Pubs and parents

Brexit is quite a good analogy I think.

With pubs, there’s an assumption amongst parents that it’s not politically acceptable for pubs to ban children, and parents inhabit a bubble that reinforces this belief to the point where it is absolute, and anyone that disagrees is told they are simply wrong, and perhaps a bit ignorant/hostile.

But perhaps there is a silent majority of people in this country that have other priorities, and who don’t want to share the pub experience with kids. They remember a time when pubs were more focussed on adults, and when all adults could relax in them.

Yet this majority is fearful for speaking out because they’re afraid of the scorn of parents.

It takes an anonymous vote to out the truth.

In the spirit of inclusive democracy (referenda style), perhaps we should ask the kids what they want too, as opposed to speaking for them?

I suspect they’d rather spend an evening in Pizza Hut or an after-school sports club than a pub full of boring adults doing boring adult things like relaxing with alcoholic drinks, reading newspapers, enjoying adult food and having adult conversations.

Ha ha ha!

I hope this was posted in jest!

@anon5422159 @mi [quote=“chrisbeach, post:77, topic:1050, full:true”]
Brexit is quite a good analogy I think.

With pubs, there’s an assumption amongst parents that it’s not politically acceptable for pubs to ban children, and parents inhabit a bubble that reinforces this belief to the point where it is absolute, and anyone that disagrees is told they are simply wrong, and perhaps a bit ignorant/hostile.

But perhaps there is a silent majority of people in this country that have other priorities, and who don’t want to share the pub experience with kids. They remember a time when pubs were more focussed on adults, and when all adults could relax in them.

Yet this majority is fearful for speaking out because they’re afraid of the scorn of parents.

It takes an anonymous vote to out the truth.
[/quote]

Bravo! What an eloquent way of putting it.

If you’re happy for me to do so, @Michael, @comoed and @Phil, I’ll move our last five messages into a thread entitled “pubs and parents” (or whatever you’d prefer)

Chris didn’t we already have your rant about how people with children should really only be allowed to eat in pizza hut? Not sure what you are trying to achieve by having another thread on this.

Ah yes, very kind of you to remind me, @fran. That topic is here, and although it was a slightly different theme (restaurants as opposed to pubs), it may be better to move the last messages here instead of creating a new topic. Obviously these messages have little to do with Chandos, and so to be fair on Nancy and others, they ought to live elsewhere.

On the contrary, I would suggest that individuals that resort to an anonymous vote (in countries that have the freedom to democracy, of course) rather than openly discussing their beliefs, do so because they are aware that their beliefs are fundamentally at odds with the expectations and customs of the society they live in at large, and are slightly embarrassed by this.

This is my first post as a casual observer of this forum. I have found it really interesting and useful when seeking to find out what is going on in the local area and developments with new businesses etc. However, the more that I actually read the comments in the threads, the more concerned I am that the same, few individuals think that they speak for the much wider community in SE23. I wish The Chandos all the best, and look forward to visiting having been put off by the previous establishment - just because there are a handful of people on here who believe that there is a ‘gap in the market’ that they are not catering for does not mean that it won’t be a welcome addition to the area.

Rant over

You make a good point. Why would people like me be allowed to participate in an anonymous vote, when other people could just decide the outcome for me? Much simpler, and I’m sure they always know best and always have my interests at heart.

Alarmingly it occurs to me we “resort to an anonymous vote” in general elections too. Obviously it would be far better if people could be “encouraged” to vote the correct way by making sure everyone sees votes publicly. That way, we can have groups of people (from the correct side) patrolling around and making sure those who vote the wrong way feel ashamed, and don’t ever do this again.

Far better that societal customs trump the will of the people, I’d say.

Works brilliantly in Saudi Arabia.

Without wishing to go off topic, you have missed the point slightly… As I’m sure you are aware, the governance and politics of Saudi Arabia are largely dictated by the royal family.

That sounds like a very logical conclusion of your thinking, if you believe enforcement of societal customs ought to trump democracy of the masses? Monarchy is great at this.

Who are the people here who claim to speak for SE23?

I designed this to be an open forum where all can freely express their opinions even if others think they are wrong.

It would be very sad if some people were told they couldn’t participate, simply because they don’t represent a majority viewpoint.

Groupthink is an ugly thing.

Thanks for making such an entrance there @JC1 Point very well made.

