Southwark Council are consulting on developing the Old Nursery on Honor Oak Park:
https://consultations.southwark.gov.uk/environment-leisure/camberwell-new-cemetery-consultation/consult_view
So yet more burial space on the cards. How much more do they need? I can think of a number of uses that would be much more beneficial to the local community.
There is an aerial view here:
I guess until people stop dying, lots! I think we should try sky burials!
I think the point here is: at what point do you stop grabbing more land and re-use what is there? They previously wanted to bury in the Rec but that wasn’t popular and they have changed tack. I would contend that space, especially green space, in London should be put to use for the living in preference to yet more burial plots.
Brett, you are preaching to the converted. I agree with you. However there are a good few who dont and want somewhere to visit their loved ones. Depends on what side of the fence you sit on. Bones or houses, and easy choice for me.
The drop-in session re these plans is on today at Camberwell New Cemetery chapel.
It is worth bearing in mind that this area, along with the Rec, is Honor Oak Park. Would make a great site for a market garden IMO but regardless, unless robustly challenged, Southwark will continue to nibble away at this until there is none left. That would be a sad loss for future generations IMO.
Even if you buy the contentious idea that yet more burial space is needed, am struggling to see how public access is enhanced by this proposal. The current access from Honor Oak Park road remains the same, pedestrians, often with children, have to walk on the access road to gain entry and go through a car park to get to the Rec/Swings. There are also big drainage and biodiversity issues and no evidence has been supplied on how these are being addressed.
I can see why people would want to bury their loved ones nearby so they can visit them, as @Londondrz said, but on the whole I totally agree with @Brett.
In a space-constrained city like London the living should take priority over the dead.
Would much prefer to see a market garden, more allotments, or some public park space there.
I don’t see why a compromise cannot be made where the dead are buried there but it is used as a park with headstones around the edge of the cemetery. Lots of cemeteries clear headstones to the side after a given period of time.
Not quite sure a lush and green burial site with a monument (head stone) should be a right or a privilege. In cities such as London where space is at a premium there should be consideration given to mandatory cremations, or if burial is still a need, stacked burial policies.
Agree with council proposals0 voters
I think the space should be used to build social housing, the existing land is basically brown field site of mainly derelict concrete. there would be no loss of green space and the area could be easily connected to the recreation ground. this space should be for the living not the dead. We do not have the space in London to bury our dead in the way we do at the moment
I am in agreement with views here but from what I read in the proposal, they are saying that with these changes and the changes at the old cemetery they solve the problem. All graves are now ‘leased’ so can be reused rather than staying there forever more. I didn’t get the sense that the rec / playground would be touched in the future.
@fran am sorry but I do not share your optimistic view. Southwark cannot actually reuse any grave space at this site until they get an amendment to the law to allow this (that will need Lords time) so any “reuse” plan is dependent on this. A bit cart before horse. It would also cease to be a local resource for people to be buried in if this happens, rather a lease scheme for best profit London-wide. Very much a test case for what happens to burial sites across London.
The Rec is very much in the frame still as it has not been saved forever. Bear in mind also that they are planning to clear woodland on One Tree Hill too. Once they have used all of the non-Rec land they will have nowhere else locally to go. The council have promised to preserve the Rec before and reneged on this anyway.
I am keen to ensure the rec stays the rec as i use it pretty much every day. But i am always surprised how quiet it is and indeed i met a grandma at the swings the other day who had lived in HOP for 25 years and didn’t even know it was there. I wonder whether there is local interest to try to convince southwark to do something more with the space or indeed create a friends of HOP rec to breathe a bit more life into it. Would love to see the area with the tunnel cleaned up and used more.
And i say this because it will be harder for southwark to turn it into graves if it is heavily used.
I find this incredibly frustrating. I feel like there are far too many cemeteries around here already. Sorry to play the millennial card, but this feels like one last jab from the baby boomers!
Live and let live?!
Beautiful old trees that form the character of our area, and provide vital ecological and environmental benefits. To be replaced with graves?
http://www.savesouthwarkwoods.org.uk/khan-agrees-mass-tree-felling/4592985797
It is quite right to focus now on the person in the job, but for balance it is worth noting that the previous mayor, who commissioned reports that highlighted the environmental and economic benefits of trees for London, was equally nonchalant about these proposals. All mouth and no trousers - plus ça change.
The City Hall perspective seems to be that this is a local issue. A local issue all over London!
The land is designated Metropolitan Open Land which pretty much has the same protection as Green Belt. Some uses are allowed in MOL including cemeteries.
I am not aware of anyone attempting to promote the space as an Asset of Community Value which would make it immune from any form of development except for its existing lawful use.
As I understand it Asset of Community Value would only prevent the sale of the land to another organisation. It wouldn’t prevent a change of use.
