Southern Rail

Why are they so bad and why do we put up with them.

A controversial opinion, I know, but I don’t find them all that bad. I should add that I get an early train into London Bridge and return home before rush hour kicks in, so the trains are usually OK, on time and I always get a seat. I remember Connex, now they were crap. I guess I have always judged Southern in line with their truly awful predecessors. Having said all that, I’m sure that if I was forced to do the rush hour day in day out I would not be praising Southern (I base this on friends who are always moaning about them).

Having posted that, I checked live updates; my train is delayed. Bloody Southern etc etc

I posted that last night after a few beers in Borough. Had to wait 45 minutes for a train and was told at one stage they had all been cancelled so we had to make our own way home as there were no more. There was almost a riot at LB. This strike and ‘sickness’ is getting on my nerves. Next time is see one of the illustrious union leaders going into Burger and Lobster in Farringdon I shall boo them.

Talk to the staff on the platforms at LB, they have no sympathy for drivers or conductors.

It is a complex subject and none of the parties involved come out of it well IMO:

@Brett I agree, really poor from both sides and us caught in the middle.

@Joey_H, as much as I personally disagree with transport union action I’m really pleased we have the benefit of your insight here in the forum. Keep up the good posts!

I would Jubilee to the Overground if I were you. Canada Water platform was busy but surprisingly I managed to get a seat on the train and it’s running at a decent pace.

I am on a train. Pass the party

Well here we all are again. Cancelled trains because it rained. It will no doubt cascade on and on.

A nice reposte to today’s emergency timetable announcement;

http://m.thedailymash.co.uk/news/society/southern-rail-to-replace-timetable-with-avant-garde-poem-20160704110166

Revised timetables out , nice to see my morning rush hour train has been cancelled, 07:59 from Norwood Junction that leaves from Forest Hill at 8:09, should be fun a bit of overcrowding going on round that time, even more so when a train is cancelled!

http://www.southernrailway.com/your-journey/revised-timetable

Grrr… that’s my normal commute train as well. Mind you, it normally seems to be the first sacrifice to the delay gods the second another other than a perfect day is encountered. Since the 08:22 normally gets stuck outside London Bridge more often than not I had better warm my boss up to my new Southern inspired working pattern … ie, i’ll mainly be arriving late (

I have to say it is pushing me towards buying a bike. They really are useless as a train company.

Southern Rail to replace timetable with avant garde poetry. When you’ve become the subject of Daily Mash satire things really are bad.

I saw this the other day and had a chuckle. Then remembered I had to use the “service”. Sad, just bloody sad.

On the whole we’re relatively lucky compared to our neighbours who use East Dulwich where peak services will be ONE PER HOUR from Monday.

The Government has responded to the recent petition to remove Southern’s franchise.
Expected to be back on track by 2018:

Govia Thameslink Railway are delivering plans to reverse decades of under-investment on the rail network. Removing the franchise from GTR will not address the challenges on this part of the network.

The challenges of this part of the network are not new. The industry and Government are addressing the longstanding, historic problems, including driver shortages, rolling stock and network capacity. By 2018 we expect to return the network to the performance that all passengers deserve, and we will do it with increased capacity, renewed facilities and robust, durable infrastructure. Changing the name on the company’s front door would do anything to solve the problems.

This part of the network is extremely complex; indeed it is one of the busiest in Europe. Punctuality on this part of the network has always proven challenging due to the complexity of the infrastructure and the volume of services that operate on it. However, we know that passengers are very frustrated about performance and the service they receive.

The Govia Thameslink Railway (GTR) franchise incorporates an unprecedented level of investment in the network. The introduction of new trains, new infrastructure and new ways of working is intended to reverse decades of under-investment on this part of the network and provide passengers with more capacity on more reliable services. Given the recent growth in passenger demand, maintaining the status quo is not an option. But the transformation cannot occur overnight. It will take time and close management across the industry to ensure improvements are delivered to passengers.