I think the point @JC1 is making is while some air opinions and leave it there, others make a point of drowning out others in order to state their importance and get their own point across. Something I know I am guilty of at times.

It is a fair point, especially on certain threads. That said, this discussion is no longer about the Chandos and should not taint the work @Nancyis doing, so maybe time for a split.

I know I can be guilty of that, but I think in this conversation it is me arguing for all opinions being allowed to be aired. Whereas others on this thread and elsewhere are arguing that some opinions are invalid/shameful and should not be allowed to be aired.

To me this is a red line, and I will strenuously defend this forum as a place where all opinions are allowed to be aired.

Some day, each one of us will have an opinion that doesn’t follow the herd, and I hope we will feel comfortable and able to air it here.

Thanks for moving this into a separate thread as I agree this was distracting from the good work that is being done at The Chandos!

I think we both know that I am not advocating a Saudi Arabi type of governance. I was merely taking odds at your (probably tongue in cheek) comment that it takes an anonymous vote to out the truth. In the democracy that we live in, I would suggest that there is a reason that people use the opportunity to vote anonymously as an opportunity to vote for things that they would not be comfortable promoting in public. Much in the same way that people online say or do things that they would not necessarily say in person

I am not going to name names but it is quite clear who the main contributors to the site are. This is not a bad thing - I would just hope that new businesses are not too swayed by what might at first appear to be the wider community opinion when in reality it is coming from a very small group. I am sure they have done their market research and have a good idea of what will be successful!

I do think this forum is great for keeping up to date with local developments and generating interest in new businesses. If it wasn’t for this then I would have had no idea about the Chandos or the new greengrocer/ fishmonger that is opening up which I am also very excited about!

These threads pop up regularly on all our local forums and the result is the same. People with children want family friendly places. People without children want places without children. As far as I’m concerned it’s a pointless discussion. Businesses decide what they think is going to make them the most money, and people can choose to go wherever suits them best. If there isn’t an ideal place for your own individual preferences then it is likely because it’s not a viable business proposition in this area. New businesses will do market research and decide what’s best for them. When Mamma Dough opened, back in the Sodo days, they told me they werent pitching it at families with children and they didn’t even have high chairs. But within a month they had totally changed their tune and got highchairs, kid’s size pizzas etc. I can only imagine that they realised there was money to be made by selling pizzas to local families in an area like Honor Oak which is stack full of families. I personally find when I want a child free experience there are plenty of places for me to go, ditto when I want to take my kids out for a meal. And I’ve spent a lot of time in pubs during the day over the last year as ive been on maternity leave and to be honest most of them are pretty empty in the afternoon and I hope pleased for my custom,with or without kids.

Well said @jc1 and thank you for keeping a positive tone and not telling us what we can and cannot discuss.

You’re absolutely right that we get a small clique of people frequenting discussions here (including me). But I think the answer to that is to widen the population of the forum. Every day I work hard to do this on social media and in real life. I look forward to meeting you at one of our meetups or events, and look forward to seeing a wider participation here on the forum.

I agree with @fran and as a parent with a young child, I can see both sides. I spent a lot of time in pubs as a child (in Belfast, where it was technically illegal for me to be there) and was always there on the understanding that fundamentally a pub is a space designed for adults, with lots of glass and sharp edges, and not really designed for running around.

The Herne has taken an active decision to be a bit less child-friendly by removing their adventure playground (though I suspect this might be down to insurance considerations) and they’ve taken a lot of flak for that on the ED forum. Other places like The Honor Oak have opened and made some effort to be child-friendly (with their small area of artificial grass and playhouse - though it’s probably best that we don’t mention the dog poo there) but I’ve also seen their staff asking parents to look after their children and stop them running around (hot food, plates, glasses being carried around and toddlers not being a good mix).

I think that in an ideal world, parents would realise that child-friendly is not the same as child-centred, and should appreciate that there’s a difference between a pub and a soft play area (though Jam Circus, for example, tries to blur the boundary) and teach their kids how to behave appropriately according to the social context. That’s a valuable life skill.

I think some people have missed the point. We have pubs which are more traditional, where there is little of interest for children, but continue to serve good beer. The problem is that these aren’t the popular ones.
What some people are asking for is all the benefits of a family inclusive pub or cafe (decent food and everybody feels welcome) without the inclusion of families.