29 September 2016 We are waiting for word from the Church of England giving Southwark Council permission to finish work on Part 2 of Cemetery Works - digging up Area Z in Camberwell Old Cemetery and Part 3, cutting down dozens of trees in Camberwell New Cemetery on One Tree Hill. It should be any day now and our guess is they will allow them to continue.
Last year, Friends of Camberwell Cemeteries applied to the Council to be an Asset of Community Value for the 10 plus acres of woods Southwark Council is cutting down in Camberwell Old Cemetery (off Woodvale and Underhill Roads). It was rejected by the Council. We were a bit naive then!
Right now dozens of trees on the side of One Tree Hill are earmarked for graves on the 1 to 5 slope. ( How many older people are going to be slipping in the muddy hillside when trying to see their loved ones?) All for only 140 graves in a borough of 300,000 residents. The trees are not in nature reserve but they are still on that hill and make up the wooded area. Please ask the Friends of One Tree Hill to speak out.
And the Old Nursery site (Part 4 of the works) has fewer trees and would make a suitable sports pitch. It is steps away from Honor Oak Park Train station - maybe Lewisham Council can buy it and keep it grave free? We are waiting on Southwark Council to hold a meeting regarding the site.
Sign our petition to preserve the graves and nature (and sports fields and allotment) of the cemetery. https://you.38degrees.org.uk/petitions/save-southwark-woods
Our website http://www.savesouthwarkwoods.org.uk
(not just saving the woods but the sports grounds, graves, allotments and the heritage, too)
It didn’t solve the problem, it just moved it. “Re-use” means cutting down trees in the Old Cemetery, digging up or mounding over graves, removing the history and the heritage and the beauty of the old graves, and stopping the land from returning to nature. We want Southwark Council to preserve the playing fields, allotments, graves and woods forever.
The results are in:
76% of locals who responded are firmly against the proposals. Will Southwark Council listen?
As a result, the council are proposing some alternatives:
Any of these seem reasonable?
I think that is the response to the previous consultation that resulted in the current proposals.
ETA: but some better ideas in there that could be revisited.
It’s all a bit unclear from their website, but I followed the link from this page:
https://consultations.southwark.gov.uk/environment-leisure/camberwell-new-cemetery-consultation
I think the changes are tweaks to the PDF I linked in my last comment
Yes you are probably right (ETA, indeed you are as I see from your cross post). The report is dated August 2016 so it is prior to the latest consultation results. The woodland burial option seems the best option though not necessarily the best for the site in my view (the existing concrete could be re-purposed for a community use and the grassland extended). Would make a lot of sense for the rest of Camberwell Cemeteries!
The reason why they build more graves is simply that they can sell about £1k per grave – which is a nice easy way to raise money.
If only it were as simple as that. The reason why they need more space for this is that the council have opted to provide all burial for residents within the borough (even though only a minority choose this), and, as the law stands, they cannot reuse any of the space in the Camberwell Cemeteries as they are specifically excluded from the legislation which would have allowed that. Yet, still they pursue a strategy which relies on future re-use, but now London-wide for private burial. Meanwhile, the upshot is we lose woodland and, in this specific case, green space that was earmarked for community use. Once it’s gone, it’s gone, and all for short term gain it seems.
We, Save Southwark Woods (Now Friends of Camberwell Cemeteries) proposed making the 10 plus acres of woods and old graves in Camberwell Old Cemetery an “Asset of Community Value”. As it is the Council who decides whether a place or thing is an AOCV, they rejected our application. It is the same with Tree Protection Orders - it is up the Council to make those orders, and they can change them at their whim, as they did in the Old Cemetery. I believe this to be correct.
SHORT NOTICE
If you do not want trees on One Tree Hill cut down for burial, or the Nursery site wasted on burial, we are MEETING at 2pm tomorrow Sunday 9th October
Main Entrance on on Brenchley Gardens.
Camberwell New Cemetery Gates Brenchley Gardens, SE23 3RD
We will walk to the woods on One Tree Hill and then down to the Nursery site.
https://www.facebook.com/events/358358967832146/
This is urgent.
Hey @LewisSchaffer, how did the meeting go this afternoon? Is there anything we can do to help?
As a possibly relevant note: older trees capture carbon at a higher rate than young trees:
That, is a fascinating find @anon5422159, thanks. We need to temper this with native deciduous trees which probably do not capture anything during the winter. Very valuable for the ecosystem though.
It is also worth noting, as this is a particular local problem, that trees help absorb NOx and particulates (grassland helps too):
You would think the council would promote a “natural” burial where the deceased is in a biodegradable casket which form the nutritional system for a tree planted on top of it. Seems like a win/win to me. Obviously the amount of people dying does take up space so not going to be a do all and end all.
“Have your say on my plans”
Yes saw that. AFAICT, the plans only involve cutting emissions. An important step but no mention of trees or greenery - am I missing something?
