Archived on 6/5/2022

Forest Hill’s Foxes

Rebecca_Headd
1 Nov '17

I thought I would share an informative fact sheet about the red fox written by Lewisham Council, dispelling common myths, ideas to deter them if you aren’t so keen on them and what to do if your find an injured fox or orphaned cub. This beautiful vixen lives in my garden and had three cubs this year. She was odly sleeping under my window one day making a great photo opportunity. She looks very healthy which is nice to see. I love wildlife photography and have quite a few of various foxes in and and around Forest Hill now.

https://www.lewisham.gov.uk/myservices/environment/animalwelfare/Documents/FoxInformationAdvice.pdf

appletree
2 Nov '17

We love the two foxes that live in and around our garden. We don’t feed them but also don’t disturb them.

divya_m
2 Nov '17

We had a mother and 6 cubs in our garden this summer. They were adorable. My toddler had hours of fun watching them play.

GillB
2 Nov '17

Only problem we had when we had a family of foxes coming into our garden was that they dug a hole in the grass looking for worms! It’s taken ages for the grass to grow again after the family went.

Cari_Hoskins
7 Nov '17

The leaflet doesn’t talk about dogs and foxes, only cays and foxes.
I am quite nervous about coming across a fox when out walking my dog in the evening. He goes absolutely crazy and yet the fox just stands there looking at us. I usually walking away quickly with crazy dog in tow but I’m worried what would happen if I turned a corner and one was right there. Would a fox run or fight a dog?
Doesn’t help that the neighbour is feeding them so they are ever present in our street :angry:

Rebecca_Headd
7 Nov '17

Is your dog scared or gets excited? I wouldn’t worry as foxes instinct is to run if under threat (like you see in fox hunting). Foxes will not fight unless they are forced to defend themselves in an attack by say a hunting pack of hounds and will always come out the worst (dead). If you turned a corner and suddenly came across a fox it would either stand stock still in shock or run. Some foxes are bolder and will stare but normally out of curiosity rather than intentional intimidation, or because people over feeding them have made them trust us (which is not good for them). Even if your neighbours didn’t feed them they would still be there as they have their own territories regardless of us humans. I’ve had foxes in my garden for years and don’t feed them.

Rebecca_Headd
7 Nov '17

wow 6 is a big fox litter - must be a healthy mum fox!

PhilipPetrou
8 Nov '17

I’m a keen wildlife photographer, love the pic great eye contact.
I’m always on the look for anyone who has a fox in there gardens especially with cubs.

Sandinista
8 Nov '17

Our dogs goes bananas when he sees a fox in the street too. Barks his head off and really strains at the lead to chase. He did once bolt when I wasn’t fully holding the lead as I opened the front door and a young fox was in the drive. For a few terrifying minutes they had a high speed chase up and down the street, leaping over walls and across the road (no car sense…) In the end the fox stopped and turned round. The dog stopped too, and they just stared at each other, looking a bit surprised. And I took him home!

Cari_Hoskins
10 Nov '17

So those wonderful foxes of ours did a disgusting dump on our front doorstep this week.
Not feeling the love!

Rebecca_Headd
27 Nov '17

More good info

MajaHilton
27 Nov '17

A fox that came to our garden had just killed a squirrel. Sad for the squirrel but glad that it was not human food in the middle of our lawn.
Few hours later no one would have guessed what had happened in our garden.

Rebecca_Headd
27 Nov '17

Another one of the fox in my garden this time snuggled up on top of an old shed.

Rebecca_Headd
27 Nov '17

yes I saw a squirrel leg on the street the other day - same thing must have happened there.

anon5422159
28 Nov '17

Whilst it’s a rare occurrence, accounts of attacks on cats trouble me most about foxes:

[cat fans of sensitive disposition - beware, there are some upsetting quotes below]

RachaelDunlop
28 Nov '17

Animals will be animals, and if we allow our cats free access to roam, they will be at risk of predation.

Rebecca_Headd
28 Nov '17

It is a rare occurrence as you say and I can see why it would be troubling. A study by Stephen Harris in Bristol asked 5191 homeowners in a high fox density area for their experiences. Of 1225 pet cats, eight had been killed by foxes the year before.

It is interesting to remember that an urban foxes territory might have up to 100 cats living in it and they do mostly live together without a problem. Foxes and cats meet many times every night and invariably ignore each other.

Saying that, I have a pic of a fox and cat playing together on a trampoline in my neighbours garden - I must find it.

