Aggressive begging in South Road/Church Rise, Forest Hill

An aggressive beggar has been hanging around the corner of South Road/Church Road. He claims to want money for food and kept calling out after he’d been told no.

He is about 6ft, wearing a 3/4 dark coloured coat, a dark hat. He is white, thin face, dark hair. Looks and sounds like he is probably in his 20s.

I have seen him twice today (Friday, November 13) at about 1pm and at 3.55pm. I have reported him to 101 online.

This sounds like a guy who’s been pacing up and down Perry Vale a few times recently. He approached me as I was struggling with several full bags a few days ago and from my window I’ve seen him shouting at people who refused his requests as they walked away.

Saw similar sounding guy outside Sainsbury’s FH being very rude & aggressive to an elderly couple a couple of weeks ago. Telling them to give him money & not letting up. A few of the public witnessed it & encouraged the elderly couple to ignore him. He was intimidating them at very close proximity. Nice that people helped the elderly couple out of a threatening situation.
Shame if this guy is in desperate need, but very unpleasant for the people he is approaching.

Probably a junkie.

Just saw this post. It happened to me on Monday night. I had to go into the office on Monday and when coming home I was walking up South Road just after 7 pm. He asked me for money and I said that unfortunately I don’t carry cash and then he asked me for an oyster card and again I said I don’t have one as we use our bank cards to travel. He was very dodgy and wearing exactly what the poster described. This happened really close to the church. I was alone and actually quite scared and kept checking if I was being followed.

Same guy came up to me-Monday evening about 8pm I’d just left the station on my way home from work and as i was about to throw my mask in the bin he literally just ran across the road straight up to me really close taking me aback by coming right up to me In quite a deliberately intimidating manner and asking for money-I was actually quite scared being alone, it was dark and I said no sorry-started to walk away towards dartmouth road and he started shouting something and made to walk after me-I thought he may grab my bag because he seemed quite angry that I’d said no-luckily someone else crossed the road and walked in our vicinity and their appearance caused him to back off.
But he shook me up and I kept glancing behind me as I walked home in case he was following me still.
really scary actually.

We’ve been approached by this guy twice on Dartmouth Road when having lunch at outdoor tables before lockdown. He gets too close and doesn’t wear a mask. Angry if you refuse. He took offense at our eating. Happened once outside Archie Parker and once outside the Moustache.

Clearly has mental health/drug issues too.

I once had someone similar come up to me on the train during my commute and accost me for literally no reason. Came up to my face and started threatening me. It was terrifying. I reported him to BT police. This same guy was on my everyday commute and would get off at the same station as if he was going off to work. I saw him threatening another innocent commuter a few weeks later. It just takes one different reaction from a commuter for things to very quickly escalate. It was a frightening thought that this guy was able to roam amongst society… It wasn’t too long ago that we had that stabbing attack at FH station.

Has anyone got a response from the police?

Be interested to know whether there has been a response from police. It almost sounds as though, given how aggressive he is , it’s a 999 call that’s needed now. There are 7people on this thread who have had a nasty experience, one of who has also seen someone else having trouble and someone who has reported seeing him intimidating the elderly couple. It’s a shame that despite 9 incidents in total Just on this forum, nothing seems able to be done? Although I note he seems to back off if other people appear, so may be hard to catch!

I’ve tagged the Perry Vale and Forest Hill MPS Twitter accounts with the link to this thread so they’re aware although they do say not to report crimes on those accounts!

Thank you-As a lone female coming home late from work (I just got home 10mins ago) my experience last week has unnerved me especially as the streets are relatively quiet when i leave the station to walk home.
He’s a really nasty individual who is deliberately intimidating and confrontational

This guy has been stalking up and down Perry Vale most of this morning, shouting at people who refuse to give to him. Not quite sure what the best course of action is if he’s a persistent nuisance?

Perhaps call 101 and give them a description.

To report crime the Perry Vale MPS Twitter account advice is to:

call 101, tweet @MetCC or visit our website. In an emergency call 999

Just seen this thread but sounds like the guy I encountered yesterday afternoon at the top of Church Rise. He asked if he could use my phone, fairly calmly, and when I told him I didn’t have it on me he started shouting at me, all of a sudden. Before he started shouting I had stopped on street because I couldn’t hear what he was saying and I noticed he started looking around the street, and behind him, to see if anyone else was there. I found this a bit unsettling.

Gutted!

I saw a post from RAMBO and I thought - Great, now someone’s taken this bull by the horns!

I feel real sympathy for everyone who’s been confronted and unnerved by this horrible person because I’m sure it sticks with them and it can also have a disproportionate downer effect on a whole neighbourhood.

I hope the police will be able to catch this guy and work with the medics to get him into a secure unit until he’s in a fit state to come back into normal society.

To be honest having encountered him I didn’t get the impression he had a mental issue
But that his modus operandi for begging is to be deliberately intimidating (why else would you run up really close to a lone middle aged woman in the dark -literally right in my face and he wasn’t wearing a mask-ask for money and then proceed to follow and shout abuse until someone appeared nearby?).
He is aggressive and intimidating but I dont think he’s mentally ill,
Just desperate for money for his next fix is my guess.

My girlfriend and I bumped into this charming fellow a few weeks ago on the junction where Devonshire Road meets the South Circular, I found him to be extremely persistent and far less respectful of our personal space than any beggar I’ve ever encountered. I didn’t personally think there was a deliberate intention to intimidate us, just a persistent inability to accept my answers of no and walk away coupled with a tantrum which seemed more directed at his situation than us.

Either way this guy does need to be dealt with by the authorities but I do think his mental health is a core part of that.

Based on the fact that a lot of these encounters seem to be with lone people and that he seems to have an eye out for whether anyone else is around, it definitely sounds as though he is using deliberately intimidating techniques. Whether he is mentally ill or not I don’t know but as a woman who is often walking on their own in this area it would be great if the police were able to do something. I’ve never really felt uncomfortable walking round FH in the 12 years I’ve lived here but I’m going to be pretty wary now!!

Notifying the police via twitter. Hmmm. Someone do it and tell us what happens

Will people who have encountered this person (or something similar) please report it to the appropriate Police Safer Neighbourhoods Team. They each have a webpage and an online contact form (although I suspect the contact form is the same across the whole site - warning: it is LONG and requires a lot of information).

Perry Vale Ward (east of the railway line)
https://www.met.police.uk/a/your-area/met/lewisham/perry-vale/?introducingyoursaferneighbourhoodsteam=contactus

Forest Hill Ward (west of the railway line)
https://www.met.police.uk/a/your-area/met/lewisham/forest-hill/?introducingyoursaferneighbourhoodsteam=contactus

Crofton Park Ward (north of Stanstead Road)
https://www.met.police.uk/a/your-area/met/lewisham/crofton-park/

As always, in the event of an emergency or a crime in progress please call 999.

I once reported the bins outside the flats up the road where i live, being used as a drugs drop off/pick up point. Did it via one of those links. That was over a year ago. Still waiting for a response. I also emailed a certain police sergeant who will remain nameless, but who used to pop up on this forum now and again. No reply. I even sent a reminder a few weeks later. Nothing, Nada. I think we need to face up to the fact that there are no police really. Not for day to day anti social behaviour issues like this where law abiding folks are being intimidated on their way home or’ low level’ drug stuff and theft. If this was a hate crime then it would probably be a lot different. They are interested in all that stuff while it gets headlines and makes them look good.

And this is the reason why. I have worked in the ‘justice’ system for 25 years now and I can tell you with my hand on my heart that every word of this is true.

I have found it quick and effective to use twitter to DM the police on @MetCC. If people log things in real time, then even if individual concerns aren’t resolved, they are able to recognise a pattern of issues, and pursue the problem another day.

In what way have you found it to be effective ? I am not in any way implying that you are wrong. I am just curious.

I got a very quick response, asking for more details, then confirming they had logged my report. This is in contrast to using the non-emegency phone number; when I used the online form to report having been hit (in slow motion) by a car, I never heard back from them at all.

It is time effective to report, and know that you’ve done your civic duty in creating a formal record. This makes me feel better, knowing I have done the right thing, and hold evidence that they were properly notified. If something awful happens, and it transpires that they failed to act, then I can submit my evidence.

Yes, I agree that does sound a lot better than the 101 thing. Thanks for your reply.

Although it is good to see that someone at the Met responds to tweets (assuming it is “someone” who has responded as opposed to a “bot” of some description) I think what matters is whether anything tangible happens as a result. Something that makes a difference to our day to day lives. If the article is right that only 7% of reported crime results in a criminal charge ( and that is not the same as a conviction), then we have a great big problem on our hands. One that we can see playing out on our streets day in day out.

I can’t say I agree that the police systematically deal only with crimes that attract headlines. My husband is a police officer and it’s very hard listening to the extreme lack of resourcing and what they have to deal with. Picking and choosing cases? Simply not true.

I agree with you Nadia, they can’t be expected to keep us safe if they are not given the tools to do the job.

And the number of COVID related offences that have been created must have significantly increased their work too. But dealing effectively with this individual now would be better for residents and also better for him, if he needs professional help, so it’s a shame if resources aren’t available. To be honest I wouldn’t describe what I’ve read about him as anti social behaviour, given how intimidating he seems to be, but that’s just my view.

By definition, his behaviour is anti-social.
Don’t get me wrong, probably like you, I can sympathise if this guy has mental health issues, but intimidating and frightening people is unacceptable and he needs to be taken somewhere that’s better for him and for other people until he is capable of being civil in a public place.

What I mean is that I don’t class demands for money accompanied by apparently deliberately threatening behaviour as anti social, because while it is anti social, it’s not only anti social in the same way that the clientele from the pub at the end of the road urinating in my neighbours garden is anti social. My criminal law knowledge is too rusty to pin point precisely the offence that it might be . Begging used to be an offence under some 19th century mendicancy act or other, from what I vaguely remember, but this is more than just begging. this is intimidating people in order to get money and it seems even more than anti social behaviour. But I don’t know what the formal definition of anti social behaviour is.

