Community Protection Warning issued

That was a few days ago, and I saw her back again this morning.

A word of advice to well-meaning residents - I’ve spoke to others who know about her situation and it’s clear that handing cash to this beggar is not the right thing to do.

Giving money to a beggar is just about the dumbest thing you can do. You are better off giving it to a proper charity who can make the money go further and spend it on the right people.

Street beggars are either completely fake and they treat it like a job and go home at night. Or they have mental health, drug or alcohol abuse problems that need professional help.

Sometimes I wish I could run up to people and explain that to them but… That would probably cause offence / be impolite.

If this is who I’m pretty sure it is, I’ve been told from a very very reliable source that she’s not homeless like most believe, she has a home.

I also gave her a very warm parker coat around last Xmas time when I believed she was homeless, though have never seen her with it since.

I’ve offered her food on quite a few occasions, but she rarely accepts.

I do feel sorry for her

[moderator: some personal information redacted]

As was pointed out before* it probably isn’t right to discuss individuals and their situations in this open forum.

• asterix included as I myself was guilty of this.

I have also recently witnessed a middle-aged man dressed as a cyclist saying he has hurt his leg & needs money for a cab. This was on the Perry Vale side & he was there for sometime (I was sat in The Perry Vale).

Initially he looked very convincing - had all the gear on and a fairly decent bike.

It appears he has been doing it in East Dulwich too.

http://www.eastdulwichforum.co.uk/forum/read.php?5,1846251

Ah! I met him outside the All in One! Didn’t have the money for a cab but he did for a pint as I saw him having one when I left.

Dear Forest Hill,

Persistent begging is a tricky problem to tackle. I worked in the West End in the 1990’s and there were many regular beggars that went in and out of my station (Marylebone).
The issue in Forest Hill, Perry Vale and Crofton Park is nowhere near as bad but it is an issue none the less.
Our Ward Panel has made is one of our priorities on behalf of residents.
There are a few ways to tackle it, simple arrest for begging being one. However we recognise the need to try to work with other agencies and to give the beggars some support to stop the issue longer term.
Hence PC Hill and the rest of my team are using Community Protection Notices in this particular instance.
We hope this works but if it doesn’t we will be taking an enforcement approach in the coming weeks.

Best wishes,

Sgt Jon Biddle
FH/PV/CP SNTs

Aha this is the lady in the railway tunnel is it not. There have been quite a few ‘bloke holding car keys who has broke down and needs bus fare’ too to which the answer is “I’ve lived in London for over 20 years mate - I’ve heard them all.”

A bigger problem is on the London Overground trains in the evening from Highbury and Islington back to FH and beyond. There’s a beggar or begging poet with an undercurrent of aggression etc on just about every Overground train in the evenings. No guard means they just hop off one and onto the next one. It’s getting worse as time goes on. A girl on there last night asked every signle person for money one by one and tried to wake up a bloke who was asleep!

Unfortunately, it doesn’t look like the notices are that effective as she’s back there now.

I can only speak for FH & not central - but I do know that @SgtBiddle & his team are definitely on the case locally- I’ve seen them & think they do a marvellous job for our community.

They are stretched to the limit & do a bloody good job, I think they all deserve a massive thanks from all of us for keeping FH as safe as they can with a such a small team.

I really appreciate them all

May take a walk down to speak to her, but sadly I think she’s there through no choice of her own

I had a man with a bike ask me for money about a month ago by Honor Oak Park station. He said he needed it as his bike had broken and he had to get a train. He approached me on a quiet side road which I wasn’t keen on - I wondered why he wasn’t actually in the station and it didn’t feel right so I said no and then felt bad - at least now I don’t!

With the train woman they made an announcement at Canada Water today that they had captured her image and she was commiting a criminal act but she didn’t look like she could have cared less.

They are initial ‘warning’ letters. The ‘notices’ come next.
#SgtBiddle

Hi,
The British Transport Police (BTP) deal with issues on trains and the Tube.

Have you tried to contact them?

#SgtBiddle

Took a wander down, but she’s not there now. Maybe she took note.

I do worry about her though where her partners involved

Is that how she got those bruises one time? I’ve wondered about what to do to help her so many times. I see her most days.
I’ve also had the cyclist guy approach me but I’m
Not worried about him!

With the exception of rush hour, whenever I get on the overground line these days there is a beggar and the poet guy is certainly getting more aggressive in his manner. I find it really intimidating when I’m alone…

I don’t think I can reply to this on social media without concreate evidence, but it does concern me that domestic violence may be involved sadly

I know recent commenters have her best interests at heart, but as pointed out before by @Michael, by @Starman, and more than one moderator, it’s inappropriate to speculate publicly about her relationships, especially abusive ones.

Long-term beggars make themselves a “public interest” topic, but we must draw a line on how personal our comments go.

Let’s stay closer to the publicly-known facts and avoid creating too much narrative based on very personal circumstances, true or otherwise.

I don’t see much public harm being caused with people silently begging at the side of a street / underpass…
Agree that a much bigger problem for those who live in this area is the beggars on the Overground (especially at the weekend), as they come into your personal space and verbally demand money from you.

I’ve lost count of how many times the poet has tried to talk to me, or the lady who lives in an alcoholic recovery hostel in Limehouse. I’m concerned that if the police don’t take this seriously now, the Overground will become overrrun with aggressive beggars and become unsafe.

I appreciate your mod post Chris, but domestic violence is a serious issue & I would hate the fact that if we ignored it in this case & something terrible happened to this person in the near future - I don’t think it’s a bad thing if anyone wants to try to help her

Discussing the situation of a potentially vulnerable person on a public forum may put them in danger rather than making them safer.

Does anyone know which if any support organisations have approached this woman, or can suggest ones that maybe could help?

Its unfortunate this important topic began with a recognisable picture and speculation on the individual. Frankly I’m suprised this picture was used at all by FHP.

