Is HOP being ripped off by TfL?





I skimmed the article (I wasn’t aware of this particular case), but I don’t see the issue. Shoreditch High Street required a very big investment, and the area has benefited enormously from that station. Why shouldn’t the users of the service pay a little bit more? Things cost money, someone has to pay for them, why not make it slightly more expensive for the direct users of that particular service? And as a non-user of Shoreditch High Street I’m glad they didn’t jack up the prices across the whole network. Or did I misread the article?


I think you read it right.

if they did that everywhere we saw improvements then fair enough, but thats not the case. For example London Bridge had a much bigger investment but users fare levels didn’t increase.


There is a nuance in this. If you travel through Shoreditch you will pay a central zone fare too.


Good work, @Paul_Hyu!


That was quick! Strictly speaking, I haven’t contacted TfL yet! But it’s good that it’s gathering momentum. I am pleased he used Lewisham as the comparator and not my own red herring of East Putney.

The argument is simpler and more effective using a neighbouring station.

What I have done so far apart from speak to the journalist:

  1. contacted the local MP and the relevant Councillors to see what support if any will be forthcoming and

  2. have discovered who in TfL should be contacted when and if we agree to proceed to a formal case.


You might also want to speak to people in Crofton Park and Balham and Tooting and Tulse Hill, because if HOP is moving to zone 2, then I think these places probably deserve to be in zone 2 too.


I am just interested in HOP but you are welcome to do the same for these other places if you feel that way. Especially as you seem to be a get up and get it done sort of person.

What I can see from your map, (which is quite unhelpful as doesn’t show the overground line in question, nor the stations you mention, nor the comparable zones 2&3 that I am arguing for) is that zone 2 extends quite some way out East, but doesn’t include many stations in it. I can see that stations in zone 2 far East, such as Canning Town (6.14 miles) West Ham (6.12 miles) and North Greenwich (5.97 miles) are further away than HOP (5.63 miles) from the designated “centre” of Piccadilly Circus. This is the basis of the argument and this makes it easier to argue. Many stations are further away and in a nearer zone. I think it would be fair to redesignate HOP as Zone 2&3. QED!

In fact, I think if HOP were on your map a designer could easily make a nice swoosh that would include HOP. And Crofton Park is 5.68 miles, so you were right! I might add this one into the argument to make it about the entire area. Thanks!


This isn’t perfect but it is closer to what you requested:

There possibly a better map below which shows that Crofton Park certainly belongs in Zone 2/3.

but it also shows that the shape of the boundaries are fairly arbitrary. Zone 1 accurately reflects something called Central London. Zone 3 (boundary with zone 4) is more or less circular (unlike the South and North circulars), but zone 2 edge does not map out a line equidistant from zone 4 and zone 1.

And why no Boris bikes in Camberwell, Rotherhithe, Peckham, and Brixton?
And why is the ULEZ planned for the north and south circulars when when is twice as far out as the other, and one is a trunk road and the other is a local road?


I completely agree that the Boris Bike scheme is pretty much a north of the river affair.

I also think that it will be hard work to get even an official response from TfL as to why the zoning is as it is, even though they have apparently stated there are no plans to change anything currently on the table. I think if there is enough public support for it, then that could change but it depends on how people feel, in what numbers and whether we get support from our local MPs and Councillors.

I will pick my battles for now, stick to the HOP and Crofton Park vs other Eastern stations (& Lewisham) argument - and am still waiting to hear from our hardworking representatives that they even received my email let alone have thought about it! There are probably a lot of people living further away that will think this is a petty thing to be campaigning on, given that the difference in cost is relatively small. It is smaller than I thought it would be myself. But the argument is still valid. If there is general apathy, especially from our elected reps, then it will be hard to get an official answer let alone a decision in our favour.


Hi Paul - great work so far. Keep in mind the use of HOP by South Eastern, who may have a contract to use HOP at Zone 3 pricing and compensation payments as a result of this.


I think there are indeed much bigger forces and issues at play here than sheer distance from Piccadilly Circus, but I will continue until there is at least an official pronouncement on the matter from someone.

Also, it’s a good test of our so called representatives’ power, skill and willing.

I think TfL, Railtrack, Overground and other bodies would all have to agree to this, which is a long way off.

I suppose in the grand scheme of just how much we the public are being ripped off in Britain as a whole for terrible public transport, particularly outside of London, then this is a completely minor matter on a line that is much more reliable and regular than anything Northern Rail (for instance) can deliver.

If something is unfair on the face of it, which this matter seems to be, it would be satisfying for a change to get someone in an official capacity to explain why the status quo exists and at least answer their so called “customers” or “constituents”.


Indeed - as always more of a financial issue than locational. TFL can hardly afford another hit to their budget and they would also need to foot all compensation payments to other network users. It is very tricky. In saying that - its been done before so, why not HOP for the reasons you have set out. If you do not ask…


The area’s MP Vicky Foxcroft has now written to TfL to ask for an explanation.

Councillor Chris Barnham has replied to my email and is being supportive.

Two other councillors have not yet deigned to acknowledge receipt of my email, let alone reply, which being as it is over two weeks seems a little slow.

I will sporadically post here how this pans out.

(I have a feeling that the side issue of how well our representatives in the area serve us and whether we need the CLP to select new ones on our behalf might be as interesting to some people as we go further down this road).


To be fair to our councillors they aren’t paid, have a lot of stuff to consider and I would hope prioritise the most needing in our society.

While I regularly want to question the priorities of elected representatives I always have to stop and remember that I’m not prepared to stand for election and do it myself.


The councillors are paid, actually, but it’s not much money at all and they have a pretty thankless task.


Just checked it out and yes, more than I thought but not really enough for anyone to be there ‘for the money’ in my opinion.


It’s not enough pay. I agree.

The low pay means that if someone is relying on councillors’ votes for, say, planning permission for a multi million pound development it’s no surprise that the pages of Private Eye are full of instances of “FIFA,-style” shenanigans.

I use this analogy because our HOP Councillors (with the honourable exception mentioned above) have so far done Sweet Football Association!

They will of course shortly be in touch, as soon as they realise they are being discussed here. But 17 days and counting to acknowledge an email is pretty poor by any standards, especially someone whose job it is to represent the person.


Have you thought about attending any of the councillor surgeries? They will all be at Crofton Park library this Saturday.


I regualrly contact councillors about a range of issues and usually receive a reply from one of the three. Generally a response from one speaks for all (when they are all in the same party) and particular issues will be taken forward by one of the three acting for all rather than requiring responses from each.

You may also wish to contact the HopCroft forum which could make changes to the station part of their neighbourhood plan. There are other local residents that would be worth contacting - such as the former chair of London TravelWatch.