Ha - I get it now!
And I apologise.
You were saying that it’s MORE than anti-social behaviour, which I totally agree with (but in this new WOKE and overly politically-correct society that we now live in I didn’t want to say what I REALLY thought about neighbourhoods having to live with this type of scourge)

You are both right. The thing is that proper mental health services are non existent in this part of London. All they do is give drugs. I know this because my partner is a local mental health professional. In addition, a member of my family had a breakdown and was admitted as an impatient. When she was discharged from the ward there was no help put in place other than being rung up now and again for a chat. A year later she remains on the waiting list to go on the waiting list for psychological therapy. Yes, you read that correctly, the waiting list for the waiting list. There is no proper help any more. Full stop. So the poor old police get lumbered with the people who would in the past get referred to properly functioning local services. The criminal law is not the right tool for dealing with people who have complex needs, but that is what we have been reduced to doing. It’s dangerous, inhumane and it’s not right. This aggressive beggar may have health problems or he may just be a villain who needs his collar feeling or maybe it is a bit of both. Who knows. One thing I think we do know is that given the lack of local mental health services to help him, and given the thinly stretched thin blue line, we had just better get used to this sort of thing.

Having encountered this person several times now, my husband and I have no feeling he is mentally ill.

Yeah, it seems like turds like him are being enabled by local virtue signallers who’re keen to be seen as ‘right-on’ when in actual fact they’re simply attempting to demand money with menaces. This whole ‘mental illness’ card needs revoking when they clearly have the presence of mind to approach those they believe to be weaker.

I’m not sure where your reference to ‘virtue signallers’ comes from; perhaps some folks just don’t immediately assume malice. And perhaps you could call these people some kind of optimist, or at worst naive, but I don’t think they are the problem here.

I’m no expert in psychology and I’ve never come across this individual but it seems to me that this individual’s modus-operandi fits the description of an opportunistic bully. He doesn’t make a direct threat but he implies it with additional harassment on refusal. He’s clearly targeting lone individuals who even straight goers like you and I would identify as potential targets if driven to it. He clearly preys on who he believes to be the weaker targets. Based on that whoever implies that he suffers from mental illness - in my eyes - is enabling such behaviour.

I don’t think it’s helpful or our place here to diagnose either mental illness or a crappy aggressive attitude – we just don’t know.

What we do know is that unfortunately we have to be vigilant around the areas flagged, (safely) look out for any neighbours we see being troubled by this guy and his cohort, and notify the police if we’re disturbed or concerned by behaviour we experience or witness.

Thanks to the people above who’ve helped out with a number of ways of doing the latter

I believe it’s less about being deliberately woke or virtue signalling, and more about people now having a more balanced view of what can be behind behaviour like this through a better awareness of mental health issues. Something which thankfully prevents them jumping to knee-jerk conclusions, especially in situations where not all the facts are known.

I’m not sure it’s ok for members of the the public to be threatened by someone even if it is because of mental illness. The fact is that if you demand money from someone by threatening them that’s an offence. Mental illness may be a mitigating factor but it doesn’t change the impact of that person’s behaviour, it just changes what needs to be done to address that behaviour.

No, it’s definitely not OK, and definitely not what I am saying. My comment is solely about people jumping to conclusions about the individual.

A friend is a councillor in Redbridge and said recently that much of the aggressive begging in his area is facilitated by gangs. They find vulnerable / addicted / trafficked people and drive them into areas where they think they will be most successful at begging. The beggars have strict quotas of what they need to ‘earn’ for the gangs and are encouraged to our aggressive tactics.

'Does anyone know if he is still there doing his thing ?

agree!

I haven’t seen him this week thank heavens!

Lets hope it stays that way.

I have to say it’s made me nervous to walk round that area - which is a shame.

I walk around that area every day, twice a day in the week and thank goodness haven’t seen him. Normally around 8/8.30 and 5ish. I will definitely call the police if I see him and will report back here.

Thank you that’s helpful intel about when it might be ok. I haven’t been approached by anyone either but I vaguely remember seeing someone who might have been him now I know about him but he never approached me. Either it wasn’t him or there were other people around. Or I had a really angry look on my face!!

A long time ago I bought one of those key fob things for when there were lots of muggings near me in Balham. That always made me feel like I was a bit mor protected. Worth thinking about as they are super cheap too.

Now you mention it, I think I have one Of those somewhere. The last time a bloke approached me late at night in perry Vale I was so angry I lost my temper and properly shouted at him. He backed off and walked away. Not sure that’s going to work with this chap though!!

TBH I would do exactly the same, make a huge fuss, scream and hope I’d be ok failing that run or if not hope I could defend myself - but I have never had to do that so I am probably quite naive and I’m sure in the moment we’d all act totally different to how we expect.

Often, though, I have two kids with me when walking. That is a really scary thought.

like this?

or like this?

or like this?

This one exactly

Personal Alarm 130db Personal… https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B076B4CLJ4?ref=ppx_pop_mob_ap_share

It’s very loud. Pin doesn’t come out by accident but is easy to pull.

I think the risk for me is that I’d go full on before considering whether it was remotely sensible. I get really angry when men approach lone women in the dark, asking for money. It’s so obviously an intimidation technique. But I think I would be better getting the alarm!

I feel very similar; hopefully he’s moved on. I did see police patrolling the road yesterday which I forgot to mention but was only in a car so could have been something else.

Well even a car patrol is a deterrent I would think so that is good.

I think it was similar to the bottom one, but clearly not as good because it went off in my pocket once! Maybe is hound get a new one!

Just to point out, pepper spray is classed as a weapon and very illegal.

Very loud personal alarm would work well or a whistle.

There is a UK legal “pepper spray” equivalent on the market.

Multi Farb Gel Personal Self Defence Spray - Red Dye - UK Legal Emergency Spray (3) BR1460 https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B07DPVJMH8/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_fabt1_qW3VFbM9Z80P7

Yes, that’s a dye. Pepper spray, very different. Trust me, I have had a taste of it

Yeah, hence “pepper spray”. That’s why it’s legal as it doesn’t contain the pepper spray element.

But it’s a good alternative deterrent to any potential attackers as it would hopefully confuse them and also mark them with the ink.

I think the advantage of the personal alarm over the whistle is that it requires two hands to turn off (which is a good thing if you want the alarm to be on).

I suggest that if you feel threatened, you go to the front door of a house that looks occupied and ring the doorbell. Ask them for help.

Depends on the homeowner. If someone rang my doorbell with a story about being intimidated I might think it was a scam… because I am a nasty suspicious person!! But definitely something to think about

Hopefully, if anything, locals who have identified themselves as fitting the criteria of his potential targets after reading this are taking an alternative route and thus denying him of an opportunity.

Sadly its not possible for me to take an alternate route to his patch-however ‘thanks’ to having to self isolate while I await the results of a covid test I’ve not had to go to the station for the past two days

Not possible now, but there is a really good Urban Krav Maga class held in the scout hut on bellenden road. This is probably the best thing you could do, if you feel vulnerable.

I think the best thing anyone can do if they feel immediately threatened is to scream as loudly as possible. This will unfreeze you the victim, suprise the other person and alert others which will also help you.

I think learning a martial art is useful thing for confidence and I’m sure I’ve read many years ago the more confident you are the less likely you are to be targeted…but it takes many years of practice to be able to use techniques you learn (IMO), and you may not want to use them. I’ve never studied Krav Maga which sounds both very efficient and terryfying. I’ve got my sons doing JuJitsu as the half-way house.

I ony studied for 3 years or so, but my old instructor would always say the best thing to do if not to fight if you can avoid it, which is what everyone above has managed. It’s been horrible and imagine very scary. Hopefully the person will be caught and removed from the streets soon to get the assisntance, in whatever form he needs it.

Couldn’t disagree more.

It’s not a martial art - its a functional self defence system which is, on the whole, easy to learn and quite effective- do some research… it’s often used by police and military.

Screaming is great if people hear/ and or are willing to help - which from experience they are not always - or someone doesn’t put their hand over your mouth or render you unable to scream… it could also wind someone up…

I am not saying that it transfers directly to this post but if people feel vulnerable - it is worth doing and worth knowing about…

Fair enough, I’m aware it comes from the Israeli forces. I agree it’s effective which is why I called it efficient.

There are alwsys dangers to any approach, doing nothing, screaming, physical etc - everyone has to make a judgement and I’m not claiming to be any sort of expert.

How many weeks do you think someone needs before someone can become proficient enough in Krav Maga do you think to learn the necesary techniques in this sort of situation?

Edit - @maxrocks I believe this is the Krav Maga @Luke30 was referring to. This link goes to their women specific page.

think you posted a broken link

Thanks fixed!

My Staff Sargent taught me the best way to get out of a sticky situation like this is simple. If you can, run away.

That too!

Yes that is the link so hope that answers the qs .

Thing is aged 61 I dont know how fast I can run and I do agree learning a Martial art is handy for every woman I think I’m too long in the tooth to be Karate kid!

It’s true that the two times this man approached us were in the daytime, but we didn’t feel he was going to do us physical violence. He was only unpleasant, stood too close, and took too long to leave.

I’m with you Max - I’m also in my 60’s but also have arthritic knees so running, karate or any other kind of martial art is definately not an option!

Yes that’s obviously V sensible but it makes me angry that I have to think about doing that!

This sounds like an individual possibly linked to the anti social behaviour that we’ve been experiencing in the Church Vale block. If anyone has time to send a quick report to Gillian.D.Pearce@met.police.uk outlining what they’ve seen regarding the individual that would really help her build a picture of what’s going on in the area around the block. Thanks everyone!

will do!

I’ve encountered this man today and yesterday, hanging around outside Sydenham School/the Bricklayers Arms on Dartmouth Road. So he’s still at it!

perhaps email the officer mentiond in Hollys post above

Yes, or tweet the police, that works well we are told.

Yeah - and today he had what looked like an office chair strapped to his back…?!

If he’s chosen to approach strangers in the presence of a large school then surely there’s ample CCTV footage covering what this fella is up to?

There probably is CCTV footage, but a very busy person has to be interested enough to view it and find the right bit, then they have to send it to someone else and then another person has to be motivated enough to do something about it, and what with COVID and then the human rights of the aggressive beggar and then the data protection issues there is the strong possibility of nothing very much happening at all.

In other words: Any arresting officer could be sent down for interfering in the rights of the “aggressive beggar” whilst the latter enjoys therapy at the expense of the tax payer.

No, the simple fact is that if he is committing an offence and public safety is compromised, then it supersedes any rights he might have under either the Data Protection Act or Human Rights Act regarding the use of CCTV. He could request copies of any footage in which he appears but it’ll still be used against him.