I doubt very much this would happen Rachael, but it is a possibility.

The problem I see when trying to help is that someone always seems to be lurking near her, so she never accepts - possibly because of the consequences or possibly not…

I’m not sure which agencies would come out to help if not asked for help.

Obviously there’s woman’s refuge and other services - but if someone is not able or ready to accept/ask for help then you can’t help much.

My concern here is that maybe & I say maybe that this person can’t get away to get help

She’s not recognisable though - shown from behind and no identifiable features like tattoos.

We’ve been targeted by the guy with the bike on at the Stanstead Rd/Cranston Rd intersection. As mentioned above he’s very convincing with his cycle gear etc - told us he’d hurt himself out on a ride, had no wallet on him and needed a train to Sevenoaks. I’d fallen for a similar scam many years ago so didn’t fall for it this time.

The beggars on the overground are a real problem.

I think the police have to take all begging seriously.

Addicts may beg quietly and inoffensively, but the money they funnel to drug dealers and producers is fuelling organised crime, with social consequences that extend way beyond the beggar’s own addiction.

I’m new to town, but I walk through that underpass every day and if this is the lady sitting at the bottom of the stairs then she has been nothing polite or quiet to anyone and everyone that I have ever seen.
She has never asked me for a thing, nor my girlfriend for that matter, and we haven’t seen her beg anyone for anything. She just sits, and that isn’t a crime.

Beggars continue to “ply” a line because they are successful in getting money. Maybe a campaign to encourage people to stop giving money to beggars will be more help in the long term.

I was on a train from Vauxhall last night and a chap walked the length of the train with a very well-rehearsed story. I heard him take money from five people on our carriage alone. There’s serious money in begging. Walking one carriage after another, one train after another, must make for a very lucrative daily take.

If people stopped handing their money over, beggars would stop targeting trains. It’s really important that people realise whose pockets their donation ends up in. More often than not: dealers, gangs and class-A drug manufacturers.

http://www.healthy-inclusion.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/downloads/2010/12/samuels09.pdf

If people feel they still need to give assistance to someone who says they are homeless then find out where the local shelter is and only give food or drink not money.

I note people rarely ask for money for food nowdays. This year someone did, I said no but was popping into a sandwich shop to get my breakfast, so got an extra for him and offered it to him on his way out - he smiled and said no thanks. On the plus side my lunch was sorted.

It’s a complex issue and depressing in many ways, which really needs an agency led approach to solve it as there are so many factors.

Gave a bike man some change sometime last year on perry vale - he even had what looked like scratches on his legs. Said he had come off and couldn’t cycle. Oh well.

I used to work in homelessness supporting and helping people who found themselves homeless. Usually it’s a long and horrifying train of events that have led a person there. And it’s also a long and unedifying chain of failed opportunities for services and society to support their fellow humans. I’m glad the police are trying to link with other services - occasionally (very occasionally) enforcement orders were the trigger for an individual to accept help but rarely. All it did was push the issue elsewhere and underground. I get that people don’t want people begging etc - but first we must look around and see if the services and support they need are there. Sadly ideological cost cutting has removed many services. And secondly we must please remember that we are talking about human beings with feelings. This is a woman who is begging not a beggar. A subtle but important distinction because it says they have skills, qualities, hopes and fears like all of us - circumstance forces them to live in the public gaze (and public condenmation) far more than Most of us. Please remember this.

Thanks for your comment, @Didievans. Without doubt, there are many homeless people who are genuinely on the street through no fault of their own, and who are hurt by association with the bad behaviour of a conmen and addicts who aren’t genuinely homeless.

Some argue that facing a £1.7tn national debt requires a responsible government to make tough compromises. But anyway, let’s not digress. We have an opt-in General Politics category if anyone wants to discuss government policy further.

I’m sure we can all agree that we should stand behind our police, as they track individual cases, and tackle those who aren’t genuinely homeless, and who are abusing public generosity, fuelling organised crime and creating mistrust of the genuinely homeless.

Really interesting comments on this feed.

We thought about the pic when it was initially tweeted. You cannot identify the person from it. We have not named her and will not.
I’m sure many of you may know/think you know them but we will not comment on identity.
Our local Ward Panel set our local priorities- begging is one of them.
My view is that it is NOT my teams No. 1 priority but we have to be see to try to address it.
Begging is and will always be a societal issue and one that we cannot tackle through enforcement alone.
That is why we have used Community Protection Notices rather than the blunt instrument of arrest under the Vagrancy Act.
We also aim to work with Lewisham Council and others to find a longer term solution to this local issue.
SgtBiddle

I wonder bow much bike man makes - I mean it seems a lot of hassle for some small change!

I agree this should not be your no 1 priority, you have so much to deal with as a small team & I see you guys day in day out dealing with bigger problems to keep all safe in FH & probably not many are aware of any of this as you all deal with problems straight away.

I appreciate you & the team an awful lot & actually see how much work you put in on an almost daily basis.

I for one appreciate you guys a lot as a trader & resident.

Brilliant news re;Shylo.
I just really wanted to add to comments regarding beggars on the overground trains in the evening.
I often get a late evening train back from work (around 10.45pm) and as a lone middle-aged female traveller the regular begging throughout the carridge makes me feel really uncomfitable- i feel a wally saying this but it is just a real drag at a very long and tiring day at work having someone invade your space asking for money with the same old stories.
There is one guy in particular who I believe others have mentions who does sort of street poetry and then actually gets rather nasty and abusive (In a personal way) if you don’t give him money.
regarding the local female persistant beggar. she also has taken to walking up and down the trains.
I do feel sorry for her but again its starting to feel that living in london and commuting to and from work just seems to involve constantly having someone asking for money.
I DO give to charity regularly.
I DO give to official street collectors
I don’t give to individuals shoving their outstretched hands in my face.