He needs to be reminded of his pledge to plant 2M trees. He’s not planted a single one so far, AFAIK, and has not done anything to protect our Honor Oak trees.
To be fair, he’s been Mayor since May. You plant trees in late autumn, early winter. Plus I think you’d need at least a year’s led time to identify sites and appropriate species, and to appoint contractors.
Agreed, the lack of any new trees to point to is not significant at this stage so long as there is a plan to plant them. More relevant to this thread is the observation that planting a new tree does not offset the loss of a mature one, whether with regards to air quality, ecosystem, social value or economic cost. We are set to lose loads with only relatively few planted.
There is a further consultation period for the revised proposals. There is a drop in event tomorrow (19th Oct) about this at the Brenchley Gardens Community Hall, (145a Brenchley Gardens, SE23 3RF) and this consultation period only runs until 31st October anyway:
https://consultations.southwark.gov.uk/environment-leisure/camberwell-new-cemetery-consultation/
I understand that Southwark Council are reviewing their burial strategy in the new year. Oddly, this has no bearing on this particular area as they will make a decision on this before that review starts. Also, am not sure whether this impacts on any more of the planned imminent tree removal, e.g. on One Tree Hill - the council are not really clear on any of this.
Went earlier to this consultation. Once again, no councillors were present, so no opportunity to actually get any answers really. In response to ‘why are they proceeding with this plan for area B before the burial strategy review in the new year has even started?’, the poor council employee could only reply with: they have to get on with the old strategy before any new strategy is decided.
There was representative present from the Camberwell Cemeteries Working Group. She was blissfully unaware that there was anything other than hard-standing to preserve in area B. Have to say, that from the council presentation you could be easily hoodwinked into thinking this but if she thought that, then am sure others who do not attend meetings with the council about this might get the same impression.
Deadline is 31st October to respond to this. Even though 76% of residents surveyed objected to any burial in this area, Southwark council are still only pushing burial options:
http://savesouthwarkwoods.org.uk/old-nursery-site-have-your-say/4593110075
It gets worse.
Southwark Council now plan to completely ignore the consultation, and choose Option 2 - the bleakest, most sterile use of the land - in order to satisfy the wishes of funeral companies.
They’re applying for planning permission.
And, sadly, planning permission is a tick box exercise. They are appellant and planning authority!
Tuesday, December 20th at 7pm will be the last meeting of 2016 of Friends of Camberwell Cemeteries and the Save Southwark Woods Campaign. Meet a the Herne Tavern, 2 Forest Hill Road SE22 0RR.
This is your green space. Fight for it.
anybody thought of building some flats for local people. not privately owned for profit. council owned for youg adults who can’t afford to live in HOP at the moment.
A post was split to a new topic: Diocese of Southwark Approves Deforestation of One Tree Hill for Graves
A post was merged into an existing topic: Diocese of Southwark Approves Deforestation of One Tree Hill for Graves
Just in: old nursery area consultation has started:
http://planbuild.southwark.gov.uk:8190/online-applications/applicationDetails.do?activeTab=summary&keyVal=_STHWR_DCAPR_9571538
Yet more burial and the most sterile type of it. 47 documents to wade through and consultation only until 5th April 2017.
They were never going to make it easy.
Well true but they are not making it easy on themselves either. One of the documents is the consultation report from last year. The executive summary still makes good reading:
The majority of respondents oppose the use of Area B for burial and instead would prefer the site to be developed into a green open space for community use. As a result, few respondents commented on specific elements of the layout.
Many respondents used this consultation as an opportunity to comment of the overarching Cemetery Strategy.
Many respondents are concerned about the sustainability of inner city burial and the possibility of the council extending Camberwell New Cemetery into other local green spaces. Some are also concerned about the Cemetery Strategy’s recommendation for re-use, either because of religious reasons or out of respect for the dead.There is some support for new footpaths as well as upgrades to existing footpaths and the car park. Some respondents would like a new footpath in Area B to link up to Honor Oak Park to provide an additional pedestrian access route through the area.
A small number of respondents suggested that burial could be provided in Area B in ways which would allow Area B to develop into a natural green space that could also be used by the community. Smaller unobtrusive monuments and a more relaxed approach to managing grasses and plants in this area could be employed to create a meadow burial space. This option could be explored as a way to balance the needs of the borough with the views of local residents.
There is a strong desire for Area B to be developed into some form of green natural open space.
The council should engage a broader group of residents about its Cemetery Strategy and the implications of the strategy.
It would seem that only the access path part of this has been taken forward. The engagement part certainly hasn’t. The meadow option is also recommended by the bat survey report - but this isn’t the proposed option even though that would be some compromise at least.
