New coffee shop at market research stage

Hello Forest Hill. I’m a local resident (Forest Hill/Catford borders) looking to open a small coffee shop in the area. I’ve lived here for 7 years yet have found myself drinking amazing coffee in coffee shops all around the capital except by my home. So I want to change that. The plan is to offer coffee from a local independent roaster alongside cakes and sandwiches but also a simple grocery element. Fresh bread has won the twitter polls unsurprisingly. I am updating new twitter polls every few days which take a second to click on so please join in and help me shape the business to your requirements. I am @BlytheHillShop. Expanding your comments and suggestions on this forum would be so helpful and might ultimately be where I gather the most data, so let’s get the discussion going and I’ll assess what kind of appetite we have. Thank you and I look forward to your comments!

I don’t want to be a wet blanket but do you think that another coffee shop is what we need or want round these parts ?

I live in hope that a proper greengrocer might appear. I would use it, and I am sure plenty of others would be delighted to see one start up.

I think a proper coffee shop near Blythe Hill Tavern would be fab; there isn’t a decent one nearby as No 41 is a good ten mins away or you’re then into Catford. I for one would go 2-3 times per week. Fresh bread eg sour dough would be so nice to pick up for the weekend. A coffee on the way to the swings etc. It would also further improve that parade of shops with the new Moon Lane Book Shop on its way. I think it’d be a really good thing. If you look at places nearby like Brockwell, Dulwich, Peckham more and more shops are becoming coffee shops and they are always very full

Hello and thanks for your comment. What area of Forest Hill are you? I ask because there is a cluster of cafes around the station with the only specialist being St David. St David is excellent but it’s not accessible for anyone with a pram. I’m not looking to open near the station but towards Catford where there are no independent coffee shops. A greengrocer like the one in Herne Hill would be fantastic, but it will have to compete with the large Sainsburys.

I’d welcome one near Blythe Hill Tavern, and would be a regular!

I can answer from the perspective of someone much closer to the Forest Hill station. As there is a good choice there I’d be unlikely to travel to your part of FH solely for coffee. I’d be more inclined if you were to incorporate a proper bakery with proper white loaves and bloomers. My artisan bread needs are satisfied by Aga’s Deli on Dartmouth Road with the added benefit of great cheese and charcuterie along with decent coffee.

Aga’s Little Deli is fab. Got a sour dough there on my way back from swimming with my baby this week. However I live on Woolstone Rd (by Kilmorie) and Aga’s only works if I’m going by. This would be much more convenient I think for a lot of those this side of the tracks probably from Colfe road East.

Thanks for your feedback. I agree that Forest Hill centre is well served so there would need to be something that differentiated me to draw in that catchment. Is there anything you wish you could get in Forest Hill that you can’t currently? Doesn’t have to be food. Thanks again

Hi there. Yes but we’re in a different market to them in terms of product and customer experience and will be more than 10 mins away.

I totally agree about local coffee and would love to see a place there… my first instinct to what I think you are suggesting is that it might be too early though - there are two Morley’s on that strip.

What sort of drinks are you thinking offering? If it’s something like Monmouth/Notes etc then I think your challenges will be:

• making sure the drinks are really of this standard
• that a very high proportion of high st coffee shoppers really don’t care for this kind of coffee

Either way useful info might be:

• Look up @ PerlantandPress - It’s a (yet to be launched) speciality coffee van which I believe may be making appearances at Blythe Hill Fields
• Look up @ SophNJimsCoffee - another coffee van which serves morning rush hour. They just moved from Catford Broadway to right outside Catford Bridge station and I imagine they have picked up a ton of customers commuting from the huge new development there (Catford Green).
• Another thread here Coffee in SE23

If the coffee was really good in your place I would probably visit once or twice a week (when working from home or passing on the way to the park).

Have you found a premises yet, and if so where.

I can’t really give constructive feedback without the exact location.

As has been mentioned, I think we are covered in FH with great Coffee Shops such as @StDavid @TheArchieParker and such.

