New street art on Perry Vale

Nathan Bowen’s currently working on a pretty striking piece on one of the neglected billboards on Perry Vale. Living opposite, it’s amazing watching it take shape.

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Thanks for posting this @Fran_487.

While I love Nathan Bowen’s art in general, it seems people can get away with a lot if they do it in the name of “anti-racism” (assuming that’s the subject of this latest imagery)

Whatever the campaign, IMO it’s not okay for campaigners to treat public spaces as their personal canvas.

Just imagine how 69.9% of Forest Hill residents would feel if Brexit campaigners were the ones daubing slogans over this billboard.

If it’s not okay for one campaign group, then it’s not okay for any campaign group.

So cool. You’re so lucky. I love Nathan Bowen’s characters. I might have to wander over and have a gander. What part of Perry Vale is this?

Right up by the underpass. He’s been there all morning and has a while to go. I’m a bit nervous to interrupt him but I can’t wait to see it complete! Also his dog is the best behaved dog I’ve seen in a while

Thanks for fixing the pic orientation @anon5422159 and yes this probably belongs in it’s own thread.

Ha. Took me a moment to find the dog while looking at the picture at a 90 degree angle. Looks like the pup found the one bit of shade. I’ll take a bottle of water when I pass.

Look forward to seeing it when it’s done, can you share a pic?

Of course! Trying to do a timelapse too. But I only had the idea after about two hours, so quite a lot of time has already ‘elapsed’.

Does the artist not have permission?

Great idea, thanks

And didn’t Brexit campaign have loads of billboards? Not sure what the comparison here is, and why painting anti racist art ellicits such a negative response.

If Nathan paid to use this billboard (and has permission) then I concede, he’s probably within his rights - although I’m not sure if billboard owners would allow content that could inflame racial grievance.

Does he have permission? That’s the question.

Right, so I don’t think such a critical first reaction is merited. And what racial grievance is this enflaming? It’s not even finished yet!

Okay @PV, lets wait to see what it looks like when it’s finished and not turn this into another long topic of tit-for-tat arguing please.

I might be wrong, and the picture might depict a cheerful and non-threatening bunch of people of all races holding banners with slogans that unite (as opposed to divide/judge/generalise) people. Let’s see.

Ugh. I just liked the painting and it seemed relevant to the previous discussion.

Back in my box.

It’s good that you posted this (which is why I helped by fixing the image, moving it to a dedicated topic and promoting it -neutrally- on the official SE23.life social channels).

From what I can see, no one wants you to go “back in your box”. I certainly don’t. Your posts on this forum are great.

Update: it occurred to me my first post on this topic came across as aggressive - I have toned it down.

I do appreciate you doing this, thank you

I agree we should wait til it is finished before casting judgement.

I will say though that it really worries me that whilst artists are putting up messages designed to show solidarity and challenge institutional racism, black members of the community will come to this forum and see the first reaction, before some of them are even finished, is one of critique and scepticism of anti racism campaigning. It’s not the impression I would want to set of SE23 so I want to be clear when I disagree.

Rather than making presumptions about the behaviour of a whole race of people, let’s wish for black people to come here and share their individual perspectives.

Whilst you presume they support protests like the ones depicted in this art, I’ve seen evidence that some black people passionately do not. So I certainly won’t be making race-based presumptions here.

There is nothing on this forum that prevents people (of all races) expressing their opinions here, and I don’t like the suggestion that any race might be scared to do so.

Why is scared in quotes? Please re read my post. I didn’t say that I thought anyone would be scared, in fact I didn’t presume anything, I said I was worried they would come here and see the reaction to these pieces of art…

I’ll remove the quotes if you prefer.

Well for the record, I find these messages in support of anti-racism (and deftly avoided in this discussion) a useful call/cry for unity, understanding and compassion. On a personal basis, I welcome them in our community. No doubt this billboard will be a point of conversation at the All In One if they are able to reopen on July 4th

I am very much looking forward to the final result and, should it be on this theme, hope it carries forth that positive message.

I can’t quite figure out who owns the space, but the two largest site owners - JCDecaux and Clear Channel - are both on record in support of the BLM movement and its principles, and committed to support it.

It used to be PrimeSight, but I think they got taken over a few years back. You can almost see the new branding plaque on the top left of Fran’s photo…

Either way, these billboards have seen some awful graffiti in the past so I’m hoping for something good here.

