Community speed checks

I am sure I am not the only one, who over the years has become alarmed by the speed some cars drive at down residential roads, as well as the additional risks they take when trying to hit the next traffic jam as fast as possible.

Church Rise for example. Blind crest and junction at the top of the hill when taken at speed, which it frequently is. At the other end by Waldram Park Road, there is a nursery, which is pretty hard to miss with its fence of pencils.
Yet every day, the road becomes not just a race track, but a slalom, as the very important people passing through the area weave down the road swerving between the speed cushions, as they speed towards the stationary traffic joining the A205.

During this time parents are trying to safely get their children across the road into the nursery, as well as many local residents walking their children to the local schools. The fact there have not been a number of accidents is pure luck rather than a balanced existence.

On really busy days when the traffic joining Waldram from Church Rise starts to get really backed up, traffic will then opt to ignore the island splitting the two directions of traffic coming out of Church Rise, drive down the outside of the queuing traffic, and start merging onto Waldram from the wrong side of Church Rise. Needless to say, again another accident waiting to happen, and again, all right outside the nursery.

So I wondered…
Other boroughs in London and counties all over the UK run “Community Speed Check” programs. I am pretty sure some have been done closer to home over time.
My question to SE23 is, are YOU willing to participate in such a program. Give up a couple of hours here and there, to try and kerb this behaviour, and send a small but powerful message out to motorists who use our streets?

I am not just talking about Church Rise, but many of the other roads which experience similar problems. I am not sure if the police funding is even there to support this sort of thing, but we can only ask. But before asking, I thought I would ask on here first to see if it even gets the thumbs up and a handful of volunteers to make it viable.

I would love to hear your thoughts on this matter.

Thanks for reading.

PS, just to be clear, such programs do not involve you trying to stop vehicles or confront anyone, just record speed and details of vehicles. They then receive an official warning letter.

I much prefer this idea to cameras, which drivers look out for (dangerous), or slow down temporarily for. “Community Speed Check” means bad drivers will always feel paranoid that they’re being watched, and I like that.

Far better than humps, which are bad for the environment (start/stop driving), damage cars and damage neighbouring properties because of ground tremors.

Glad you like it Chris. Hopefully we can get together a small group who feel the same way.

This looks to be a helpful resource:

http://www.communityspeedwatch.co.uk

Any thoughts from @met_police_uk on whether this is viable in Forest Hill / HOP?

Could apply for assembly funding (up to £2500) for equipment

Recently, a community road watch event was arranged with Lewisham Council’s Road Safety team and the Met Police Safer Transport Team,which focussed on Honor Oak and Crofton Park. I wanted to be involved, but was working at the time.

Apparently, it was an opportunity to have ago using the speed device and recording the information required for the letters to be sent out to any drivers travelling over the speed limit. I think it was arranged by the Hopcroft Forum and the We Want a Safer Stondon Park & Brockley Rd Facebook Group. Liz Brooker is the council officer responsible for Road Safety in the borough. She may be the one who can set this up with the Met Safer Transport Team if Forest Hill folk are interested in doing something similar.

Kind regards

Liz

Wow, thanks for all that information @Taoschno

I have contacted Met Road Safety about this, and am waiting to hear back. I really do hope we can sort something out.

Message from Sgt Phil Moore of @ForestHillSNT

So now to take the next step and see how to get involved. Any ward panel members here?

Hi Michael, we regularly complete speeding initiatives across both wards and on occasions invite ward panel members to come along with us to get an insight as to how using a speed gun works and how effective it can be to help motorists from speeding.

Yep Michael, me & @Michael are

I’ve not attended one of these, maybe Michael has.

Are we discussing this at our next “meet up” @anon5422159 & @anon64893700 ?

We can definitely discuss this, of course, particularly if there’s a plan to make members aware of, and something they can get involved in.

I’m a bit hesitant to set a formal “agenda” for the meetup because I think the best discussions are those that come up naturally at the time, and we can do all the formal discussion here on the forum.

Also I think the FHTA and Forest Hill Society are better placed to organise formal meetings on particular local interest topics, would you agree @Michael?

Interesting. PC Hill and I are in conversation about an incident I had last Friday on one way driving. Speeding is another aggravation of mine. Living on a 20 mph rat run I constantly see speeders. Lived there since 2001 and have seen 1 speed trap in that time. Count me in.