And what do you think the police use to identify, arrest and convict those who have committed offences at say, a football match or march?

I was being a mildly ironic, Mac.

It wouldn’t be like an episode of The Bill from the early '90s where investigating officers would have to manually trawl through hours of VHS tapes. Everything is digital now so I’m guessing it would simply be a case of entering a time and date into a computer to see if any evidence was captured during the time of any aggressive approach.

There was once a time in FH where this would have been nipped in the bud by a couple of the local lads having a word with him to point out the error of his ways; but I suppose that sort of thing is frowned upon these days.

Yes, especially as Sydenham Police Station was on the opposite corner to the Bricklayers Arms and the tower block behind it, instead of being a 125 room hostel for homeless and ex-offenders, (which I understand is currently the case), was full of new and trainee police officers!

There was also once a time where this would’ve been nipped in the bud by uniformed police officers walking the beat, but that doesn’t happen anymore.

I think that is the key factor. Bobbies on the beat, especially their own regular beat, took an interest in the local area and knew most of the people who needed watching.

How true.

Pretty sure I’ve just seen this guy 5 minutes ago on South Road by the flats near Christchurch. Asked for money for food. I explained I had no cash which he accepted, then he said he liked my dog and went off.

Saw him a moment later looking (or so I thought) as though he was going to try again, but he looked as though I’d taken away the element of surprise and changed his mind. He then stood with his phone, looking up at the flats.

Maybe 6 feet talk, solid build. Carrying a small rucksack.

There is another man also begging for money “for food,” which he mentions repeatedly, but it’s a different man. The one who is threatening was wearing a mask around his chin when we were approached by him. He also wore a dark hoodie and a hat. He is taller than the “for food” man.

Like I said a couple of weeks ago, given the absence of bobbies on beats we are just going to have to get used to this sort of thing, and with a recession on the way, it’s only going to get worse. We live in a high crime area, and I think we either have to suck it up, or move away.

This doesn’t sound like the one who approached me (and others). He didn’t look stocky but is slim (borderline skinny) certainly thin face didn’t have a bag that I noticed.
The one you mention hangs around the station car park and has asked me for money on the way into work (around 9am) on a few occasions usually has a bag, older than the aggressive beggar and hasn’t ever shouted or sworn at me when i’ve said ‘no’

Interesting. You remind me I’ve also noticed one who looks like Dominic Cummings on a bike. Regularly asks for money but he hasn’t been aggressive towards me, glad to say.

Just had a third run-in with this guy on Kirkdale at the junction with Dartmouth Road. He starts yelling when you say no and came after me. I told him that he was being discussed locally online because he was so aggressive. He shouted that of course he was aggressive because so few people were giving him money. I replied that he wasn’t getting money because he was harrassing people. He continued yelling at me and following us, and my husband thought he might attack me physically (I don’t think he would have).

I have written to PC Pearce as Holly suggested above. Thanks, Holly, for the email address.

I also just DMed @MetCC as instructed above.

I just got accosted by him , followed me down road. Another woman said she’ d been confronted by him at night and ti be careful Reported to police. REF CAD 4416.

I just got this reply from PC Pearce asking us to call 999.

"Thank you for your email. We are aware of this beggar but as yet we have not met him and do not know who he is. We have been out looking to find him and will be out again this evening . I am forwarding your email to the Forest Hill Dedicated Ward officer so that he is aware.

Should this occur again, please dial 999 so that police can come to the scene at the time the male is present."

Just got accosted 2 minutes ago at corner of Church Rise/South Road. Not so aggressive this time, a much sorrier sight.

I sent Oona’s message to PC Pearce and she says they are going out to look for him now.

I will also email. He was wearing a dark hat with earflaps.

Not sure this is the same guy. The aggressive one wears a knitted hat. There’s another beggar, not aggressive, who also wears a black coat. He always mentions he wants the money for food. I did send the location you mentioned to PC Pearce.

The guy I encoutered had a black knitted hat. He didnt shout but when I said ‘no’ and dashed across road he ran after me and wouldnt stop asking for money until someone else was around. There was another guy with a peaked cap/ hat and black coat who asked me for money for food one night (quietly).

I emailed when to do so was suggested here I haven’t as yet received a response though
But I doubt ringing 999 as suggested would be much use tbh as the police are overstretched in the borough and I for one wouldn’t want to hang around this chap ringing the police and waiting for them to arrive

Do you think more so than other Boroughs?

I remember asking a couple of questions at one of the local assemblies a few years ago, after a local police officer (or someone on their behalf) read out a list of recorded crimes in the Ward for the period: I asked how many of these offences had been cleared up. The answer was blank faces all round. I asked if anyone knows how police are apportioned across London e.g. per head of population, or square metres, or per Borough. Again, blank faces all round.

We’ve been told two things by government for the past few years: (1) crime is down (2) there’s going to be 20,000 extra police officers.

And yet the police seem unavailable for police work.

A post was split to a new topic: General politics in Aggressive begging thread

Who else remembers back a year or so when Forest Hill’s Safer Neighbourhood Team gleefully reported fining the woman sitting in the underpass for begging (peacefully), yet all we get in this instance is silence?

Why doesn’t someone actually try ringing 999 if they feel threatened. You may be surprised. My experience of the FH police has been, on the whole, very positive.

5 posts were split to a new topic: General politics in Aggressive begging thread

A post was merged into an existing topic: General politics in Aggressive begging in South Road/Church Rise, Forest Hill

The police told me yesterday that they were out looking for TAB and yesterday two case numbers were assigned, including to my report. I think that can be classified as the police doing something. I think not using 101 must be the answer. My case number came because of tweeting a direct message to @MetCC. They replied with a case number and then PC Pearce, whom I had emailed, said she and her team had just been assigned that case. The fact that several people complained in one day helped, and I gave the URL of this thread.

Yes, thats what I did as I couldnt get through to anyone on 101. Police said they’d send car out.

I always direct message to the Met as the response is so much quicker and you get a CAD number immediately.

We saw this guy at approx 5.45pm on Perry Vale, not far from the station. Called 999 as suggested on this forum. 15 mins later got a call from police who said they were looking for him. Haven’t heard anything since but encouraged by the response.

Turned up at 8.00pm in Dartmouth Road as we were unloading car. I’d say ‘persistent’ and ‘demanding’ rather than aggressive, but he’s quite well built and I can see why he could be seen as threatening.

I think he changes his behaviour slightly in different circumstances. A week or so ago, he demanded money from my wife on a darkened street with no one around, while his mate shouted obscene remarks from across the road. She was scared and is now nervous walking home from the station. Today, as I was there, he was less persistent. The guy needs to be taken off the streets.

From the reports on here, he definitely seems to be more aggressive towards people on their own. At the moment I am choosing my walking routes to avoid the places where people have mostly seen him but that’s because I can. It must be a worry for people like your wife who may have to do a particular route most days.

My experience and your wife’s would suggest that he is more aggressive towards lone women especially after dark (which is 4pm these days)
My husband was approached by the same guy near the station the other day (I know it was him the description fit) he asked him for money, my husband said no he wasn’t carrying cash these days and the guy just moved on-where as as I stated in my earlier post he followed me shouting at me until other people appeared nearby and then he backs off.
He’s a bully and a coward and he becomes aggressive to those he perceives as vulnerable or easier to intimidate

Probably because people are concerned they’ll get their phone snatched! Catch-22!

I gave him a right telling off and he continued to yell at me and follow me, so I’m not sure it’s just the vulnerable. Sure, I’m a short middle-aged woman but I can shout. And my husband was with me.

I wonder if the police ever found him.

I’m pretty sure this guy is STILL around. Sounds like my friend encountered him the other night on her walk home from the station after work (8pm). She’s not one to be messed with and luckily I think she scared him more than he her. But still not acceptable for him to be harassing lone people (especially women) walking home in the dark.

Was he wearing a mask ? One of the aggressive beggars in Crofton Park has started wearing a mask.

I saw the same guy – tall, black cap, asking for money for food – on Kirkdale last night when I was out for a run. Surprise surprise, he crossed a road to target a woman walking on her own. She gave him money so he was all sweetness, but if she hadn’t he might have gotten aggressive.

Does anyone know whether the police have been able to make contact with TAB yet ? We have all been talking about this since November last year. Either they have not got round to it yet, or whatever has been done does not work

Are we talking Covid mask or Michael Myers Halloween style mask?

it should be one of those highwaymans masks, that would be the most suitable mask for him.

Probably haven’t even bothered looking for him.

I really really hope that isn’t true, Swagsy.

We all know that the Forest Hill Safer Neighbourhood Team have a presence on this forum; the suspect’s offending pattern has been well documented in terms of timing, location and preferred targets which leads me to ask why the hell he hasn’t been stopped or deterred. All, and I mean all, of the legwork has been done for them. Speaks for itself, if you ask me.

Nonetheless, I would like to know what they have to say about it. looking back up the thread, PC Pearce is the name that is mentioned.

From the latest Forest Hill Safer Neighbourhood Team Ward Panel meeting, my understanding is that one individual was served with a community protection notice and has not been seen in the area recently. The police are aware of a different individual around Tescos on Kirkdale and are looking to identify him and serve him with a community protection notice if appropriate.

In general the local police are under-resourced and having to deal with additional responsibilities during the pandemic, so they might not have time to respond on social media or forums.

On the positive side, there are generally less crimes being committed in the area than a year ago (which isn’t surprising given that everybody is staying at home). Although the figures might not include crimes like having a party or driving to Durham - which were not illegal last year - it all depend how you count crime.

Is that possibly because less people are out in the area so not as many people are encountering him? It would seem he is still around the area.

In light of recently reported offences that occurred last night I’m guessing everyone is ‘gauging’ local crime on how brazen the offenders are against how interested the police are in pursuing them.

I hope that all incidents are reported to the police and if the description matches that of an individual known to them or served with a community protection notice, then they can take rapid action to address the issue.

Every report of incidents (to 101 for non-emergencies or 999 for emergencies) helps the local police build up a better picture and understand how effective their actions have been in dealing with a very small number of individuals. The Safer Neighbourhoods Team can’t be on every street all the time but with information from the public they are able to focus resources where there is a known problem, and I was pleased to hear a couple of weeks ago that they are dealing with the issues mentioned in this thread.