A bakery or a greengrocers in FH would certainly be a massive plus

@Mr_Robin_Banks Ever thought OAP’s might enjoy a night out clubbing too - I’m not far off 50 & can still cut some moves bro

Great post @Beige

Some more related topics:

• PerlantandPress - Let's talk about coffee! - an update
• SophNJimsCoffee - Coffee van, Catford Bridge Station (SE6.life)

Thanks for your feedback, really helpful. To comment on your points:

Yes the strip is run down but has a good pub and an award winning children’s bookshop and community space (Tales on Moon Lane) is opening next month - does this change your perspective at all?

In terms of the standard of coffee, I aim to be up there with the best neighbourhood coffee shops (using my knowledge of the coffee market and the roaster I have lined up) however I share your concerns that if you’re a Costa person you just won’t get it or care for it. So that’s a risk and based on the comments I have across various channels I’m not 100% confident the micro market will appreciate the technical differences to choose me.

It will be interesting to see what Perlant and Press offer as they will be close by and I love the idea of them in the park. In fact I have always rooted for them.

SophnJim will be successful due to location and I’m not competing with that.

So I guess what’s important for me to understand is that if you do appreciate quality coffee then why would you chose me over someone similar in quality. What can I offer that makes me more attractive. That would be so helpful to know.

Thanks.

The pub’s been there for a while and little overlap with coffee market, but agree the bookshop is a great sign. So maybe, slightly. Would love to be proven wrong.

Bread has been a pull for me in the past, but not to the extent of choosing between competing establishments. To answer your question I would choose between places, in rough order, based on taste preference, location, service, ambience and the cake offering.

And that’s a big BUT in my book.

I’d’ve thought that this catchment is very good for starting-up a small coffee shop if the business’s overheads are low enough for it to survive on a low turnover while the shop finds its feet.
It will probably take good few months of trial and error with bread and cake offerings etc before you get to the position where you’re not throwing unsold product in the bin but, hopefully, you’ll be selling enough of the good old high profit margin coffee to pay the rent until things pan out - and I hope they do! Best wishes.

Good post - someone has to make the first move, and hopefully they would be rewarded. I also suspect might coffee shops are often some of the first shops to open when an area improves.

I’d add that in central FH it felt like the coffee shops were the pioneers (along with other notable independent traders).

Yes, so, a big shout out to the old stalwarts of 5yrs and more -
BUNKA
FINCHES
STAG & BOW
St. DAVIDS
CANVAS and CREAM
SUGAR MOUNTAIN
MIRROR MIRROR
Well done guys and thank you for staying for us!

Yes, yes, yes! I live on Vancouver Road and I would absolutely love a coffee shop I can walk to easily with my toddler. We try to go to the Phoenix Cafe but often don’t have cash on us and I get caught out by the opening hours. It is the one thing I wish for nearly every day living here. Going into Forest Hill feels like a bit of a trip sometimes, as does Catford. I also find the coffee shops in FH pretty inaccessible with a pushchair. The service in the newly opened Smallworld coffee is wonderful but the location isn’t pretty when the traffic is heavy. Combined with the new bookshop, and proximity to the playground, I think you’d be creating a lovely little hub.

Thank you. The units are a little overpriced given the location and their size so it’s important I can secure a better deal to keep costs down while I find my feet. I plan to start with a smaller range and slowly build up. On that note I was considering opening at weekends only for the first month and then expanding the opening hours as the polls suggest weekends would be the most popular times. Does this align with how you see locals using a shop like this? Also what hours do you usually pop into your coffee shop of choice? On wastage I plan to donate to a local homeless kitchen but of course I want to minimise waste to start with.

It is worth thinking about what you can do after school as Rathern is very close by. My Jami in Honor Oak does things after school and get a lot of coustmers from Stillness school.

I would definitely visit such a place. I live on Cranston road and often just want to take a stroll for a really decent coffee, especially on a weekend if husband is working. FH obviously has the lovely St David’s and Archie Parker, but a little far for just a wander and often very packed.
Love No.41’s coffee but the strip you’re talking about isn’t much further and if it offered something different I’d go for sure.
Bread is a big enticement for me - whether just bread or full on bakery.
I really like Brick House in East Dulwich, I think they strike a great balance of being informal/ welcoming and doing few things (crucially, the coffee and bread!) excellently. I’d love to see this kind of thing start to pop up. Granted, it’s not yet a fit to what else is there - but Tales on Moon Lane opening is a massive coup for that strip and they surely must see the potential…

I’m a landlord so might be able to help/advise if you want.