Thought you might like this @Londondrz
Might do my own informal observations one day when I am free

As for who should front the action. By all accounts according to @ForestHillSNT , these happen locally already, so it is just a matter of formally raising it with the ward panel. So a few names behind the request, and a formal request should get it under way nicely, as it is an ongoing concern.

Happy to add this to the next FHTA meeting agenda & @Michael is also invited to these, Also myself or Michael could speak to Michael (Hill) about it being discussed at the next ward panel meeting

@Pauline PC Hill is such a nice and helpful person. Please give him my regards.

Would be quite fun (but possibly unethical) to post pics with the speed readout into the forum to shame bad drivers…

Given photography in a public place is quite legal there is nothing stopping us posting photos. However, unless we can be sure that they are speeding I wouldnt. Going the wrong way down one way roads and parking on zig zags outside schools is a separate matter. If you have the bandwidth and storage I can start posting those on here now

Much more what I had in mind @Londondrz

If you stand at the lights on London Road by FH station with a camera I can guarantee you will capture at least 2 drivers going through red at every light change.

Will do, Michael & his team always pop in to say hi when they’re passing & give updates on anything the traders need to be aware of, they’re all a really nice bunch & little Amie likes lollipops so I see her the most, she can talk as much as me so if she has a few minutes in between jobs we have a quick natter

@anon64893700 Had to pen a quick ■■■■ (?) via Twitter to a well known pest control and hygiene firm after one of it’s vans blasted through a red light with the driver texting. He just missed me. Not a happy bunny.

Edit: This site does have a sweary filter after all I thought the plural noun for writing on Twitter was posting a T.wat

Lol nicely done sir

only the really nasty words, you bad boy!

My bad

Sydenham Rise is another place where I have seen very dangerous driving. High speed passing of slower cars by driving on the wrong side of the road past the traffic bollards both at the junction with Sydenham Hill and those half way down. Also the lights with the South Circular by the Hornimans are frequently jumped at speed.

Any word if this subject was ever raised at the ward meeting? And if so, any outcome to speak of?

I wasn’t able to make the last ward panel meeting, but here’s some good news!

Mick (PC Michael Hill) popped in today for a quick chat as he was passing & I spoke to him about it, and he’s going to try and arrange for us to go out one evening with him to do community speed checks.

As a ward panel member I just need to email him formally to request it & it shouldn’t be a problem, and up to 6 of us can go along with him to learn how to use the equipment & do the speed checks.

So that means 5 others can come along - so @anon64893700 @anon5422159 & @Londondrz am I counting you in?

Anyone else want to join us?

Also Mick said if I email a list of the Streets/Roads mentioned in this thread he can arrange for them to do speed checks at the Roads/Streets I email, so I’ll do this tonight. If anyone wants to add anymore not mentioned already please do as I’ll do the list around 8ish tonight

Yes! Great news @Pauline - I will gladly join you for Community Speed Watch training. Will be free most nights except 17th-24th Aug (and of course the 27th).

Will be satisfying to catch errant SE23 drivers in the sights of a speed gun.

Thanks for that update Pauline.

Late in the day I know but I’m putting a list of Roads together before bed, there was another thread on this, anyone got it to hand? @anon5422159

A couple of threads with posts about speeding:

Cheers Chris, putting the list together now

Here’s a list of Roads/Streets I’ll send!

Any others?

Church Rise
Manor Mount
Waldram Park Rd
Sydenham Rise
Cranston Rd
Sydenham Hill
Stanstead Rd
Honor Oak Rd
Waldenshaw Rd
(st) David’s Rd
Perry Vale
Woolstone Rd
Houston Rd

I think Honor Oak Park (the High St road) should be on the list too?

I wonder if we’ll be able to capture a few other road abuses too …?

Ditto the pedestrian crossing opposite the Co-op.

Agreed re Honor Oak Park. The corner with Devonshire Road would be a good spot. You will see some who are going too fast to stop at not just one but two zebra crossings!

Yep, I am in!

Cool bananas John

I’ll update the list and add on all suggestions & email to Mick tomorrow

BTW I told him you think very highly of him, he knew who I was talking about straight away & said you were a nice fellow too

I never told him about my Nerf gun though so that’s a secret, I don’t want to get in trouble

Good news

I saw Michael last night and he is sorting it out, looking forward to this.

Leave your Nerf gun at home Pauline!!!

Pauline,

I dont know if you have already e-mailed this list to michael, but i have just forwarded him the road names just incase!!

Amie

x

Amie

I’m only keeping my Nerf gun for @Londondrz when he misbehaves, please tell Mick I won’t use it in public

On a serious note thanks Mrs!