PC Pearce is in the Perry Vale SNT team (which is separate from the Forest Hill SNT) which makes sense as most of the original reports were taking place within Perry Vale ward.

@Michael Would I be right in assuming that the Forest Hill Ward Panel meeting you refer to above only covers things that have happened within the Forest Hill SNT area or does it include Perry Vale as well?

There is quite a lot of shared knowledge and cooperation between the SNT wards for Forest Hill, Perry Vale and Crofton Park and they report into the same sergeant. The individuals they deal with also move between wards.

Thanks Michael. That’s good to know.

At about ten past five this evening I was approached by a white English male who stood at around six foot with short black hair wearing what can best be described as the sort of waterproof jack you might find in a camping shop outside the front of Sydenham Girls school. He was asking for money and cigarettes. He was pretty persistent but after threatening to break his arm he scurried off towards Sydenham Park road. I carried on down Sydenham road. While I was waiting to use the cash point next to Southwood pharmacy opposite the Greyhound pub I heard the same voice rattling of a shopping list of things he needed including cigarettes and Lucazade. He was pestering a middle age woman who seemed like she was about to comply before I scared him off again.

Does this fit the description of who everyone is talking about? He didn’t start shouting as reported by some but was very persistent.

That sounds like the same man. When we encountered him he had on a black jacket with a hood and was wearing a black woolen hat.

On 13 February it will be 3 months exactly this topic has been running.

And how sickening is it that he’s still on the streets doing exactly the same thing.

Truly.

Reading through my last comment it comes across like I’m trying to sound like some kind of hard man. My initial threat only arose after he pulled me back by my elbow after first refusal coupled with the fact that I was soaked after being caught out in the rain.

I have this image of you in my mind as looking like “Bodie” from ‘The Professionals’

I wish. I’m 37 so think more along the lines of John Nettles’ Bergerac. All joking aside I was wet, off the road due to a broken down van and taken aback by some vagrant catching me off guard.

This is becoming common now. A man blocked my way in Catford telling me that he is homeless. I managed to walk round him eventually.

Yes thats the same chap that pestered me 100% certain

Yes thats definitely him-when I started walking away he moved as if to grab my arm and thinking he could be after my bag I sort of side stepped the movement and started to walk as fast as I could towards the crossing all the while with him shouting abuse as he followed me-as I mentioned before when some other people appeared on the opposite side of the road he backed off and disappeared (I think to the alley behind the betting shop near the station-because I’ve seen seen him heading down there with another man)

Continuing the discussion from Aggressive begging in South Road/Church Rise, Forest Hill:

The issue with this is that people not on this forum aren’t aware that this person has been flagged as a threat and has repeat behaviour and so probably wouldn’t think to report it. Beggars can have mental health issues and some of them (as a lot of us have probably experienced) can be quite angry/aggressive. I’ve shrugged off this behaviour before and wouldn’t have thought to reported it.

The public can’t be blamed for not reporting this person if they’ve only encountered him once. Surely instead the police should be monitoring whether this person is abiding by their notice and staying clear of the area. Clearly this person isn’t!

When does this get escalated? When this person’s confrontation turns physical and somebody gets hurt?

Not at all - just a normal person who’s reacted to their innate sense of injustice.
In certain circumstances that can lead to problems for you but, thankfully, it’s protected you and an unsuspecting lady in Sydenham.
So fair play to you - but stay safe!
(And thank you for what you did for that lady).

The police said to me back at he end of the autumn that they were aware of him and even that they were trying to find him. I will write to he same officer and mention this thread.

Someone started to approach me at the stanstead road end of church vale. I had already stepped into the road to avoid him simply as a social distance measure but he did speak to me. I summoned my ‘homicidal maniac’ look and walked past without engaging with him. He didn’t pursue it and went on down to Stanstead. I don’t think it’s the same guy because he wasn’t threatening, he walked on when I didn’t respond and had I not seen this thread I’d not have thought anything of it, but it’s evidence of someone else approaching people.

any luck with that ?

I wrote to the officer but got no reply.

Yes I wrote to a named female officer with full details last year but got no response or acknowledgement of my email

Seems to be a reoccurring theme here…

It does seem like it.

It appears that this individual is back in Forest Hill again today. Me and my partner got a barrage of verbal abuse for not giving him money. There was also another member of the public who offered to buy him food, to which he responded “I don’t want a poxy f***king sandwich”. I made a police report and I heard another member of the public also advising him that he had called the police, he responded with “call them, they won’t come anyway”. Something really needs to be done about this, he seems highly unstable and very aggressive. I think he really needs some kind of help.

He is right though isn’t he. “Call them they won’t come anyway”

Unfortunately, it’s probably true. Anyone heading towards Sainsbury’s be aware, he was there around 30ish minutes ago.

Ash, look back over the course of this thread which has nearly been going for 5 months. The police have been tweeted, emailed, called, you name it. I recall saying many months ago here that we had better just suck it up and get used to it.

I think I may have been the person heard telling him that I had called the police. He approached me in Dartmouth Road very aggressively and then, having pestered the queue outside Smiths, then the passengers leaving the station, and those using the cashcard machines he migrated up the road to Sainsburys, where he also tried begging money from me. His methodology is to position himself where people are likely to stop or cannot move away (for example, on the pedestrian refuge on the S Circular by Smiths or when they have stopped to let someone leave a shop before entering. He has been at this evidently for weeks. Though there have been no reports of violence, he is very aggressive and would be intimidating to some. Also, he is quite well-built and appears to be in quite good shape physically, so if he ever did become violent he might be difficult to deal with. He probably does need the help of adult social services or similar. Police not being available is unlikely to facilitate the engagement of such help.

A couple of Fridays ago I called 101 as I had a concern about an elderly person with mobility issues who was living on their own and who was not responding to my calls or messages, or the charity that had been supporting her in a way. Whilst the operator I spoke to is unlikely to win any customer service awards, the police were around at the person’s house in about 30 minutes, and they then called back to give me an update (person was ok), to ask me some questions and based on that they said they would be making a refereral for some additional help for the person. An overwhemingly positive and proactive approach from the police officer who was there (and a very nice person they seemed to).

It does however beg the question as to why this person can’t be caught with and given the assistance they need and the public need to reassurance and feeling of safety they need. You would hope this many reports would lead to some form of operation to catch the individual as it’s affecting so many people (and maybe that is happening and we just don’t know). I’d say it’s still definitely worth everyone reporting this, but instead of 101 it might be a 999 now if the person is there so he can be caught live as such, if you feel comfortable doing it of course. If not 101 after to log it.

From experience the police tend to prioritise calls where one of the issues is risk to a child or a vulnerable adult. Not sure that anyone would argue with that. However, the concept of ‘vulnerable’ should also perhaps be applied to people who are not obviously a ‘victim’, but nonetheless have some serious difficulties affecting their lives. Of course, I have no way of knowing about the circumstances or interior state of the person in question here, and until there is an intervention, no one does.

You are right about priorities of course David. However, I think many of us would agree that a little more emphasis on the sensibilities of the recipients of TAB’s attentions, and a little less regard for his own (no doubt) tragic inner world would not be such a bad thing.

The police did go looking for him in the summer when I emailed, but they waited more than an hour after I contacted them, so of course TAB had moved. They also (I think) confused him with someone else, which complicated things.

I think all we can do is keep calling the police, and maybe when doing so making it clear this is a longstanding problem — unless people think we could make a joint representation to local police. It’s clear TAB thinks he can do whatever he likes at this point.

I was told by PC Gillian Pearce that if I felt threatened I should call 999. I do wonder whether this is really a 999 matter.

Its very very frustrating I emailed a named officer in this thread months and months ago gave them all details I gave here about the individual approaching me after dark by station, very close aggressive and persuasive and about him following me shouting and swearing at me when I said no to his demands for money…No response nada.
I now when leaving the station to come home at night (not that he only "works "after dark
But as a lone not very agile or young woman that is when I feel most vulnerable as the streets are much quieter).
He is a blight upon the area.
I dont think he has a mental illness as such I suspect he is a junkie and desperate hence the aggression

Exactly. If someone has the presence of mind not to cross boundaries that could result in their arrest then their behaviour clearly isn’t being driven by any mental health issues.

I obviously didn’t make myself entirely clear. The problem is that the Police as well as some other sectors of the public services are now under-resourced. Another problem is the misuse of performance data (often dubious anyway) to determine action in any particular circumstance. It leads to services responding to the risk register not the realities on the ground. When I was violently attacked in Dartmouth Road some years ago, I kept things under control until the police arrived, but they only came in the end because I emphasised that there might be a child protection issue (I’d misread the situation as it happens but anyway). That was really the point I was making, I was not suggesting that this person’s problems are more important than the problems he causes to for everyone else. He might have mental health problems, or he might not. The point is that the Police are much more likely to respond if there is a box to tick (not their fault, by the way, blame politics). Having observed this person for 20 minutes or so, I would say that, yes, he may be mentally ill, but it is equally possible that he has consciously adopted a somewhat theatrical approach to begging and is perfectly clear what he is up to. The evidence for that would be his considered tactic of repeatedly positioning himself where people are more likely to engage with him. (His tactics seem to be spectacularly unsuccessful as no one gave him any money as far as I could see!) However, to be honest it doesn’t much matter. We need this local nuisance to be dealt with.

Very frustrating to have no info on whether police know about this man, have taken or are taking any action, or any advice to the community about what to do if approached.

I’ve just sent a report to the MPS referencing this thread. Fwiw, the site where you do this is quite clear that if you feel threatened call 999. I’d say from the above accounts, the degree to which you feel threatened might vary from person to person and according to whether you are on your own or in a busy area.

I have twice referred PC Pearce to this thread, giving a link, but don’t know if she took any notice.

That’s good, great that you have done that and I was thinking that the more times we report these incidents officially, getting a new report number etc the more likely that it gets an assessment / response that there seems strong support for.

I agree with you David.

It would be good to know more about this group - who is on it, how they are elected/appointed, what the agendas of the meetings are and who sets them. Any info would be appreciated - either on this thread or on a new one.

The safer neighbourhood ward panel consists of local police team, councillors, council officers, representatives of a number of neighbourhood watch group, residents associations, or streets.

