Stabbing - 12th Dec 2016

Stabbing on a train which happened to be at Fh station. Man arrested.

Should this be merged with the thread on train disruption?

Or vice versa. More crime than travel. Tough call

Either way, glad he is in custody.
Just seen the other thread stating the line is now reopened, good news.

Really sad to hear that this was an attack allegedly targetted at ‘anybody who is a Muslim’. The idea that anybody should target a group of people because of their faith or race is horrible.

In previous discussions with the local police they have not been aware of any trend of racially motivated crime in the last year in our area. This is very much a one-off, and I hope it stays that way.

Please let’s not forget that the stabbing happened on the train and then spilled out so unlikely to be an FH based idiot.

Completely agree with you Michael.

This is just awful.

Police are appealing for witnesses:

http://media.btp.police.uk/r/13550/appeal_for_witnesses_following_serious_assault___

Thank you to police and ambulance services who attended the scene in Forest Hill today. My thoughts and best wishes are with those injured today.

Please do come forward if you witnessed anything today

http://media.btp.police.uk/r/13550/appeal_for_witnesses_following_serious_assault___

Doesn’t sound good.

National Rail
Emergency services are dealing with an incident at Forest Hill, causing disruption to journeys between New Cross Gate and Sydenham. This is expected to continue until 17:00.

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/service_disruptions/153083.aspx

So I have just been told. What is this world coming to!

National Rail reporting the line has reopened.

I hope the victim recovers.

Wow, that was quick, great news for commuters,

Am currently on a train to FH now. Canada Water was a bit busy but it looks like the backlog is clearing.

Good to hear, safe journey.

Unfortunately it’s sounding more and more like a xenophobic hate crime. Very sad.

Eyewitness report here: http://www.lbc.co.uk/news/london/south/lewisham/man-stabbed-at-forest-hill-station/

It sounds more like the actions of someone with mental health issues sadly.

Currently the top ranked story on BBC News website: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-38290932

And yet not in the top 10 twitter trends in London.

Had some family and friends email and call me to see of I was OK. I reminded them that I tend to avoid situations with stabby people.

I’ve merged in the other thread.

Tragic news. Thank goodness the police have the man in custody.

I really hope if this was a random attack by an idiot this person gets what he deserves, but on the other hand if it is someone with serious mental health issues I hope they get the help they so obviously need!

As someone who works in mental health I need to say that people who struggle with mental illness are more likely to be at risk to themselves than to others. We don’t have the full details of the attacker’s profile so I would be reluctant to describe him as mentally unwell (even though this could still be the case). His erratic behaviour does imply a psychopathic personality, which is different to someone being ‘mentally unwell’. I am just mindful of the stigma mental health unfortunately still carries in the wider public awareness and thought I would make this point. My thoughts are with the victims and their families and I hope they recover well.

Thanks for your post Marina, I’m not the greatest with wording!

I should have said medical issues rather than mental health issues.

I see you right with your post & do work with peeps with mental health issues for Forest Hill Fashion Week, I really should have thought more about the stigma still attached to this

I really like to believe that most sensible people don’t attach stigma to any groups regardless if they are advantaged or disadvantaged etc.

I know I assume a lot from human beings - but that’s just second nature right for most people?

Well I sure hope it is anyway

It is salutary to reflect that had it been a Muslim man with medical issues saying anti west things in this case then it is sad to say we’d have been very quick to say it was terrorism … but of course. As soon as it was reported it is ''not terrorist related" one knew it wasn’t a Muslim. I wonder how they must feel at this invidious situation.

I dont believe anyone has said the person involved is not a Muslim, neither have they said they are. What they have said is they dont believe it is terrorist related.

That I don’t have the answer too sadly.

All I can say from my personal perspective is that I couldn’t care less if anyone was black, white, green, purple, Jewish, Muslim, catholic, or anything else in between.

I would have exactly the same views & if this person is just a complete idiot or targeting any group I really hope they get their comeuppance but if they need help medically I hope it happens ASAP!

I think I would care if someone was either green or purple. They’d probably need medical attention

Or a good wash.

Man charged with attempted murder after Forest Hill train attack
Adrian Brown, 38, of Brockley Rise, Forest Hill

http://www.newsshopper.co.uk/news/14963646.Man_charged_with_attempted_murder_after_Forest_Hill_train_attack/ …

Or an industrial-size tube of arnica cream for that bruise!

