topic can re-focus onto HOP residents and their concerns and opinions.

I’ll get my coat…

I will still go to the meeting on Monday & hopefully local residents will comment then, if they don’t on here before then.

Okay, so, unless he’s already in contracts with Dominos, there would be nothing to stop a group of locals getting together and putting a viable business proposition to the fish ‘n’ chip shop man.

Calling @Kate (Change of use for 66 Honor Oak Park (Honor Oak Supermarket))

Yes like this. AIUI, it is currently A3 but as it was granted pre-2005 it is permitted to change once to A5. So the current licence may well support a restaurant or cafe.

He may though be in potential receipt of a finders fee? But not if he owns the building.

Ouch… I’m a brisk ten minute walk from Honor Oak Park and customer to its traders. But I can take a hint. Before I leave though…

Domino’s has a scheme offering £10,000 which may have been of interest to this well-liked owner of the chippy.

and…

I guess only the right type of independents are welcome in HOP. Wonder what the next independent would be for replacement?

Caio.

Yes, that wasn’t very friendly. If not Honor Oakers, am sure Honorary Oakers can comment too?

To challenge this (hopefully) constructively, are you sure you understood correctly? A hyperlocal delivery-only Domino’s Honor Oak Park branch wouldn’t make much sense. Presumably this place would offer collection (like every other Domino’s) and they’d serve anyone between the catchments for the existing stores in Catford and East Dulwich.

Well yes of course they will serve customers won’t they? But he said there is a branch in Catford & Forest Hill? (I’m not aware of one) so that would keep delivery local. I’m just quoting what he said

Ten grand is nothing to save your high street (as many people are seeing it).
If someone’s got a business proposition and the financial clout to satisfy the landlord, this could be a great opportunity for HOPers to get their heads together to create something bespoke that benefits a few local residents who could be a kind of cooperative…

I can feel a crowd-funder coming on!
And I’m in!!

Hmm. No, there is no Dominos in FH. When I order, it comes from Catford. I wonder if maybe he was saying what he thought you wanted to hear - that this would be a ‘local Dominos for local people’. Although how that would mitigate people’s concerns about mopeds I don’t know.

Can people from the wider possible catchment area comment again, @anon5422159?

When he said ‘delivery only’ might he have meant no seating, so all take out, whether collection or delivery?

According to the owner, as I said already, locals are sad to see him go, but don’t seem bothered about a Dominos. I did say we are having a debate on here, so he may mention it if he gets into conversation with any other locals. As I said I’ll keep anyone interested in what happens at the meeting on Monday. Personally I’m just glad I at least know what’s going on, as I was beginning to think it had been made up as no-one else who had posted originally had said anything.

Yes I think that’s what he meant.

According to their website my Forest Hill address would be served by the store on Brownhills Road, Catford. However, we would be closer to the HOP store.

sneaks back in

The Dominos website has identified Forest Hill for a future location.

tiptoes out

drops in on a harness and line, Mission Impossible style

That’s just a list of pretty much every area in London that doesn’t currently have a Dominos…

winches self silently up and out

It could be that the journey time to Catford is quicker because of the main roads. Whereas HOP has a more round-about route?

throws on cloak of invisibility borrowed from Harry Potter

Yet Honor Oak Park isn’t listed.

sneaks back out avoiding bumps into certified HOPers

This conversation is getting less constructive.
Time for a fifteen-minute tea and biscuit break.

This topic was automatically opened after 16 minutes.

throws on finest suit of Emperor’s New Clothes

What the f*** are you lookin at!

continues strutting forth to the chip shop planning meeting

Now that I’ve had my lovely refreshing cup of Red Rose Tea, I can also mention my last link (not this one) also exposed the name and email address of the main man at Domino’s searching for property in London.

The earnest among the group might find it useful to contact said person to find more information about Domino’s HOP proposals… or point them to this topic.

As much as I disagree with the suggestion that it will not serve Forest Hill, and only HOP residents should have a say, I will appreciate the sentiment and leave the thread alone now.

I only hope the “keep ya nose out” approach is a two way thing. I’m sure that makes sense.

Just to say before I leave this topic alone till Monday. I didn’t say they wouldn’t serve Forest Hill, that was the way he put it across., he was trying to make the amount of mopeds that would be used more acceptable as well I think not that I’m fooled ha ha!

Oh thanks so much for thinking of us. It is very tempting and we’re still so disappointed that it didn’t work out for us in HOP and are extremely grateful to everyone for their support. However, we’re currently trading as a small business under the name ‘Beer and Biltong’ doing pop-up events. We’ve got a great selection of craft beers for our next beer tasting event at the Mansion in Beckenham Place Park on 26th April

Good point.