The agenda is generally; update on local crime issues in the last 3 months, review of crime stats, update on police team changes (if any), update on ward priorities, setting ward priorities for the next three months. Meetings are currently via Zoom / Teams.

Anybody who wishes to join their local ward panel can contact the local police team. In the case of Forest Hill ward, anybody who is interested is welcome to speak to me directly - by direct message on twitter @mjxa or (for those with permission) via PM on this forum.

I think if i get approached I’m going to call 999 as I think that’s the only way to get police to do anything. Although even then I’m not confident they’d come and I would be concerned he’d snatch the phone!

I think calling 999 is a good idea, but I think make sure you are safe first. So get some distance, maybe go into a shop, or call once he has left you alone. This person sounds a bit unhinged, so if unsure I’d say wait and call when it feels safer for you, or maybe ask a shop or someone else to call for you.

Thanks . Sounds sensible. Although thb now i have read about Violent Peckham Rye man, our beggar sounds positively tame. But in both cases it’s a shame that action can’t be taken both to protect the public and the individuals.

I feel the same way…when he approached me I just wanted to get away as fast as possible to safety-not stand on a dark street in his vicinity calling the cops.

Well obviously I’d prefer to take his photo and call the police there and then and stand over him til they arrived but I suspect that wouldn’t be the wisest course of action!!

With all the attention on social media today about women’s safety at night because of the Sarah Everard case, I can’t help feeling extra annoyed that we couldn’t get the police to pay any attention to the Forest Hill aggressive beggar who preys on lone women in particular.

Yep, and it does not exactly help things when you hear that a policeman has been arrested on suspicion of the murder of the poor soul. There are few things worse than a bent copper.

A major rumpus today. The home secretary and the chief constable say that women must feel safe on the streets. Fine words indeed. Meanwhile its business as usual for the aggressive beggar who as we know tends to go after women on their own and feels he is untouchable.

Don’t worry, Baroness Jones intends to table a motion to make men obey a curfew starting at 6pm. That will stop him.

It will also stop the male bus and train drivers and cab drivers. How will anyone get home?

Who knows?

We do have some female bus, train and cab drivers so sure we’d survive.

More to the point, Baroness Jones is more about starting a conversation about behaviours. That many many women change their behaviour every time they come home in the dark or late at night and how would men feel if they were being asked to do that?

Personally, I know I do - as do the vast majority of my female friends; it’s one reason this horrible murder has really resonated - and why this beggar makes us so nervous. If I’m walking home at night, I’ve got my keys out and wedged through my knuckles. I’ve taken shoes to change into for the walk from the bus stop in case I need to run. I’ve walked the long way around to avoid a dark or quiet spot. I’ve nipped into shops to escape someone who I felt was too close - some of whom were probably perfect innocent but unaware of how they were making me feel.

Honestly guys, ask your female friends and you might be surprised how common it is for us to think like this - then imagine altering your behaviour every time you came home at night - along residential streets.

I was mugged once upon a time in my driveway. To be honest, part of me was just relieved that he’d taken my bag and not anything worse. The police’s suggestion was that I try not to walk home in the dark - I’m sure my boss would have loved to know that I needed to finish at 3pm in the winter. That’s no more extreme than the ‘suggested’ curfew.

The sad thing is the perception of male on female crime is true only in domestic situations. Far more crime is actually commited against males.

This however shouldn’t lessen the impact of this terrible crime.

Men and women can be terrible people at times.

You speak the truth. I have 3 daughters all in their 30’s now. They have had to put up with all sorts of s**t since they were teenagers walking home from school. It’s been this way for a long time.

Then a curfew should help males stay safe too. < removes tongue from cheek >

My thoughts exactly. I’ve actually tweeted about it today. Women’s (and actually men’s and children’s) safety not important when it comes to the AB and the Peckham Rye man.

Feeling pretty angry. I know from my criminology studies that young men are statistically more likely to be attacked but for me as a short woman with not very strong arms and not so fast a runner as I used to be, a man will always have the advantage. So deep down, you are always on your guard. I think I don’t always realise how in my guard I am until I’m walking with someone else! That’s when I realise the rest of the time I’m primed for fight or flight!

I can hear the police helicopter - maybe they’re out looking for the aggressive beggar!

True, but if I suggested, as a male, the women should stay home. It may not work out well for me.

I am six foot two and quite large. In the space of two years in Forest Hill I was threatened with being stabbed five times. Four were men, one was a woman. Being a strong male didn’t help me out.

What are you doing to get threatened 5 times in two years… are you a vigilante or something?

Five were pointing out that Manor Mount was one way and the sixth was telling a delightful young lady that the rubbish she had thrown out of her car at FH Station must have been an accident and could I give it back to her. She was less than amused.

This news story highlights how the mind set of specific individuals can lead to nasty things. We’ll never be in that position to change what/how these people think at that time as much as we might try, I just don’t think that is plausible. Unfortunately, there will always be people that have issues no matter what. But, yes, we must teach our children, girls in particular (my girls have been made aware as much as I can to inform them) of how to navigate their way around these streets and the various situations that may present themselves and for them to be able to walk home safely, It’s a given that when it gets dark, there are far more many opportunists. t’s never been any different for many decades. I’ve experienced many a bad situation. I absolutely believe that anyone & everyone walking alone at night needs to be very aware of their surroundings. It’s purely about education, awareness and trying to be sensible in your movements. I for one do not take any chances and I’m definitely over the 40 mark. On another note, I fully appreciate that homeless individuals must be experiencing hardship but making members of the community feel uncomfortable in an aggressive manner is out of order that’s not a great thing,
I just hope that people maintain awareness when walking our streets. My husband has already named me PC xx, because I am constantly on neighbourhood watch mode in this area!! Haha

The helicopter or whatever it was, seemed extra noisy tonight. Flew over where we are (off Grierson Road) for about 5 minutes.

Perhaps if we spent as much time educating children to respect others and not attack people as we do educating girls how to stay safe at night, we might in the end be able to do a bit less of the latter.

Not that I’m suggesting you’re not also teaching your daughters that too.

I was listening to the radion this morning, discussing the issue of women’s safety.

A few things stuck with me, some will resonate with everyone, some with women only.

Simple things like just going for jog, walking to work, how uncomfortable women (and young girls) can be made to feel, let alone the worry of the more serious incidents that can occur.

There always used to be discussion about the fear of crime, and that is for me a huge issue amongst multiple groups in society now.

There is no easy fix, but one thing that was discussed was education in school about the implications of people’s actions, as well as some straight forward teaching what is unacceptable behaviour generally, how it makes people feel etc.

I grew in up West London, and actually always felt perpetually on guard there when walking back late, and when younger during the day also in some areas, but it’s not something I have felt since moving here.

It’s all one of the same. I have family members that dedicated their whole lives to children and educating them on how to respect others. My girls were one example cited in relation to the original article posted

I unfortunately had a very unfortunate incident at 10yrs old so I am speaking from experience. I would say that the teachers/heads do try to educate.

With this in mind, I would be interested to hear from people who are part of the Neighbourhood Police Liaison Panel for this Ward. Apologies if I don’t have the right title for the group. It has been mentioned previously on the forum, but I wasn’t able to find it just now.

If someone who knows about it could start a new thread, explaining how it works: who is on it (elected? nominated?), the purpose, links with the wider community etc.

The courts don’t seem to offer any real deterrent. When I was growing up watching Sue Cook and Nick Ross on Crimewatch the likes of bank robbers and violent offenders would get pretty stiff sentences compared to today. Imagine growing up on a diet of fly-on-the-wall TV programmes that follow the day to day duties of various police forces where after a car chase following a burglary the offenders are given a suspended sentence and ordered to pay 50 pence in costs. Regardless of whether you’re a criminal or not, it’s painfully obvious that the police don’t walk the beat anymore resulting in a reduced risk to any potential offender.

Well said.

Just a tiny handful of my experiences and they just relate to travel:

Wolf whistled and leered at least once a week from adult men, whilst I was a child in my school uniform during my 5 minute walk home from the bus stop.

Followed up Devonshire Road (during rush-hour with stand-still traffic) by a man who wouldn’t take no for answer. Even after I told him to leave me alone. In the end I had to just walk alongside a man walking in the opposite direction. Even then the man still wouldn’t leave me alone and the man I walked with for help had to tell the guy to f*** off. The man who helped me then told me that’s not the first time he has had to protect a woman from being followed home!

On my commute to work I had a random man come up to me and start threatening me. Reported him to BTP who were waiting for him the next day.

Walking home with keys or something that could act as a weapon for defence is just part of a routine for a woman walking home. It would be lovely to not have to fear for your life during the 5-minute walk home, but unfortunately we don’t get that privilege. I have many many stories, starting from child-age, as do many women I’d imagine.

You don’t need to educate young girls on safety - fear is already ingrained in them unfortunately from the sexual harassment they will no doubt encounter from a young age. Educating people on RESPECTING people is what’s needed. Look out for people who might need your help - on most of my encounters I could have done with the aid of bystanders.

I’m very glad that you were a good citizen in each of those cases and pointed it out. Unfortunately it does also point out why so many people don’t feel they can take action. But there’s a key difference here between each of those instances and what each of the women here have called out.

You pointed out a misdemeanour to the less than law-abiding person doing it. A 6’2" bloke pointing something wrong out, and I know your robust style, will put people on the defensive - however justified your action was and how wrong their reaction was.

Each of the women was simply trying to walk home without drawing any attention to herself.

Haha… yeah 90% of altercations I’ve had, have been with motorists or cyclists. A guy tried to run me over twice and fight me last year, because I used “sign language” to express that I didn’t think it was ok to do 50 in a 20 with his two toddlers in the back.

I thought i had already answered your questions above.