I would suggest that unless somebody can identify such a pub somewhere in this country, that such a combination is impossible to achieve. Pubs are either family friendly and popular with all, or more traditional pub and shunned by all us middle-class types on the forum. Why not just accept that there are lots of child unfriendly pubs and go to them rather than trying to change some of the best pubs in the area?

Massive conflation there, @Michael.

Are you honestly suggesting a pub needs to be child friendly in order to serve good food and be friendly to adults?

From experience I’ve observed the opposite. Pubs that cater specifically to families tend to serve cheaper, more basic food, and the staff are fed up of weaving their way around kids and therefore less able to be friendly.

Mamma dough staff always seem less stressed and more friendly when it gets to 9pm and most of the screaming babies and runaway toddlers have left the building

Agree and that’s why I like to take my children to our local places, so they can learn how to behave in an adult environment. If I only ever took them to Pizza Hut or my personal bête noir Giraffe, we perhaps would have less opportunity to impress on them what appropriate looks like. personally I love the continental approach where children in public are both adored and chastised when needed by all the local adults and there isn’t this them and us feeling, and thus children are generally less annoying

I think we’re blessed with a good choice of local places which balance the needs of different customers well and are welcoming. For me the difference is always in the management of the place.

The All Inn One / Foresters is a great example - child-friendly but well-managed so that you can have a quiet drink and read the paper undisturbed. The Blythe Hill Tavern is a brilliant place and while it doesn’t serve much food (limited to crisps and nuts, unless Van Dough are there), the place is managed so that kids can play without disturbing anyone. Donde is generally pretty good and the layout means that one side can be quieter than the other.

Again, it all comes back to parents and whether they set the tone for their kids, though.

@jc1 would you be comfortable if I split some of our posts (starting with mine, #10), into a new topic called something like “Tyranny of the masses” or “Tragedy of the commons”? I would create this topic in the “politicos” category, which is an opt-in category.

Have taken the liberty of opting you in to this category as it sounds like you might be interested in our discussions there

As a parent of a small child, I find the best time to go to the pub is after the little shits are in bed. This solves that conundrum.

Generally speaking, even when we go to child friendly places, we don’t tolerate kids running all over the place as some parents seem to do. I find it very irritating, but sometimes its friends of mine doing it, and nobody likes being told that their kids are misbehaving as it is interpreted as a direct insult.

What some people also have to remember is that unlike other parts of the country, most people in London are not natives and therefore the family support is not local. This means that parents can’t dump their kids with grandparents and aunties and uncles. Going to the pub with junior may be the only time parents get to be out of the house together!

Perhaps the solution should be that pubs have childfriendly hours (like the Capitol purports to have but doesn’t really enforce).

I really dont get what the problem is. Whenever I’ve wanted to go out (sans family) in Forest Hill for food or a drink I’ve never seen any kids running around. However, I do have kids and I do take them with me to the pub sometimes - at which time they may run around (particularly at the fantastic @AllInnOne play area) I often run around with them.

All I do is go out for a drink after 8:00.

Its not really that hard is it? Whats the problem with choosing your time/place for a drink depending on the clientele. People do it all the time (eg watching sports)

When I was a bit younger, I didnt ever go to places where families were present. It wasnt my scene and I didnt fancy drinking around kids. Why do a vocal minorty torture themselves by doing so?

Bearing in mind children and their parents have to eat - if they’re going to eat out I’d rather we all ate food that was at least moderately healthy. I suspect that most people would like to eat ice cream with every meal.

Pray tell what is ‘adult food’? I know there is age restrictions on alcoholic drinks, but did I miss a new health guideline? As for ‘adult conversations’, well its all pretty subjective.

Menus often have a “kids” section, with simpler, smaller and cheaper dishes specially catering for their tastes.

I’m sure some modern families regularly feed their kids a 10oz sirloin tartare with a truffle jus (particularly in HOP, what what ;-)), but I’m a bit old fashioned and tend to consider that to be “adult food”

Last year, we went as a family to Botany Bay. After having a lovely time on the beach, we decided to pop to a pub for some lunch. A few hundred metres down the road was a pub (the 19th Hole or something) that had a Sunday roast.

My wife, not being a native to these shores and spending far too much time in Forest Hill, decided that this place looked fine. I wasn’t sure and said that it didn’t seem that child friendly, but she insisted. Suffice to say, there was no warm welcome and a lot of tutting occured when we asked if there was a children’s menu. After a good 10 minutes, we gave in and drove off further down the road, finally stopping at an enormous pub with a parking and children’s play area where there was an enormous wait to be seated as they were fully booked.