I am fox lover and indeed a supporter of the Hunt Saboteurs Association. I find many people, particularly farmers and huntsmen like to emphasise these rare incidents to justify their desire to continue the bloody sport of ripping foxes apart by hounds (which still illegally continues and recently I had the very unfortunate displeasure of witnessing whilst out with the ramblers in Sussex!).

I also love eagles and wolves who equally need to predate to survive.

anon5422159
28 Nov '17

I’m no fan of fox hunting with hounds (I think it should be done humanely with high velocity rifles). I think it’s understandable that farmers would dislike foxes and want to control their numbers:

If we accept that predation by foxes is normal and healthy, then we ought to accept predation of foxes by humans too.

Foresthillnick
28 Nov '17

My cat, who is not known for being clever, chases foxes out of my garden. Despite having no canine teeth. I suspect he would not fair well if he actually caught one!

Jerry
28 Nov '17

Plenty of cats about so I am not at all concerned about the odd one being lost to a fox. Cats in turn decimate the song bird population, so nature has a means of correcting this.

What I do object to is foxes being fed by humans. This is bad both for the fox and the local environment.

RachaelDunlop
28 Nov '17

Only if foxes become proficient with firearms or learn to train dogs to hunt us down in our own homes.

Predation is not the same as control. A case can be made for the latter, but humans indulging in the former is not something I could support.

Tazmondo
28 Nov '17

The fox is only fulfilling its natural instincts to hunt and feed itself. The onus here is on the farmer to build more secure enclosures for his chickens so that foxes cannot get in, not on huntsmen to kill them needlessly.

anon5422159
28 Nov '17

If we’re to avoid being morally relativistic here, then the human hunter ought to break into the foxes den and bite the heads off 30 foxes in a killing frenzy, as per the foxes style. No?

RachaelDunlop
28 Nov '17

No, because as humans we have a moral compass and animals do not.

anon5422159
28 Nov '17

My moral compass tells me that if fox numbers are controlled, there will be less brutal predation overall.

RachaelDunlop
28 Nov '17

Like I said, control versus predation, by humans, are not one and the same, and the case for the first does not excuse the second. My case here is semantic as well as moralistic.

Rebecca_Headd
28 Nov '17

An informative extract from “Foxes Unearthed: A Story of Love and Loathing in Modern Britain” by Lucy Jones (and a cracking very balanced read)

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" Where foxes get a particularly bad reputation is not over lambs but chickens. Birds make up a part of the fox’s diet and lots of smaller, free-range holdings can be vulnerable to fox predation. It must be traumatic to walk out in the morning to collect your eggs and be met with Parsley and Blossom with their heads ripped off, especially for the growing number of people keeping chickens as part of a sustainable lifestyle, often in urban areas. No wonder that people who’ve had their chickens - or a pet, which happens rarely - taken by a fox may often feel less inclined to support the fox.

The image that doesn’t help the fox’s cause is that, if it gets into a henhouse, it may end up killing a number of chickens and leaving their bloody, ripped-apart corpses in the coop, leading to the assumption that the fox has gone on some kind of psychotic Patrick Bateman-esque murdering spree - that it kills for fun.

There are two reasons for what it’s doing. The first is called surplus killing, a behaviour that is common in above 200 of the species in the order Carnivora. It happens in the wild when a predator is faced with abnormal behaviour in its prey, such as birds nesting in the wrong place. It’s a little like when we’re met with a box of chocolates: even if our bodies don’t need the sugar or calories, we may indulge in more than a couple.

The second is the fox’s tendency to cache any surplus food. It is a great hoarder and will bury all kinds of food, from rodents to birds to frogs and rabbits, to eat at a later date by itself or to feed its family. The fox isn’t fussy about best-before dates or a bit of soil and sometimes the food will sit in a cache for several days.

So when a fox kills more than one chicken in a coop, it usually returns with intent on burying the rest of the food, which it will keep doing until all the birds are taken away. Farmers will set up a gun near the coop to kill the fox, because they know that the fox will be back to collect another bird for its cache.

Although we can never know what a fox feels, ‘fun’, as we perceive it, is an inappropriate assumption. ‘For pleasure, an animal will obviously kill because of positive feedback of having successfully got food and being able to eat’, said Dr Dawn Scott of the University of Brighton. ’ Foxes will kill more than they can eat at that period of time because they cache. Because they are opportunistic, if there is a chance to take more, and kill multiple times, take those animals and go and cache them to store for other periods. In the same way we fill up our larder, they fill up theirs’.