Nathan Bowen is prolific and you can see his work all over London. His work often includes slogans with positive messages. A lot of his work is quite commercial so its no surprise his prints, t-shirts, mugs of British-themed “demons” have become popular souvenirs for our lovely tourists. He’s just recently produced a face covering which I’m waiting on arriving.

I always feel lucky when a Bowen piece appears in the area. I do wonder if he is local.

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Completed.

Dam. I was just leaving the house.

Looks amazing.

The new owner is Global who also own the radio brands
Heart, Capital, LBC, Capital XTRA,
Classic FM, Smooth, Radio X and Gold.

Deleted post re Global

I find his style boringly repetitive.

That’s a shame. But luckily art is subjective Living opposite this, I’m lucky I enjoy his style.

Please can you nip across and add some women?

Ha! There’s no room in that crowd. Even with the new 1m rule.

That’s a great pic @Fran_487 - nice and sharp in the sunlight, cool shadows.

The art definitely goes with the zeitgeist and it’s a bit more subtle than the one around the corner. I do think it could have been Human and mix up the genders too.

I wondered about this… perhaps there is a reason.

Aha

It is specifically referencing Martin Luther King Jr and the photo of the Memphis Sanitation workers strike I think.

Ah thank you and @ForestHull for this context! I didn’t make the connection. Powerful.

so… what is the artist’s point?

Perhaps that 50+ years after the Civil Rights Movement we haven’t come as far as we thought or could have?

Neither did I, @anon5422159 and @LeeHC prompted me to find out more and the closest image I could. Great topic this - thanks for starting it!

Could be… I was really hoping @Starman was going out to try and catch up with Nathan and try to interview him for the FHSoc newsletter?

Who knows, but to generate discussion such as this is probably part I would think!

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A good idea. Though a broader piece on street art. The FHS also welcomes submissions so if anyone wanted to consider writing a piece, get in touch with us (or me).

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So good!

I’m afraid this comment smacks of unconscious bias. This is a great artwork and at this time in history artists need to show some activism. Isn’t that how Banksy made his trade.?

Looks incredible.

I simply don’t like this massive piece of graffiti, featuring a lot of angry and threatening looking men, protesting an injustice that happened decades ago, thousands of miles away

I think the art only inflames racial tension, and takes race relations backwards rather than forwards.

The U.K. police are very restrained in their use of force, compared to other police around the world, yet recent activism has prompted the police to be violently attacked by large mobs of people. Look at what happened in Brixton yesterday.

I dont view the art as only protesting an injustice decades ago, I see it as reminding us that the injustice is still here, and that it never went away. Given the conversation it has sparked here I think it’s doing a good job.

Edit: I think it’s also pretty obviously protesting the injustice we’ve seen recently in the murder of floyd, Taylor and many others, the fact that the imagery is from decades ago but is still relevant right now speaks volumes.

I’ve read the article you linked and can’t see the relevance to the street art.

This argument makes zero sense to me. Are we only supposed to protest things that happened recently/locally?

Well it all depends on our motivation, doesn’t it?

Do we want to fan flames by rekindling old/distant grievances? Or do we want to move on?

I spent some time with friends in Belfast and it was clear that the remaining paramilitary murals and violent propaganda daubed on houses was not helping people move on from the Troubles, even though those troubles happened before they were born in many cases. Luckily there are projects dedicated to removing these murals:

I’m not sure it’s for us to determine when the right time to move on is. It feels premature to be talking about moving on then the injustice is still happening.

I’ve read this narrative elsewhere, but I really don’t see the link.

So am I right in assuming you believe the disparities that led to the 1968 Memphis Sanitation Strike (depicted in Bowen’s graffiti) are present in the modern day UK?

If you believe this is the case, what changes do you propose in order to resolve it? As far as I know, racial discrimination has been illegal for many years in the UK, likewise racially-motivated hate speech. So what changes do you think are outstanding?

And how does this mural help prompt those changes?

Perhaps for the following reason:

Who says these men are angry and threatening? Is it because they are black and brown? Or because they are holding signs? Because otherwise they look exactly like the characters in all of Nathan Bowen’s art…

I’m a white person and subscribe to updates about “Perry Vale” on this forum which pop up in my email. I’ll be honest a lot of the comments and attitudes expressed here made me think more than twice about engaging…

What do you think this piece of art is actually about?