Now, I’m not saying there isn’t a place for both businesses in this world, but one was definitely a far more profitable business than the other.

(edit: according to Google Maps, the businesses in question are indeed the 19th Hole and the busier one was Captain Digby’s)

I believe there is a correlation and I invite others to provide a counter-example to disprove this conflation and to understand exactly what it is that people are after that cannot be found in SE23. @anon5422159 do you have an example?

I still don’t understand what is wrong with Bricklayers Arms, General Napier, or Prince of Wales that doesn’t appeal to people looking for pubs where children aren’t likely to be present.

The Dartmouth Arms has either sausage and chips (with cabbage) or mini roasts on the kids menu. My daughter never has chips during the week, so usually opts for this one, but she often half-inches a load of meat or veg off our plates too. I think the Perry Vale does a similar thing (except fish goujons instead of sausages) and the Signal also has a pretty good kids menu if I recall. I can’t think of anywhere locally we’ve been too that has a turkey twizzlers and fries kind of kids menu.

Look at all the childfree people me and the baby are disturbing in the WGTs glorious garden today. We’ll be gone in an hour if you’d rather it were childfree in the meantime he’s enjoying his sweet potato burger and I’m enjoying a glass of rose.

1471347394519.jpg3264×1836 1.09 MB

[quote=“Moto_Hodder, post:32, topic:1499”]
I can’t think of anywhere locally we’ve been too that has a turkey twizzlers and fries kind of kids menu.[/quote]
There are a variety of chicken nuggets on the Capitol children’s menu but they go and spoil it with ‘a bag of fresh fruit’ with every meal.

I haven’t tried the Prince of Wales but it’s recorded as family friendly. The Nap is my local but it’s tiny, doesn’t serve food, and as far as I know doesn’t serve craft beer (happy to be corrected). Not tried the Bricklayers Arms (bit of a walk from me, and also recorded as family friendly)

In the 90s, pubs stopped being so blokey and started to introduce novelties such as clean toilets. This was after the major chains realised that men wanted to go to the pubs where women went and they didn’t really mind clean carpet and windows you could see out of after all, so eventually all pubs became more “female-friendly” (except a handful). With more people drinking at home and the introduction of a smoking ban, the whole industry has become a lot more competitive and I think “family friendly” is the new trend to make pubs more attractive to the wider clientele.

Kids under 7 eat free at Baburs delicious sunday buffet which i find is a great opportunity to introduce mine to different flavours and spices even if mostly they just eat poppadoms.

I think we are now lucky in FH that we have so much choice. I had this discussion on a forum not long back and the consensus was that while children were fine in pubs up to a certain hour, what was not fine was the fact that they are left to run around unsupervised. Not many people would like us to return to the old days when I had to stand outside the pub with a packet of crisps and a kiora (other crap orange drinks are available) but parents also have a responsibility to make sure their offspring are not annoying the rest of the clientele. I like the policy of the Dolphin which seems to be the best middle ground. There will always be a section of parents who think it is ok to let their kids run around unsupervised but it up to the pub management to lay down the policy. I vote with my feet and move on to somewhere else - as I say we are lucky enough to have a selection of other pubs to sample.

Hmmm, I’m not sure if that is that much of a middle ground. It seems to say to me that “if you must bring your kids here to this clearly adult place, please make sure they are seen and not heard”. Perhaps the practice is reasonable, but the messaging is not articulating the desire that they want parents there at all.

And WGT, again when opened told me it was adult focused and would tolerate children, seem to have relented and now do some of their usual menu in kids portions.

1471348953587.jpg1836×3264 1.19 MB

There is an odd view point in this which seems to say that a pub which happens to be “family friendly” isn’t able to cater for adults not accompanied by children.

There are some places I wouldn’t want to go in as they are full of children at certain times of day (with or without children in tow myself). Equally, there are some that I wouldn’t want to go in as they only seem to cater for adults. We happen to live in a part of London that caters comparatively well for families and it would be a courageous decision indeed not to do so given the demographic. That said, there are plenty of boltholes for those that do not like children, e.g. Mr Lawrence and the Nap (which I think does have a real ale on tap now).

I really do not see the issue in all this. Those without children have an incredibly wide choice of places to go to.