I think weekends would definitely be busiest. However I wonder if a Friday too as lots of parents that work part time have Fridays off?

I know you want to make it baby friendly, would there be room outside for example to create a secure buggy store so you don’t necessarily have the place filled with buggies but parents have somewhere under cover that you could put them?

And if you became a Local Greens collection point too ( a very good local veg box type service that’s just reached the area from other parts of SE London) I would visit even more often!

What a good idea

I think you could get trade from people visiting Blythe Hill park. I’ve often been up there with my kids and wished I had a coffee to warm me up. On the downside you may have people from the park wanting to use your loo as it’s the one thing Blythe Hill is sadly lacking! There are some exercise classes run from Blythe Hill too so that could be another market.

Hot chocolate / babycino are good options to offer too for those with kids (and I would guess good profit margin too).

For take-out coffee, I keep reading about the environmental unfriendliness of disposable coffee cups so would you offer the option for people to take in their own travel mugs?

I really like the coffee at No.41, especially when the lady who runs it makes it (sorry I don’t know her name!). Probably my favourite coffee in Forest Hill.
The cafe at the Seniors does nice food (lovely eggs florentine), and is friendly, but I usually stick to tea there as I am bit fussy about my coffee…
I think offering bread on a Saturday morning could bring in locals who want to pick up a morning paper from the newsagent and something for breakfast/lunch.
My one bit of advice is advertise your opening hours very clearly, and stick to them! We all understand that small businesses can’t compete with the 24 hour opening of larger chains and I don’t expect that, but there’s nothing more frustrating than making a special visit to an independent shop and finding it closed unexpectedly.
Good luck

There are lots of creatives in Forest Hill/Dulwich and Sydenham. I think you should make it as interesting as possible. There is nowhere for little ones to go. I would love to assist if you want some creative input. I am a documentary film maker and won an award for art curation for Southwark … good coffee nice vibe is always good. If a café is dull and the food and coffee is poor you never go back.

Yes I agree and the bookshop will be doing after school clubs which will mean parents picking them up later. It’ll be helpful to see the pattern of activity from the bookshop to guide my opening times.

That’s definitely true about Fridays and perhaps Mondays too. A lot of places are closed on a Monday. I’d love a buggy shelter but I’d then be getting into the realms of pavement encroachment which requires consent from the council. One to look into though. Secure hooks to loop a pram lock through could be less intrusive perhaps? I know that doesn’t solve the wet weather problem.

That looks great and would solve the problem of a lack of fresh fruit and vegetables here. I think they have quite strict refrigeration requirements (understandably) so one to check with them when selecting a display fridge.

Great idea - just saves your new shop being cluttered when the buggy doesn’t need to be inside. If it’s raining, rain covers on top. Or if the premises has a back garden that would be even better

A coffee van will be appearing at Blythe Hill Fields very soon so one to watch. Do you know what days the exercise classes run and how busy they are? Agree with your point about the loo, perhaps a necessary evil or even an opportunity.

I will welcome/encourage travel mugs.

Yes consistency is key regarding opening hours and I will need to be very clear if I’m to adjust them as I find my feet.

Thanks for your feedback and let me know if you have any other thoughts/annoyances.

Thank you. I would like to involve local artists, the Catford Arts Trail highlighted how many there are hidden in the immediate area. I’m originally from Brighton and love the variety of shops and cafes there. So I would hope to inject a bit of that here.

Thank you - is there anything in particular you’d like to see?

Definitely need somewhere on ‘this’ side of FH, as we’re severely lacking somewhere within walking distance to grab a coffee/lunch/fresh sourdough etc.

Keep it simple but great.
Best coffee shops in the area by a mile:

• St Davids Coffee House - great coffee (especially their) Cappuccino , delicious food offering using great quality ingredients. Their Avocado Bacon Sandwich says it all - great bread, brilliant bacon and perfect avocado.

• Blackbird in East Dulwich - as above + also great baked goods. Oh, and they sell some of the best bread around.