Domino’s have had two applications on this locale rejected - mainly because both required change of use considerations and this opened their applications to a wider number of criteria that had to be considered.

They are not the type of organisation who will continue to “do over” the same types of application that result in failure.

They have learned their lesson and have found a location that does not require change of use - and this significantly limits the list of valid criteria that planning officers can consider.

So a measure of pragmatism must kick in.

Your local councillors are not constrained by this shorter list - unlike their officers.

Address your concerns directly to them. Their views will be taken into consideration and they can potentially influence sitting members of which ever sub-committee will consider this application.

Sitting members can and do make decisions independently of the recommendations made by officers, ignoring any constraints - and this is a perfectly valid approach.

Alternatively get in touch immediately with Domino’s and insist that they use electric-powered bikes/mopeds.

i would not possibly propose that this is a horse trade - but to encourage Domino to give you the quieter option, you could suggest that the possibility of dropping objections might be achievable.

Apologies all for my inference that this is a HOP-only topic.

That wasn’t really my intention. I only felt the discussion was getting cliquey and dominated by one or two people from the “for” camp, and this might discourage their participation of the many local HOP residents who are “against.”

To be clear, all of SE23 and beyond are welcome to comment on this topic and others, provided the usual guidelines are followed of course.

Hi All,
I think the chap (who owns the fish and chip business) owns the whole building and as far as I know he lives above it . So he could either be leasing the business out to dominos or sold the business retaining the property upstairs.

Only one person has said this topic is for HOPers only. I welcome wide and varied debate from everyone! Don’t go!

I’ve just read through this whole post and would say it was as dominated as much by you in the ‘against’ camp as by those in the for camp. For what it’s worth, I am an HOPer and whilst I’d prefer the chippy I often think I am the only place keeping that going as it is never busy. And realistically whatever replaces it is going to do some sort of delivery, either it’s own or through deliveroo like mama dough, Chandos, Babur, clumsy mole do. So I’m pretty ambivalent about it. Will I use a dominoes? Unlikely. Does that matter? No. HOP and surrounding area is very diverse and different people want different things.

Do you see my point about a vocal minority, though? If 50%+ of posts come from a few people representing a 15%-mindshare opinion, then we’re hearing a vocal minority, and that’s not healthy for inclusive debate IMO

Where did you get 15% from? A poll on this site? Not sure that’s a particularly accurate basis for you to determine whether it’s a vocal minority or majority and who should be allowed to speak. Surely the entire point of you setting up this site was to allow debate and discourse and not to boil everything down to a series of polls to determine who can/can’t talk about a topic? Anyway this is getting off topic but I really value the views from outside my immediate area as well as being able to share views on things that aren’t in HOP ie bell green, that terrible ‘Aladdin’s cave shop’, Superdrug vs boots.

Hi everyone

Can we get this back on track. As had been made clear, everyone’s view are welcome, no matter where you reside.

Let’s get back to the subject at hand please - so thoughts with regards to the application please.

Thank you

I think you’re simplifying what I suggested.

In some situations it can be unfair when people far from the consequences of a development get involved in the planning process - particularly when their motivations are different from the unfortunate few who suffer the side-effects.

Edit: sorry, @oakr - cross-posted.

I submitted an objection to the planning application, but have not been invited to this meeting… Doesn’t seem very fair or transparent.

Are others in a similar position? Quite a few people replied to the original thread saying that they had complained but so far only one person on this thread has mentioned being informed of the meeting by the council. Hope nothing untoward is going on here…

Lewisham officers are not always as diligent as they should be and sometimes - some would say too frequently - do not conform to their own stated procedures.

The officer dealing with the case is named in an earlier post - email the officer immediately and ask why you have not been notified and have not been offered the opportunity to attend.

Include in your email a request that if you are not to be invited - for whatever reason - that the officer cancel and re-schedule the meeting.

I agree & assume everybody who had complained had been invited …in case it’s not very clear to see from my copy the name of the officer is:
Samuel Jones Planning officer South area team e-mail planning@lewisham.gov.uk

I’ve got the letter as I made a complaint, as it says it’s an informal drop in then anyone can turn up, worth spreading the word around in case there are people who would like to come but didn’t get the letter.

I could put a message on the Nextdoor website.