Well it is of course up to the individual to interpret what they say but I would take them at their word and, for me, that represents a decent middle ground. They do go to some lengths to publish how they operate.
“Can you really keep both camps happy? We believe it is possible, but requires consideration and tolerance from everybody.”
I have had a few beers in there and it is a good pub (although the staff need to wake up a little!) - I think the attitude is the right one summed up by
“As a rule of thumb, if you are patiently following your toddler around the garden worrying that they aren’t sitting, don’t worry, but if you are enjoying a drink and your paper and haven’t really seen your child for a while, it’s probably time you went and found them.”

My rules for Fran family public eating:

Kids

1. bums on seats
2. indoor voices (edit: also have to remind my elderly dad of this rule)
3. no putting food in drinks (you’ll all know me now as am frequently heard reminding kids of these rules, especially number 3 which they only seem to do when we’re out!)

Parents

1. bring distraction techniques (stickers, colouring)
2. no phones (breaking that one right now but it’s just the baby)
3. eat quickly and leave before breaking point
4. i forgot this one - clear up the inevitable debris on the floor before leaving

This is what i ask of others

1. servers please bring the kids food asap and preferably not boiling hot. Hungry kids are grouchy kids. Also this means we leave quickly and you can turn your tables quicker
2. bring my wine immediately in case i have to leave urgently so at least I’ve had a drink
3. other customers if my kids are pissing you off tell me or tell the staff. Sometimes a telling off from someone else works wonders. But don’t assume they are going to piss you off before they’ve done anything wrong. They might pleasantly surprise you

[quote=“chrisbeach, post:35, topic:1499”]
I haven’t tried the Prince of Wales but it’s recorded as family friendly. The Nap is my local but it’s tiny, doesn’t serve food, and as far as I know doesn’t serve craft beer (happy to be corrected). Not tried the Bricklayers Arms (bit of a walk from me, and also recorded as family friendly)[/quote]
Bricklayers is certainly more family friendly than it used to be, as long as you hide in the backroom. I haven’t been to the PoW for a long time, but when I used to live just behind it I rarely ventured in. Good to hear that both of these pubs are following the ‘family friendly’ route. Even the BHT has a family friendly garden, but I doubt children would be made very welcome in the bar.

My rules for Michael’s family public eating (applies only the the garden of the Woodhouse):

Kids

1. Do not piss in the fountain
2. Do not drink from the fountain
3. Put the stones back where you found them
4. Whose ball is that? Give it back to him
5. Go and find your shoes
6. What did I say about the fountain?

Parents

1. Has anybody seen our children recently?
2. Calm down, I’m sure the food will arrive eventually.
3. Have another drink.

Ha. I’ve not been back to the woodhouse since the world’s worse santa experience

LOL !!

Fair solution.

@fran What is the WGT and where is that GLORIOUS garden?

Your rules for eating with kids seem exactly the same as mine were way back when my kids were little. Now they are teenagers all I ask is that they don’t sit silently and glowering like Dementors sucking all the joy out of the world.

Watsons General Telegraph, over the hill and in Se22 (forest hill road) but worth the trek.the garden is amazing. The food is Ok. There are lots of different beers and three types of rose wine. Music in the evenings. And I’ve never seen a child there in the evenings. It’s pretty quiet during the day but lively at night. One of my favourites. Except the massive hill to get home.

Ooh a chance to share my favourite article on opinions vs facts http://www.houstonpress.com/arts/no-it-s-not-your-opinion-you-re-just-wrong-updated-7611752
Not that it has anything to do with if you like pubs or hate kids or anything, but I like to share it anyway.

I’ve not laid witness to this clash of culture expressed here. But I now an image of opposing forces bearing down on a drinking establishment… one thrusting their children to the front and the other a selection of craft beer. Like some game of chess where babies and bottles play the role of pawns.

My “regulars” are becoming the Dartmouth Arms and the Railway Telegraph followed by the Signal and the Sylvan Post. Cards on table I don’t really like kids. My first and only visit to the Capitol was tainted by far too many children. And the Railway Tavern beer garden is a bit too child friendly for my liking. But I’ve wait to feel a session was tainted by the proximity of children. There have been annoyances, yes but I like to think my intentional expressions of disdain quickly move on the perpetrators.

I guess the point is I don’t really see what the problem is. Maybe I don’t go to bars enough. But when I do its usually with friends in tow and we create on our atmosphere. On occasion I wonder whether our bawdy language and robust guffaws might be offputting for those in the family way but I then accept it as a reasonable response to vocal expressions of little Johnny or little Miss Things continuing efforts to butcher Lady Gaga.