The chicken coop itself is an artificial environment. ‘That scenario would never happen in the wild’, said Dawn. ‘Humans have put it into an artificial scenario where that animal is exposed to multiple stimulus and the predatory responses are going to kick in’. Roger Burrows makes an apt comparison: why don’t we question why a lion kills a zebra, which he cannot possibly eat completely, when a small antelope would do? The fox, the lion, all other predators, kill and eat when they can, It’s up to humans to take measures to control their livestock.

While Richard Bowler has sympathy for people who have lost chickens to a fox, the blame lies, he said, with the human: ‘You’re an intelligent human being; you can build something that’s going to protect your animals. They (the foxes) shouldn’t be in there anyway because we should look after our chickens better than that’.

Harper Asprey Wildlife Rescue said ’ we often have rescue ducklings, and we are well able to protect them from foxes; we never loose them’. ‘So any claim from farmers that it is impossible to make a cage that those fierce foxes cannot break into, and livestock cannot be protected from predation, must be taken with a pinch of salt’.

At Village Farm, with so many foxes around, Rebecca takes special precautions to look after her chickens, with an electric enclosure. Recently, the batteries stopped working and she lost the chickens to a fox. Initially she griped and moaned but her fellow farmer reminded her ‘_You _gave your chickens to the fox’.

She put the clash between foxes and some farmers thus: ‘People like control. There’s a lot of control in people’s lives. Farming is: obliterate everything else bar the stuff you want. Its totalitarian. Look at it and step back: foxes really are our biggest and last predator in this country. We’ve knocked out the lynx, wolves, sea eagles. Foxes and badgers are the last bastion. People like control over things. People hate having foxes poo in their garden and think they’re scum for doing that. They think, I must have control over my empire, my space’.

It is foolish to judge a fox as we would a human. It is a wild animal and attributing intention or traits such as malice, revenge or psychopathy to it is a nonsense."

Rebecca_Headd
28 Nov '17

I doubt it. Fox hunters will carry on their “sport” regardless of the control of fox numbers. And regardless of any law.

anon5422159
28 Nov '17

[quote not from Rebecca but her linked article]

I’m not convinced people think about this in “empire” terms.

They simply think “I do not want my children and pets to be infected by the multiple parasites spread by fox poo. I do not want the smell, the mess or the danger of fox poo in my garden”

There’s nothing imperialistic or controlling about about these straightforward wishes.

RachaelDunlop
28 Nov '17

Many people also object to cat poo in their gardens, which also carries disease, including one which can be extremely dangerous to unborn babies. I trust you give their concerns equivalence to concerns about fox poo.

Rebecca_Headd
28 Nov '17

Yes it is called toxoplasmosis. Pregnant women and people with compromised immune systems should therefore not clean out cat litter trays or handle cat poo.

The parasite in fox poo is called toxocariasis ( a roundworm). The worms produce eggs which are then released in the faeces of infected animals and contaminate soil. You are more likely to catch toxocariasis from cat or dog faeces than fox. In extreme cases it can lead to blindness which is why in recent years dog owners have been encouraged to use poop-a-scoops.

Rebecca_Headd
28 Nov '17

Fair enough but in my opinion not strong enough to warrant hatred of foxes or hiring of pest control to shoot them.

anon5422159
28 Nov '17

@RachaelDunlop, @Rebecca_Headd - whereas cats generally bury their poo, foxes do it anywhere they fancy, and there are multiple serious parasites carried by foxes including the ones you’ve mentioned, plus this, notably:

In addition to the above - sarcoptic mange can be spread from foxes to dogs, too - an agonising way for them to die.

The difference between pets and foxes is that pets health is kept in good shape by their owners, and owners will also generally ensure that poo is picked up (in the case of dogs - for cats this usually isn’t necessary). Foxes have a larger roaming range, and scavenge bins and rotting carcasses.

Foxes are not equivalent to pets at all.

Jerry
28 Nov '17

I would still rather live alongside a few wild foxes than an increased number of rats - which undoubtedly would be the case if fox numbers in our area declined. I can put up with both the screaming vixens and occasional fox poo, but I really cant stand rats!

It is probably James Herbert’s fault…!

RachaelDunlop
28 Nov '17

I didn’t say they were. It’s your black-and-white view of this argument that means I’m stepping away now because you keep making reductive statements and there ain’t no sense in trying to nail that particular jelly to the wall.