As the father of a new baby, i know that there’s about a million mums who would like somewhere on ‘this’ side to hang out at too, as they’re all currently at The Honor Oak, No.41 (very average food & drink).

@PriteshM I’m with you on @StDavid and Blackbird. Have always found @No41Coffee very good, though - they are really taking coffee quite seriously and it’s also a good model for atmosphere and customer service, so if @BlytheHillShop could recreate their vibe, it’d be great!

I’m a big fan of St Davids but if you can get your pram up the steps you certainly don’t feel comfortable with it if it’s busy. My concern with the unit I’m looking at is that it’s quite small and would potentially frustrate customers (with or without prams). I initially started out thinking it would be a boutique little coffee shop that sold bread, cakes, sandwiches and nice store cupboard items (olive oil etc) that was equally laptop and pram friendly should you wish to hang out for a while. But it seems that having a decent space to sit in is a priority. I think the space could work but I’m keen to hear more from people as I’m not tied to it. I spoke to Jonnie’s 2 who are actually looking to sell but it’s too expensive. I would welcome a propper brunch place replacing them as it would make the area more of a draw and wouldn’t necessarily damage my business if I create a good enough niche, but I’m not holding my breath.

Ahh, fair play. Still reckon a small deli-type shop would be brilliant, even if it was just takeaway bits. A bit annoying having to go to Blackbird or Jones in Brockley for my bread and bits. Honor Oak Provender had great potential, but they’ve really let the service and product quality slip.

Sourdough bread and cakes and pastries are a definite so don’t worry! And sitting in, just need to think about designing the space to maximise it. Jonnie’s 2 is A3 use so essentially a restaurant, whereas most units are A1 so you have to be more creative with the food offering on site. St Davids might even have been A1 to start with.

A1 use doesn’t only restrict the food per-se, it also stipulates that there is a significantly higher turnover on takeaway compared with sit-in. So, a simple coffee & sandwich bar taking more money on sit-ins than takeaways should be at least part A3. Another consideration to bear in mind is whether or not the landlord would allow such a change of use.

Thanks - your clarity on the differences and thoughts from a landlord’s perspective would be helpful because A1 is unclear and I’ve discussed it with many people (lawyers included). Feel free to message me direct on this.

For me, good coffee, bread and sandwiches would fit the bill!

Regarding the A1/A3 thing, as it’s a small premises and you’re intending to sell bread and other bits and pieces, the business model could be similar to Aga’s Deli, which seems to do a lot of takeaway trade. I’d be surprised if you need to go down the A3 route, which makes things a lot easier for you.

I think it would be great if you regularly changed / rotated the types of cakes on offer, as the biggest problem I have with local coffee shops is that I get sick of the cake offerings and therefore stop buying. Agas used to have loads of new types of cakes in regularly but now they seem to have stagnated which is a shame… You should also never use the same cake wholesaler as your competitors - I swear I’ve seen the same chocolate and Guinness cake pop up in several places in HOP/ FH, which is not what a customer wants from a small independent.

Just to prove that you can’t please all the people all the time…

I’d say that sometimes it’s nice to have some things remain - the cherry frangipane at Brown & Green in Mayow Park was brilliant and I was very sad when they stopped selling it (and told them so…)

Some of us fear change.

Ha. An older coffee topic just popped up and reminded me of something that would drag me away from Forest Hill.

I would love a good alternative to espresso based coffees. I would kill for a really good quality gravity driven drip filter coffee using the best quality beans. It doesn’t have to be a hario but something like that.

St Davids do pour over,don’t they? I remember talking to them about why it cost £3.50 / cup (answer is more coffee and server time used than espresso drinks).

I really love this idea! As a young couple (without children) we moved to Marler Road last year and have found as many others have mentioned, that walking in to Forest Hill can feel like a bit of a trek and also Catford isn’t my favourite place to be yet… So somewhere that actually does decent coffee and tea, fresh bread, would be so welcome. I was excited when I saw Small World Coffee opening… but it’s a bit average and not the most exciting place to sit inside. If it had good decor and was a nice place to sit in on the weekend, that would be ideal. We find ourselves bypassing FH altogether and going to ED for places like Kanella & Co. Good luck!