I tend to think of myself as very streetwise having grown up in central london and spending my 20’s and 30’s drinking in Soho (before it was the sanitised version we see now) and hanging round friends squats in Shorditch and spending a lot of those years in New York-HOWEVER-I now feel insecure and vulnerable walking most places in London alone at night as well as travelling on public transport (which I have to do after dark coming back from work) I dont put this down to being older or even crime being worse here-because lord knows when I was living round Notting Hill in the 70’s & 80’s it was very very sketchy and roads like All Saints road had drug dealers at each end and many stabbings, Ditto New York in the 80’s (the areas I stayed and hung out at least) were also extremely sketchy BUT-I definitely felt safer because back then in London and in New York there were always cops somewhere in the vicinity and I knew if I could get to a main road I’d be ok.
Here there is no sign of any cop cars circling the blocks keeping an eye out, no ‘bobby on the beat’ and also no safety net provided for those with Mental health issues to ensure they aren’t just walking the streets in an unstable state with the potential to hurt or kill someone.
30+ Billion pounds on test and trace that doesn’t seem to work but repeated cuts over many years on the Met and our Mental health services have made our City certainly feel like an unsafe place to be and to live.
If TFL dont even ensure that there are enough BTP to enforce wearing of masks on trains by those who are not exempt (despite the many posters threatening fines of up to £3.000 I see many people go through the barriers at stations without masks unchallenged ) or stopping the beggars trawling up and down the carriages what hope is there of anyone apprehending someone disturbed enough to push someone onto the tracks? or a predator bothering a lone woman on a train or on a station?

I think the thing that has unsettled me most about the AB and the peckham rye guy is that in the latter case it seems that someone called 999 and no one came. That really made me wonder, and worry. It’s not just that we have no one out on the beat, it’s that we don’t even know if anyone will come in an emergency.

Perhaps we might expect a more urgent response if we tell whoever answers the 999 call that the aggressive beggar is now targeting people wearing face masks and that he hates anyone who is pro-vaccination. Could work.

Very well said. You and I have had very similar experiences in similar areas in the same time period. It’s getting like the wild west out there but without the vigilantes.

Yes, that was point. If people go after a big bloke what chance do a lot of women have.

This weekend I am going to write to Cressida Dick the Chief Constable to let her know about some of the recent policing issues we have discussed on this forum and ask her whether she thinks there is likely to be any improvement in the foreseeable future. The wellbeing of South Londoners must be very much on her mind at the moment.

If it’s true that Ms Everard was abducted on a main road that’s sadly very telling of the changes. It used to be if you shouted for help on a main street or ran up to a house door someone would help you. I’m not so sure that would happen now.

As a general point: we always need to be aware of our surroundings and be alert. No matter how big and strong we think we are.

I used to live on a narrow boat and walk along the towpath at night. My then husband taught me the key between the knuckle thing plus I had a craft knife on my keyring (would probably be illegal now) He had boxed (admittedly only as a way to avoid being signed up for his school choir) and looked and was well capable of defending himself and others, yet even then, in the early 80s, held the door key in his knuckles when walking at night.

I always do that with my keys before I get off the bus to walk home in the dark, never walk along looking at my phone or with earphones on, wear a cross body bag and, if at all possible, when parking I reverse into the space such that I can make a quick getaway (something the police taught me to do many years ago). Those things are just a sensible habit for men and women to do.

… by other males.

By some other males. I think it’s sad how some people (not on this site) are casting suspicious eyes in the direction of all men. Treating all men as potential perpetrators should be no more acceptable than treating all people of a particular ethic origin as potential perpetrators. We can be alert and sensible of our personal safety without making others feel awkward or embarrassed about their own legitimate reasons for being out at night. These are men’s streets too.

Yes absolutely. But the Venn diagram of victims and attackers would show that attackers are vastly more likely to be male. Yes, men may be most of the victims, but they are almost all of the attackers.

One more thing: please correct me if I’m wrong, but I feel reasonably sure that if I were to be randomly attacked, it would be because someone wants my phone, or my money, or my car keys. Giving those over would be infuriating, but would probably deal with the immediate issue (however physically and emotionally scarring the encounter may be).

However – I very much doubt that I would be attacked because somebody wants to physically violate me. That is a fear that I, as a male, simply never have to experience.

This is exactly it! Women can take steps to be more alert and vigilant but that by itself does not protect them from intentions of others. So education and societal change is vastly more important.

While the statistics prove that males are more prone to violence on the streets than women, this statement is exactly why we are having a conversation about the safety of women on the streets.

I’ve had to change walking and running routes following harassment and out of fear that something worse could happen if I was to ever walk/run pass that shop or through that park again. I no longer run at night. I’ve had male neighbours walk me home from the train station at night because of a situation on the train or they’ve noticed I’ve been followed. Of course, I’ve been very cautious of their intentions even though they had no malicious intent what-so-ever. I’ve had male colleagues go out of their way make sure I got home safely following unwelcomed attention from male customers at work. I work nights so have no option but to be out at night, alone.

It was absolutely ridiculous that police were telling women living in South London to stay indoors after 6pm. And that the continuing conversation is that women should not be out at night on their own. I strongly believe Baroness Jones’ statement suggesting a curfew for men was a reaction to this and not something that will be introduced. We need be asking what we can do to make the streets safe for women. We’re not dismissing the safety of men nor are we saying that all men are to be treated as suspect; it’s unfortunate that as a woman I have no option but treat unknown men as potential harassers due to past experiences.

As for our aggressive beggar, I had the misfortunate to encounter him on one of my walks. Fortunately a couple walked by forcing our beggar into leaving me alone.

I think it is possible to put too much emphasis on examples and incidents of actual physical violence. That is just the tip of the iceberg. The looks and cheap comments in the street,jeering/leering/honking from passing cars, being followed too closely on the pavement, being singled out by the aggressive beggar and the like, its this sort of s**t that women and girls have to put up with day in day out and is in my view a far bigger picture. I also think it leads to women being objectified and de-humanised and all this is - in my view - connected to the more physical stuff.

I read this today, very good and well worth reading I thought. I know i have said quite a lot on this topic. Sorry about that, i just feel quite strongly about it. I am going to shut up for a while now.

So much of this story resonated with my experience of the man who harassed me on the train.

Hmm my male friend was attacked from behind and knocked unconscious in broad daylight in Thornton Heath for his phone and when I lived in Hackney, there was a time you would risk the same if you went for a run down the canal. Sometimes being male evokes a lot more violence because they don’t want to risk you fighting back.

Not that helpful a remark in the current situation.

Of course men get attacked by men. However, they are better equipped to fight back, they don’t, for the most part, have to fear being attacked by women, and don’t always have to be on their guard as women do. And unlike women, they don’t get attacked because they are men.

I take it you haven’t read the last paragraph of my comment.

I don’t in any way want to undermine the points made about men also being attacked. However, I would like to make the point that whilst assault in any form is horrific for anybody, be it man or woman, sexual assault/abuse in my opinion is far more of a traumatising event and can leave a lifetime of mental suffering for somebody. We are not just discussing sexual attacks, but also murder. Too many people (predominantly women) are not only raped but also murdered.

This is a horrific crime.

To vilify all men is crazy. The suggestion of a curfew is non-sensical.

I have walked with women, who I didn’t know, when getting off the train & on dark nights. I make the effort to walk in front. My work shoes make as much of a noise as a ladies heels would. I always found that the person behind would keep in step.

Approached by TAB this afternoon near the Kirkdale end of Dartmouth Road. He crossed the road to address me. I was with my husband, but he spoke to and looked only at me. As usual — this is the fifth time he has bothered us — he got stroppy when I said no, and he got really annoyed when I took a photo of him. Unfortunately as he turned around and crossed the road when I tried to take the picture, I only captured his back view. However, trying to take a picture might help make him go away.

I continue to be concerned that the police won’t do anything about him. I have been increasingly vocal to him about his activity over the five times he has harassed us. I wouldn’t want to meet him on my own as I am a short older woman.

There is a strange man who stands in the road and shakes his fists at vehicles often in Catford. I saw a police van stop and officers talked to him, but just drove off.
I will be surprised if any action is taken.

Little black fella? His name is Fritz and he’s harmless.

Fritz in Catford

The men’s curfew wasn’t a serious suggestion but it does illustrate what women are asked to do to keep themselves safe. The only response officals seem to have to male violence is to tell women to curb their freedom.

So if you are outraged at a suggestion of a curfew for men you have a small inkling of how enraged and exhausted women are to be told yet again to curb ordinary activities in response to male violence.

And what’s even more frustrating is that it’s been the answer for decades…

That was the message when I was at University in the 90s and there was a spate of sexual assaults - female students should avoid walking home alone after dark. NB This was in Aberdeen where it’s dark before 4pm in the winter with evening lectures finishing at 9pm.

And, as mentioned above, the Met police’s advice to me in the early 00s after being mugged in my driveway.

Exactly! I walk home in the dark a lot in winter what am I supposed to do? Get a male chaperone?

I am reminded of the old chant we learned in my teenage years
“Whatever we wear, wherever we go,
Yes means yes and no means no”.
Seems so quaint now - that we thought it would ever be enough.

In case you haven’t already, please make sure you report ant such incidents to the police 101 number. All information helps them to address the situation and understand the concern in the local community.

This is obviously very sensible advice but I still find it a frustrating situation that TAB has actually been reported a number of times and I just feel as though it’s being pushed to the back of the queue as an issue. Same (and worse) with the peckham rye man. The approach seems to be that the incidents are not worth bothering about until we are where we were last week, with an awful murder. But I don’t believe these sort of things always begin with the murder straight away. I think there is an acceleration from minor things to major things. Perhaps not with TAB but definitely with the Peckham Man.

as Wrong Trousers says, where there is a culture of seeing women as fair game, and the early less aggressive behaviour by the potential perpetrator is just seen as part of that, so the escalation isn’t really acted on until it’s too late.

I completely agree that it is frustrating that more has not been done to address one or two individuals in the local area that intimidate people - particularly women walking home alone.

The police have told me that they do take this situation seriously and are looking to resolve the situation. But the local team is rather small and cannot be standing on every street corner. By providing them with weight of evidence they are able to act - first with a warning and then with more serious action. Once they have issued a warning for ASB then it is even more important that any further issues are reported as they are able to take more serious action.

I don’t know the exact operational situation in the cases mentioned above, so this is general advice for instances of Anti-Social Behaviour, threats of violence, and intimidation. Call 999 in an emergency but if you don’t feel that is justified, then please report Anti-Social Behaviour to 101 so that the police have the information about patterns of behaviour, locations, identification, and repeat offenders.

Husband tells me that he saw on next door this bloke has been intimidated women and chasing men in the Dartmouth Road area. Video available on there apparently.