Helpful Southwark Council just came back at us with hundreds of megabytes of PDFs.
http://www.southwark.gov.uk/parks-and-open-spaces/improvement-projects/the-future-of-our-cemeteries
Anyone got a spare weekend to read how they’re justifying chopping down one of London’s precious remaining woods?
Deadline is midnight 3rd April. Please everyone, object to yet more sterile burial spaces, we are already surrounded by them in Honor Oak.
The old Nursery area was promised for community use, then re-allocated for burial supposedly to protect the Rec but that is now also threatened, and we should remind Southwark council of this:
http://www.savesouthwarkwoods.org.uk/area-b/4592585837
Hello SE23.life friends,
URGENT But quick and easy: FINAL weekend to object to THREE MORE ACRES of Honor Oak inner city nature space being taken for burial plots. Deadline is midnight on Monday 3rd.
All info and link to planning register comment form:
Southwark is deliberately ignoring their own public consultation from July 2016, when 86% of 454 people said ‘dislike it all’ and called for no burial here, as Chris has posted above from the consultation report.
Please object now on Southwark’s planning register form before Monday midnight - it’s quick and easy and we need as many as possible to show how much we value our inner city nature space.
Thank you to everyone who has already objected - it is really appreciated.
Best wishes,
Blanche
Area B nature space in the Honor Oak Nature Corridor:
Southwark to do this to it, just like the other acres they stole from the Rec Ground/playing fields:
Blanche Cameron
Chair, Friends of Camberwell Cemeteries
The Save Southwark Woods Campaign
07731 304 966
savesouthwarkwoods@gmail.com
@southwarkwoods
Facebook: Friends of Camberwell Cemeteries - Save Southwark Woods
Thanks for sharing, @BlancheCameron 
I have added my $0.02 and urge others to do the same. It takes only seconds yet can make all the difference. There are 140 comments and a quick spot check revealed a 100% objection rate amongst them.
However, given Southwark Council’s dreadful reputation for listening to the public we need even more comments. Let’s apply irrefutable pressure on them and prevent another scandal of the kind we’re currently seeing in the Glade area.
Thanks Chris absolutely
The Southwark council website doesnt like my iphone or work pc… Is there something amiss?
It doesn’t look like the website can handle more than 148 comments as that number didn’t go up after making my own submission last night. @Jerry I also found it a bit tricky - it refreshed itself when I was half way through so had to start again.
Also pretty sure I saw a sparrowhawk perched on a tree overlooking the area, yesterday around midday. From the station platform where I was standing, it was too far away to get a shot on my camera phone sadly. Would make sense as there will be lots of prey around the meadow. Also occurs to me that the presence of a top predator is a strong indication of a local ecosystem in good health. For now.
Yes Southwark don’t update all the objections until after the consultation period to discourage people from knowing how many have objected. With Area Z and D1 it was showing 300+ until after the period when the total came to over 600 on each application. We won’t get as many for Area B but it will be more than 148!
A sparrowhawk would be amazing and also entirely possible for this area - as you say, and a good sign of a well functioning ecoystem. Let us know if you have any more sightings.
I’ll post results of the consultation in the next few days.
Cheers,
Blnache
Added my objection to the list…
I would like to know if all signatories to the objection to the cemetery being expanded have chosen cremation as their final wish. If not then where do you expect to be Buried? If you want a burial plot it has to go somewhere there were 529,655 deaths registered in 2015 simply work out how much land it takes to bury those people.
For those that accept London’s population marching towards 10M, they must make tough choices with our precious remaining open space.
Houses for the living or graves for the dead.
Personally I think the living should always take precedence over the dead.
I certainly have a wish to be cremated but am also on the look out for a greener alternative. I also wish for my remains to be scattered outside of the city area as have no intention of taking up space when I am dead. I realise this might not suit everyone but it is as well to get into the mindset that you can’t expect your remains to sit in an urban location, IMHO.
I certainly have although once I am dead I wont particularly care what happens.
To be honest I have been to a lot of funerals over the last 10 years and every one of them was a cremation. I think the rate for burial is about 25% but can’t do to much digging (excuse the obvious pun) as I am at work.
I believe Tower Hamlets and Hackney have actually stopped offering a burial service in the boroughs…
Frankly I see no reason why councils should continue to provide land for burials in consideration of other imho more important demands for land including recreational use and housing.
If for religious reasons then that religious organisation can buy land commercially. If solely for preference well then once there were private cemetaries. There could be again.
Agreed. In fact, AIUI, they have no statutory obligation to do so within the borough. This audit report makes for interesting reading and it is also striking that the only borough not to respond with sufficient info re capacity was Southwark:
https://www.london.gov.uk/file/5284/download?token=sLOljOSB
Southwark and all of London needs MORE natural, wild places for health, wellbeing and kids to play - not less. Say “NO NEW BURIAL” in the Honor Oak Nature Corridor
Dear Friends,
URGENT - Please object to development in the Honor Oak Nature Corridor
Deadline Midnight April 3rd
Southwark has applied to take 3 more acres of Honor Oak Nature Corridor next to Honor Oak Park Station for 1,022 sterile burial plots.