There are 2 Costa, actually

No, Not another yuppy posh bloody coffee shop , bit short of those in SE23.!!
A sensible priced fresh bakers would be my personal choice, Not cheap and nasty supermarket fodder
nor Borough Market prices . Thanks

I meticulously make myself a cafetiere every morning so I’ve been thinking about that and the pour over options. The latter is a lot more time consuming to the server but if you think people would only order that if they were staying in then it could work for sure. Let me know what you think.

Hi there. I agree about Small World, took so long to open and looked promising (I had a lovely wrap) but I returned and was disappointed. Fantastic location too. I also jump on the 185 to Dulwich a lot! I’ve had quite a lot of feedback from parents so would love to hear more about your preferences. Thanks.

Hopefully I can offer both yuppy posh coffee and sensibly priced quality bread . There really isn’t much the Catford side of se23 so I don’t believe the market is currently saturated. If you have any other thoughts please let me know. Thanks.

Use a DIY pour over, easier for you and it is , as my 13 year old points out, on trend. Just let the customer do it for themselves.

@BlytheHillShop Another one for the pantry would be perinellisalami.co.uk - AFAIK Giuseppe is looking to stock some local stores with his excellent cured meats.

In terms of filter/brew coffee I’d say the most simple & consistent option would be a batch brew:

This gets rid of you having to be involved heavily and delivers a good product if done right.

Hi, I disagree with what others have said about over saturation of coffee shops in se23, this end of the se6 border is lacking in a decent one. In regards to opening hours, weekends only is probably smart, although as some others have mentioned, Fridays could also work well for you. I’m also someone who has Fridays off, so it would be nice to have somewhere reliable on my doorstep to visit.
I know it’s a completely different kind of area, but Romeo Jones in Dulwich Village is a good balance of deli/bakery & cafe and manages it all in a relatively small plot. They also for a time started selling milk when the local corner shop closed.

We’re on Elsinore Road and would love the lower-end strip to get spruced up with independents!
41. and Aga’s are by far the best places for food and coffee in the area (not a fan of St Davids personally).

As a very local Creative Director and Agency owner, would love to extend my support by seeing if you’ve considered your branding for the new coffee shop - with Small World a great example of how not to do it!

Look forward to following your progress. Good Luck!

Makes the take away cups recycled material and zero plastic lids and straws please.

Out of interest, what is it you don’t like about St Davids? It’s as useful to know what people don’t like about a place. I haven’t considered branding yet but feel free to message me the services you offer. The shop front is really important to me as is branding the takeaway cups and bags etc (considering any restrictions when using recyclable materials). Thanks.

I’m really keen on high quality batch brewing and wish it was a more popular choice. I’m wondering whether I can persuade people of the benefits of this choice over and above espresso based drinks.

Hello again! I’d like to know what you think of Lolos in Perry Vale as a location vs a unit by Moon Lane Books on Stanstead Rd. Personally I think Stanstead Rd is a stronger area as the footfall is greater and the bookshop is expanding its classes, plus it’s further from any other coffee shops than Lolos. However I haven’t been able to progress with either of the two Stanstead Rd units I was working on due to landlord restrictions. I’m planning to leaflet the shops there but would love to hear your views on Lolos as the shop is quite cool inside. It’s very awkward in shape but charming with outside seating. Thanks.

Lolos was a disappointment as it said Patisserie but sold no bread or cakes the sandwiches were basic, the coffee basic. I did suggest to the owner that decent serviettes, brown sugar and a little class would not cost a lot but would elevate it from a simple cafe.
I think the saying build it and they will come applies, good luck

Helpful to know what it used to be like thanks. Was it just the menu that put you off? The old menu was still in there and it looked poor, plus there’s a cafe a few units down doing that kind of thing. I’m planning something quite different and will definitely be selling fresh bread. It’s A1 so no propper cooking which is limiting but plenty of places manage it. Groceries and wine are on the agenda.

Sounds a lot better, I had a chicken toastie and coffee had to ask for a knife, the serviette was single ply looked like it was torn off a kitchen roll they only had white sugar no music and definitely no patisserie.
I was polite and suggested the improvements and have to say initially it was busy as people explored the new offering but quickly declined. I am aware of 3 young mums that were put off by my report and thats the market to go for.
Shame there are no guarantees in life but you only have to look at the business of Brown&greens and Canvas&cream to see the potential.