Also since when did street artists or protest groups ask for “permission”? Street art may be seen as more acceptable these days, and in some cases even commissioned by local government, but it was born out of unsanctioned protest and self-expression — and continues to emerge from that place.

I for one am more appalled by the “paid for” advertising which constantly feeds our unconscious biases and affects out thoughts and behaviours. Money and power buys influence and lets those in possession of it set the agenda (e.g.

)

So if Nathan wants to reclaim some vacant space for an entirely topical and relevant and necessary piece of art about a subject we should all be thinking about and taking seriously then I champion his bravery, skill and sensitivity.

I personally think the best way to be inclusive would be to approach the artist himself and ask for his reasons behind the work.

https://www.instagram.com/nathanbowenart/

I wonder if he thinks the grievances are “old and distant”? Or should even be categorised as “grievances”? That word seems to trivialise a struggle for equality and the right to a life free from fear because of your skin colour.

If your point is that equal pay for sanitation workers isn’t the issue in play here then we agree. But I see the link as being one of institutional racism which certainly still exists and has not been eliminated by the laws you reference.

I’m not going to list ideas I would like to be implemented but would suggest that the 35 recommendations in the Lanny report, the 110 in the angiolini review, the 30 in the Wendy Williams review and the 26 in the McGregor Smith review are a good starting point.

And the mural has clearly sparked a debate here, and could be a sign of solidarity for others, so i think it’s a force for good.

Please don’t make spurious accusations of racism.

These are not the expressions of cheerful and non-threatening men:

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And yet in another thread you were disappointed that these angry white cartoon characters have been painted over?

https://se23.life/uploads/default/original/3X/6/d/6d5857e05bb3f9f9bd9f3abc2d3b97091da1f6c0.jpeg

Frequently. From what I’ve seen of local street art (and I follow it keenly) - the vast majority of it has been done with permission by the landowner.

I’ve added asterisks to the subjective parts of your rhetoric, for which valid opposing arguments exist.

I was disappointed that some really talented bits of art were painted over. It wasn’t just Bowen’s angry characters painted on that hoarding. But nice try at undermining the consistency of my argument.

A bold move to throw out a random unsubstantiated statistic before pivoting to picking someone up on subjectivity (not sure what’s actually wrong with posting a subjective view in any event).

Let’s ask the experts.

@Lionel, in your opinion, is it fair for me to say that the vast majority of street art (specifically, murals) in Forest Hill is done with permission?

What about this?

Well, sure - he’d be able to explain his reasons, but bear in mind, no one is less objective about the artwork than the artist himself.

That’s funny, I thought it said 99%…

I edited it (prior to your comment, actually) because I knew someone would be pedantic about my use of this turn of phrase.

ETA: I’m not going to get drawn into silly tit-for-tat with you, @PV, as I have been before. Please, let’s hear from other people.

If only this forum was a little less pedantic eh? Then people might not have to put up with people inserting asterisks at each point of their post that is deemed to be subjective.

I’ll take that as a “no” then.

Hear hear, these bickerings are draining.

I like it. I like Nathan’s work and it adds something to our local area.

No all art should make you feel comfortable and if this makes people ask questions and explore their assumptions, then good.

In fairness I think that is a valid, albeit personal viewpoint on this piece of mural painting. An individual’s reaction to any piece of art can be quite varied. Even quite different from that intended by the artists. Which is often why artists can be loathe to ‘explain’ their work. I am reminded of a quote by George Bernard Shaw.

You use a glass mirror to see your face; you use works of art to see your soul.

And that often is case. How a person reacts to a piece of art gives us an insight to their character, their personality and most often their belief systems (and not to mean religion).

From my perspective, referencing the past to explain the present is a common practice in all forms of the arts be it literature and theater or in this example, the visual arts. It helps to reference events past and often demands the viewer to contextualize it in the present. The source work for this piece is not simply a protest of the 60s but a symbol noting the journey to true equality is far from over. Despite government legislation, racism is endemic and institutionalized. If you can accept there is anti-semitism institutionalized in one political party and islamphobia institutionalized in another, how far a reach can it be that racism exists in our society as well.