Using the contractual mechanisms available, the Secretary of State served a Remedial Plan notice to GTR last year. In response, GTR have developed a Remedial Plan in response which includes obligations for GTR to recruit and train sufficient drivers to operate current and future timetables, improve reliability of rolling stock and provide better customer information. Passengers are still likely to see disruption occurring in the short term as these plans take time to implement, however taking the franchise away from GTR will not help resolve the issues. This would only create a period of uncertainty for passengers and staff alike. While there are plans in place that are addressing the situation, it is right to allow the current operator the time to address and work through the issues.

Over the past six months (as at June 2016), both Southern and Thameslink PPM has been steadily increasing, with the four weekly aggregated figures rising from 75.6% in December 2015 to 83.7% at the end of April 2016 for both services. Unfortunately, the recent challenges have seen a deterioration in the measure.

I’ve been clear that the current situation on Southern and Thameslink routes is unacceptable and that passengers deserve a far better service. However, the situation has been made far worse by union bosses, who are leading their members into a dispute that is in no way justified. During May and June, a significant proportion of the cancellations was caused by the unjustified industrial action on this route, and the operator has a contractual right not to be penalised for events like this that are outside of their control. It is disappointing that union bosses continue to overlook the impact they are having on passengers, and we urge the unions to work with the operator to resolve this issue as a matter of urgency.

The Franchise Agreement sets out the steps the Secretary of State must take should GTR not meet its contractual performance benchmarks. There are further actions available to the Secretary of State should GTR not meet their obligations and be in breach of its Franchise Agreement. At that point the Department will follow its published enforcement process.

Whilst we understand the frustration felt by passengers affected by disruption, we would like to assure you that the Department for Transport is determined to see further improvements and for GTR to provide the service that passengers expect.

Department for Transport

Is there a potential end in sight? http://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/southern-rail-union-offer-to-suspend-strike-action-amid-crisis-a3290966.html

I guess not! http://www.standard.co.uk/news/transport/more-misery-for-southern-rail-commuters-as-bosses-reject-strike-amnesty-a3291301.html

Interesting analysis of the situation here:

Wow! What an analysis! So many factors and variables combining to create a perfect storm. I thought I had a little understanding, but it appears that there is far more to it than I’d imagined

@Brett Superb, thank you. So not as simple as I originally thought. What a c*ck up.

BBC London TV News report about today’s protest and commuters at East Dulwich who now only have ONE train per hour in the peak.

What the? The CEO of Govia Thameslink just kept repeating the same media lines. Why’d she bother? I hope this improves by the time services to London Bridge restart in August.

New Transport Secretary says Southern is his priority…

Oh dear.

Coincides with the Olympics … just like the last strikes coincided with key Euro 2016 football games. How serendipitous!

RMT can see that Southern is in trouble, and looks like they’re taking the opportunity to disrupt a private franchise, in order to force it into TfL hands. Which may be a good thing - but it shouldn’t be for a union to use its power in this way.

Though TfL is hardly immune to RMT action either.

Quite! The RMT will stop at nothing to protect its own power.

With a 5 day strike coming up and other industrial action promised what is to be done? It feels that with a large capital city, transport workers have an effective lock (we will strike and paralyse the city, we are Millwall etc). So the RMT/Southern are the English cousins of various transport strikes in France, or perhaps the 21st century cousins of the miners c.1974. One solution is to follow a Reagan route when he aggressively took on (I guess effectively sacked) air controllers unless they signed a new contract. But that will mean a dispute rumbling on.
I’m rather left with increasing the ability to work from home …

The sun is shining, the doors to the garden are open and I am working away, Southern and the Unions can get knotted.

Fine for me I know but I do feel sorry for commuters who have to use Southern.

Apparently the strike has been called off for the final two days… but too late so that anything can change about the services tomorrow (Thursday).