Hi guys, ive just posted the video on nextdoor, i cannot seem to post it here but he was chasing and trying to hit a man right outside the holy trinity school

EDIT by OAKR - I’ve uploaded the video below for you:

Having seen the video suggest anyone who sees him calls 999. The behaviour he is exhibiting is really scary.

Wow, that is terrifying.

On Next Door a member has posted that they believe he lives in Miriam Lodge (the old accommodation block behind what was the police station).

The irony of that is almost too much to bear. Do you laugh or cry

Yep - that’s definitely a 999 call. Which I imagine is what the guy being chased is doing. Is it definitely TAB? Luckily I’ve not yet ‘met’ him so I don’t know what he looks like. Or is he another local hazard

Having ‘met’ him I can confirm that he is the vagrant in question.

Thank you, at least I know who I’m looking out for now!

I’ve heard this evening from a friend whose neighbourhood WhatsApp group has been tracking this man’s activities for a couple of weeks as he has been terrorising their street, that the individual in question was apprehended by the police today.

He was apparently released and told he’d face further action if he did it again. The neighbours were given a crime reference number to report any future instances on, and told to call 101 if not an emergency or 999 in case of emergency.

This evening I’ve written to Ellie Reeves MP, drawing her attention to this thread and giving an account of the events of today I’ve just described, and I asked whether she could try to persuade the relevant authorities to try and do some detective work to join the dots.

Thanks for the update Jonathan - I read this part and thought great news, but then…

This is pretty unbelievable and why people do lose faith with the process. It’s not affected me personally but I can’t imagine how all those who has been confronted by this man feel reading this. It’s a failure for them, and in all likelyhood a failure for this man also.

That video really brought home how scary it must be for many. I’m really surprised at this outcome. I mean, there is a video and a whole host of witnesses and crime reports. I’m not neccesarily blaming the officers on duty, but something is very wrong here.

Sorry if it sounds like I’m shooting the messenger, I’m not.

Thank you for contacting Ellie Reeves, she seems very proactive with certain local issues, I’m not sure what she can do but hopefully exert some influence.

definitely the same man who approached then followed me shouting abuse when I didn’t give him money-in fact I think he was wearing that same backpack and I also recognise the way he moves.

He’s easily identifiable due to the fact that he changes his clothes with less frequency than Noddy. Joking aside, on first hand contact he’s an opportunist with enough presence of mind to not carry out his threats because if he did so he knows that the police would act upon it (I hope). The impression I got from the video is that the man was filming him and the vagrant became agitated because he realised the man wasn’t as easily intimidated but was obviously concerned by the possibility of the tramp having a blade, which so many of London’s urban cowards appear to rely upon to achieve their objective.

He seems to operate in a very restricted area. So he should be relatively easy to track down.
It is very scary that he was filmed in the vicinity of three schools.

Yes I thought that about the schools.

This update was posted on Nextdoor (I’ve excluded the person’s name in case they didn’t want it listed publicly)

20210316_1257581080×529 175 KB

Hello everyone,

This is my first time posting on this forum after creating an account, I do apologise for not posting sooner.

I am the Dedicated Ward Officer for Forest Hill, I can see that this thread has had quite a following, it has been difficult for me to identify the person. Following the video posted yesterday I have this morning identified and visited him.

He has been issued with a community protection notice warning by myself to curb the behaviour. Although I cannot release his details or address I have had a meeting with the manager of his hostel this morning and talked with them about the risks with his behaviour in regards to approaching females and those with young children ect. I have been assured that he is going to be moved very shortly to a different area.

Although it is by no means an excuse, his behaviour is further exacerbated by mental health and personal circumstances, I have made referrals for him in hopes that he receives further support.

I do hope that this will be a resolution going forwards. Unfortunately dealing with crimes of this nature can be difficult, although there may be many calls to police it’s likely that he would have been dealt with by different officers on each occasion who are not aware of the history of behaviour. Beggars are usually just moved on and the officers will go onto the next call. Not all of the incidents are passed onto myself and it can take time to collate the information to deal with the individual.

PC Kemal Babaoglu
Forest Hill SNT

Thanks @PC_Kemal for the update and action. And welcome to the forum.

That’s reassuring for us although hope he gets the help and support he obviously needs so it doesn’t just move the problem to affect another neighbourhood.

I find it concerning that local intelligence is not being shared.

Thanks for the update and action @PC_Kemal

Thanks you for posting @PC_Kemal.

You mention it is hard to collate the information as incidents are effectively dealt with individually, initially anyway.

Is there anything the public could do to assist with collating things ie ask everyone to use a similar reference number if sorts where it is clear it’s always the same offender to help things get to you faster? Basically is there a way things could be reported differently for repeat offences where there is a pattern?

@Marlene_Z well done on the video seems that really helped, and well done everyone for reporting and commenting here which has no doubt also helped.

It is good that he is going to be moved on, but when you consider that it has taken 4 months to get to this point, and the sheer amount of effort and input involved, it is a bit demoralising.

I just had had an encounter with a very aggressive young man, I wonder if it was the same guy. I was just crossing Perry Vale having come out of the underpass, the guy called me several times, I ignored him at first as felt uncomfortable so said I had no cash only card hoping he would leave me alone. He then said he needed food would I buy him some food. I asked a few questions about his situation, he said he lives at the hostel on Dartmouth Road and started to talk about his life said he was on universal credit I said didn’t he get food at the hostel. He was more and more insistent and tbh just to get away I ended up agreeing to buy something so we went to Forest Hill superstore. He then asked for tobacco I had no idea how much it was as he asked the guy at the till for the tobacco and asked me for £15.50.i said no, then he started arguing with me and saying its only. £15 I need it blah… blah blah. I challenged him cos he had originally asked me to buy him food but now he was getting quite aggressive and saying he didn’t need a sandwich he already had a sandwich he needed tobacco etc etc. He continued to argue about how difficult it was to ask people and explain his situation , he was insistent that he needed tobacco. He asked for a cheaper pack and it was still £12 so I declined again and could see the guy on the till was concerned. The guy got v annoyed and we left the shop in the end I scrabbled around and found a bit of change to give him on the proviso he wasn’t going to throw it back in my face, he agreed he wouldn’t. He was quite sarcastic about how difficult it is to get money and he gave me a half-hearted thank you. He made me feel v uncomfortable. I feel sorry for people but I’m not a mug, at the beginning I even said to him am I being a mug helping u and he said no. It was horrible so watch out.

So he obviously wasn’t deterred by the police paying him a visit this morning. (If it is the same person)

Oh really, I must admit I haven’t read the whole back story and comments. I wonder shd I be reporting this then would u say?

Hello pc_kemal

I have just read your post. Please see a post I’ve just put up here of a recent encounter I’m sure it’s the same guy. I’m thankful you are aware of it. I obviously saw this thread too late. Thank you

Could this exchange be on CCTV or witnessed by the shopkeeper and useful to any Police follow up or investigation?

Someone referred to Miriam Lodge as a hostel. It’s certainly used by some local authorities as such, but I’m not sure what level of support is offered or what is its actual status n planning terms or otherwise. Something to find out from your local councillor (not me anymore - I did my time with the colours and I’m on the retired list now).

This sort of problem is likely to become worse over the next few years due to the economic situation and the likely mental health side effects of the current public health crisis. The issue is not so much whether this particular person is or is not a real danger. There will be some who become so.

Sorry to her your experience today. I would always recommend reporting such encounters to the police via 101.
The police are generally a little too busy to be checking forums for updates, reports and questions. And the best way to make sure incidents are recorded is via 101.

Hopefully things will get better in the next few days thanks to today’s work by PC Kemal.

@Lesleyz - A video showing the person in question was posted further up this thread yesterday afternoon by 'Merlene_Z. (at 4.30pm today it is showing as 23 hours ago).

If you have a look at it you should be able to identify if it is the same person that accosted you this afternoon.

@Lesleyz - here is a link to the video: Aggressive begging in South Road/Church Rise, Forest Hill - #258 by Marlene_Z

Ooh, maybe, it was about 3.30 or something like that

OK thanks for the advice Michael

It’s hard to say exactly, he looks v similar, same height, dark clothes w a bag on his back but I can’t see his face close enough. He does look about the right age tho.

Hi Lesleyz,

I’m not back in work until Friday evening, if he has not been moved by then and I’m not abstracted with protests ect then I will have a look at the CCTV in the store and follow up. I will try to keep an eye on this forum more often going forward but there will be long periods where it may not be monitored.

You can email my team inbox directly;
ForestHill.SNT@met.police.uk

In terms of assisting with giving information, photos and videos help a lot, especially if emailed directly to me/team inbox, of course only do this if safe. Please do so alongside ringing 999/101 as I don’t work 24/7 and I am dealing with many other issues so may not always be available.

I hope that’s helpful,

Kemal

Thank you very much, that is most helpful, it really was quite disturbing. I appreciate you getting back to me.
Lesley

Thank you @PC_Kemal, that’s really helpful.

Good luck with everything.

I had an encounter with this guy yesterday again. One of several over the last few months including one where I encountered him on Havelock Walk at 8:30pm at night after a Physio appointment. He kept standing in my path as I tried to exit to the South Circular. He then proceeded to follow me and shout at me that there was a “F*ing cashpoint at the station” and that I should “stop saying fking sorry and go to the cashpoint” if I had no change.

He followed me to the central reservation of the South Circular where he continued to hassle me. I was sizing up the distance to The Dartmouth Arms (was before we went into Tier 3) as I thought I would have to leg it.

He didn’t follow me any further but screamed “fuckkkkk!!!” at me and continued to shout. I was really worried he was going to come chasing after me.

He’s intense. Will forward my list of encounters to the Forest Hill police email. Hopefully he’ll get the help he needs but also his behaviour will be managed so it does not escalate.

This post was flagged and is temporarily hidden.

Identical behaviour to that he used on me, deliberately rushing up to stand very close in front of me then following me shouting until two people appeared and he legged it

A post was split to a new topic: Post moved from Aggressive begging in South Road/ChurchRise Thread

The man in the video is certainly the same person who has harassed me and my husband five times, most recently this past weekend. If he lives at Miriam House, it makes sense, as it was just across from the building site next to it that he approached us this time. His behaviour to the women who encountered him today is very similar to his with us: indignant and angry if he isn’t given anything. It’s evident that he has not taken note of the warning he was given earlier today. I hope therefore that this can be taken further. We have been trying to do something about this problem for months. If he is moved to another area, he will no doubt continue to act as he is doing in FH, but without the local police knowledge that we hope has by now accrued here. That is worrying.