Art can be light and fuzzy… like a painting of a pretty girl in pig tails. And it can be challenging, even make some people uncomfortable. If that were a reason to remove art then our public spaces would be empty and our galleries filled with echos.

I for one am thankful for art like this. And let’s be clear… street art has for many years has acted as a commentary of current social and political issues. This Nathan Bowen piece may be new, but this type of work is as old as the quest for equal rights and treatment or people of colour, as well as LGBTQ, women, people with disabilities and many more who feel marginalized in our communities.

Long may this piece last (or until Global find an advertiser) as may others.

There is another empty billboard a few metres past this one. I’d welcome another piece by another artist to compliment our new Bowen.

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I think you double posted - feel free to delete one, I’m not choosing in case they’re slightly different and I get the wrong one

Oops. I was typing from my laptop. And then tried to add the picture from an edit on my phone. That didn’t seem to work so I then Whatapped the picture to myself to copy and paste into the message.

I’m going to blame the heat. El skorchio.

I liked your thoughtful post, @starman

This is the point that raises the biggest question for those of us who sincerely want to “fix” this issue.

If UK law is entirely fair to all races (and I believe it is), what more can we do?

What concrete changes would we make, if democratic/legal/judicial avenues have been exhausted?

…and are there dangers associated with this line of reasoning?

Yes - there is racism in everyday society, because there is racism in people’s minds. The law does defend people from manifestations of that racism (the law is currently looking into institutionalised problems you referred to), but the law cannot change how people think.

Efforts to “re-educate” people can backfire, and exacerbate their prejudices. Efforts to stigmatise certain thoughts (whether via the law or via social pressure) can lead to people getting defensive about those thoughts. Efforts to collectively organise one race against another definitely make things worse.

I think a better overall solution to the “hearts and minds” problem is for society to focus less on colour, and instead focus more on unifying aspects of society.

A side note on permission for the new Perry Vale street art - Global were publicly criticised by some of their own radio presenters for the company’s response to Black Lives Matters.

It is possibly that Global commissioned the work to try and have a stronger response. Or Nathan may have targeted a Global billboard specifically because of the other coverage.

Or it could all be a co-incidence.

Yes, I’ve noticed a lot of activists trying to coerce corporates into publicly announcing support for the Black Lives Matter organisation. And many corporates have done so.

Even if BLM was just about race (which it’s not), I still think it’s inappropropriate for corporates to comment on it. Not all employees agree with the promotion of identity politics, and the divisive statements made by advocates of BLM.

Since you asked.

1. Let’s all acknowledge racism exists in our society. And despite laws, can affect the very corporate bodies we work for or the public institutions that serve us.

I am appalled at the level of racism, abuse and threats levied at people like Shaun Bailey, our black Conservative candidate for Mayor and Sadiq Khan, our incumbent Muslim Mayor. I liken racism to a iceberg. What we see above the water pales into what we don’t easily see below.

2. Let’s take ownership of racism, even if we as individuals are not the problem. People from BAME communities suffer the effects of racism. But racism isn’t their problem, it is our problem… and for me personally that is from the position of a white male.

3. Laws can only go so far. So what this means is we should take the opportunity, when able, to challenge racism (or indeed prejudice of any type) if we are able and where we see it in our communities… in pubs, on the street and even on community forums.

4. At the same time, we must recognise that not everyone will change their minds. And when their core beliefs are challenged their prejudices may be exacerbated. That in itself is no reason to take positive action.

5. Understand that words have meaning… even if that meaning was unintentional. As much as we’re encouraged here to think before we post, the same adage should be adopted in our day to day life. Acknowledging that what we have said may be misconstrued, even apologizing is, in my opinion a place of strength not weakness. I wish many of our corporate and political leaders would understand this better.

6. On a practical level, act positively on recommendations on reports and commissions we already have and that are most often commissioned by government already. There is no real need for another one. Without positive action on those existing, and I’m not saying there haven’t been outcomes, these can been seen as nothing more than lip service. Throughout these reports trust, or a luck of it, is a prevalent theme. Let’s rebuild that trust.

7. And recognise there is a difference between Black Lives Matter (BLM), the de-centralized activist organisation AND Black Lives Matter (#BLM) the movement. While both have similar objectives specific to the black community, support of #BLM does not expressly mean support of BLM.