The Old Nursery site (Area B) is Metropolitan Open Land in a Grade II SINC. It is home to hedgehogs, owls, bats, reptiles, butterflies, bees and many other rare and common species.
Southwark wants rows of sterile burial plots like on all the land they took from Honor Oak Recreation Ground in 2000 and 2010. For just a few year of burial. When will it stop?
In the 2016 consultation, 86% of residents opposed all burial on the site. Nature land is far too valuable for burial plots.
Please object here. Please also send us and Cllr Ian Wingfield a copy of your objection if you can:
ian.wingfield@southwark.gov.uk
savesouthwarkwoods@gmail.com
Below are some reasons for objecting you might want to include, also here:
Area B should be declared a Nature Reserve as part of the Honor Oak Nature Corridor because:
Thanks again for all your support - we couldn’t do it without you.
Blanche Cameron
Chair, Friends of Camberwell Cemeteries
The Save Southwark Woods Campaign
07731 304 966
savesouthwarkwoods@gmail.com
www.savesouthwarkwoods.org.uk
@southwarkwoods
Thinking about this topic just makes me sad. When will we find out the final decision?
Southwark has just informed us it is going to Planning Committee on Thursday June 15th . That’ll be three more acres of the Honor Oak Nature Corridor taken for 1000+ burial plots and mown lawn.
Very few people have actually seen Area B recently as it’s behind hoardings. See the link and photo attached from yesterdays visit.
86% in Southwark’s own consultation said they don’t want burial on here and, of the burial options, most wanted woodland or meadow burial. They are not even offering that.
Thanks for the update, @LewisSchaffer. Is there anything we can do at this stage to help protect the land?
Back in the day we’d chain ourselves to the trees.
Yes, Chris. You should go to the Planning Committee meeting - a week Thursday at 7PM. Meet 6:30 in front of Southwark’s Tooley Street offices. You can contact everyone you know on social media, (or even pick up the phone!) and tell them that Nature Corridor land is being lost. You can ask your local politicians which side they are on on this. You can sign the petition, all information is on the website http://www.savesouthwarkwoods.org.uk. You can come to our Tuesday meetings at the Herne on Forest Hill Road in East Dulwich. There is so much you can do but anything, everything, will help.
Lewis
07886504221
Thanks for the useful information, Lewis.
Tonight’s hustings will be a great opportunity to do this. Are you able to make it?
Sorry. Missed it last night. Forgot until I saw your message. We are trying to put out fires all over the cemeteries - in the area by the train station, on the side of One Tree Hill, in the 10 plus acreas of woods in the Old Cemetery. Plus, now Brent has applied for permission to remove memorials. This is spreading, as we anticipated. There is the planning committee meeting next Thursday which people in SE23 should come to.
Hidden by Southwark behind hoardings is a beautiful place that is being destroyed.
Meet 6.30pm Thursday 15th June
outside Southwark Council
160 Tooley Street London SE1 2QH
7.00pm Planning Committee
Tell Southwark Council that 1,000 burial plots on the Honor Oak Nature Corridor land is a destructive waste of inner London open green space.
You can speak at the planning meeting - get in touch:
savesouthwarkwoods@gmail.com
Tomorrow, Thursday 15 June 2017 6:30 PM we will be at the Southwark Planning Meeting.They are ‘deciding’ the fate of the Old Nursery Site, next to the Honor Oak Park station on the Honor Oak Nature Corridor. We are fighting for our greenspace and sports fields.
And please do not think the rest of the Rec is safe. Or the Allotments. Or any other part of either of cemeteries from development of new burial plots.
Posted by someone we believe to be a Lewisham politician: “As I have already stated the rec was always designated for burial till such time it was required. If you want green space you’ll see SE22/SE23 are spoilt for the amount we have in comparison to other parts of inner London.”
THIS IS OUR FRONT GARDEN - WE MUST FIGHT FOR IT.
Southwark has put up massive hoardings so you can’t go in, let alone look at it. You will have to take my word, and the photographs. It is beautiful and needs to be saved.
Meet outside Southwark Council
160 Tooley Street London SE1 2QH
Thursday, 15 June 6:30PM.
http://www.savesouthwarkwoods.org.uk/object-to-area-b-development/4593742804
and aerial footage from last year, after they strimmed it, and this year.
Who is the ‘we’ that you are speaking for?
I think it is rather unlikely that the person on the other forum who you have insinuated must be a local politician, grave-digger, undertaker, or does not live locally is actually any of these. I suspect he/she is just a normal person who disagrees with you (and has disagreed with me on other topics). Do you have any evidence to the contrary - other than the fact that they do not hold the same opinion as you?