Que sera I say.

That aside, I do wonder about parents drinking to excess in a pub with children in tow. That doesn’t seem right to me.

So I take it that I probably shouldn’t bring my two along for the next meet up in August then…

You can. I would just silently judge you then talk about it in an online forum.

.[quote=“armadillo, post:53, topic:1499”]
So I take it that I probably shouldn’t bring my two along for the next meet up in August then…
[/quote]

Depends on the standard of the food in the chosen location.
Mediocre to ok, they can come (til 8)
Anything over good, no kids please

Just kidding. Trying to get the feel for what the average take on all comments is

Me too, even though I won’t even be there! It’s just the done thing.

Some pubs don’t allow children after 7 or 7.30pm, or didn’t used to. Not sure of present situation.
One pub stated that this policy was in compliance with their licensing restrictions.

This is at the discretion of the pub and is not a bad idea IMO. Some only allow children in certain parts of the building, like the Victoria Inn on Bellenden Road, for instance.

WGT was The Rose pub in its previous incarnation and before that the Forest Hill Tavern for many years.

Guess all know my views on this!

I for one always think kids should be allowed to be where they are allowed to be at suitable times.

Not all kids are rowdy & from my experience, guess what I’ve never experienced any unruly kids in SE23 establishments

I may be bias as I have kids, but mine are older now (13 & 18) but I hope I’m not.

Wright family rules when eating out!

My Older Kids

• Don’t use mobile phones at the table, it’s unsociable
• No elbows on the table - pet hate of mine!
• Talk about our day
• Leave your cutlery as it should be when finished eating - another pet hare!
• Always a reminder to never talk with your mouth full, even though I encourage talking about our day after dinner
• Always have fun
• After dinner quiz or game is always a must, we have a few favs

Me as the parent

• All of the above, same rules apply to me, I think that’s important!
• Don’t work
• Two glasses of wine max for me
• Encourage talks about the kids day & what they have done
• Always try and make it a fun experience
• Always create some kind of quiz or game for after dinner as we all love and enjoy this

I sound like a Sargent Major here when I jotted this down

Ya hear that @anon5422159 lol

If you’re feeling brave, visit Mamma Dough after work on a weekday (just one example), and you might understand where I’m coming from. I only speak from personal taste, but being surrounded by screaming babies and runaway toddlers ruins the restaurant experience for me.

Perhaps it’s my fault for attending during the twilight zone of 6:30pm-8pm, but this is when I like to eat. I don’t have as much flexibility as stay-at-home parents, because I have a day job and a commute.

And IMO it shouldn’t be up to quiet respectful diners like me to reschedule our meals - instead, negligent parents ought to act more considerately.

Just a final note to thank parents like @Fran who obviously set standards of behaviour for their kids and do consider the adults around them.

The “flexibility” of stay at home parents? I think you might get a battering for that one lol. While there is a tendency to believe it’s a simple task, I would beg to differ. lol

I agree, if the kids are misbehaving, and not just acting like children, (fidgity and a little noisy) it makes for an unpleasant environment, especially after a long day at work.
But I guess on the flip side, how should patrons of a pub behave? Big game on, during family friendly hours. Should they cheer quietly, change their behaviours and language, and dress in a non alarming fashion?

I get your point, I really do, but just flipping the coin for you for fun.

I guess it all depends whether we think pubs are for adults or pubs are for kids?

lol back round in a full circle there, nicely played. Pubs that allow children I guess.
Very few restaurants advertise themselves as “NO Children Allowed” So the parallel would have to be drawn there in fairness.
If they are not prohibited, and frequently go there, then surely the same etiquette should apply, and work both ways. All parties behaving in a family friendly manner.

Pubs are for the public, i.e. public house, though it is up to the discretion of the landlord who they serve, big or small. Children are specifically catered for by the licensing act when it comes to serving food. You can always choose a pub which doesn’t serve food and you will probably avoid children altogether - any childish behaviour will be from the drunk adults only.

Am struggling to see the problem here.

I wish you could read that from a non-parent perspective.

Why is it that a minority of anti-social parents deserve the monopoly on pubs that serve food, to the detriment of quiet and respectful adults?

Anyway, I think I’ve said everything I wanted to. Will step aside and stop dominating this conversation.