There are plans for a vigil at Forest Hill Station at 6pm this evening. This has been organised by ‘Stand Up To Racism’.

https://www.facebook.com/events/212067692583888/

I saw some roses at the station this morning: one on top of a Metro newspaper stand and 3 in one of the planters. I assumed someone left them in relation to the stabbing incident.

See

Adrian Brown, who lives at Honor Lea Hostel, a residential care facility for recovering drug and alcohol addicts in Brockley Rise, Forest Hill appeared at Westminster Magistrates’ Court today. (December 14)

Brown’s legal representative, Martin Rutherford QC, noted that his client had mental health issues and did not make an application for bail.

Interesting given some of the earlier posts on here.

This gives me pause for thought on calling this a ‘hate’ crime, which I was loath to do in any case until we learned more about the perpetrator. The wider issues around that is probably a discussion for the Politicos group.

Indeed.
And as @RachaelDunlop has said, it clouds the nature of the offence too.

Not detracting from the acts of people we have seen since, but much harder to say it was truly motivated by anything.

Just passed this and there was a good turn out,

Worth keeping this in our minds, as opposed to suggesting any racial element (Islam is not a race), or even any religious element, given this man was clearly mentally unwell.

The lessons we learn from this incident should be driven by the facts, not identity politics.

I wish I’d known about that

I agree that at this stage it would be wrong to attempt to draw any conclusion. However, claims of mental health issues does not stop this being allegedly a hate crime (definition available here). I think speculation about the man accused and his motivation is not appropriate at this stage of the judicial process.

What is appropriate is to sympathise with the victim and others in the community who may feel a little less safe in our corner of London, after an isolated act of violence in the area.

I think we can safely say that anyone claiming to be the antichrist is going to go after anything they may see as a threat. It may be Muslims in this instance. If the moon landings were on TV it would most likely have been Martians.

However anything that brings people together as demonstrated by the handing out of roses is a good thing.

Relax and enjoy the holiday season (he says in his most non denominational way).

Not a great start to a sentence. I think we can safely say that a sentence that starts like that isn’t going to go anywhere useful.

It is a funny old world really. What makes the news and what goes unreported is based on the whims of social media and on what is deemed news worthy by the traditional media.
In the year to August - there were 1,749 knife crime injuries in London and 71 in Lewisham (just for under 25s) but of course most of them go unremarked on as they are not newsworthy. Total number of stabbings or “victims of knife crime who were injured” was 3,877…

So I guess a lot of why we hear about certain events is due to age, ethnicity and a whole lot of circumstantial factors…

Why??

What makes you feel safe to make such a statement?
How many cases of people claiming to be the antichrist have you met or studied?

You make it sound as if Muslims were just unfortunate to be the target. I think this minimises the impact that attacks like this on the community that has been targeted. I’m sure that’s not your intention.

And the other 71 people stabbed in Lewisham this year?? You are very good at avoiding facts sometimes.

I’m trying to understand how I’m avoiding the facts. I’ve made no comment about the other stabbing in Lewisham. Were they all committed by self-confessed antichrist?

Nick asks a good question about which stabbings are reported and which are not. I’m not aware of any others in the Forest Hill area in the last few years. That’s possibly my ignorance (certainly not a deliberate intension to ignore facts), but it is also possible that we do not suffer from as high a rate of knife crime as other areas of Lewisham (thankfully).

I think the case where a number of passengers on a train feel threatened and in danger for their lives, is worthy of reporting. I also think it was worth reporting that the suspect was allegedly targeting any Muslims on the train.

That Michael is my issue. Why is this receiving more press than any other attack in Lewisham. What makes it so newsworthy and makes someone like you go the extra mile to do something about it?

Please do not get me wrong, I applaud what you are doing but wish you would put as much effort into the other stabbings as well. I abore violence and have seen far too much of it, but to focus on one incident, why?

Actually, I don’t think this got much press coverage at all. Mentioned on the day on the local news. Second or third item. I think the fact he was on a train, where people can’t get away, and then caused people to be hiding in shops, was the main focus of the reports and are certainly facts that make this incident stand out amongst the sadly large number of stabbings in general. The fact he was threatening muslims was mentioned but not dwelt upon.

It had enough coverage for my father to call from Cape Town to ask if I was OK. He didnt do that for the other 71 stabbings. It is currently in The Guardian, BBC, Standard and The Telegraph. All online but I understand that is where most of us get our news from these days.

The entire Lewisham shopping centre was evacuated in August due to a stabbing, remember that. Thats hundreds of people involved but it received very little publicity.

Okay, I stand corrected. I don’t read newspapers online.

