Redecorating Forest Hill Subway [2020]

Anybody know how we can go about getting the subway painted by a graffiti artist? Sounds like a perfect time to do so right after the big clean.

To repeat my other post, I would second that!
I would love to see some welcoming and inspiring colourful creativity in that space by these talented artists currently brighting up corners of FH.

These guys do some amazing stuff: callinglondoninfo@gmail.com

They do it for only the cost of the paint which I’m sure we could easily crowd fund.

The main remaining question is who can give permission?

I’d prefer to keep it graffiti free. It’s a dingy space and any artwork will start others tagging. It may be nice for a few weeks, but I think it would be a downward spiral until people start avoiding it.

@Andy I disagree you only have to look at other subways that have done the same to
See how it brightens up the space. Any tags would go unnoticed against the artwork and would be rather pointless for the culprit. However a bright white wall just attracts dirt and bad graffiti.

When the Old St Station subway was drenched in colour, it felt more inviting than beforehand, and as far as I’ve seen, there hasn’t been an uptick in tagging

I’d suggest and say that you only have to look at other subways that are wrecked spaces as evidence of how graffiti can detract from a space.

Happy to be convinced by photos of other subways that have been grafittied, but the ones linked to by Chris appear to include an artist’s render and a freshly painted wall. I’m sure that, day 1, it would look great, but it is day 365 that I would be doubtful about.

The FH subway would surely counter that premises.

As previously mentioned, I remember when Herne Hill underpass was grotty and a place to be avoided. A recent visit and their mural still looks colourful and inviting. Any tagging get’s cleaned up by local effort (as does the tagging on the current blank dreary FH underpass)

I agree with @chamonix a blank wall is more a target for tagging and bad graffiti than a creative colourful piece/s of artwork that can be enjoyed by the whole community.

Personally I like the subway clean and easy to disinfect. Many thanks to those who take the trouble to clean it. I do think graffiti breeds graffiti. And who can set themselves in judgment to decide what’s “good” and what’s “bad” graffiti? There’s very little that I’ve seen that’s not repetitive or derivative. (Ducks now.) If we have to have any then I’d say hoardings are fair game, as they’re (hopefully) not there long and if keeps people from tagging brickwork etc then I won’t object as long as it’s privately funded and cleaned.

Edit: AK8’s post about the Herne Hill children’s work appeared while I was writing my post. I do feel differently about little children’s work (though not on brickwork! - it should still be removable.) And I think it would have been much better if the Herne Hill children had got to design it too.

@Andy you only need to look at the response to the graffiti artists on the temporary boards by the old coop to see the effect. I’d be happy for them to take the same designs and apply to the underpass. Wether it’s paint, mosiac or spray paint makes no difference. We’re talking about commissioned artists not 15yr olds with a spray can.

To make this happen we need to find out who to ask to get permission. Is it the council?

I think this could be TFL owned

I found an old article from 2012 on the reburbishment of the station underpass on the Forest Hill Society website including a letter that was sent to our then MP in which it stated

Network Rail own the right of way, but share responsibilities for maintenance with Lewisham Council.

I’m not a particular fan of this idea. The white panels bounce light into the underpass. When at their cleanest the underpass positively shines.

This leaves the brick work at the Dartmouth end bit. I suppose a mural could be painted there, but I often find murals become quickly dated and faded. And while some might enjoy a giant child’s painting, other (like myself) might find them naive and lacking in merit. Why should we have to suffer bad art?

I’m sure a graffiti/urban artist could be found but it might take much more than a few pots of paint. And if a graffiti/urban artist if commissioned they should be expected to be paid for their work. But to me the beauty of this type of art is its transient nature. That it is often replenished by other artists, and sometimes even augmented. The work currently on old Coop hoardings is a great example. They’re not permanent, some might change (banana) and other might give way to new works.

Actually I know of a lot of very talented artists who will paint something amazing for just the cost of the paint and be happy to do so.
Personally I find the white boarding to be rather depressing so there’s going to be a large range of feelings on the matter.

So I suppose the council would be a good place to start. Anyone know someone we could approach ?

Maybe we’d prefer to point our attention to the busy portacabin train station and it’s frontage rather than decorating the tunnel. Just a thought, like.

I would rather it stayed light and bright as it is. Instead how about addressing the unsightly bins on the WH Smith side. Some more art around there would help too.

I see the comments about not wanting to make the underpass darker or somehow vandalised, but I don’t think adding some art or identity to that space is synonymous with it becoming somehow dimly lit or subject to graffiti.

All that’s needed is something light, simple or subtle to make the underpass less unremarkable. The already cited example shows how this could be done with a geometric design, though I think Forest Hill should aim higher

The outstanding indented and standout idents @Lionel has drawn under various railway bridges have also survived very well and not attracted more graffiti or vandalism. I don’t think that should be any more of an issue than current maintenance of the area.

So I would welcome some sort of character being added to that underpass, but would ideally like to see a short list of possible designs and public vote to select what might finally be painted.

Of course organising this all on a small budget may prove tricky…

I understand the thinking behind this idea but the underpass which is seen by some people each day does not look bad right now. However around the station/WH Smith area does need attention and is seen by many more people each day. I feel there could be more dramatic results in those areas.

