Making streets safer in HOP

With Dominos soon to open on the parade, we’ll likely have a few more delivery mopeds tearing around HOP. I realise it’s part of city life so I can’t grumble too much, but I’m worried, and pretty annoyed, about the vast number of motorbike and moped riders cutting through the emergency access junctions between Grierson and Garthorne, and Gabriel and Bovill Roads. They’re fast, noisy and unsafe.

If motorbikes and mopeds aren’t allowed to drive through these little pinch points, then I think the signage needs to be a lot clearer. At the moment there are a couple of blue circular signs at the Grierson/Garthorne Junction indicating that it’s a cycle route. I’d like to see something that clearly points out there should be no access for motorbikes or mopeds at any time. Cameras would be even better.

Anyone else?

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Those blue signs are the ones which indicate it’s access for push bikes only, aren’t they?

I think so, yes. But several moped/motorcycle drivers either don’t know that or just choose to ignore them.

Perhaps one answer would be to put a concrete block in place.
Pedal cyclists could lift their bicycle over the block.

Or maybe something like this:

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This to me smacks of enforcing laws for the sake of it. The barriers are there to stop trucks driving up and down the streets and whatnot which they do. If Domino’s were using electric mopeds would you still have the same issue?

I had no idea motorcycles and mopeds weren’t allowed to use those gaps. I live quite near them and would LOVE it if they were for bicycles only. If you’re right, then I agree that the metal barriers @anon5422159 posted look ideal!

Yes they look ideal!

@Moto_Hodder this isn’t an anti-Dominos rant, although I’m not relishing their appearance in the ‘hood.

It’s more about safety. I have a little girl and just yesterday we were crossing the Garthorne Road junction when a motorbike came roaring up. He had to brake sharply as he was heading to the barriers. When I pointed out that he shouldn’t have been driving through them anyway, he was extremely rude. That’s what prompted me to post last night.

Sounds horrible - but I think that’s just the problem - rude people are going to be rude. Putting more explicit signage will probably reduce the number of people going through who shouldn’t, but the same people who roar through now will roar through regardless.

At Shoreditch High St under the railway arches there is clear signage and road layout to make it clear that motorbikes are not permitted. Almost every time I come through the arches there’s a motorcycle disregarding this.

I wish I had something more positive to say.

So frustrating! Perhaps barriers are the way to go then. Signs are too easy to ignore.

Since that junction is on a recognised cycle route, I’d be surprised if more physical barriers are approved.

Again - wish I had something more positive to say. You will be able to complain to Dominos if their drivers are cutting through there, tho. I remember people talking about Deliveroo riders doing something similar. At least with Dominos there will be a place you can definitely tie the riders back to.

As a motorcyclist I have pointed out to other motorcyclists and scooter riders that they cant use entrances like this. 99% of the time I get told to do one. Some people are just t%ssers.

Thanks for fighting the good fight!

I agree that signage isn’t the issue here. I have witnessed the same behaviour at the places @AgentBlonde mentions and also, probably more so, at the junction of Grierson Road, north side of Honor Oak Park. This worries me slightly more as my kids, for instance, know to stop at a kerb but there isn’t one there so it is an accident waiting to happen.

I tried reporting it (Grierson northside) to the council and Met police and was met with complete indifference/silence. It’s a shame they are so focused on monitoring box junction infringements rather than keeping people safe on pedestrian areas.

Occasional stops by plod in hi-vis does nothing as the bikes all just turn around at Riseldine rd.

Real cameras plus camera signs would dissuade most of the legit mopeds/mbs. I’m quite tempted to record them, tag the plates and publish them all on YouTube and shame the council/met/tfl into acting on it.

FWIW, the restrictive gates can stop ped bikes with front boxes and recumbents, which isn’t ideal either.

Next time I see someone ride through I’m certainly going to try to take a video or pic.

I wouldn’t, personally been threatened to be stabbed twice for doing so.

Wow, perhaps not then. In HOP?

I would advise against as well. Had some trouble in HOP before when trying to get details of a well known offender on video.

Yes ditto

FH.

Jeez. What can be done then? Sounds like the answer is “Nothing” which feels a bit depressing… I just heard a motorbike roar up to the gap, brake, wiggle through and then accelerate away at top speed about a minute ago… Feel a bit about it all…

Re. the restrictive gates stopping bicyclists with front boxes and recumbents, it looks like 99% of cyclists would be able to get through those gates in the photo @anon5422159 posted - I think it’d be worth it, no?! Those rare bikes that couldn’t fit would have to dismount and walk onto the pavement for a metre’s distance or so… not the end of the world? Seems vastly preferable to 50+ motorbikes/scooters racing through every day illegally…

I’ve just emailed traffic@lewisham.gov.uk - will let you know if I hear anything. Have counted 4 motorbikes going by since I last posted a message 20 mins ago.

Try living off Perry Hill. We have powerful motorbikes racing up and down it every day.

@janelouise there must be something we can do to at least get some local councillors to take notice of this.

Happy to have a chat and hatch a plan together if you like?

@MajaHilton I know you’ve stepped down now but do you know who would be the best person or people to contact about this issue please? Any pointers would be very welcome. Thanks.

Our councillors are in the Crofton Park Ward. They are decent and will listen to what you have to say.

http://councilmeetings.lewisham.gov.uk/mgMemberIndex.aspx?FN=WARD&VW=LIST&PIC=0

Hi all - I emailed Lewisham traffic and received the response below. I’m going to reply to her now with a photo of the metal barriers shared by Chris Beach above, and see what she says. @AgentBlonde, I’d be delighted to join forces about this - not sure how to share private contact details on this site but if you can drop me a line somehow, we can decide how to proceed!