Donald is at mine now, he said hello & the lovely Andrea popped in to check out the workshops he’s doing with “Seniors Lewisham & Young Lewisham Project” for FHFW yesterday between jobs.

We always love a friendly hello from you guys when you are passing & in between jobs

See you soon hopefully

P x

I don’t know why this didn’t occur before but it strikes me that the easy answer on Honor Oak Park would be to put all three of the zebra crossings on raised tables, i.e. level with the kerb. Can anyone see why, apart from a relatively small cost, this shouldn’t be done?

Sounds ideal to me.
Annoys me that Lewisham’s take on it is, spend some money on some signs, then pass it over to the MPS to sort out.
How about taking some of the money from all the new signs and road painting, and paying for some community speed schemes. Enforcement after all is what is lacking here, not signs.

Anyone know what the situation is re a new 20mph zone? I noticed that Southend Lane (the sort-of dual carriageway from Sainsbury’s down to Homebase) is signposted as 20mph - which frankly seems ridiculous for a road like that.

anon64893700, this wasn’t specifically aimed at you but I seem to have hit a button that makes this a reply to you.

ALL of Lewisham is 20mph unless otherwise signed.
Only red routes remain 30mph unless otherwise signed.

As for ridiculous, I agree, there are many roads which it is not suitable for, and buses certainly are not sticking to it yet. Nor are many for that matter.

It is borderline painfully slow on roads such as Shardeloes

PS, no probs re the reply @AndyS

The Lewisham info on the 20mph limit says that signs will be placed at the entrance to the borough and also where people leave a 30mph road, as well as having repeater signs every 150-200m (see https://www.lewisham.gov.uk/myservices/transport/road-safety/Pages/20mph-borough-speed-limit.aspx).

That page says that “smaller repeater signs (300mm diameter) are required at regular intervals, approximately every 150 to 200 metres” but according to the legislation introduced in April this year (at http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2016/362/pdfs/uksi_20160362_en.pdf for those who want to do some reading) there’s no longer a need for repeater signs. So there’s an opportunity for the council to save some money.

So we have something which is going to be implemented inconsistently. On the plus side, the Met appears to finally have agreed to police/enforce the 20mph limit.

Scarce police resources being spent catching people “speeding” at 25mph. Diverted from enforcement of other crimes. Definitely not a plus side IMO.

I don’t think the Met ever refused to enforce it, the question was always, if they don’t have the manpower to enforce the 30, how will they find it for the new lower limit.

With regards to the signs, I would love to know the costs of it all, and how much is being spent on the repeaters. Weird seeing tiny stretches that the limit changes back and forth. Cranston to Brockley Rise for example

Yet still no word on the community speed checks suggestion made a while back. Which would save resources, allow others to participate and understand more, and spread the word through the community, rather than constantly leaning on the police to do more and more.

I was really up for doing the Community Speed Checks, but damned if I’m going to be an enforcement agent for Lewisham Council’s counter-productive 20mph limits.

On the other hand I’m happy to take part if it means I can ensure only drivers at 36mph and above are targeted, and not drivers doing a sensible 30mph on main roads.

Ok - mea culpa - I shouldn’t have said “on the plus side” about the police being used to enforce this. What I meant was, in a situation where most drivers had been operating under the assumption that there was no sanction for exceeding the speed limit (ACPO and the Met had both said for a long time that enforcement of 20mph limits was an issue for local authorities and not the police) it was a bit pointless to have the limit.

As I’ve said before, I’d rather have a 30mph limit enforced and obeyed than a 20 limit which just leads to inconsistent speeds and dangerous unexpected behaviour as idiots try to overtake in unwise places.

For what I meant on police enforcement (prior to 2013, mainly), see http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/news/10323354/Police-ready-to-get-tough-on-20mph-limits.html.

Unfortunately @anon5422159 the 20 limit will now mean (from http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/p_to_r/road_traffic_offences_guidance_on_fixed_penalty_notices/)

The Association of Chief Police Officers (ACPO) has issued speed enforcement policy guidance, which suggests that enforcement will normally occur when a driver exceeds the speed limit by a particular margin. This is normally 10 per cent over the speed limit plus 2 mph. It also sets guidelines for when it would not be appropriate to issue a fixed penalty notice but to issue a summons instead (see below). Note that these are guidelines and that a police officer has discretion to act outside of them providing he acts fairly, consistently and proportionately.