Improving the underpass is a separate issue to improving the area around the station, and perhaps a simpler issue too. Unless they are competing for funds (which hasn’t been suggested), doing one shouldn’t hold back the other - so ideally do both!

From our man in Network Rail:

I like the idea and I also think it would be nice if it could incorporate a homage to the women who sadly died, whose shrine in the passage keeps being removed (she was homeless and sorry, I can’t remember her name).

I think the shrine was already discussed at the time and it was decided to let family and friends place flowers etc but not to erect a permanent shrine.

I think a poll is in order!

Regarding a memorial for Stefania

Ah makes sense, just annoying how it all gets removed…

I don’t think a memorial should be up for a vote. Please remember that this is an underpass used by the whole FH community (not just people active on this forum) and everyone did not approve of the temporary shrine that was created or the longevity of it.

If you could get a representative sample of opinions from those who don’t use this forum that would be very interesting to see, as ideally we’d want to consider the views of both groups of people.

I wonder how and why their opinions might differ from those of forum users on this subject?

BTW I agree that a memorial to Stefania is inappropriate

Without being certain, I believe there was a decision made to use monies from the crowdfunding towards a donation to the homeless charity which was in main contact with her. I also believe there was a decision to end, and clear out the flower tributes etc. at Christmas acknowledging these things are never meant to be permanent.

Their (neighbours and local friends and acquaintances) opinions are much on the same ground of what I, you and others have previously and most recently expressed on the related thread.
As that thread has been revised it is unreasonable to draw this thread off track with much more of the same.

The subway feels safe as it is at night. I’d be against covering the white panels with graffiti which would make it darker.

I think the word “graffiti” has negative connotations for some people. What myself and others are suggesting is artwork possibly applied by vinyl. Some great examples are…
rotherhithe station Artwork on northbound Rotherhithe station platform | Flickr

And shadwell station

image710×532 68.5 KB

I think Sarah Mcmenemy created the artwork for shadwell.

Only a straw poll with a small sample set, but so far only a lukewarm reception to the idea of redecorating the subway:

image984×1091 380 KB

Shall we put the idea on ice?

Yes.

I dunno that’s a lot more in favour for redecorating than was needed to change the colour of my passport…

The small sample set that it was “Allow street art/artists…” suggestions still garnered slightly more interest. I guess you can’t please everyone…

If you ignore the ‘free rein’ option the rebased split is 48-52 .

But seriously, a vote like this should probably be ranked choice - I’ll bet you all those in favour of ‘free rein’ would have voted for ‘Street art’ if ‘free rein’ was not an option.

I think there’s a big difference between TfL-sponsored artwork on busy platforms and street art in dingy underpasses.

The nature of our underpass space means one well-intentioned mural will attract the artless contributions of anyone with a half-decent marker pen or spray can from Halfords. From then on it’s the broken windows theory – allow the build-up of graffiti (which will follow street art) in an already grubby space and it’ll just snowball from there.

It’s sometimes used as a makeshift skate park as it is – coat the walls with paint and it’ll get worse. Keeping it light and dare I say clinical makes it feel slightly safer at night.

So there’s a clear majority (57%) in favour of some artwork.

Would the same people who voted for it be willing to provide regular maintenance of it to remove the inevitable unauthorised tagging that would follow?

I imagine it’d need minimum fortnightly attention to stop it looking tatty, plus the occasional big cleanup when someone layers over it with something the community didn’t approve. If they are, great.

I hate to be pessimistic, but I’m a Londoner, it comes with the territory

I’m really not sure where all these rampant taggers are coming from. But if someone does tag it at least it will be harder to see than on a blank canvas. We can do the same old same old in fear of others ruining our fun or we can make moves to make parts of forest hill better. 57% sounds like an actionable number to me…

The other option to keeping it bright and light is to install more lights or upgrade the current ones… Modern LED tubes are brighter and more efficient than old florescent tubes for example.

Am I hearing light installation? Good idea.

There is an ongoing and constant battle with graffiti up and down the high streets. I am constantly asking for it to be removed on fix my street with mainly good results but the problem is there.

If anyone would wish to talk to the Forest Hill Society about this, members of the executive will be among those helping to clean the subway at 11am on Saturday. Why not come and help out?

For future reference:

Ditto on graffiti too. Feel like the paparazzi sometimes. I am having trouble, however, doing anything on the south circular as it’s under TFL’s domaine so there isn’t an option to ‘tag’ it as graffiti, only bus stop graffiti. Any ideas?

You can still report it on fix my street. It’s Lewisham council graffiti team who get notified and good at removing it.

Well that’s what I used to do, but if you ‘pin’ the location as the south circular all those options are removed as it becomes a TFL road and therefore the only tag option for graffiti is ‘bus shelter’. If you use that tag when it’s not a bus shelter it doesn’t get fixed. If you choose ‘other’ for example it tells you it’s not an option and you can’t report. So either way it doesn’t work.

I think I normally just put the address in or “outside Smith’s” for example. Fix my street have forwarded my post to London Overground before now if problem is on their land.

Maybe try the ‘Love Clean Streets’ app if you can - I think it filters into the same systems, but I’ve never known it to remove options based on location or road.