I have given this lady money and food in the past although I’ve tried to cease doing so after seeing a couple of things have raised questions. However I do think it’s important to stress again that she’s never actively begging, which makes the issue more difficult to confront and deal with.

I’ve also seen her abused by others in the underpass which has fostered a bit of a protective feeling. I once stepped in to verbally defend her against a large, vocal and hugely unpleasant “busker” who a) I’d never seen before, and who b) was berating her for “stealing his patch”, his “business” and not “taking a day off and letting someone else have a go for a change.” She stood her ground but he became extremely offensive to her, and to me for asking him not to use such language on a Sunday afternoon in front of families. I broke, yelled at him that if he was any good people would give him money anyway, and pointedly went to take out cash so she could escape him and his insults, hide in a coffee shop somewhere and let him play his shonky guitar for a few hours. She did disappear, I hope for the right reasons, and I felt fine about that.

I think whatever her situation, she shouldn’t be subject to bullies outside it as well as within it - be they “buskers” or drunks or just t*ts out to cause trouble. I want a peaceful and productive solution for her. I hope one can be found before she gets hurt.

Just adding that there are now usually one or two people begging outside the Co-op on Stanstead Rd particularly during evening rush hour when the shop is busiest. They tend to sit right by the door so you have to virtually step over them to get in and out. This seemed to start a few weeks ago.

I don’t want to sound cold hearted but to echo other comments, giving beggars money is never a good idea. Either give to a homeless charity or give food/clothing. Beggars will only stay in a patch if it’s making money which suggests that the good hearted people of SE23 are unfortunately encouraging this problem which seems to have increased noticeably in the past few months (the summer weather obviously being another factor). You do not help these people by giving them money, if anything you exacerbate existing problems both for them personally and for our community as a whole.

Unfortunately I fell for this one. Having thought I had heard them all, he had a nice bike with him and he was bleeding. Yes, I thought to myself. Maybe it’s a scam. But he seems to need the couple of pounds I gave him more than I do. Maybe that makes me a soft touch. I was once stranded at an airport with no passport, no money and no way of getting home and a lovely person gave me a few pounds, which I have never forgotten.

Thought I should post this about a close friend that was genuinely homeless at one point in his life & didn’t want to worry friends with what he thought were his own woes.

He didn’t ask anyone (or tell anyone for that matter) for help, He gives so much of himself to try & help genuine peeps in the same situation he found himself in through no fault of his own.

He’s a complete inspiration & works with myself & another friend @JohnRussell on some FH Community projects to help victims of homelessness & other groups that want to help themselves.

Also see https://pavement2catwalk.co.uk for more work he does completely voluntary

Saw someone having a right go at a guy sitting outside there this evening. I thought the person that had a go was very out of order & very aggressive & swearing a lot, to the point of being very abusive

They had left by the time I left the shop otherwise I would have said something, and the customers that were inside during this seemed to be checking he was okay after the thug shouted abuse at him, which I think was uncalled for (I checked he was okay too) as he wasn’t asking for anything & just keeping himself to himself.

Not sure if this is anyone mentioned previously or not, but this guy was just sitting there when I passed tonight.

That’s sad to hear. They’ll always be unempathetic people in this world that never evaluate their privilege. They have their own issues though I’m sure. Glad people were looking out never the less.

Saw the bike man in Dulwich yesterday so he obviously moves around different areas!

Do you mind me asking what you mean by that Pauline? I see her almost every time I use the underpass (daily, in other words) and sometimes I go the long way round to avoid seeing her, as her physical decline makes me miserable. I’ve never given her money, but I always say hello and smile (when I’m not avoiding her - I know, I’m pathetic) in a lame effort to make the world seem a little nicer to her. Ridiculous. Anyway, are you concerned that she’s being forced to sit there and beg?

Personal details should not be discussed on the forum.

Fair enough. But you should delete all the posts that do discuss personal details then, including the one from the police officer with the picture of the person being issued with an order. Along with the good news about Shylo!

Also, she doesn’t beg - a previous poster is correct. She sits, which is not a crime. What about the Big Issue sellers who, because they are located at such short intervals can’t possibly expect to sell lots of magazines? Is that not, in reality, licensed begging?

I’m increasingly and daily frustrated by the evidence of inadequate policy on the streets of my local area. Using shops and local transport involves negotiating sometimes three or four more or less vocal homeless people/people claiming homelessness/desperate poverty. I’m not heartless, I do give to Emmaus and Centrepoint but I’m tired of feeling wretched and guilty about this issue. What is being done locally to address it and what can local people do to further solutions?

@Cato51 and @Michael - there’s a balance to be struck here.

What other people do in the privacy of their own homes is definitely unsuitable for discussion here. What people do persistently, in public, on our local streets, is different. By their own actions, beggars make themselves a public interest subject.

Some beggars are genuinely needy. Others are petty criminals, and it’s in the public interest to know this. Otherwise our well-intentioned handouts are funding local organised crime.

Personal speculation (about violent boyfriends etc) crosses a line, as far as I’m concerned. It’s just a bit salacious, no matter how well-meaning the discussion is. And one other word of warning - with serious crime that might go to court, we have to be careful not to prejudice the trial (well observed by @Sandinista on a previous topic)

But reporting the facts of what happens on public streets is a valid topic of conversation here IMO. Particularly when it helps local people make informed choices about who they might give their money to.

I’ve been thinking about this topic quite a bit recently and particularly in light of the specific issue. I want to address what I think are two general misconceptions that I am reading here and in other similar topics.

First is the issue of homelessness. You do not have to be a rough sleeper to be classified as homeless. Many charities such as Shelter work with the “hidden homeless” or people who are in wholly unsuitable or insecure accommodation. These people have often been rough sleepers and will likely at one point be so again. Let’s not get bogged down on whether someone may or may not have a shelter to lay their head at night. They are all vulnerable people in need of a helping hand.