I tried very hard to love Lola’s but I never knew what its USP was. It had a few fresh loaves - lovely but they only had a handful every day. Then there was the fridge / counter with maybe three or four lacklustre sandwich fillings. No patisseries that I remember, despite that being what they called the shop. It was just a strange mishmash.

I think something like a smaller version of The Teapot in FH could do well there - good takeout paninis that can also be served in with a bit of salad, decent cake sold by the slice etc. There isn’t much room for sitting in, though, so I think most of the trade will have to be take out. I would definitely use a shop like that to pick up a panini to take home after a trip to the surgery or pharmacy. There may also be trade from customers of Hair Hecktic. Add a decent selection of fresh bread and I’d make a detour.

ETA - As in your last post, the Teapot also has a small selection of delicatessen-style groceries and I’ve picked up enticing items a few time on impulse.

We live very nearby. I thought Lolos was a good location but sadly their offerings did not meet my local expectation /need. Good location because footfall is not bad - parade of shops around it is well used, busy GP surgery and pharmacy nearby, hairdressers etc as others have said. Good location because nearest good coffee locations would be Mayow park or Forest Hill station/town centre imo. Also don’t underestimate how may people walk past every morning on the way to the station - would some pick up a quick takeaway coffee there if available, quick and excellent?

Quite a nice street corner though, inside and out, just uninspiring food and drink. Sandwiches were handmade but very basic (tuna mayo/egg mayo/cheese pickle etc), all right for a quick sandwich on the hoof, but again not near the standards of local cafes. I don’t remember them having a proper coffee machine? I tried hard to like the bread but it was nothing special. There is a local market for great bread - visit the German bakery van at the German church on Saturdays for example.

If you set up something much more contemporary (as @RachaelDunlop said) I’d hope you had a decent chance of making it work in that location.

I tried hard to support the place (Lolo’s) because of its convenience to my home. It was good for popping out and getting a takeaway sandwich or quick coffee, when working from home for example, but when I didn’t want to go as far as the town centre.

As others have mentioned, there is a busy and quite a suprisingly useful parade of shops there, complemented by the doctors and dentists surgeries. These, along with the bus stop immediately outside, create lots of opportunities for selling to people who are “waiting around” - they don’t even necessarily have to eat in. I have always felt that if someone could get the food and drink offering right, along with the decor, and get the pricing right (for a predominently residential area) then it could work.

Finally, if you go for it, for what it is worth I will give it a go, and if you’ve got it right, i’ll be in there as often as I can be!!

I thought they convert it to a one bedroom flat according to the planning they put in but this might have changed allthough it looks like work has started

The detail of the comments above in the idea of a decent offering to Perry Vale says a lot I think. It’s an area that has a lot of customer base, but untapped potential.
Choices for people in my catchment (Cranston road) for a lazy stroll to get a nice coffee are quite limited right now. No.41 is great, but choice of where to stroll to and an offering of fresh bread is what definitely makes me interested in the Lola’s location.
Good luck in your research!

I’m living on a Vancouver road and totally agree with the comments above the area near Lola’s is crying out for a coffee shop/deli I find myself venturing to mayow park/FH/HOP as there is nothing within 10/15 min walk of here.Lots of footfall in that area and it is currently completely untapped with zero competition!Good luck!

Could be an excellent location with great footfall - would definitely visit. Good luck.

Lived local for 30 odd yrs can remember the shop originally being a little Post office?
Then it changed to a little corner bakery &cake shop which for the size of shop sold a decent range of Bread,Rolls,Cakes, Just simple fresh produce.
They also had a display fridge with meats & cheeses that made up rolls & sandwiches mainly from what i remember for local Garages,workshops , businesses, Just simple ,reasonably priced food.
Think the trouble was someone took it over & tried to turn it into what i would call a posh cafe , Which by the sound of it is what you wish to do ?
Can we just have a nice sensibly priced bakers back please ?
If you want your 5 pound loaf ,Moka Fat white thingymebob Go to Borough Market or Local farmers market ??