There is probably a few more I could add… and maybe someone else want to. And while I have written this treatise, I will be the first to admit that I do not fully follow it myself. I have faults, but I am trying. Unconscious bias exists in everyone. We cannot avoid it. But we can work to understand and address. I would highly recommend anyone who feels they do not have unconscious bias to take a course in it. I was shocked at how I found what I thought to be perfectly reasonable ideas and understand the negative impact they had on some of my work colleagues. It was eye-opening.

I can find some middle ground on that. Far too many corporate bodies jump on bandwagons. As it is a personal experience I will speak to when it affects the LGBTQ community. I value when corporate bodies show they are allies and support LGBTQ both within their organisations and in the communities they operate. For my own personal development, the use of a pride flag has essential for my own personal development where in my early years the discrimination I faced was destroying. But I am also sick to death in last couple of years with corporate bodies that now rebrand for Pride Month with a rainbow flag, and without any clear indicator of what that means to them. It becomes nothing more than June’s version of the Valentine Heart of the Halloween pumpkin.

I frequently challenge companies on their use of the pride flag in the absence of any stated reason for it. If you feel as strongly about corporations use of #BLM I would strongly encourage you to do the same.

But on the matter as to whether companies should or shouldn’t do that? On that we are opposed. Companies are profit-making centres. But frequently the most successful companies are good community citizens with CSR at their heart. Good companies are generally responsive to the social concerns of their employees. If that policy goes against the grain of an employee, they will have to make a decision on whether that in itself is a reason to look for a new employer.

Now back on topic. I wonder if we can encourage another street artist to bless us with some work on that other billboard.

Agree with most of your points, Jason.

But this one…

This idea of “collective ownership” of problems by identity groups.

Should all Muslims “take ownership” of Islamist terror, even the many peaceful Muslims who are not terrorists?

Should all black people “take ownership” of the violent Brixton riots and looting of 1985, even the many peaceful black people that stayed at home?

I mean, I can kinda see what you’re getting at. It is easier for people within the social / cultural group to effect change upon their peers.

But conversely, I’d argue that it’s society’s responsibility to distinguish perpetrators from innocent people regardless of race, and really we should be tackling societal problems at a societal level.

For me this article says everything about unconscious racism and disparity existing on a scale totally justifiable of protest.

It’s not just the responsibility of legislation to fix this, it’s a collective responsibility of white people as the majority holders of power, position and wealth, historically at the expense of others. And opening our minds and listening to people’s experience is the first step rather than employing cognitive dissonance and putting up walls.

And the problem with only ‘distinguishing perpetrators’ is that the majority of racial bias is discreet and likely in all of us in some way. It’s unlearning that in society. Highlighting it in conversation so people can recognise it in themselves.

As a white German kid growing up here being frequently called a Nazi and now working for a boss on another continent who clearly discriminates against Europeans I can assure you it is not just white people who have a responsibility to fix this and it’s not just about colour.

It’s the collective responsibility of ALL people to fix this.

Be excellent to each other - Bill & Ted movie 1989

I’ve no doubt there are elements of this. When I used to hire 1st \ 2nd line engineers I would often get people more than qualified for the role who were not getting hired elsewhere - I found typically I was getting people who fell into these categories:

1. What I would call non-typical names
2. Older applicants

Some of them just made no sense no-one else had hired them.

Whilst I understand your point, I’m not sure I fully agree with it but I’m not quite sure how to express so will come back to you!

I know some organisations and councils that send ‘blind’ CVs to hiring managers where details irrelevant to the role such as name, age, gender and so on are stripped from the CV and are confidential to HR.

Obviously in smaller companies this may be harder to organise, and employment history and experience can give away a lot about a person. At some point there’s likely to be a face to face interview too, but in terms of the first steps it does seem like a simple thing to avoid any bias, subconscious or otherwise.

Anyway, erm, something about street art on Perry Hill?

I wouldn’t conflate the two. You speak of collective responsibility for specific events be it terrorist acts or riots. In the latter there may be other smaller groups who share responsibility but let’s leave that for now.

I also want to add an illustration of unconscious bias, though not to suggest this was in play here. When selecting examples where one would question collective responsibility, such as Islamic terrorism or a riot largely from within the black community could there of also been example from outside these two section of our society? The answer may well be no, or none relevant to the point. I’m not using this as an example to criticise but to point out how and where unconscious bias exists. It’s the same we see from many on social media who point to the anti-social behaviour and violence at Bournemouth Beach Fest yesterday, yet ignore the last night street rave in Brixton - and vice versa.