Second is this preconception that it is bad to give beggars some money. There are some charities and local authorities who strictly advise against but many do not. Charities such as St. Mungos or Centrepoint believe it is a matter of personal choice.

A spokesman for St Mungo’s says they respect people’s wishes to help when they see someone, by buying food, a cup of tea or giving them some cash – but it’s the long-term help that will really make a difference.

Paul Noblet, director of public affairs at the charity, says: “Donating money or food is always a matter of personal choice, but the most important thing is that young people who are sleeping rough get the help they need as quickly as possible."

Paul Noblet is with Centrepoint.

So I’ll put my hand up in the air. I sometime give beggars money. Having lived in London for 30 years, having worked in the past with homeless charities, having friends who still do I feel my judgement on people in true need against those who professionally beg is quite good.

Its a personal choice and one I’m quite comfortable with.

Sometimes I also engage in conversation with the individual. I recognise this is clearly not for everyone to do but it an be helpful. It certainly can help understand circumstances and certainly does away with the need for speculation.

I’m grateful that Sgt Biddle and his team are taking action on vagrancy in Forest Hill, but I also hope their efforts will focus more on those individuals which obstruct our streets, or threaten our community through words or acts, or in the case of this bike person, are acting fraudulently.

Thanks for your post. It’s well worth reminding people that ‘homeless’ is not precisely the same as ‘roofless’. I too sometimes give money, sometimes food or drink, sometimes just something to read, but I can’t profess that my judgment on whether I’m giving to someone ‘in true need’ as against a ‘professional beggar’ (is a Big Issue seller a professional beggar, with the negative connotations that has? I feel they are - not necessarily through any fault of their own, but maybe because the organisation is licensing many more pitches than could possibly be needed to sell enough copies to keep body and soul together ) is accurate or not. At the moment of giving, I’m generally just trying to quell the horrible feeling of guilt and misery at my random good luck against someone else’s random bad luck. So sod all use to anyone really.

What actually is the help that people need to get them off the streets and into safer lives? Don’t the hostels offer any kind of referrals onto to other services that might help provide support for health, work, access to permanent housing? I’m sorry if I sound naive but what use is issuing an order against someone to prevent them from sitting in the street or underpass if they’ve nowhere else to go during the day?

A few weeks ago a lovely respectable lady that lived near my shop kept coming to ask me for advice as she was being evicted from her home & didn’t know what to do.

I advised her to go to LC at Laurence House with all her paperwork to prove she would become homeless on a specific date, she came back to tell me (with a lady that was also trying to help) she done this but they weren’t able to help her.

A few days later the lady that was helping her came to tell me she had been evicted the previous day & that she had sat on a bench with her at FH pools & late in the evening she contacted Streetlink & they picked her up & found her accommodation.

Maybe they are the best people to contact if someone is genuinely homeless.

http://www.streetlink.org.uk

Along this line, there is an individual who positions himself right outside the entrance of the Coop on the South Circular. This is an instance where the actions of a beggar become a public obstruction. Their choice of language can also be intimidating.

A couple of days ago I asked staff in Coop if they had taken any action to remove this person. They said there was nothing they could do, surprising as I assume the area is privately owned by Coop. I asked if they had contacted the local police but all I got was a shrug and a clear indication this was not something they would pursue.

As a private business are they not able to seek help with this type of antisocial activity?

I think they are more than able to seek help, but probably choose not to, probably the constant rotation of staff there, with only a core few being permanent not helping.

I have to agree, his position right at the door is annoying, but he is one of the passive ones, so other than a trip hazard, he isn’t a bother.

The Lady featured in some posts was back in the underpass yesterday saw her at 14:05 and again at 17:10 so assume she had been there for several hours. Always smiles and says hello very tempting to offer help but given previous posts would that perpetuate the problem.

She seems to do stints there. Have seen her arrive and leave within half an hour at times. Hard to tell at times how long she has been there.

My point was she was there on two occasions, she may well have been leaving or just arrived back, however, unlikely.
More to the point it is a shame she cannot be helped, as sitting in an underpass is no way to spend ones days.

Other posters on this forum I believe know her or have interacted with her as have the police, one just hopes she can get the help she needs?

I hear you, maybe just offer food at first then take it from there.

I would love to help her, but if you can’t for any reason I think it’s best to let her know you care, this should build up her self esteem hopefully for the future

Unfortunately if you can afford to smoke and use a mobile then difficult to see food would help. Perhaps next time I see her I will ask how I could help but sadly no financial donation.

Ask if you can help by contacting these guys.

http://www.streetlink.org.uk

Sadly if no one wants to accept help we can’t do much more than this

I was just pointing out that she is sometimes there for very short periods. Maybe just as a time out from it all.

Like @Pauline said, if she doesn’t want help, can only leave her be. Can’t read people’s minds, as much as some would like to, to help her with what she needs.

A post was split to a new topic: Homelessness in London

This is absolutely not the place for any debate or discussion on the reasons for homelessness in our society today. Please feel free to take wider discussion to Politicos (if indeed there is not already a thread there on the subject).

Unless anyone has anything specific to add to the OP, I think we should move on now from this thread, as I am conscious it is concentrating on one specific and identifiable person (or two, if we’re counting Bike Man). If anyone wants to start a thread on the wider of issue of begging and beggars in SE23, that would be welcome.

Just as a genuine continuation of this thread, noticed this posted by our locals.

There was a chap begging outside the Coop about 20 minutes ago.

And now.

Sods law eh. I guess if a pattern is identified it will be easier for the police to have a word.