As someone with planning objection experience (up to DoE level) I can advise that the objection has to be based on the application. Fish&chips or Dominos is not mentioned in the draft I have viewed, so unless there is some basis for objection based on the application per se then objecting as to whether it is Pizza hut, Dominos or some other fast food vendor is irrelevant to the application.
It is not a change of use, so some may be disappointed when the Planner tells them their objections are irrelevant.

Out of interest - what do those who object to Dominos think should be there instead?

Bearing in mind the owner looks intent on selling up so the status quo is probably not an option.

Yes I agree about the owner being intent on selling up, but ANOTHER pizza place? When I spoke to him yesterday he said he wouldn’t set up a cafe as there is one next door, so why another pizza place? Maybe an Indian otherwise as it’s now looking as though it has to be a restaurant/takeaway of some sort?

Someone just contacted me on Twitter and suggested that we:

• speak to the owner and see if it’s a done deal, and whether he’d consider an alternative
• approach the local #pop-up street food businesses - @FowlMouths, @MaltPepperLDN, @leofoodmind, @mayakakilima, @tacutacu, @Rati, @Saigon_Streat, Rastawala etc
• see if there is appetite for crowd-funded financial assistance in the community

(As also suggested by @Anotherjohn)

Is there an echo in here?

What about business rates? Are pop-up’s liable for them?

Business Rates are payable by the tenant for the duration of their occupation but the rateable value for this premises is only £10,084, which means that the annual rates bil is potentially £0 with Small Business Rates Relief.

A regrettable and very unwanted side-effect.

It is horrible, but to be fair that can happen anywhere, & seems to be becoming more prolific.

Horrid but this may not be an issue in Honor Oak if it really is a pure delivery hub. All transactions would presumably be online in that case.

That said, it would be a loss of actual shop frontage if that is the case. Does the @HopCroftForum have any (relevant) policy in this regard?

This is something that perplexes me. I am sure someone else knows better, but I don’t know of any delivery only locations for any of the main franchises. The idea of no counter collection on a busy high street seems insane.

I assume the comment meant, it won’t offer eat in, rather than not offering over the counter takeaway. Hope that is the case anyway, as I am looking forwards to collecting some of their collection only deals.

In their previous application they said they were expecting 70% of their business to be delivery so presumedly there will be collection potential. If it’s 70% for this new one then does seem to suggest there will be a lot of motorbikes needed to deliver that level of volume…

My two concerns are

• large amounts of mopeds running up and down the no-traffic route
• mopeds coming and going stopping the blossoming and pleasant street eating scene which has popped up with Hattush, Two spoons etc: who wants to sit outside with mopeds revving

if noise is the major concern do get in touch directly and press Domino to use these quieter bikes.

I tweeted the two main Dominos accounts about this last night. No word back yet and I’d be surprised if they engaged… they don’t seem to do that, unfortunately.
Sadly I’ve got a deadline looming and need to finish some work tonight so I can’t attend the planning meeting. If anyone’s going, please could you report back on here? Thanks locals.

I’m going to go, so will report back

Meeting cancelled! Due to unforeseen circumstances relating to the Hall on Ewart Road…

Yes just seen that. Irritating!

Yes just got this email. Be good to attend in 2-3 weeks.

I am writing with regard to the Local Planning Meeting that was scheduled be held tonight to discuss the planning application at No.56 Honor Oak Park (DC/17/104077).

Unfortunately, due to circumstances beyond our control, the Ewart Road Hall have cancelled our use of the hall at incredibly short notice.

Due to this the meeting will need to be postponed to a later date, which will be re arranged this week, for a date in 2-3 weeks’ time. You will receive another letter inviting you to the meeting at the new time and date once it has been scheduled.

Could you please try to get the word out that the meeting is being postponed. I have emailed all objecting residents, but if you are aware of a neighbour who was due to attend, please try to let them know.

We can only apologise for this, and please accept our assurance that this matter will be dealt with as soon as possible.

Kind Regards,
LBL Planning Team
London Borough Of Lewisham Planning Department
3rd Floor, Laurence House, Catford, SE6

Surprise, surprise! ️

Hi @AgentBlonde when we ran the campaign last time they were open to meeting us to try and win us over. Speaks volumes that they don’t want to engage this time.

Yes this is an aspect that I find surprising. Given that this is an informal meeting, you would think it is an opportunity to engage with the locals. A consideration, one would of hoped, when their standard approach is for a 20 year lease.

@Tersie @Brett Yes, it’s a big shame.

@GillB Thanks for offering to report back. Hopefully I’ll be able to go, now that the meeting has been postponed.

Is it possible that they are not formally involved at this point, and would be unable to discuss anything until such a time that they are formally involved.