I live nearby to Lolos and found that the food and the coffee was poor. The bread was also not great for bakery.

With the right proposition, I think that it could be good site - there are no decent coffee options nearby and I think you would pick up good parent/child traffic as it’s on the rat run to Kilmorie. For a coffee I have to go to the station. Forest hill is crying out for a decent bakery (and greengrocer) so if you were to accompany your offer with baked goods as well I think you could do well. I would certainly visit.

The big breakfast cafe is good - but from what I understand of the business you wish to launch My sense is that the two businesses would thrive together as the two would not directly compete with one another.

I think a spot near Moon Lane Books would be ideal… however something of a biased opinion given I live nearby!

I’m biased as I live nearby but I think the area is calling out for coffee/ deli/ bakery as you suggest. I also think the paved area outside could be used well with some nice planting, seats etc.

I live near Lolos too and would love a decent coffee shop/cafe there! As others have said the previous offering didn’t really work- but good quality coffee, bread and patisserie would be a great addition to the area!

Need breakfast options!

So my two pennies worth. I think if you had a straight choice, the site by Moon lane books would be favorable. You have the book shop which is getting good footfall and attracting people to the area who otherwise wouldn’t have reason to use that row of shops - a coffee / bakery there would work in both shops favors. You also have the people walking to Catford station from that end of Forest Hill who don’t really have anywhere else on their way to get a coffee from in the morning. Also, St Dunstans, Rafern and Kilmorie schools are all close by and you could attract the drop off crowd from them. I’m reasonably close to Perry Vale but it just feels a bit out of the way.

Be interesting if the ‘researcher’ commented as there has been a significant response since initial request.
Have we put you off, are you still undecided are the beans in the grinder?

I agree the Lolo’s site would be great. I did used to frequent there between dropping my daughter off at school and waiting for different play groups to open for my son, but the offering was very disappointing. I still used to go though because the location was so convenient.

I would imagine there would be lots of parents in a similar position around who would use it for late breakfast/mid morning coffee, or maybe lunch afterwards. There is no other competition in that area at all!

Thanks for all your comments and sorry for the delay. It does seem that it was the offering that was its failure in the past which is something that can be addressed by a new business that does its research. I am looking to go fairly high end, but not overpriced for the sake of it. There are plenty of low cost cafes and shops between Forest Hill and Catford and I believe that offering something smart and refreshing adds to the mix rather than takes away what’s already here. The businesses that succeed find the right balance. The footfall in the morning isn’t bad it’s just not as high as on Stanstead, especially where that meets Catford Hill, however morning footfall is just one factor and some of my observations show that it’s completely irrelevant in certain locations. I am drawn to the bookshop location because it gives a reason to visit the area, but there are reasons to visit Perry Vale too. It’s a tough one and both areas deserve a decent place to stop by for sure. As far as I’m aware there is nowhere decent to have a drink around Perry Vale - would serving a small selection of wines and beers to drink on site appeal?

Have you thought about the closed Perry vale restaurant opposite the station which might be the best if both worlds, might be to big of a space but you certainly get the footfall there and if you over bakery style products it will attract people from all around

Hi there, that’s definitely too ambitious a site I’m afraid - I understood it was still open for pop ups but could be wrong. I’m surprised it hasn’t worked as I thought it was pretty good. That said I went when it had just opened so it may have gone downhill. I’m specifically looking to bring back to life an empty shop.

What about then the old Water fish and veg shop on Perry Vale?

I’d still visit if at Lolos. It’s equidistant from my house, but I did like the idea of picking up a coffee on the way to Blythe hill fields.

Imho one of the advantages of the Stansted road strip is that you might be able to draw a younger crowd (at weekends) from the catford green development, particularly if selling third wave coffee.

I like the idea of picking up a coffee for the park too but now the van is there I have less of a need.

I think third wave coffee would appeal at both sites.

I only caught Lolo’s on its ‘comeback’ opening, and agree with the comments above regarding selection and service.

I’d also like to add that it seemed to have irregular opening hours and didn’t open early enough to catch commuters going up to Forest Hill (either by foot or via the bus stop opposite).

The kitchen area also seemed out of proportion with the amount of seating and staff it had there (I only ever saw one person serving).