Perhaps they are also following Perryvale Police on Twitter…

I’m on an Overground northbound train at the moment, and a guy is doing the rounds, “I’m desperate, nowhere to put my head down tonight, haven’t had a meal in days, just need a little help. Any help gratefully received”

A lady offers him a bag of crisps. “Ah … nah… crisps?” … guy refuses the offer, shuffles quickly down to the next carriage, where he’s handed cash (what looks like several pounds) by well-meaning but hapless benefactors. No doubt he’ll make several hundred pounds a day doing this.

@anon5422159 Remember we’ve been given a number to text the British Transport Police to report this sort of thing: 61016

I did actually come here to find the number, but by the time I’d got it, it was too late, and the beggar had exited the train.

I know drivers have important things to focus on, but if they see a beggar doing the rounds on their train, they ought to make a warning announcement as a matter of course.

I put the number into my phone in readiness.

Can drivers see this activity behind them?

Good call. Just done the same.

From our local train expert:

I put the number in my phone as well a few days ago.

Perhaps he’s on a health kick.

After the umpteenth time witnessing similar, I actually sent a text to 61016 the other day and they responded immediately asking for a description of the individual with a follow up text asking for specific station/train times (so they could identify the train, I suppose). I was quite impressed. Not sure anything actually happened but at least I felt like they were doing something.

I must say, the incidents of this have increased very noticeably over the last few months.

Well done for taking action mate. Like you say, simple enough, and responded to.
Time for everyone else to get that number in their phones.

Is this unique to the Overground? I can’t recall a time recently when I’ve seen a beggar on Southern Trains.

I’ve never seen anyone begging on Southern but then again, I travel on the 06.45 train to LBG. I suspect it might be a tad early.

Perhaps it’s the open design of the overground trains that attracts beggars? They’re not confined to one carriage between stations.

Out of interest, I just saw one of the mentioned persons in this thread floundering along Brockley Rise with a big bag of takeaway. #justsayin

There on a lady who puts tissues and a note on the tables on Southern, very occasionally someone with a guitar.

I’ve been on a train when the woman comes along with a packet of tissues for each one of us, but haven’t had the pleasure of the guitar yet! It’s good to hear though that the transport police react quickly when contacted.

Today- Chap with dog in the doorway of ‘superdrug’ FH, for at least 2 hours and lady in subway for about an hour.Must say neither are begging just say hallo!

The tissue lady is normally during the week, saw a couple of people pay her for them but as infrequent traveller cant say how often she is around but have seen the guitar player on the ginger line

I once saw the bloke you mentioned here give that dog an almighty kick, which was really disturbing. When he saw I’d seen him he smiled and wished me “a good day, darlin’.” What’s the police’s position on homeless people who are seen to mistreat animals, @SgtBiddle?

That’s an awful thing to witness Fran

Homeless or not animal cruelty is never acceptable and I think the RSPCA have the powers to step in and help if its a continual behaviour toward the animal.

Guy begging outside Co-op now, I still see the lady in the underpass. It doesn’t appear that the tools/policing are very effective.

I personally think it’s a big issue for the area, but I can see from this topic that not everyone agrees.

I thought the guy with blonde hair outside Superdrug’s had been given a job as a chef in a pub?

Noticed the same, back outside the coop

I saw her on Sydenham High Street, outside Tesco, the other day. A man came over to her and she gave him a sandwich from her bag. It was a packaged sandwich, from a shop, so I don’t know if it had been given to her by a well-meaning person.

What has happened with the young blonde guy-has the job fallen through?
If so thats very sad

3:20pm today Police interviewing vagrant outside Sainsburys FH after a quick shop he was gone to be found with two others in the soon to be Superdrug from the cardboard and bedding looks like a long term sit in.
Then the lady in the under pass who was there around 12:30 and again 3:25 as I walked through unfortunately a guy around 30’s decided to spit the contents of his drink at her swore told her to f off tried to spit more drink she ran off up steps with him at the bottom cussing. He looked rough and I think drunk and certsinly not someone I would like to tackle on my own.

Suggest you tweet each instance to Forest Hill or Perry Vale Police. I have a couple of times and received a response.

No twitter account, from what I have seen its a source of anguish, potential secutity breaches and career limiting.

Only if you are honest police.

I’ve texted that LTP number to report beggars on the overground too, and they not only texted back right away but called to follow up. Impressive - they clearly take it seriously.

Every time I read this thread “anti social bird watching” springs to mind

I know he is not a beggar but there is the religious preacher chap! Now immortalised by you tube. I found this funny when he meets the chap who challenges him.

What should we do then, when sitting minding our own business on the train?

A powerful message to those who give money to beggars (including the story of a homeless person in Lewisham killed by drugs funded by our cash handouts):

Over the last few weeks have seen the lady in the underpass on most occasions that I walk that way. As my timings to and fro are fairly random asume she is sitting there for extended periods. Did see someone give her a packet of crisps, always says hallo never asked for money nor does she have a ‘donations cup’.

This New Statesman article was a response by the Chief Executive of Thames Reach which was criticized in this other New Statesman article by freelance contributor Matt Bloomfield.

The position preached by Thames Reach is not unanimous among the charity sector with different advice coming from charities like Crisis.

Homeless charity Crisis said the rise in homelessness was due to the shortage of housing and ongoing effects of the economic recession combined with government policies.

It said those who beg were often struggling with “extreme poverty” but the decision on whether to hand over money was a “personal” choice.

A charity spokesman said: "Whether or not people give money to beggars is a personal decision, but we know from our own clients how important a simple act of kindness can be to those in desperate circumstances.

Well, what a stark difference between a charity that uses its position to make partisan political statements (breaching Charities Commission rules):

…and a charity like Thamesreach that is honest about the humanitarian consequences of handing cash to the homeless.

So when someone asks an indignant rhetorical question like this:

…be sure to ignore them and instead, do have a think about what the homeless do with (your) cash. The numbers speak for themselves.