Is anyone actually saying that? I think we’re all violently agreeing that kids should behave respectfully of their surroundings in pubs, as should adults. For what it’s worth, I think you might be in danger of breaking your own straw man rule…

I wish you could see that from a non-parent perspective. You can go to any business you choose whenever you like. Even in this comparatively family friendly area, it is much harder to find a place that caters for children well. As a result we rarely eat out but when we do, we do not encounter the anti-social behaviour you refer to.

Bit late now that you have started, and fed, yet another thread on the subject!

FWIW, as a parent, the last place I want to take my child for lunch is where other kids are misbehaving. There’s nothing that sends your own kids beahviour downhill faster than a badly behaved role model.

Casting class stereotypes aside, I note that the young kids in McDonalds in Sydenham are often better behaved than Tarquin and Tamara in The Signal on a Sunday.

I propose that any time this subject comes up, posters are referred to this thread and required to read all the comments. They would then only be allowed to add a comment if they can robustly defend it as not repeating anything that has already been said. No new threads to be opened on this topic ever again.

Fair points being made by all I think, certainly not going to reach agreement on it, that’s for sure.

But I agree strongly with @Moto_Hodder on the locations and behaviours. Possibly as McDonalds usually seems to stimulate and engage kids minds a lot more than establishments. Not saying one is right and one is wrong, far from it. Just an insight I guess into what drives some behaviours.

There is always going to be a clash of opinions.

Aaah what happened to freedom of speech eh
I agree though, and think that peoples opinions on these matters are pretty clear, apart from when mixed, huh!

What I nice idea. I won’t have to say the same as I’ve said before on multiple threads on multiple forums. See also
https://se23.life/t/negligent-parents-in-restaurants/769/29?u=michael
https://se23.life/t/negligent-parents-in-restaurants/769/34?u=michael

And my favourite:
https://sydenham.org.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=7692&p=60277&hilit=children+pubs#p60277

[quote=“michael”]Eagle,
Can I recommend you use some of the fine pubs that no longer allow children:
Two Halves, Greyhound, Woodman, Moor Park Tavern, Forest Hill Hotel, Green Man, and the Tigers Head.[/quote]

I lived here with a child and before I had a child and can honestly say that

a. When I was child free I never noticed any problem with children running around pubs/ restaurants in the area. And believe me I had a radar for that. Surely at the time most adults go out for dinner children are in bed anyway?

b. Since having a baby I have found most places to be child friendly and accommodating and I hope it stays that way. We all live in this community together, including children

On the issue of ‘adult’ food - lots of children like good food too. There does tend to be an assumption that children like rubbish food. Having come from a holiday where my children’s favourite place to eat was the beach bar that served mussels and calamari, I can assure you that’s not always the case!
In fact my children don’t really like McDonald’s food - when we have been there they want the toy but have picked at the food, and are hungry a couple of hours later, so it’s not very good value for money (my own fault really for giving them The Butchery burgers at home!).
Also if I’ve gone to the time, effort and cost of going out to eat I want them to have some good quality food, not chicken nuggets.
Children’s menus are useful for the portion size, because children simply don’t eat the same amount as adults. But I often solve this issue by ordering one adult meal and a spare plate, and divide it between two children.
I think it’s good for children to experience ‘normal’ eating environments to help with learning social skills and etiquette, and not only eat in fast-food type places.

These debates seem to crop up regularly and always go round in circles because at the end of the day children are just people, they are not a separate species. In the same way that there are polite people and rude people, there are parents that supervise kids well, and there are those that don’t. It’s annoying but just life.

I feel that we have plenty of choice of pubs and restaurants in this area to suit everyone. For example, I don’t really like hearing people shouting and swearing at sports on TV when I am trying to have a drink and chat to my friends. But I don’t moan about why people feel the need to swear in pubs. I choose a pub that isn’t showing football!

It was a nice change being abroad (in Spain, but I think this is true of many other European countries) where all restaurants are full of families, children, grandparents, until quite late at night, and everyone is just very relaxed about it all. From what I saw I wouldn’t say the Spanish children are any better or worse behaved than British kids, pretty much the same.
They do seem to like children in Spain, when mine was a baby I remember her being picked up and whisked off to be cooed over by a happy waitress, to her delight (and mine, as I got to eat a meal with two hands!). From memory I think this happened more than once! Couldn’t imagine that happening here!

Hear hear! Totally agree and very well put.