As the moderators of this forum would put it “Discuss the points not the people making them. No ad-hominems”
I agree Michael. I also think it very unlikely that a Lewisham politician would wade into a Southwark borough plan in this way. So far have had difficulty getting any of these to actually engage with the issue.
Why would a Lewisham resident want to lose sports fields and have local woods cut down for burial plots which are for Southwark residents? The motives behind opinions are valuable.
The Rec ground is not safe. And until we hear otherwise, Brockley and Ladywell Cemeteries are not safe.
Don’t know but there is no value in second guessing this. Your previous post highlights the issue re loss of green space and amenity and I will try and attend the meeting and push for these to be considered as well as the apparent dismissal of consultation results. These are way more relevant than an individual point of view anyway.
Agreed.
I do not agree with this and to suggest so diminishes the campaign re Camberwell cemeteries IMHO.
Perhaps it’s conceivable that someone has very personal reasons for wanting local burial and the opportunity to tend the grave of a loved one, reasons they may not want to go into on a public forum?
I’m not suggesting that the wants of one person outweigh all other arguments, just that there are reasons to support local burial provision beyond being a local authority stooge.
Rachael
We are talking about a Lewisham resident who supports using the Rec for graves - denying children a place for sport. I can understand a Southwark resident who wants to be buried locallyto support burial in the Borough but what is the motive of someone who lives in Lewisham to see local amenities destroyed?
That is what I asked
Brett, I hope you are right and Lewisham doesnt have eyes on its cemeteries. We thought the Rec was saved and now we are discovering it is still at risk.
http://www.savesouthwarkwoods.org.uk/object-to-area-b-development/4593742804
6.30pm Thursday 15th June
outside Southwark Council
160 Tooley Street London SE1 2QH
7.00pm Planning Committee
I think it is reasonable to see this as a test case and am sure other boroughs are watching this closely. I do not think that Lewisham is as short of burial space as some others, so until they face this issue, and it is not certain that they ever will (they could follow Hackney and bury out of borough for instance), Brockley and Ladywell should be ok.
Michael,
I am sorry if it seemed I was making a personal attack but I feel that is important to know if a poster has a vested interest in what they are posting about. And anonymity breeds the kind of acrimony we see on the EDF.
But making assumptions about someone’s motives also breeds acrimony. Personally, if I am suspicious of someone’s motivations, I stop engaging with them. It’s the best way to preserve your own integrity in a situation where you can’t prove anything.
I am in ignorance here about burial and local residence: if I live in Lewisham and die in Lewisham, do I have to be buried in Lewisham?
Not just a personal attack but a unwarranted assumption about another poster when they decline to provide personal details, which you then turn into a political accusation against a completely different target, without any basis other than your own imagination - prefixed by a ‘we believe’ to make it sound like it is more than just your personal attack on somebody.
Perhaps it’s just another cunning stunt.
Good luck with your campaign this evening.
Agreed.
No, there is no statutory duty on the local council to do so. In the case of Southwark, they have taken a political stance, so that residents can be expected to be buried in borough (even though they have been running out of space for decades). Well mostly, as in practice this really only applies to Christians and some Turkish Muslims IIRC. Am sure @LewisSchaffer can correct me on this last point.
You don’t have to be buried in Lewisham. You could buy a plot in Southwark but it cost maybe three times the amount Southwark residents pay. I am sure Southwark Council would love that. A case has been made that is why Southwark is fighting to keep burial going - to make money selling plots to people out of the Borough.
Ah, okay. I just wondered why it seemed odd that a Lewisham resident supported a Southwark proposal.
In any case. With my mod hat on (the clue is in the yellow on this post), I don’t think it’s productive to keep making references here to a disagreement on another board. Can contributors here try to stick the facts as we know them?
What people do not seem to understand is there is only so much land and if statistics are to be trusted then Lewishsm borough will have spprox 1500 burials in sny given year.
So the clever amongst our readers will determine the area of land these burials will require. So the 1000 plots achieved by the proposed site could last less thsn a year? Then what do we keep appropriating land willy nilly, I understand the plots can be re-used after 75 years, not sure if this is fact?
In other countries cremation is the norm and growing simply because of the land required to bury the dead.
So those people thst want to visit a ‘local’ grave should be charged a hefty sum.
The proposed site is in Southwark so the number of burials in Lewisham is not relevant to this case. In principle, this could happen anywhere though, so I agree we shouldn’t regard the cemetery land as limitless. Most of these cemeteries exist because the Victorians opted to bury outside the city to avoid these issues. Problem is, the city has grown around them.