Just a quickie

Good news if you like the RMT, strikes and rail chaos:

http://www.croydonadvertiser.co.uk/yet-more-rail-strikes-on-the-way-as-union-backs-industrial-action-over-ticket-office-closures/story-29625557-detail/story.html

RMT just voted for more strikes.

Quality rolling stock.

As I sit here at my “home office” I do feel for those having to use Southern today. I wonder if the unions would have a “Meet the Unions” day at London Bridge like Southern do every 3 months or so? Now that would be interesting.

IMHO for us FH users it was pretty much too much of nothing. As I was leaving the house today I mentioned to my other half that I was heading for Catford Bridge and the Southeastern services. He noted FH is pretty much unaffected by this strike. I looked up the FH departures on the National Rail app and saw that was pretty much the case.

No delay to my journey today.

Still sucks for the Southern Rail suburban commuters.

It’s the uncertainty that got to me in the end. Working from home is now stress free and a heck of a lot cheaper.

LOL. If I had the choice of working predominately from home I would. As it stands I usually WFH one day a week and that is only allowed reluctantly by my employer.

I am fortunate as being my own boss I can choose where to work (and my work subject means I can also work remotely). There are many others who cant and I do feel for them.

@Cazimo Bar one or two peak trains, Southern services from our stations have been largely unaffected during the RMT conductors strike.

Spare a thought for our neighbours in East Dulwich who only had ONE train per hour during the peak until Monday when their services were added back to the timetable.

What I dont get is that the strike is the RMT saying not having a conductor is dangerous but the FH train doesnt have one. Double standards.

It’s interesting you mention that - I was on the 17:52 about a fortnight ago and there were three Southern employees. one in a suit and two in uniform. the suited guy was teaching the two uniforms how to make announcements regarding stations the train goes to and when arriving at one.

I’ve now seen the same ‘announcer’ on 3 more occasions on rush-hour Southern trains. He seems to stand in the middle carriage. Seems utterly pointless as the driver always had this responsibility & is the one who knows when the train is going to pull in!

Interesting Press Release from Southern Railways today:

[quote]
We welcome today’s announcement by the Department for Transport offering Delay Repay compensation for services delayed for more than 15 minutes - https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/rail-passenger-compensation

The new Delay Repay scheme will be introduced in the next few months on all of our services - Southern, Great Northern, Thameslink and Gatwick Express.

The existing compensation threshold for delays starts at 30 minutes. Under the improved scheme customers will be able to claim 25% of the cost of the single fare for delays between 15 and 29 minutes. The existing Delay Repay thresholds will remain and are as follows:

• 50% of the single fare for delays of 30 to 59 minutes;
• 100% of the single fare for delays of 60 minutes or more;
• 100% of the return fare for delays of 2 hours or more.

When passengers are delayed, they deserve compensation and we strongly advise all our passengers to make a claim. This announcement will be good news for those with shorter journeys who think it is unfair they receive nothing for delays under 30 minutes. Now a decision has been made, we will work hard to implement this as quickly as possible.

The new Delay Repay 15 compensation scheme is another example of the changes being made to improve the services we offer our customers. Since 1 October we updated the way customers could receive their compensation, including electronic bank transfer (BACS) and PayPal. [/quote]

Interesting indeed. Unless I am missing something, doesn’t affect Overground though. However, makes sense that Southern (GTR) should blaze a trail on this.

Plus there is a scrolling checker which lets you know what stations are coming up and an automated announcement when pulling into a station. Jobs for the boys springs to mind.

I see the RMT is on strike over Christmas / New Year (so they can have an extended Christmas / New Year hols). There seems to be no resolution in sight. Next steps? Sack the lot (aka Reagans tactics re the US Air Controllers)? Or just take the strikes as the “new normal”. Of course we are lucky that most of our trains are Southern Metro and so are one man operation.

A post was merged into an existing topic: Majority for strike action

Politics, @anon5422159!!!