Perhaps you can advise how you determined this was partisan. Crisis has been consistent in its criticism of government action on homeless people regardless of which party has been in power… Labour, Coalition or Conservative.

Perhaps you can also point out how they have breached Charities Commission rules? For others they can read government guidance here.

It’s there in black and white in the document you linked:

Anyway, this topic isn’t in a politics category so I’m not going to get any further into this here.

I have no doubt that drug use among homeless people is high. But ThamesReach’s assertions are without substantive study or research and is based on only anecdotal evidence and a Met Police result from a limited and narrow study.

I am uncertain why Thamesreach’s opinions are any more or less valid than another highly respected charity such as Crisis.

Ah. The crux. Correct if you believe a charity like Crisis and all the good work they do is purely to support a political party. I see no evidence of that. Other parts of that guidance to quote include this starting from point 2.

• campaigning and political activity can be legitimate and valuable activities for charities to undertake

• legal requirement: however, political campaigning, or political activity, as defined in this guidance, must be undertaken by a charity only in the context of supporting the delivery of its charitable purposes. Unlike other forms of campaigning, it must not be the continuing and sole activity of the charity. (Section 3.5 provides a fuller explanation.)

• there may be situations where carrying out political activity is the best way for trustees to support the charity’s purposes. A charity may choose to focus most, or all, of its resources on political activity for a period. The key issue for charity trustees is the need to ensure that this activity is not, and does not become, the reason for the charity’s existence.

• charities can campaign for a change in the law, policy or decisions (as detailed in this guidance in section 2.4) where such change would support the charity’s purposes. Charities can also campaign to ensure that existing laws are observed.

So if a charity is established purely for political purposes. Not allowed. Charities engaging in political campaigns or political activity. Allowed.

Getting back on-track with this topic - regarding cash handouts to beggars - let’s respect the advice of the local police. They work with charities. They know more about our local beggars than we do.

Is offering money to a homeless person something which can get me arrested?

Pro tip: don’t incriminate yourself on public forums.

I’m sorry. If that is directed at me I thank you for the strange advice unless of course it was meant for a wider audience and not for me.

I’ve asked the police for verification of their tweet. I’ve been unable to fine anything in statute which would criminalizes someone’s charitable activity in this way. If there isn’t then they should correct their statement.

“Charitable activity” would be helping the homeless out of their situation.

Funding a drug addiction is not helping anyone except the local gangs and drug supply chain, and that’s illegal, no matter how pure your intentions are.

If a company or bank is funding the supply chain of illegal class A drugs, they’d be in hot water straight away. We call it “KYC” in the financial world (“know your client”).

When you hand out cash to strangers without knowledge of their situation, you risk negative local consequences. The local police are well informed about these local consequences - in fact they’re probably the best informed people around.

So if the police tell you not to do it, don’t arrogantly tell them to retract their advice. Take their advice.

They advised it was a criminal offence which I think we all know was incorrect. Or are you of the opinion it is alright for the police to give misleading information and thereby incriminate themselves in a public forum?

Not interested in playing games here. I trust the police. They do a hard, thankless job and they know what they’re talking about.

Happy to continue over PM.

There are no games here. You posted a tweet from the police which clearly indicates that anyone seen by the police giving money to beggars could be arrested for this.

Their intent may be very good and their advice well thought out. But if that specific advice is wrong then they should correct it. It is a very dangerous game when an authority such as the police makes up criminal law even though their intent may be good.

I trust the police on many matters too. As do many other people. So their advice should be trusted when delivered in a public forum. I wonder what the reaction would’ve been if some other publicly funded official had tweeted out misleading information?

ETA… If the police respond to my tweet I’ll let you all know.

I’m pretty sure the police tweet is meant to say that begging is an arrestable offence rather than giving to beggars. Hope they do clarify as it’s poorly worded if so…

Probably. Its amazing though the furore which an appeal for clarification is meant with. Here and on Twitter I’ve been called arrogant and accused of criticizing our police force.

My limited knowledge of tweets is that they are word count restricted? Therefore like emails sometimes the wrong inference can unfortunately occur.
Begging is a criminal offence and figures suggest only 1 in 5 beggars are genuinely destitute. So whilst maybe not an offence for the giver, supporting an illegal activity is anti social.

Yes it is. But a lot of homeless people do not beg from their sheltered locations (e.g. under a rail track or in a doorway). Yet people should be able to make their own judgement as to whether money or food given will be used to see them into a shelter for the night, a service the homeless person often has to pay for.

And a good argument that when noticed, a follow up to clarify the meaning of the tweet is a reasonable request rather than a cause for criticism.

In the meantime you can support the bbc4 Christmas appeal in conjunction with st.martins in the field by texting ROOF04£5 to 70070 to make sure your £5 are well spend

I believed my comments to be informative not critical? Perhaps a perfect example of the incorrect inference being assumed.

Apologies Wynell. My comment was not directed at you. In fact i thought it aptly illustrated my argument. No offence meant.

No offence taken, differing opinions/ideas are what keeps me interested and open to a change of view.

That is what I had assumed too. Begging is an offence, but I have never come across giving money to a beggar as being an offence. I assume what the police meant was to remind people that giving money to beggars could be unintentionally encouraging the beggars to continue to commit an offence themselves, although they could, of course, mean that anyone giving money was colluding in the offence of begging, or somethimg similar. I don’t think anyone is suggesting that the police are wrong, it’s just that some of us were not aware that giving to beggars was an offence and are seeking clarification, because the actual message was unclear.

Would it be possible to have the full list of priorities please? Are there minutes available of the meetings where these issues are discussed/decided?

Hi,

From our Twitter Feed:

New #PerryVale Ward promises (5/9/17)

1. Moped enabled ASB & Crime
2. Motor vehicle crime prevention
3. Begging

Set by our Ward Panel

Our ward panel hold any minutes. We do not take or retain them. I will ask if they are happy for them to be posted at our next panel in January ‘18.