Carry on…

anon5422159
28 Nov '17

I answered your comparison between fox and cats. Sorry if my later statement came across as reductive but bear in mind it wasn’t particularly aimed at you.

Londondrz
28 Nov '17

Weirdly, we never see foxes up here. Loads in our garden back in London though.

Jerry
28 Nov '17

I grew up in the countryside and believe I only saw a single fox during those twenty odd years… Moving to London was certainly full of surprises!

RachaelDunlop
28 Nov '17

No you didn’t because I never said foxes were equivalent to pets. I said I believed there is an equivalence about health concerns with both fox and cat faeces. I stand by that statement. Cats bury their faeces very shallowly. I am constantly kicking up my cat’s poo in the garden where she thinks it’s well buried but it isn’t. Cats also like to defecate in kids’ sand pits, which is a real problem. And with the best will in the world, it’s impossible to keep a pet cat with outdoors access 100% parasite free.

It’s not a case of Pets Good, Foxes Bad. Like all things in life, there are many positions between the two that can and do hold true at different times and different circumstances.

anon5422159
28 Nov '17

Who claimed that?

Foresthillnick
28 Nov '17

Predation is defined as a relation between animals in which one organism captures and feeds on others.
Maybe a fox curry would be some tastes but not mine. Let’s not mince words - humans do not predate on foxes - we just plain kill them - for good or bad.

There is also this myth of the killing frenzy. I say myth really because of the frenzy as they do of course kill. Frenzy is just more anthropomorphic rhetoric - what foxes do is what a lot of predators do - Surplus killing. Cats do it too as do our beloved dogs.

RachaelDunlop
28 Nov '17

No one. I was just pointing out that taking that position with no acknowledgement that there are problems (and virtues) associated with both foxes and pets would be foolish. In which case, I’m sure no one here DOES think that. Right?

anon5422159
28 Nov '17

When I looked up “predation” I got this:

predation
prɪˈdeɪʃ(ə)n
noun

  1. the preying of one animal on others.
    “an effective defence against predation”
  2. the action of attacking or plundering.
    “the old story of male predation and female vulnerability”
anon5422159
28 Nov '17

Agreed. And likewise, earlier, I was just pointing out:

Not reductive. Just a statement.

Rebecca_Headd
28 Nov '17

Yes this is all possible but also extremely rare.

In addition mange is very easy to successfully treat and there would be no need for a dog to die in an “agonising way” as you put it, if they even get it in the first place. This is sensationalism on your part.

You cannot demonise an animal or justify a hatred or killing of them because of the above. It that were true I could spend all day demonising cats, dogs and birds and many other animals.

These types of sensationalist attitudes are all to common in my work in swift conservation and this can be highly damaging to many species and undermines the hard effort that goes into protecting them.

Newspapers like to sensationalise and whip up emotional frenzy and many fall prey to it.

RachaelDunlop
28 Nov '17

It seemed reasonable to view that statement as a reduction of my position given it came at the end of a post in which you addressed me directly with a tag. If it was a more general statement addressed to the wider readership, then my apologies.

Bet you’re wishing I’d kept my modding hat on now. :wink:

anon5422159
28 Nov '17

I understand your position, and I’m just trying to illustrate why some people might hate foxes (personally, I don’t hate them - I just dislike people encouraging them into urban areas where they cause damage, disease and nuisance).

The point about attitudes and conservation is an interesting one. My sister is a marine biologist and conservationist.

When she led a ecology project out in Belize, one of the key priorities of her project was to reduce the population of lionfish. Lionfish are an invasive, poisonous species that had overrun local populations of fish and marine life, causing multiple extinctions, and generally hurting biodiversity and fish stock. So part of my sister’s work was educating local people about the problems caused by lionfish, arranging for them to be culled, and also teaching local people how to remove the lionfish spines so that they could be safely cooked and eaten.

Basically, “demonising” (as you put it) the lionfish.

This was a difficult remit for an ardent vegetarian and do-no-harm type like my sister. But she recognised it was vital to preserve other life, and to redress a natural balance.

Rebecca_Headd
28 Nov '17

Yes, I can see that and of course there are species that can be damaging and control is needed for biodiversity purposes - much like deer for forest regeneration and habitat creation for capercaillie and wild cats in Scotland. I just don’t think urban foxes fall into that category.
However, there are cases where rural foxes do fall into this category and this is in the case of foxes predating on rare ground nesting birds on some RSPB reserves, where measures have been taken to control them, to protect these birds.