Picked up from another forum, London Bridge to Honor Oak Park, Forest Hill is down to 2 trains an hour in the evening peak. I went onto Train Line for next Monday and Wednesday and the only services are 17:06, 17:37, 18:14, 18:36 (and the 18:14 is actually a change at New Cross Gate and get Overground).

There seems to be something really weird with the London Bridget to Victoria route. I typed in London Bridge to Victoria on Monday evening and there aren’t any trains! Trainline tells you to go Elephant Castle go to Blackfriars and get the tube to Victoria.

So it looks like London Bridge to Victoria is kaput which impacts us. Nothing obvious about this on the Southern Rail site. Unless it is part of the London Bridge redevelopment works?

London Bridget?! I love this… made me smile. (I am Irish and know lots of Bridgets/Bridies/Breeg etc)

That’s wonderful news as the 17:20 was my preferred service and the more reliable service 17:37 is often cancelled, which means the later train will probably be rammed if only 1 train is running in the hour, obviously we can get the overground but its a bit of a pain and once London Bridge is finished will no longer accept our Southern Season tickets and will have to pay for the privilege of their frequent cancellations. Will also make the Overground line busier than it already is around peak time.

Eh? My annual card is good for any train, bus, overground, underground service within London’s zones 1-3. Is this changing?

Mines a London terminals only ticket a lot cheaper than anual zone 1-3 travel card I only need to go as far as London bridge during the week for work

I can still see LB to Victoria trains on Trainline. A problem with your search maybe? I don’t know about Trainline, but the TfL planner is notorious for not showing routes from FH into London via London Bridge because Overground routes are a fraction quicker by their calculations. Sometimes I have to remove the ‘quickest’ filter from TfL to find the next train via London Bridge instead of the Overground.

nationalrail.co.uk shows the following LBG-FOH direct trains:
17.06
17.20
17.37
17.52
18.21 (I miss the 18.05 or whatever it was!)
18.36
18.53
19.06…

And your 18.14 which, as you say, is a Change at NXG (edit: note that it doesn’t seem to appear at all as an option on the National Rail iPhone app)

I had wrongly amused that the London Bridge improvements would restore our pre-works service, but we have lost platforms 8&9 to through trains. That gap between 1752 and 1821 is a killer in the evening.

As nice as having the option of the Overground is, I prefer a seat which Southern affords me. It’s great being able to get to Charing Cross fairly quickly (and all above ground) again.

Its bit of a kick in the teeth considering the years of disruption we have had to our service, while they improve London Bridge so they can run more trains then reduce our peak service and we get a fare increase at then end the year for this reduced service…

Hmm. For tomorrow evening Nat Rail shows http://ojp.nationalrail.co.uk/service/timesandfares/LBG/FOH/tomorrow/1715/dep#outwardJump
17:06 direct, 17:18 (change at Norwood Jct), 17:37 direct, 17:46 (change at Norwood Jct), 18:14 (change at New Cross gate), 18:36 direct, 18:55 change at New Cross Gate), 19:06 direct

Train line just shows 17:06, 17:37, 18:14 (with change), 18:36.

Whether this means the Train Look Up sites are now unreliable (as well as Southern Rail) I’m not sure!

Tfl still shows the 17.20 from LB tomorrow. I think national rail is faulty.

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Any Annual season tickets no how you claim a months free travel to be paid as compensation for the poor service

I had to renew my annual season ticket today, and when I asked about it at the ticket office they didn’t know anything about it, and just gave me a leaflet to do it online but thats just for individual days.
All I can find on southern site is for claiming single strike days.

Thanks

I believe that Southern are supposed to pro-activly contact you if they believe you are eligible;

Although there’s the intention to allow people who havn’t been contacted to also apply, they don’t seem to have the process ready just yet.

ok thanks think I better contact them, probably have some window to claim… they have my all my details incl email and been an annual season ticket holder for years but heard nothing and station staff no nothing about it. Can see me missing out if I’m not pro active

Just phoned Southern customer services.