Dear Jane

Thank you for your email.

I’m afraid there are no physical measures that we can use that will prevent motorcycles using this space, but will still allow pedal cycles through.

This is really a matter for Police enforcement as it is a moving traffic offence.

I’m sorry I can’t give you a more helpful reply.

regards

Imogen Payami

Casework – Transport

Regeneration and Place
London Borough of Lewisham
4th Floor | Laurence House | Catford | London SE6 4RU
Tel: 0208 314 2235 | Fax: 020 8314 3137|

www.lewisham.gov.uk

Hi @janelouise. To send a PM, please tap the username of the recipient then tap the Message button.

Private messaging is a feature that gets automatically enabled for members after they’ve participated on the site for a while - I can see that you have been granted access to this feature.

Rather unimpressive reply from Lewisham, so yes it sounds like a great idea to send them some alternative suggestions. I’ll write to them too.
PS @janelouise I’ve sent you a message

Hi all - see below - another (speedy) response from Lewisham to my emailed photo of the possible barriers. Sounds like there’s nothing they can do and it’ll have to be a police matter of getting cameras or something installed to track who uses the gap…?

Dear Jane

Thank you for your reply.

With regard to trying to use physical measures to prevent access by motorcycles whilst allowing cycle access our understanding is that there are inherent problems in trying to achieve this. One of the leading guidance documents for designing for cyclists is The London Cycle Design Standards (LCDS). On this matter the LCDS states in its section on access controls:

“Physical barriers, such as A-frames and chicanes, are not generally recommended. The costs, benefits and disbenefits of introducing them must be made clear in any design process. Consultation with user groups should be informed by clear and accurate information about what the options are and by the obligation to maintain access for people with protected characteristics under the Equality Act 2010. Cycle access needs to be understood as access for all types of cycle, including recumbents, tricycles, cargo cycles and any model adapted for a person with a mobility impairment.”

Any such measures could also make access for buggies, particularly double buggies difficult.

We are sorry we can’t provide a physical solution to this issue, but clearly we need to bear in mind the implications of the Equalities Act 2010 in works we carry out on the highway.

Kind regards
Imogen

Very helpful resonse.

I take their point, but buggies? I don’t think I once wheeled our daughter through that gap - oddly decided that staying on the pavement was perhaps the better and safer option…

The problem is, there are pavement on both sides, buggies, people etc can use them. Cyclist can use the cyclist areas. Others use them, they shouldn’t do, but they do. The police and council have bigger fish to fry, it’s not their fault. The council and police have worst things to deal with, stick to the pavements and report the plates of any scooter that rides through. Don’t be a hero and confront them, it won’t end well

Hi @AgentBlonde sorry been too busy to respond but happy to add weight to this too. Witnesses Deliveroo bike yesterday rat running from brockley rise into Gabriel sfreet and car turning out from Wylue nearly hit him. Will be hard to get Lewisham to respond positively. I wonder if pressure on Deliveroo / dominos or whoever the company the offenders work for might be the way forward. We have to try and get ref numbers of offenders and take it from there

Hypothetical question:
Would people here be happy if scooter + motorbike riders dismounted and used the pavement at this junction?

@beige I definitely wouldn’t be happy about that! My priority is that my four-year-old daughter and her scooter-riding buddies should be safe on the pavements.
Legally, motorbikes and mopeds aren’t allowed to ride through those barriers. As a car driver I also have to observe the rules of the road, and sometimes that means taking the long way round.

The way I see it, dismounting and walking the vehicle on the pavement would often be the most efficient route for a law abiding scooter/motorbike rider. I don’t think this would be dangerous.

What I worry about is that if more effective barriers were put in a portion of the vehicles would simply ride on the pavement while mounted. This would definitely be dangerous, and I doubt whether the police would be able to prevent it sufficiently such that the end result would be a better situation than the current one. It doesn’t make me happy to express such a cynical view…

Yes, good point. It’s a tricky situation isn’t it.

Agreed. I think @Tersie’s suggestion of contacting the delivery company armed with reg numbers is the way forward.

It’s defo something to do (although time-consuming - not sure when I will be able to sit at the gap armed with my phone/camera!) but it’d only work for branded delivery drivers - which are a chunk of the offenders, but by no means all of them… I guess we could try and find a day/time when we could rota in and try to catch people in the act?

Regardless, anyone who’s interested in adding weight, please could you make yourselves known here and we can add you to the group chat about this?

Yes please include me @janelouise

When I saw vehicles driving the wrong way down Manor Mount I took the reg if it was a liveried vehicle and called the company. A well known estate agent acted very quickly to stop a member of staff doing this. Worth a go in this situation as well.

Another thing we can do is put pressure on Deliveroo / Uber / Take away places own motorbike drivers is to make the reg plates of their bikes available to local police so if the public complain they can (hopefully) take action. If they are flouting highway laws they shouldn’t be associated with them / employ them?

Sadly, Deliveroo doesn’t have a great track record in this area: there’s a long discussion on this thread about one of their delivery people Deliveroo has arrived!.

This is one area where I think Domino’s is much better - their drivers are clearly going to be employed by the local restaurant, clearly using their livery etc. and should therefore be more clearly accountable.

Just read this. If we put enough pressure on uber-eats and Deliveroo we might get somewhere!

Yes, please count me in too @janelouise.