I recognise this in myself as well. But you almost hit my point, I think.

Though I would say we have a responsibility to do so. And that is what I meant by take ownership. A society functions well when it’s community does. And we all have a responsibility in within that community. We cannot always rely on government regulation or laws. We have to take responsibility… or ownership

Sorry, I’ll comment no further off-topic.

As for the image, thanks to @anon5422159 and @ForestHull for the history behind it and to @Fran_487 for posting it.

I suppose it has led to discussion which is always useful despite (or because of) different perspectives.

I don’t have an artistic bone in my body but I think it might have been more powerful had their been a greater mix of people in the image - a modern take if you like - a we are all equal if you like and to represent the widespread support across all people for the core message - though I realise that is perhaps a slightly different way of presenting the argument.

Isn’t the whole purpose of this artwork trying to emphasise that we can’t just ignore and push ‘forwards’? Racism is just as prevalent in the UK as it is in the US and this piece is as important now as it was then.

In the words of Michelle Obama ’It’s up to all of us – Black, white, everyone – no matter how well-meaning we think we might be, to do the honest, uncomfortable work of rooting it out’

If we keeping ignoring the issue, artwork making a similar statement will keep appearing for decades to come; which I’m sure you’ll embrace just as much…

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Note that this is the artists signature style! Whether the faces are depicting builders, office workers, beefeaters, well known personalities even The Queen and Captain Tom. Yet because he has added dark colours and big hair and crowded them together it’s somehow seen as threatening?
Perception is everything!..and hence the conversation about race and injustice and inequality will continue…

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Your words, not mine.

I refer to your words

Yes. I don’t know where you saw any reference to colour or hairstyle? Or was that your own addition?

Cleary my addition to reiterate my comment on perception and why they would be perceived as angry and threatening? hence why I added example pictures of his style.

So you think dark colours and big hair are “threatening” characteristics?

All of Nathan Bowen’s characters have the same look.

Perhaps you could tell us what it is that was different about this artwork that made it seem “angry and threatening” compared to Nathan’s other work?

Or do you feel this way about his art in general?

I wasn’t comparing this to Nathan’s other work.

I was pointing out the fact that this imagery looks angry and threatening:

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Obviously feel free to disagree, but do not twist my argument by adding your own words into my posts, and as such, presenting me as a racist. That’s a pretty weak argument.

Okay - this looks unproductive.

It’s a bit early for a tea break, maybe a late croissant?

May I ask that before commenting further, please ensure you are adding to the topic rather than looping back and covering old ground. There are some fantastic posts up thread (and lots of pictures too):

• There is the completed picture from @Fran_487
• The origins of the phrase found by @anon5422159
• A historic photo of the protests which may have inspired it, as recognised by @LeeHC.
• @starman reflects upon the piece thoughtfully before laying out his own treatsie and relating to wider topics of equality and bias.
• @oakr sums up his own conclusions nicely.

There are many posts in between giving varying opinions and counter-points too.

This topic is how open again (just in time for lunch!)

Racism was very prevalant in the US in 1968 (the year of the protest depicted in Bowen’s piece). In fact some members of the US police force had KKK connections at the time. It was an appalling period of US history.

By suggesting the current environment in the UK is similar to 1968 Memphis (and I don’t think it is), you lend legitimacy to anti-police sentiment amongst minority communities, and you should be mindful of the negative consequences of that, both for citizens and the police, the vast majority of which are completely innocent and well-meaning people.

Welcome to the Forum @glenny002

I personally don’t like this style of “art,” but then I was never a fan of Scarfe who had a similar style (to me anyway).

Racism IS very prevalent in the US now (I have friends and colleagues who experience it) and it is in the UK though it may be more subtle.
It is a sad realistic fact that indirect and direct discrimination, institutionalised racism and unconscious bias based on skin colour does exist in the UK. I experience it friends and family experience it and unfortunately some a lot more severe than others and not on a one-off basis.
Bear in mind also that art is often personal to the artist in terms of his own experience/feeling too.

Everyone is allowed a personal point of view when it comes to art but there is negativity in saying that this work is “angry and threatening”. It is in line in style with his other artwork i.e. same face same expression and just like his “Thank you NHS” pieces it adds to the conversation of the moment.