These are my worries too - that he isn’t heeding the warning and that I’m
Not sure what ‘moved on’ means. Moved on to where and with what support? It sounds as though there are mental health and other problems but at the same time the public does need to be protected. It’s all rather frustrating and difficult.

If he is causing people to be concerned for their safety it is legally an assault and he should be being arrested every time he does it.

Hi folks - first time poster here. I had a nasty run-in with what appears to be the same guy on Monday morning. He was outside Sainsbury’s on London Road and was following an elderly lady up the road to the entrance to Sainsburys. He was aggressively demanding money from her and displaying extremely threatening body language. The lady kept putting her hands up to protect herself and seemingly appease him as he was really invading her space (she was a lot smaller than him and he was bearing over her and blocking her path). I was putting my mask on and getting ready to step in when he caught sight of me looking and started shouting, swearing at me and threatening me. I went into Sainsburys and alerted staff. He kept shouting extremely offensive things at me while I spoke to staff. The security guard then got involved and moved him on. I did feel very shaken up by the experience. I reported the incident on the 101 website when home. I have seen this guy around a lot lately - always aggressively asking for money. I saw him again yesterday at the Perry Vale side of the underpass. He shouted at me for money but didn’t seem to recognise me from the previous day’s altercation. I really hope he gets the help he needs, however, as a mum walking with her small daughter I feel he is posing a danger to safety now.

PC Kemal said that TAB was visited and spoken to in the past day or so. Since then things seem much the same as ever. PC Kemal has provided an email address above. Has any one brought the latest events to the attention of PC Kemal or the “team” ?

Yes, and he has responded above to the latest incident by saying he’ll follow up on Friday if the guy has not been moved on. I did call Miriam Lodge yesterday asking that they try to ensure that this guy’s history doesn’t fall through the cracks when he’s moved to somewhere else, and the person I spoke to indicated that they would indeed try to do that, though it sounds as though it will be in the hands of local council authorities, so I wouldn’t be surprised if it does fall by the wayside ready for a new neighbourhood to discover. Which would be a great shame.

There’s a small chance he’ll be moved to new accommodation or a borough that has better facilities and help for this guy… I hope at least.

Yes there is probably a small chance of that. So small you would need a jewellers eyepiece to see it.

I too hope that this man finds suitable help. I and many other passers by were loudly and aggressively approached by him on Monday about 6pm opposite the library. Not willing to take no for an answer, and best to give him a wide berth if in any way possible.

Not making light of our current issue in any way, but thought people would like to see this report of an incident opposite the Bird in Hand from 1855. The man in question was given a bloody nose by a passer by. Which of course I do not condone!

image3024×4032 1.89 MB

I think this is him… been at this doorway for 15mins

Update: so yes the police showed up and took him away. Was very strange he spent about 20mins taking items of clothing off and on again and maybe had a wee.

Genuine question as I have no knowledge…

What kind of assistance can people like him get? Is he meant to have a carer or a chaperone?

I don’t mean to sound insensitive but surely the public should be protected from somebody with his personality disorder/ behaviour who could be a threat. I was verbally abused on a train the other year by a similar man and I’ve wondered this since.

Was it train poet? He’s the worst

Genuine answer. He is likely to have a personality disorder of some description. There is very little that is done or can be done. How do i know ? - my missus has spent 30 years in NHS and prison mental health services and knows the system inside out. Once upon a time a couple of decades ago ago there were some good residential resources that were quite helpful, if only by giving them somewhere to go thereby keeping them off the streets for periods of time. But all the money has been progressively drained out of all that and now these characters are by and large the responsibility of the crumbling criminal justice system. A system in which I have worked for two decades. There are no chaperones or carers, there never were. He will be living in some sort of half way house full of substance abusers and other delinquents. Once one of them starts getting out of hand, he will either be arrested and charged ( exceedingly unlikely unless he badly hurts or murders someone as we have seen demonstrated over the last 4 months) or more likely moved on so he becomes someone elses problem. That’s basically it.

I think he’s been around Sunderland Rd / Stansted Rd this afternoon, heard some yelling and shouting

It was a man (6ft tall black man wearing a beanie hat, jeans and rucksack) who got on the Southern train at Sydenham station circa 7am and got off at Clapham Junction.

He threatened lots of people every week- whichever random stranger minding their own business he took a dislike to was his victim.

I reported him to British Transport Police a few times. The first time I reported him I know that they did act on it as the next day (as promised) two police officers were waiting at Clapham Station platform for him, sadly he didn’t get the train that day. So some boroughs or at least BTP do respond immediately to behaviour of this kind.

Yeah he was picked up by the police on Sunderland road. I heard shouting and saw him acting weirdly.

Train poet is horrendous. Haven’t traveled on the OG for most of a year but pre-Covid I’d see him every day and wondered how long it’d be until he hurt someone. My personal experience of BTP is that they’re pretty useless, station staff at shadwell more so.

This certainly looks like the guy I encountered on Monday.

We’ve just seen him in the same area as the video shouting and banging on the bins of a building he clearly didnt get the message, he seems angrier now

Maybe he is angrier because he got the message!

I don’t know whether the helpful video that was posted further up the thread has raised awareness so people now have more context for their encounters or whether he has just gone a bit wild since the police spoke to him, but he certainly seems to have been much more active and aggressive in the last couple of days.

agree-I was pretty certain I saw him around this morning in the forecourt to the station picking up cigarette ends and hanging round the cashpoints and ticket machines;
as he stood up from picking up one of the cigarette ends he caught my eye and made to say something but for once in my life I moved pretty swiftly (probably because I was running late for work!) and bolted into the station I think he may have had another guy with him who was slight in build a bit scrawny and haggard and wearing camo who was also lurking round the ticket machines-

Begging aside, this really has made me ask myself who the Safer Neighbourhood team is actually comprised of. Since joining this forum I’ve always taken it as a throw away comment deferring any local issues to a group of uniformed officers supported by one or two civilian staff and that it was based in the ward of Forest Hill. Now I can’t help but wonder if the ‘team’ is in fact a desk manned on rotation at Lewisham police station.

I imagine it is comprised of a few genuinely well intentioned and very overstretched coppers, Swagsy. I don’t think this is entirely their fault. Don’t forget that when Theresa May was Home Secretary, she made a point of taking them on and they got cut to ribbons. Now it’s us lot who have to live with the consequences.

The irony of this particular situation is that the place where this aggressive beggar lives is the very place that used to house scores of police officers behind the old Sydenham police station - so this is a complete turnaround.

I really do sympathise with the the police now because they’re too few in number, with too few teeth and with an increasingly challenging workload - ie trying to deal with the failed ‘care in the community’, as with this case.

I sincerely hope you’re right and that my suspicions are ill-founded. That being said, this has gone seemingly unchecked for quite some time now.

But there’s no resource problem when it comes to policing a vigil in Clapham.

Wasn’t that to try to avert the build up of a Covid rule-busting crowd as they do day in day out with all sorts of other illegal mass gatherings, raves, weddings and parties?

Went sainsburys yesterday 7.30pm a man approached me near Superdrug wanting money. He then followed still asking for money 3 times I said I didn’t have any on me. He then followed again asking could I buy him a hot meal. I didn’t like how he was demanding and his persistence. Not sure he was the same person in previous posts, he had a pink ruck sack on his back, black jacket, hood up. He was still on London road down near the bus stops, so I crossed over the road so didn’t have to encounter him again. He was approaching quite a few people.

Sounds like the same person.

Hi Everyone,

It would appear that my visit a few days ago did little to disrupt him. Unfortunately I was not on duty yesterday due to an emergency at home. Some of my colleagues from a neighbouring ward attended however and assisted with moving him out so he should not cause any further issues.

His housing officer is aware of his behaviour and I am going to contact the local policing team as soon as I have confirmation of where he has been placed so he is on their radar.

I have made referrals for him via social services and his GP, whether he accepts help and support is out of anyone’s control but his own.

I did see a comment in regards to what the ‘local policing team’ consists of, it used to be more but the current model is 2 police officers and 1 PCSO per ward. This of course doesn’t factor in shielding/restrictions and vacancies. Currently we are based out of Catford Hill Police Station but the building has now been sold and we are moving next week a bit further away to Catford Traffic Garage.

If anyone has an interest in what we deal with as a local team and would like some further involvement you are free to email the team to enquire about joining the Forest Hill Ward Panel. We hold the meeting virtually at the moment every 3 months and the meetings generally last around 1 hour.

ForestHill.snt@met.police.uk

As I said I will try to be more active on here going forward!

Kind regards,

PC Kemal

Thank you so much!

Three cheers for PC Kemal

Hip Hip …

Catford Hill Police Station was a police building when I was at primary school.
We will be selling Buckingham Palace next!

Ok, it looks as if i will have to do it - Hooray !!!

Thanks PC Kemal! I really appreciate your taking the time to write such detailed and understanding responses to community concerns, and for taking action.

Having observed him and had run-ins with him myself (thankfully in his earlier, ‘calmer’ days) it’s clear this guy is seriously ill, and it’s terribly sad that it’s come to this. I hope he agrees to getting help before it’s too late.

Hooray! This is certainly good news for us, but I hope that this individual does take the help they have been referred for, for his sake as well as that of others,

Very many thanks to PC Kemal and team for taking action. Your efforts are very very much appreciated. Also thanks to the person who made the video, which felt like a game changer in terms of giving the police team the evidence they needed.

…HOORAY!!!

PC Kemal’s last post (with 22 likes so far!) was really encouraging for me because it showed that he’d got involved, got it sorted and looks like he’ll get on top of anything like this when it happens again.

I agree with your sentiment 100%, but I am not sure if we know whether PC Kemal is a he or a she do we ?

PC Kemal is a man.

A myth, a legend.

Oh ok, its just that I didn’t notice anything in his messages one way or the other.

This is very good news. Thank you very much for your efforts.

Thanks for the update. It’s great that you’ve taken on board local concerns, particularly around whether by him being moved on the experience this neighbourhood has had would get lost in the sands of time. It’s really reassuring to hear that the information is getting shared with the right people to try and ensure he doesn’t pick up where he left off, somewhere else.