Foxes have been spreading into urban areas since after the second world war and there are now thought to be up to 10,000 foxes in London alone. Whilst there is more food here, that has always been the case and experts believe this is more down to the way suburbs have trailed out in to the countryside between both world wars, providing the perfect habitat for foxes. So I don’t think people have intentionally encouraged them into our cities. It seems they are here to stay and maybe we should find a way of getting along with them or at least tolerating them. I believe most of the common grievances against them are easily remedied so hopefully we can live in harmony.

I appreciate being able to have a good mature discussion Chris, so thank you :slight_smile:

Foresthillnick
28 Nov '17

https://www.nature.com/scitable/knowledge/library/predation-herbivory-and-parasitism-13261134

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/predation

:slight_smile:

mmm foxes - yummy.

anon5422159
28 Nov '17
smiris
28 Nov '17

Politicos???

anon5422159
28 Nov '17

They’re native to the U.K., but not to towns and cities:

Rebecca_Headd
28 Nov '17

Very good article.

Michael
28 Nov '17

Lots of great photos of foxes at the Horniman:

Rebecca_Headd
28 Nov '17

Lovely, I must go and visit.

Rebecca_Headd
29 Nov '17

Two fox stories from SNARL (South Norwood Animal Rescue and Liberty -who have been heavily involved in the cat killer investigation) this week:

The first a fox found on Saturday in Warlingham thought to sadly be the victim of the cat killer

The second a poorly fox they rescued today found cowering on someone’s front doorstep in West Norwood

Rebecca_Headd
28 Dec '17

A few weeks ago I found a poorly fox in my garden with a bad case of mange. I had heard that if you contact the National Fox Welfare Society and fill out an online form they send you free mange treatment. So I did that but it didn’t arrive and the mange was getting worse. I read up a bit more about it and found out that mange will kill a fox if left untreated within four months, and it won’t be pleasant. I was also worried as it was very cold and I wasn’t sure the fox would be able to regulate his temperature with a big bald patch.

I was pointed to the Mama Cat Trust - a London charity who deals with cat and fox rescue. I sent them pictures and they were great and came out and gave me the medicine straight away, which you slip in a jam sandwich. Two doses are needed 10 days apart. The fox has now had both doses and three weeks later his fur has started to slowly grow back and it looks much less sore.

So if you see a fox with mange no matter how small, please contact Mama Cat Trust who will help. You will save its life.

Rebecca_Headd
28 Dec '17

Also Mama Cat Trust are always looking for fox rescue volunteers and have monthly meetings to find out what it is about. I will be starting next year along with training how to rehabilitate swifts!

Rebecca_Headd
21 Jan '18

Excellent fur re-growth now!

Rebecca_Headd
21 Jan '18

Definitely not :slight_smile:

Brett
24 Jan '18

Cats only bury their poo if they are a subordinate in the area. If a cat thinks it is TC, then it will just place its stool in the most prominent position possible to mark its territory. In the past, this has frequently been on top of herbs in our kitchen garden which is quite revolting. Foxes help with this as they will take over as dominant in the area. This has certainly happened to us and though it sometimes means dealing with fox crap instead, this is generally less repulsive to deal with and just sited on the lawn typically. In any case, have no issue with tidying up after a wild animal - someone else’s pet is a different matter.

Foxes rule, literally. :wink: Just don’t feed them!

InTheNightGarden
17 Jun '18

Getting pretty fed up with the foxes coming in our house of an evening.having to close the patio doors each time you leave the room for a minute is a complete pain. Tried keeping a water pistol to hand, and sprinkling urine near where they enter the garden but neither truck appears to work. Suggestions please?

oakr
17 Jun '18

Not sure if you meant to reply directly to me but I can’t help I’m afraid!

Whilst I am a fan of foxes generally I would not like that and it does not sound right - I wonder if Lewisham council could help? Certainly no good of they are doing that, especially in houses where there might be young children.

This might not be practical but could you borrow a dog for a bit? I wonder if the dog being there and / Or the smell would put them off?

InTheNightGarden
18 Jun '18

Sorry, my question wasn’t aimed directly at you, but to the thread in general!

GillB
18 Jun '18

Maybe try ringing a pest control company? They may have some good ideas. The thought of them actually entering your house is scary indeed.

anon86223367
4 Sep '18

Found a badly injured fox in our work and The Fox Project came down and are now taking care of him. A good port of call if you find an injured fox in the area. They were with us within an hour.

http://foxproject.org.uk/