SgtBiddle

Further to this, you can also email 61016@btp.pnn.police.uk (was just informed via a response to a text to 61016). That way you can include photos.

I have never seen a beggar in Perry Vale, where do they usually beg?

Thank you for taking this action, @SgtBiddle. I know it’s a sensitive topic, and to understand it fully requires the knowledge that our local police have access to.

From my PoV, some beggars have access to a home and/or support, but still beg, and in doing so, divert generous public donations away from genuine homeless and needy people elsewhere.

It’s absolutely right IMO to deal with these instances on a case by case basis and in the public interest.

Community Protection Notice vs Public Space Protection Orders - are these similar or is the Poole model more punitive.

Indeed are both or is neither a step too far ?

Noticed a number of police talking to the usual lady who sits in the subway this morning, not sure what was going on but all looked serious. I have such mixed feelings about the issue, with the begging on the overground pretty persistent and a new guy sometimes sitting at the opposite end of the underpass.

There were 3 beggars in the space of 10 mins on the Overground last night. I don’t understand why the London transport police don’t do random patrols on it. It should be easy to catch them given the sheer number of beggars.

Agreed, there is usually one on any journey I make after 12noon, in either direction - often the same beggars so they must be making enough to make it worth them coming back. They are canny enough to stop begging at the first sight of a high-viz jacket and usually get off to catch the next train. I had an experience recently where one beggar was on the same Overground then Jubilee train, and he wasn’t happy when I called him out for asking me twice in the same journey for money.

If it wasn’t lucrative, people wouldn’t beg illegally on public transport.

In my opinion, the blame for illegal begging on the Overground lies squarely with those who sponsor this activity by donating.

A driver made an announcement the other night along the lines: “a career beggar has just entered the train. He is not genuinely homeless. Please do not give him your hard-earned money”

Train drivers shouldn’t have to do this, but it seemed effective in this case as the beggar stepped off shortly afterwards knowing he wouldn’t be able to dupe people out of their money on that train.

Signage and announcements should be more common, and we should all think twice before sponsoring illegal begging.

Not all beggars are addicts. Not all beggars are being exploited through modern slavery. However there is a good chance our generous donations fund organised crime - and therefore donating to strangers who beg illegally is morally questionable, in my opinion. Far better to follow police advice and donate to charities that actually help people off the street.

The problem is that people do feel guilty. I have never given money directly, however have once given food as had leftover and the guy was asking for food over money. I am sure there are lots of different ploys but you only recognise them if you regularly travel on the Overground. I certainly do not like travelling in the evening as similar to other people’s experiences have had several people begging on the same train. Once you have seen the same people several times you become more immune to the tricks. Frankly announcement by train driver, whilst not their job, does raise awareness with everyone. Due to this thread I am more aware of the regulars and also now know that many are not homeless. I agree more has to be done to raise awareness for everyone, certainly those travelling on Overground regularly. Where to report and who are the persistent beggars. More information could be displayed at stations and in the meantime certainly announcements by train drivers can assist. When you have someone crying in front of you it is v difficult to make judgement whether genuinely in need or not.

I don’t usually give to beggars on trains, but this morning, a woman walked down the train asking for money with the most horrendous, weeping burns down her legs. The result, apparently, of her sleeping bag being set on fire. Whether or not that was legit I don’t know, but what I do know is that in her case, there was a very definite need for some sort of attention, and I couldn’t let her go before giving her anything.

It still seems to be regular. But one thing I’ll say is that the BTP text service seems to be pretty effective.

I dread coming home from my late shifts at work on the overground (usually between 9.30 and 10.30pm) due to the beggars on the train.
I don’t want to sound hard, I’m not a hard woman and give regulary to genuine charity collectors
However one of the beggars is very aggressive and actually quite nasty.
the others seem to have a very similar very polite humble script.
I feel bad ignoring them because they look in need of help but after a long stressful day working on my feet all day in retail in the west-end I just want to sit down and zone out and get home.
Not be made to feel mean by not handing over my hard (very hard) earned cash.
And the aggressive rude man who begs makes me-a lone 60year old feel downright nervous.

Send a text to 61016 stating what station you passed last and what train you are on (eg 18:15 out of London Bridge) - the beggar may not even know you are doing it.

You can also email 61016@btp.pnn.police.uk

She’s there every morning again now.

A post was split to a new topic: “Injured Cyclist” Beggar

Possibly connected?

I can’t understand how they’ve only just “stumbled across” her if it is the same lady, since she’s been consistently there at the same times of day for weeks. Maybe it’s someone else less prominent but more aggressive?

Back this morning at rush hour, saw two people hand over money in the time it took me to walk down the stairs into the underpass.

There have been beggars on a number of southern and overground trains that i’ve been on recently and i’ve noticed that they linger a long time in each section of the train, even if no one is getting their money out, which they didn’t used to do. On a recent overground journey, I actually thought the guy was going to ask me point blank for money. I wouldn’t say he was threatening, but I certainly felt more harassed than I have previously done, so I sympathise with what you are saying. I give annual amounts to three homeless charities, and I have been known to give the odd pound out in the street, but to be honest the number of people on the trains and on my way from the station to my office means it’s neither practical, nor, I suspect, helpful to give to everyone who asks me. There are definitely more beggars on the trains than there were a few years ago.

In the last two days I have been approached by two different men asking for money in Sainsbury’s car park (the one in Sydenham). One guy just kept hanging around next to my car as I was putting my shopping away.
We do give money to charities as well and I often put food in the food bank donation boxes, but as you say it’s just not feasible to give money to everyone who asks.

I’ve been approached a few times in the last week by a man begging in the Sydenham Sainsbury’s car park too. He kept hanging around as I loaded the car. I wouldn’t say he was intimidating but it did make me uncomfortable. If I see him again I’ll ask the store management if they are aware if it.

