Night Trains

I was on Overground this morning chatting to another member of the Forest Hill Society transport committee, and showing him this site, when I realised that we have a certain amount of transport knowledge on this forum. So I thought I would start a discussion on one of my long-term pet projects (the other is the Bakerloo extension).

In 2017 Overground will run all night to New Cross Gate on Friday and Saturday night.
My view is that this should be extended to Crystal Palace until 01:30 or 02:00 (and terminate at New Cross Gate after 02:00)

I’ve also been told that Thameslink will run all night through to Gatwick, which means our line will be in service all night, so why not a few night trains on the local lines?

Is there any reason not to get on with night tube for Forest Hill?

Even an extension later into the night would be great. There is barely enough time for a proper night out in town before having to scramble back for the last trains.

@Michael That is an interesting observation re the Thameslink trains. Was previously under the impression that the reason why the Overground night service terminates NXG is that Network Rail had refused permission so that there wouldn’t be any impact on their engineering work at night.

It makes me wonder whether this all resolves to a lack of communication between TfL (who oversee Overground) and DfT. Anecdotally, I understand that that they do not see eye to eye.

Thanks @Joey_H

Do you know if it is true that Thameslink will run all night?
If it is true then the issue of possession would not really apply and Network Rail would have to have other arrangements for track maintenance. If this is happening would LOROL still be required to pay track access fees, or is this all part of the red-tape of the badly privatised railway system in this country?

Night services to run on Overground as far South as New Cross Gate from December 2017:

If the recommendation from the Gibb report is taken (Southern Summer strikes 2017), the main route from London to Gatwick will be Thameslink, 24 hour running will be required and this will be achieved by rotating use between fast and slow lines so that maintenance can occur without interrupting service. This would prevent the slow lines from being used by the Overground, at least at times.

As I understand it, there always has been and always will be a nighttime service to Gatwick of some sort, whether this is Thameslink or Gatwick Express. The point raised somewhere above is that from the Thameslink route there are different ways for the train to get to East Croydon. So whenever one route is closed during the night for works, the trains just go a different way.

I can’t see how this would work for Overground as there is simply only one route to go further from New Cross Gate. The tracks are also quite close together with no platforms in the middle which I think is why they always shut all of them at the same time when any works are done.

As a further point, I think politically local London services always had it hard against the likes of trains to Brighton or the airport with central government. Which I believe is why the Mayor wants to take control over these services to drive improvements, to get people out of their cars. For the meantime though, I agree with Joey_H in that I’d be surprised to see the Overnightground extended further south, for the very reason that a few stations that most decision makers in central govt haven’t even ever heard of will not be seen as worth the hassle of what might be a massive change to how the tracks are being maintained.

An introduction to New Cross Gate would still be a big improvement over what we have now, at least for those of us not living far from the Brockley Rise corridor.

Looks like 15th December will be the start of the night service- as far as NXG anyway!

Is there any information as to how often the trains will run during the night?

I’m pretty sure there are no 24hr/night buses from NXG to Forest Hill (the 171/172 don’t run overnight correct?) so the night overground doesn’t seem to really have any positive benefit for SE23 (other than maybe shortening an uber ride home!)? But since I live near the railway line I’m personally glad there won’t be trains through the night!

There is a N171 I think

There is and it runs every half hour. Maybe this could be increased to every 15 minutes on Friday and Saturday nights if people start using it more? TfL have done a review of night buses after the start of night tube so maybe they will do the same along the Overground route.
Obviously the N171 is only of use for people in Brockley and Honor Oak Park, and possibly few parts of the Forest Hill catchment area.

Isn’t the N171 stopping at London road by the station?

night trains are the least of our worries with the constant delays and cancellations during peak times.

No, it goes the same way as the 171 to Catford and then on to Hither Green.

Have we strayed into Mornington Crescent territory perchance ?

This is quite interesting to know it went so close to the wire- it has been widely advertised so makes me wonder what would have happened if it had gone the other way?