As for the cancellation, what a PITA, so late in the day too.

I am writing with regard to the Local Planning Meeting that was scheduled be held tonight to discuss the planning application at No.56 Honor Oak Park ( DC/17/104077 ).

Unfortunately, due to circumstances beyond our control, the Ewart Road Hall have cancelled our use of the hall at incredibly short notice.

Due to this the meeting will need to be postponed to a later date, which will be re arranged this week, for a date in 2-3 weeks’ time. You will receive another letter inviting you to the meeting at the new time and date once it has been scheduled.

Could you please try to get the word out that the meeting is being postponed. I have emailed all objecting residents, but if you are aware of a neighbour who was due to attend, please try to let them know.

We can only apologise for this, and please accept our assurance that this matter will be dealt with as soon as possible.

Kind Regards,

LBL Planning Team
London Borough Of Lewisham Planning Department
3rd Floor, Laurence House, Catford, SE6 4RU

Has there been an update on this rescheduling ?

@GillB @Tersie

Not received a letter or email as yet. Anyone else?

Neither have I…

That is rather bad, especially given the original communication said it would be rescheduled and notice given that week.

Meanwhile, has anyone been in to see Mr ChipShop to try to do a deal?

The thing is, as far as Planning goes, this may well be a fait accompli so someone needs to offer Fish’N’ChipMan an alternative to Dominos, which also may already be beyond redemption, but sitting on hands and waiting for this meeting to occur is not a good tactic for those of you who need Dominos not to open on Honor Oak Park.

@Anotherjohn I think the chap who owns the chippy has agreed a deal with Dominos and someone of the same buying power would be needed to step in to match whatever they have offered him. Despite being against Dominos coming to the parade I guess he is doing what he feels is right for him personally for his future and I wish him luck, he’s a nice guy and been on the parade for many a year now and we will all miss his Fish and Chip business. I think all we can do is try and ensure bikes are not an issue and that signage is sympathetic to the character of the terrace.

If quiet electric bikes are used, and the signage were to match the style of other beautiful independent shops on the parade (especially G&G, although I am of course just dreaming), then I doubt many of us would object to Dominos coming to the parade.

There are Dominos stores that have sensitive, more in-keeping signage:

image634×608 99.3 KB

Would need some strong input and governance from the council here.

Yes Tersie, the man is probably seeing this as his pension so he’ll want a tenant with a good prospect, however, it wouldn’t surprise me if there are people on this forum who could trump this Dominos franchisee if this was something they wanted to pursue themselves or as a consortium; and that’s what I was getting at.

If, on the other hand, there are no other takers, then, as @anon5422159 just rightly said, Honor Oak Park might not be too damaged if Dominos went for a traditional shopfront and, as you say, bikes and riders that respect the neighbourhood.

So, thinking of the next step, as it would be unlikely that the franchisee would want to pull up the extra money to do the shopfront, how about if an offer is made at the meeting to perhaps have it crowd-funded? That might seem a bit odd, but in my opinion, because it’s something that would mean more to the local community than the trader, this might be the only way of getting what the people want. It’s not on my patch, but I’d support it to benefit the wider SE23 area (and my first and third jobs were in HOP!).

@Anotherjohn I think it is important that there is big attendance to voice concerns re bikes and noise pollution on closed off streets etc. Also put pressure with regard to the shop front finish, if they are coming to HOP be good to have all of this addressed up front. Last time round they said if they were to be awarded planning at Old Bank they would have been sympathetic with frontage design. I’m not sure about the crowdfunding bit, Dominos’ are a massive brand and have the money to have which ever shop front they want. They also talk a lot about being involved in the community and being a good tenant lets see what can be done.

I agree with all your comments

I gather that all new Dominos will be rocking this new exterior design with the ever so trendy mat black finish.

https://corporate.dominos.co.uk/case-study/reimaged-stores

Without some local plan addressing this, can this be addressed meaningfully through the planning process?

I admire your optimism @Tersie, but in a location where 5 adjacent shops on either side of it has a bog-standard aluminium shopfront what would make them want to spend double the money on a nice twee tradtional one (as per @anon5422159 's photo) that would need to be hand painted every 5 years, when their nomal maintenance-free powder-coated alu one does the job?

What would stop them? The planning dept or council in general?

Only the planners could insist on it on a parade like this, however, that (I believe) is only in Conservation Areas, which I understand this isn’t. So this is why the pragmatist in me suggested crowd-funding for this.

It could only happen to Domino’s

And what made me laugh this morning - it happened in Aberdeen - the UK capital of mean.