Funnily enough I thought of you today as I parked in Sainsbury’s car park. As I went back to my car and started to unpack (I was parked by the key van as had to get some keys done) a man approached me, got very near and asked to help me unpack and take my trolley. I just said no straight away as knew from the above what he was up to but he proceeded to try. I just kept saying no and walked away. Reported to police. Horrid experience.
He’s quite well dressed so be aware.

Sounds like the same guy. Thanks for reporting it.

I fail to see how what this woman - she’s called Stefanie, by the way - is doing that can fall into the definition of begging. OK, she sits under the underpass wearing a blanket, but she doesn’t actually ask anyone for anything. I used to give a bag of chips whenever I saw he and she started eating them straight away. She gets around, though, as I’ve seen her sitting outside Crofton train station.

Could be considered loitering, which is an offence. But yes, she’s not much trouble to anyone.

That said, low-level anti-social behaviour on the high street is bad for shops (which are not faceless businesses, but are the livelihoods of hard working local people), at a time when they face huge pressure from e-commerce, and high business rates. We need to do everything we can to make the high street feel welcoming and appealing to shoppers - which means ensuring beggars get the help they need to get off the street, rather than cash handouts which encourage them to stay.

Even that would be excessive. I can see what you’re getting at with regards to the impact overly aggressive/demanding beggars could have on local independents, but she literally just sits there, staring at the opposite wall of the underpass and doesn’t utter a word unless offered/given food or money. Hardly something to cause you concern on your way to grab whatever you need from Dartmouth or London road.

I’ve seen her in central London too in Victoria street, which gave me a big surprise! I’ve also seen her helping people with luggage/buggies up the stairs in the underpass. And she has never asked for money.

Hi Chris, We’ve been told in the past by the local Police that she has social housing accommodation and access to benefits. She has also been offered several other avenues of help to stop her present behaviour including, but not limited to being repatriated to her family in Italy, and has refused them all.

I see she’s back again tonight. Not sure how effective the community warning is.

I was carrying 2 tubs of 4 litre paint the other day. I was struggling. The lady asked if she could help & carried one for me. At no point did she ask for any money. We walked past numerous people who acknowledged Stephanie.

She was not sat on the high street.

If you think that somebody, potentially homeless, undermines the success of the high street is a worry.

Once again I find your opinions offensive

She always gives me a nice smile. Makes my day.

If you have a different experience to the rest of us, I’d recommend you share this at the Forest Hill Ward meeting where local people help set the priorities for policing.

At present, local people have listed begging as one of their top three concerns for police to deal with. And the police have co operated - especially in cases where beggars are not genuinely homeless, and have refused help - like this one.

But if you and @robin.orton feel beggars bring something positive to the high street, why not make that case at the Ward assembly, where it can feed into local decision making.

Bump into her 2 or 3 times a day and has never asked or hassled me for money. Have seen her help people out plenty of times whether it’s helping people out with their luggage up and down the stairs or minding their belongings. Any attempts by the police to warn or arrest her is a waste of resources in my opinion.

That’s understandable, but as has been observed repeatedly here, this woman is not a beggar. She does not ask for anything. I personally feel that any discusssion of real concerns with begging be separated from discussion of this person.

She sits on the pavement all day and accepts cash from strangers.

The police know her situation better than any of us.

As the police specifically state, she is a “persistent beggar”

image945×538 231 KB

Concerns with begging go beyond the personal interaction aspect. As I’ve said above, she’s harmless to local people on the street.

But for me, the concern is where the cash we give her ends up. And how much harm that cash does to local people as a result.

I agree, that is a concern. I just feel that conversation about begging in our area in general would be better separated from discussion of this one person. As many local people have had very positive interactions with her, it is natural that they will want to defend her, and the wider issues don’t get a proper airing.

For me, I’d like to keep her in.

I’m glad that the lady has been the subject of this discussion from time to time because it reminds people to be open-minded about kinda-odd people as they can often surprise you in a good way.

100% agree with that. I’m glad to understand more about her situation and hear from other people about the sort of person she is. It’s important to challenge our stereotypes about people who don’t necessarily fit in to the expected norm.

My concern is where discussion of beggars in general uses her as an example. Discussion gets bogged down in debates on whether she is or isn’t a beggar, and really relevant issues on begging and antisocial behaviour don’t necessarily get addressed. However, on reflection I don’t want to ask the mods to start hacking about threads to remove more general discussion from this specific topic, as that just gets messy. So I guess I’m just flagging this up as something to think about, to advance discussion more generally in a useful way.

No-one sits in a grotty underpass to pass time. She’s there for money and/or food, regardless of whether or not she has conventional shelter to return to. However, she just sits there in silence without bothering anyone. Just another one of Fozzy Hill’s characters.

15 posts were merged into an existing topic: RIP Stephania

On several occasions I saw at least 3 men crowd around her taking what money she had collected. I think that she was controlled by somebody or someone and I’m positive that those men were Eastern European. I saw the flowers on the way home tonight and can’t help but wonder if it was a tragedy that could have been prevented.

RIP Stefania

That’s sad to hear but not entirely surprising, given what several people said, earlier in this forum topic.

Above all, it reinforces the points made by the local police and by experts with long careers helping the homeless:

In this case, this poor lady appears to be a victim of modern slavery. And the supply of money given to her by well-meaning people kept her on the street, away from her family in Italy.

If the supply of money ceased, this vile form of slavery would end and lives would be saved.

Stefania’s two children might not have lost their mother.

With respect, I implore everyone to stop handing cash to homeless people and instead give it to the charities trying to help them off the street

Was there any response to this? Does anyone know when/where the next meeting is, who is on the panel, what the process is? Anything would be appreciated.

I think it no longer is an offence