Nothing to stand corrected on Rachael. I just like to read a lot of press to get a wide view and it is easier online. As so much tat gets spread about on social media I like to try and pick out the fact from the fiction. It’s just me getting old and fractious.

Same here - my slightly Islamic relations from Abu Dhabi who had been staying with us texted us from there after seeing the news and my old man in Portsmouth rang me…

Pages and pages on google about it - I guess it ticks all the newsworthy boxes.

If there are other stabbings in Forest Hill that I have ignored please let me know. I put effort into a lot of different issues in Forest Hill, not really other parts of London. This is my choice and I’m afraid your wish for me to do more for other parts of London will need to remain unfulfilled. I’m not going to make any apologies for my focus on Forest Hill.

I’m going to try to suggest why the FH train stabbing got press attention when the other stabbings in the borough didn’t. Before I start, I’m trying to explain the media situation - not justify or condone it. And I accept upfront that I don’t know all the facts. But here goes:

My guess is that most of the other stabbings fell into one of two categories: (i) gang violence; (ii) muggings gone wrong.

From a media perspective, one gang having a pop at another gang isn’t a good thing, but there have been warring gangs since the Sharks v Jets, the Montagues v Capulets. When gang battles spill out into the public at large, then there’s more likely to be some media interest. But as long as the public and the media believe that gang violence is something that happens ‘over there’, there will be little interest. The situation changes when that violence results in deaths - whether of gang members or anyone else - or riots that lead to property damage, looting or injuries to police. Was the Lewisham shopping centre incident gang-related? I honestly don’t know but it would have been my guess.

Muggings gone wrong obviously do involve members of the public. But we’ve had muggings (of one kind or another) since the time of the Good Samaritan. We understand the motive for a mugging - “He has something nice that I want” - so again, no real news here. We all possibly think that the person mugged should have been more careful, less flash with the phone, whatever. Not that they therefore deserved it, but “it wouldn’t have happened to me because I’d have been more careful.” We understand these and can compartmentalise them. No news here, nothing to see.

The FH train incident was news - because the victim was entirely blameless. Not in a gang, not showing off bling, just being the person they were born and going about their business. Happening in broad daylight in the presence of many members of the public who were also allegedly threatened and scared off makes this a very different story than a gang battle or a mugging. And the motive - even if mental health issues may have been involved - appears to be connected to terrible atrocities happening all over the world.

In short - the train incident was something that didn’t happen to “them” (a gang), didn’t happen to “him” (a member of the public who perhaps could have paid more attention). It did happen - in a very real and large if somewhat abstract sense - to “us”.

That’s why it made the news.

Meanwhile in the real world.

Hope you boys have finished, and we can get back to the actual matter at hand now.
The story has reached a wide audience, mainly because it contained the medias favourite key works of the moment. No other reason really.

Contradiction? Use of “allegedly” doesn’t mask the message.
We shouldn’t, but if we were…

I hope I’m not masking any message.

Hate Crime What is it?
A Hate Incident is any incident which the victim, or anyone else, thinks is based on someones prejudice towards them because of their race, religion, sexual orientation, disability or because they are transgender.

It is reasonable for a victim or anyone else, to think or to allege that an incident is a hate crime. The suspect will be tried and in the process it may well be established what motivated the suspect, but I think witnesses have provided enough details to allege that this was a hate crime (even if that allegation turns out to be entirely incorrect).

Content deleted.

Read the definition again. Does it mention the motivation or the mental state of the perpetrator?
Hate crime is defined slightly different from some other crimes.

You are right

To stick a knife in anyone you must hate them just a bit. Covering various social spectrums doesn’t make much difference to the unfortunate person that has been stabbed.

Just because you have your view does not mean others cannot have theirs. If you feel my posts dont deserve to be read because of the way they start, well that’s your call. I prefer to try and look at it from all viewpoints. I said very early on in this thread that the individual sounded like they had mental issues but was told not to judge so I shut up. Well guess what.

Interesting article here that sheds a little light on knife crime and how the stats are changing…

Facts: http://www.met.police.uk/crimefigures/boroughs/pl_month%20-%20mps.htm

Michael, other boroughs are available.

We’re getting away somewhat from the point of the topic, which was to report the crime to members and keep them up to date with developments. If you want to have a broader discussion on knife crime in general, and the definition of hate crime, perhaps carry on elsethread?

Sorry Rachael, I just get tired of people believing thats they are in the right and anyone else with a differing opinion should be ignored. Will fetch my frock now

Just trying to keep things tidy around here. Don’t want Chris coming back from his honeymoon to find we’ve trashed the place.