There is an act, which applies London-wide, and allows for re-use of private graves after 75 years. This does not apply to Nunhead or Camberwell Cemeteries though (this is a legislative quirk but is recognised by the Council themselves). I personally wish that they could manage the burial they have and apply to amend the act so that they can re-use. As they are doing none of these things, the strategy is not sustainable and the Rec will get used eventually. The current plans for area B strongly indicate the direction of travel with a path that leads in the direction of the tennis courts.
Well forgive me but it would seem thst Southwark due to its poorer population has lower life expectancies and whilst I cannot find the exact figures extrapolating the population details it would seem similar numbers of burials will occur.
So independant of where you reside the need for more land to turn into buriial plots for 75 years or more will grow. Just saying an area is designated solves todays problem but what about the future? A good dose of common sense is required.
Yes which was sadly lacking at the planning committee. Objectors were not allowed to mention burial strategy as this wasn’t what was being decided. Applicants (also Council) talked about little else. They have approved the works with few conditions to speak of and none that I know of from their own design and access statement which was consulted on. A bit of a stitch up really.
Thank you for your tireless campaigning to protect our green space, @LewisSchaffer, @Brett and others. You fought to represent the near-unanimous will of local people.
The support for defending green space vs. housing and graves was evidenced in Southwark council’s own consultations. To their great shame, the council ignored those consultations. If residents vote on principle in the next local election, those councillors will lose their seats. Of all the checks and balances, this is the only one we have left.
Green space is one of the key things that makes our area distinct. Once trees, meadows and fields are gone from London, they’re gone forever. Sadly residents need to fight to protect them, because our current councils won’t.
Thank you. It is a shame but we are fighting on.
How can we stop the destruction of our greenspaces and heritage in the area?
We have been told that diggers are moving into land next to the Honor Oak Park station. People know about the Network Rail site- but this is larger and just a couple of metres away - hidden behind hoardings. When they come for the allotments or the Rec it may too late to organise the fight.
Sorry if I seem like I am screaming but I am.
Southwarks says they are doing this to provide local burial for local people - but they are not providing burial for most of the Muslim faiths. They say they can and do but this not true. http://www.savesouthwarkwoods.org.uk/council-ignores-discrimination/4593814916
We will be at the New Cemetery Gates (Brenchley Gardens) at 2PM Sunday 25th June.
Everyone is welcome even though this event has been called for familes who have loved ones buried in the cemetery and are concerned (rightfully) that the graves will be dug up and reused. Please join us.
Southwark is destroying and selling off this valuable land one grave, one tree, one sports field, at a time.
Photo is of a tree on the side of One Tree Hill - taken in 2015. It is now a log.
Can’t make this up:
Yesterday, Southwark honoured victims of a 1944 Nazi rocket attack with a ceremony and a plaque.
Meanwhile Southwark rushes through plans to destroy memorials and graves of war victims, possibly those very people, to sell off their burial plots.
Families and friends are meeting tomorrow, Sunday at 2pm at the main gate on Brenchley Gardens to demand Southwark respect the dead and stop their burial projects.
http://savesouthwarkwoods.org.uk/grave-robbery-for-profit/4593921824
Lewis
Hi Rachel, no you don’t, unless rules have changed.
My mum lived in Lambeth but she was cremated & ashes placed with my dads in Brenchley Gardens cemetery.
Postponed: Families and Friends Grave Protest, Sunday 25th June
We apologise for the short notice but we have decided to postpone today’s Family and Friends protest. Southwark Council told us 48 hours ago they are holding their annual families memorial service the same day and asked us to cancel.
It’s a shame as we have been organising our event for everyone with friends and relatives buried in the cemeteries for almost two months.
The purpose was to ask Southwark to stop mounding over thousands of graves, next digging up thousands of graves for resale, destroying gravestones and memorials.
We decided to cancel out of sensitivity to families attending Southwark’s event.
Southwark erected a plaque on Peckham Rye on Friday, 23 June 2017, to honour 24 victims killed by a German V-1 rocket. At least five of these civilian casualties are buried on the side of One Tree Hill and are due have their graves dug up and their memorials destroyed. Looking for the right word. Cynical, chutzpah, cheek, hypocrisy…?
http://www.savesouthwarkwoods.org.uk/plaque-for-ww2-victims/4593931864
If that is so, it sounds like just the kind of news the Mail would lap up. Give them a call?
That is so true, and definitely worth considering, @LewisSchaffer.
Yes, we are reaching out to everyone, everywhere, to save our green spaces.
Here is a new rough cut video : The beautiful & doomed Camberwell Old Cemetery, E Dulwich.
It is only doomed if we do nothing.
Lewis
07886504221
And the destruction goes on. 40 more trees are being cut down, this time in Square 38 in Cambewell New Cemetery, Help!
Latest photos from the side of One Tree Hill, Camberwell New Cemetery, Honor Oak. Taken this week.