Perhaps a hatch on the side for ‘walk through’ coffee + pastries early in the morning would be a cool and quirky thing to catch commuters without running out of space inside.

Another premise, if available, would be where Crafty Beer used to be opposite the station entrance on Perry Vale.

Hi there, I would really welcome the kind of good quality coffee shop you’re suggesting on Stanstead Rd around the Blythe Hill Tavern / Moon Lane Books area. We live very nearby and I think this area is crying out for a decent cafe along the lines of No 41. In particular, we have found there is nowhere on this side of FH that serves a decent weekend brunch, so I think you could do decent business on that if you marketed yourself well. And there are lots of young families in this area (which is exactly why Moon Lane have arrived) so I think easy pram access and a baby change facility would get you lots of daytime custom from mums and NCT groups. A small, simple play corner would also be a big daytime draw if you could spare the space, along the lines of what My Jammi and Phoenix Cafe have done. It doesn’t need to be big but it would draw families in. Those are my thoughts anyway - but I think you could do really well on the Blythe Hill stretch if you got the offer right. Good luck xx

I am also a woolstone rd dweller and agree we are seriously need of a decent cafe down this way! Preferably with a good brunch offering. There are a lot more young professionals living in this side of FH nowadays due to reasonable rents and house prices and I really think Catford is on the up given the new developments we are seeing. Good luck with the research. Really excited by the prospect and agree with others that Blythe Hill is a great location.

Ps. Homemade cake and artisan bread would be big draws for me

Hi there, just a bit of an update- the agent informed me Lolos is being taken off the market but will go back on with another agent. The landlord won’t allow cooking so it would be limited slightly but many coffee shops face this restriction and succeed. Nonetheless I have decided to focus around the Blythe Hill Tavern and wait for the right unit. I was working on the old Options barbers but the landlord went quiet and may have found another prospective tenant. Johnnie’s cafe is a great spot but the owner is asking a very unrealistic price for the business. I’m prepared to wait for the right place but it is a little frustrating.

Sorry, but I can’t think of any local cafes without a hot meal option which has succeeded I think you would be massively missing out if you couldn’t provide brunch at the weekend - the mark up must be huge.

Also - provided that Provender in HOP has truly closed, that could be a great spot to try and get into.

My business will be more like the General Store in Peckham Rye, but with more seating/a coffee shop environment. La Bouche on broadway market is a good comparison. The option of an A3 (full cooking) licence is preferable to enable flexibility in the future but not essential. The Provender does not allow cooking, just reheating, it’s quite a common restriction and a grey area that even the council can’t define. It’s £60k to buy the lease of the Provender so not for me unfortunately. Honor Oak is getting what looks to be a great new brunch place thougn. The owner is really nice and it all sounds very promising.

Yeh, good luck with that!

I am a a potential customer of this coffee shop. I do know exactly what yo mean by emphasising quality. In FH there is only 1 coffee shop that deserves to be on the London coffee map and it is St. Davids. Unfortunately it is punching above it’s weight with regards to the range of meals it provides and how many customers it serves.

Having lived in FH for a few years I noticed that despite the area changing and more people seeking inner-city quality there may just not be enough market for this type of cafe. This is based on 161 example which quickly changed from a coffee place to a local boozer. It seems that the customers in FH prefer low price over quality and do not yet see the difference between On the Hoof and St. Davids.

Also another consideration is Costa opening their store. They are, in my opinion, the most decent chain that’s out there that could server you a nice cup of coffee on a lucky day. It often boils down to the quality of individual team in the store.

Taking all this into consideration I would be very careful with investing into new coffee shop in FH.

Good luck with your business plan whatever you decide to do!

Completely selfishly but I would love a coffee shop/cafe near BHT as it’s close to where I live (as I said, selfish) and really enjoying popping down to moon lane books for a browse, a cuppa and cake would go down a treat. I’m a weird breed that doesn’t like coffee - nice teas for me please and gluten free cakes/biscuits/bread would be very welcome please.
I know my boyfriend would welcome a place to buy coffee from on his walk to the station (rather than the van at the station). Would like to see a discount for those with reusable cups please.
Unit I was thinking of was Options but just saw your last comment - Shame! Good luck!