They will be contacting season ticket holders if your eligible.

They had no details of me on their system for me, even though Forest hill station does where I having been renewing my season ticket for the past few years.
So they added me to there system and noted that I had phoned up regarding making a claim, strangely didn’t ask me for any tickets details just my name and address,
I would advise anyone to who reckons they are entitled to compensation to phone up.

I have an annual zone 1-3 on my Oyster. Would i qualify?

Not sure on oyster as that is TfL… on the southern site it just refers to season tickets. Which are rail only tickets. I have a feeling might not be elgible as your ticket covers a multidue of routes modes of transport and destinations, anywhere in zone 1-3… whereas mine is specific to national rail from forest hill to London terminals covered by southern. Best ring them.

I’m not sure about Oyster but I would definitely argue my case. Some proof of home and work address may help, I don’t know. Technically paper ticket vs. Oyster doesn’t make a difference in terms of who gets the farebox money as long as the paper ticket includes London zones and doesn’t say “London terminals” (in which case it would be a “full” Southern ticket).

As I understand it, Southern will contact Season Ticket holders in a first round and then offer out to people to apply who feel they have been missed, and I believe this should start very soon and will be possible until the end of March.

Congratulations to activists in the Association of British Commuters who have raised money to obtain legal advice pursuant to a Judicial Review of the Southern Rail fiasco and the Government’s handling of it.

I guess this has to be the way since clearly we have ineffective political representation and industry regulation.

Why settle for a month’s free travel? Someone has managed to get a 50% refund

“Claim was made under section 75 of the Consumer Credit Act, which holds credit card companies liable for provision of services”

The Telegraph is reporting that the Govt is considering taking direct control of southern!

Chink of light at the end of the tunnel?

Also reported in the Graun. Praise to Allah!

AFAICT it is with the drivers not the guards.

RMT are apparently still at loggerheads with Southern, so this ASLEF agreement won’t mean the end of all disruption…

One step forward, one step back again.

Press release from GTR:

As you may be aware we have been involved in discussions with the Department for Transport (DfT) over the GTR franchise contract, following the industry-wide issues surrounding the introduction of the May 2018 timetable. An agreement has been reached and we have a plan in place for the remainder of the franchise period, bringing further stability and helping build on the performance improvements since the summer.

We have also agreed with the DfT that we will contribute £15m towards tangible improvements for passengers. We will work with passenger groups to determine what improvements this package will fund, and we will be back in touch on this point. This fund is on top of the additional industry compensation we are offering to qualifying Thameslink and Great Northern customers most severely affected by disruption between 20 May and 28 July 2018.

A link to the full statement from our parent company is available here: https://www.go-ahead.com/en/media/news/2018/GTR-DfT-agreement-2018.html

I like the phrase “…plan in place for the remainder of the franchise period, bringing further stability…”
I could be reading too much into those carefully chosen words but I think they mean that DfT came close to cancelling the franchise early and they got away with a £15m fine.

To me it looks like it was drafted by the legal department and merely accepted by the PR department. Writing, “bringing further stability” means that they do not acknolwlege a previous lack of stability and explicitly referring to the remainder of the franchise period is so that they are clearly not limited by this thereafter.

Probably written as a reaction the Grayling’s parliamentary update, here:

I get the 06:57/8 from Forest Hill to London Bridge and it always seems to be on time. My only gripe is that it can sit outside London Bridge for a while, juddering its way in as it’s held to ease conjestion. Staunch Tory but they need to renationalise the railways and kick out the likes of Southern and Govia.

The only thing I’ve noticed is that WiFi is on the majority of trains now, including those older carriages.

I suppose the next franchise is subject to a completely new contract and possibly taken on by a different company so they couldn’t make any claims for what might be outside their control. Agreed all carefully worded.