Yeah, but, no, but. (Sorry, @RachaelDunlop, I’m going to reply anyway - I’ll tidy up later).

"Most knife crime in London is no longer gang-related, as young people increasingly carry knives for protection, status and safeguarding “criminal interests”.

Okay, so not exactly Sharks v Jets or gangs of marauding hordes. But it’s not exactly good law-abiding citizens carrying weapons with a clean conscience for no purpose other than self-defence. If you carry a knife for ‘status’, you’re in a group (let’s not say gang) that is prepared to face the sort of trouble that you’re not exactly going out of your way to avoid.

Point being - someone who gets hurt by someone carrying a knife when they themselves carry a knife ‘for status’ or to ‘protect criminal interests’ isn’t going to make the 10 o’clock news.

I agree - wasn’t trying to counter your point just trying to add to it.
Just how long is his Honeymoon anyway!

The longest in the history of such things, I believe.

Right, are we done?

Is it a Merchant Ivory production?

More a Magnuson/Andersson & production.

There’s a good forest hill precedent for extended honeymoons

10 posts were merged into an existing topic: Avoiding premature conclusions from the stabbing incident

He may be on honeymoon but he is being all Chris-like over in politicos.

And we wouldnt have him anywhere else.

I remain in blissful ignorance of Chris’s Politicos shenanigans. We have excellent checks and balances on the admin team - Politcos Chris isn’t allowed to so much look sideways at Admin Chris. And I keep my bleeding liberal heart staunched best I can.

And I provide a small comedy element and try not to upset Rachael.

I see its all kicking off in the underpass and Dartmouth Road.

What is?

Police, ambulances, blood. I understand (and I got this third hand) that three yoof stole some beer from the craft beer shop and legged it. They were chased and it went a bit Pete Tong. To what extent I dont know but when we drove past the station there were two or three police cars and an ambulance outside the Dartmouth Arms.

The story you heard is a bit inaccurate.

A fight happened and someone was allegedly stabbed. Then a few guys (including guy who’d been allegedly stabbed) ran in to the craft beer shop and stole bottles, presumably to retaliate. The guys then legged it through the subway and I’m not sure what happened next. Police were called at this point. That’s pretty much the extent of what I know but I don’t want to say too much more because I’m sure this is a matter for police.

A quote from the bbc in August this year:

"It is “highly likely” a drop in police stop and search usage has led to a rise in knife crime in London, a government advisor appointed following the 2011 riots has said.

In the last two years knife crime in the city rose by 16% while stop and search decreased by 41% in a year."

Anyone carrying a knife should be in fear of being randomly searched and a harsh custodial sentence.

We’ve wandered off the original topic again. If people want to discuss police policy, please take it to Politicos.

3 posts were split to a new topic: Keeping SE23.life “On Thread?”

Anybody know how to get an update on this case?

A man who allegedly stabbed a train passenger and shouted “I want to kill a Muslim” will go on trial in June.

Adrian Brown, 38, appeared at the Old Bailey charged with the attempted murder of Muhammed Askar Ali at Forest Hill station in London on December 12 last year.

He is also accused of carrying a knife and assault by battery relating to an earlier incident.

Mr Ali suffered injuries to his head and torso, as well as a punctured lung, in the alleged attack.

Brown, of Brockley Rise, south-east London, spoke only to confirm his name when he appeared in the dock flanked by officers.

Judge Stephen Kramer QC adjourned the plea hearing until February 24.

He also fixed a provisional trial to start on June 5 and last for up to seven days.

I’m reminded of an earlier post on this topic:

A reminder about the perpetrator in this stabbing incident:

But for those interested in today’s cases at the Old Bailey:

Are you suggesting I shouldn’t be interested in this case of an attack on a train at Forest Hill station?

I’m interested to see justice done and I was hoping the court case might start today, but there is no sign of it on the Old Bailey cases today and I can’t find a way to search forward in time from their site.

I will keep an eye on their website as I’m also interested in the result of this trial

An Earlswood mum showed extraordinary courage to dodge a knifeman in order to save the victim of a brutal stabbing.

Anita Greaves thought she and her baby son “were definitely going to die” as a “terrifying” knife-wielding man advanced towards them down a train station platform.
…
Children’s nurse Anita, 36, got her nine-month-old son Rex to safety by dodging the knifeman, who has schizophrenia, in a lift before showing astounding bravery to rush back to the scene of the stabbing in order to save the victim.