The top photo: Logs given to the Nature Reserve.
The trench in the second photo leads to Area D2, which is next to be scraped clean of nature.
Third photo: Dozens of trees cut down and undergrowth scraped clean in The Glade, looking toward Canary Wharf for only 124 burial spots.
So sad, but thanks @LewisSchaffer, for sharing and keeping us informed.
Sorry I havent posted lately. We were in Edinburgh for the festival and then I forgot your password!
The situation is very sad. On the plus side we now have some good images to use. Now we can show tree stumps amongst memorials, of memorials toppled on the hillside in the New Cemetery, views of the acres lost in Camberwell Old Cemetery wood from the air. Before all this we asking people to imagine the devastation.
And we made the front page of Southwark News this week.
Thank you very much for your support.
L
Stop tree cutting and digging up the dead in Camberwell Cemetery /// “Schaffer is disconcertingly terrific.” Bruce Dessau, Evening Standard /// Follow me on twitter /// Go to my website /// Listen to Nunhead American Radio with Lewis Schaffer on ResonanceFM /// See Lewis Schaffer,on Tour /// Have your UK and USA taxes prepared by BritishAmericanTax.com, I do. /// Have your website designed by DesignMutt.com, I did. ///
Cemetery: http://savesouthwarkwoods.org.uk/
My Website: http://www.lewisschaffer.co.uk/
My Twitter: https://twitter.com/LewisSchaffer
As I have stated previously only by people stopping the process of burying their dead will the stupid process of using good land for graves.
Perhaps the purchase of a burial site should be priced to reflect that for 70-100 years it will be occupied and unuseable for housing, recreation or wildlife.
In the past I have helped a friend who managed a couple of cemeteries cutting grass etc. I would estimate over 80% were abandoned and unkempt never receiving a visit from the caring relatives that put thrm there.
Wynell
How people deal with the death of family member is a very complex issue.
You are right. If a family had to purchase land (or rent land for a hundred years) in our area it would cost many times the amount they are having to pay Southwark Council to be buried in Camberwell New and Old Cemeteries. Continued burial in these cemeteries involves destruction of inner London nature, graves and memorials, not to mention the loss of the amenity value of the Rec Ground and potentially the Allotments.
Keep an eye on what Lewisham is doing in their cemeteries. They are quiet on this issue.
Both my parents are in the Brenchley Gardens crematorium together & they have a rose bush that my mum bought from the above for my dad & I have continued to pay for since she died. I renew the subscription of just over £200 every 5 years. The money goes towards the upkeep of the rose & also the surrounding grounds, which I must say are kept beautiful & clean, so asking for a subscription from people for the cemetery is a good idea I think, as some people do live far away & cant visit regularly.
Gill
Sorry about you loss. Your rose bush is important to your family.
Photo: Camberwell New Cemetery, Brenchley Gardens last week. Memorials have been toppled and removed. They will either crushed or dumped. We haven’t been told by the Council what will happen to them. A roadway will be built above these graves on the side of One Tree Hill.
!
Do any of the people affected by this know about this devastation? It just looks as no thought for anybody has gone into this.
2018 DEMO to save 12-acre the Old Cemetery Wood, doomed. Meet at Southwark Council Offices .Wednesday 11 July 6PM, 160 Tooley St, London SE1 2QH. Fight for inner city wild places and heritage.
Already, acres in Camberwell New Cemetery cleared. Honor Oak Nature Corridor flattened for temporary burial. Dozen of trees cut down on One Tree Hill for just 140 burial plots, if that many.
Acres of Camberwell Old Cemetery wood already cleared. 10 acres to save.
Is burial the best use of our inner city land?
http://www.savesouthwarkwoods.org.uk/
Still fighting.
Works near Honor Oak Park are almost finished. They’ve tried to create a few spaces with a nature-like feel to it including a small pond, but the rest looks quite sterile for now of course.
There is a new gated entrance road which is currently also used for public access to the sports ground while the old entrance road is closed, presumably for it being refurbished.
What gives me some cause for concern is the really narrow footpath that will possibly remain the only access to the playground and football pitches once all works are finished. This is just about the width of one pushchair and a two metre high steel fence has already appeared to one side of it! I can’t see this working in practice if this is really going to be the only access, but I’ll wait until it’s finished.
Apologies, I realise that taking some photos may have been a good idea…
I noticed also that there is a new path by the side of the Rec which leads up to the the Teletubby land area. Which is probably next for burial guessing by the paths leading there.
To Lewisham Residents: Camberwell New Cemetery and Camberwell Old Cemetery are in Southwark but it used by Lewisham residents. If you want some role in what happens to our greenspace, you must take some action. Call me and we can talk about what you can do to save our world. Photo just feet from Honor Oak station, taken March 2019.
Lewis 07886504221
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