I look at this art and those 2 words do not come to mind; even if it takes its inspiration is from an image from 1968 it seriously can’t be denied that it is not in context and relevant to the narrative of current times.

Those choice of words are interesting because that is the nature of the wider discourse that black/people of colour are often perceived to be more “angry and threatening” and hence more extreme measures are too often used against them.

Believe me I am not trying to twist anyone’s words or paint anyone as anything that would not be constructive to the conversation. I am merely pointing out that perception is everything and as this thread went from street art to racism, perception is indeed an important context of this continued narrative and conversation.

If racism is as allegedly as prevalent as you suggest, why do so many non-White people want to live here and in the States?

I’m not trying twisting your argument, Chris. I’m trying to find out why you think this art is “angry and threatening”. I’ve posited some thoughts in my quest to understand your feelings about this piece of art. You may feel this unfair, as is your prerogative. Although I don’t think I’ve added any words into your post? Unless the system has somehow let me edit them?

As for:

To respond with one of your own retorts:

As I mentioned in my above post… The characters are in his house style. So a comparison to his other work is necessary in order to understand the context in case you feel that the teeth or eyes or head shapes are “angry and threatening”… As all of his drawings share these characteristics.

So I am looking for the differentiators in this particular work.

1. Signage and slogan
2. Density of characters
3. Erm… Something else.

I had assumed you would be familiar with the nature Nathan’s work which has been popping up all over the place in the past couple of years (as well as long before). But I note on your bio you moved out of the area in 2018 so I can appreciate you may be somewhat out of touch with things in SE23.

On another note opposite the end of Westbourne Drive.

img_1392_4032_30244032×3024 1.47 MB

Just a wild guess: Perhaps because they were born there and it’s their home?

Lame. People who want to come and live here obviously weren’t born here.

Negativity is inevitable when a) divisive images are daubed on billboards and b) people are allowed to freely express their opinions. Some will like those images, some won’t. And that’s fine.

What’s not fine is the suggestion that those who doesn’t like this graffiti/art are “racist”

Artists don’t get a free pass and an exemption from any criticism merely by virtue of including a black person in their imagery.

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The image is promoting understanding and unity.

It’s a simple enough plea “I am a man”. Where is the threat?

That’s not what you did.

You (wrongly) implied the root cause of my feelings, rather than seeking to understand.

If you want to have a civil conversation, don’t make straw man arguments. Don’t put words in people’s mouths.

Stop making things personal. Play the ball, not the man.

My dear fellow, I am doing my best to remain civil and have asked you repeatedly what it is you specifically find “angry and threatening” in the art work but you keep shirking the question.

Anyway, I shall leave you with your rather negative perspective of this artwork as it seems you have made your mind up.

Have a nice day! Wherever in the country you are these days xx

I owe you no justification for how I feel about an image.

You’ve got your opinion, I’ve got mine.

Let’s express those opinions here without attacking or hounding those who have different opinions.

Bye xx

Well rather a lot are British born and raised…

Belatedly saw @featherbelly made the same point. But in response to your response, there could be millions of reasons people want to live here despite the racism, doesn’t mean we shouldn’t try to prevent racism - should it?

The more I think about it the more I’m taken aback by your reductionistic comment. Of course racism can exist whilst non white people want to live here. The tone of some comments on this forum are slipping from people expressing different views on race and discrinination, to simply being racist. Suggesting that racism isn’t prevalent because non white people live here is the latter.

Racism exists in many countries. It is not uniquely British or American.

How does this affect choices? If you have some stats on the percentage of black immigration in to the UK, the USA and comparable countries that could be useful.

I’ve put a timeout on this thread because it’s the weekend. Let’s enjoy it, go for a walk around the neighbourhood, look at all the lovely gardens, come back nice and refreshed on Monday. I’m not sure if there’s that much more to say on this topic but we’re not shutting it down completely.

See the feedback section on moderation if you have any concerns - thanks.

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Article from the latest Forest Hill Society newsletter relating to this piece of art that has now been covered over with advertising.

Thanks to @LeeHC and @ForestHull whose posts above helped to inspire me to write the article to remember this art work after it has gone.

Great article, enlightening as well - thank you for sharing.

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