Speed limit: 20 mph
ACPO charging threshold: 24 mph
Summons: 35 mph

Thanks for the info, astonishing and disappointing though it is.

I can’t imagine the courts will be happy about being flooded with drivers who’ve “sped” at 35mph.

I just re-read your excellent post on the other thread, @dave and was reminded you were one of those who agreed that the new limits would be counterproductive.

If anyone wanted to reply regarding 20mph limits, best to continue the chat on the 20mph limits thread so as to keep this thread focused on Community Speed Watch.

20’s have their place for sure, but blanket is stupid as we have said over and over. I tried all the way to work to see how it would be dealt with, driving at 20 and seeing the queues building, and watching the impatience grow.

Here is an interesting question though… On these delicate and high risk roads, where every mph counts, should buses and larger vehicles have slower speed limits, given that their stopping distances are rather different to those of a passenger car.
Just a thought I had while driving along Brockley Road at 20mph today, being undertaken and shaken by buses in the bus lane…

I liked your post because of the info you shared NOT because I like the way LC money is spent in this case.

I find some money is wasted in some areas & not on others & also find money is better spent elsewhere than on what is decided by LC.

Yes there is a budget to set & yes savings have to be made, but what is most important to locals in our community?

Time for another thread possibly @moderators - maybe “Due to cuts from Central Government what funded services in SE23 do you think iare a necessity/priority and what could we live without” probably not thie right title for this but hope you get my jist guys.

I wouldn’t want this in Politicos but just in general what means more to locals with the services LC can provide financially for the community.

Today I was nearly run over on Sydenham Road near the train station. I was crossing the road on the pedestrian crossing when an idiot decided he was too important to sit in traffic, sped down the wrong side of the road, and drove through the red light of the crossing. Fortunately the lady with a baby in a pram had already crossed, but I had to sprint out of the way. When a car beeped him he just waved his hand in the air in a kind of ‘so what’ way. Afterwards I wondered if there’s anything you can do about this kind of thing? Obviously I didn’t have video footage but can you report this type of driving? It was extremely reckless. My guess is that because he was driving on the wrong side of the road and there was a lorry in front of the traffic lights he didn’t realise it was on red. The pedestrians on the crossing didn’t seem to bother him though, felt like I was in GTA…

Sorry - I just needed to have a rant about that!

Thanks for the info, @anon93536262. I hear you @Pauline and I am frustrated with the council spending so much money on the counter-productive 20mph limits.

A post was merged into an existing topic: Improving local council spending

I wonder if this is the same idiot I saw the other day on Dartmouth Road. Couldn’t be bothered to wait in the queue behind a scaffolding lorry turning right, so sped down the wong side of the road and almost clipped the lorry as it started its manoeuvre. In defence of the driver, he did complete his suicide manouver with his hand firmly in his horn so everyone could see what a dangerous prat he was being!

No amount of 20 mph speed signs are ever going to make a blind bit of difference to him and others like him

P lease report the driver to your local SNT team, time, date regards, type of car and actions. They will act. Reporting it on here is great but nothing will happen.

If you are tired of this blatant idiocy then report it.

Why counter-productive? From the council document in the link:

The primary function of a 20mph zone is to reduce speed throughout and
hence the number and severity of road traffic casualties. In 2008 a report
commissioned by Transport for London regarding 20mph zones in London
included amongst its conclusions that: “On average, between 1991 and 2006,
there has been a 1.7% decline in all casualties each year on London’s roads”
and “Historically, 20 mph zones in London have reduced overall casualties
within (20mph) zones by 42% above this background decline.”

Enforcement of this is going to be interesting. Very much like the new points and fines for mobile phone usage. During my epic coffee morning at St. David’s the person I was with and I noticed a lot of drivers using mobile phones on the South Circular so decided to count them. 26 in 5 minutes.

The message just is not getting through.

BTW, for any of the SNT having a look. Coffee at St. Davids and enforcing the law. Seems like a winner to me!

Yes indeed but I think that the council’s focus is on nudging behaviour rather than beating a big stick whether they had the resources for that or not. This needs to be seen in the context of local road environment enhancement plans, see here for instance:

Context is everything. I just wish it could happen faster so that this was more obvious.

A post was merged into an existing topic: 20mph speed limit rollout by Lewisham Council (effective September 2016)

I am going to guess that the 42% is a proportion of the 1.7%. Lazy (or naughty) use of stats from TfL there.

Well without guessing it doesn’t look like it:
http://content.tfl.gov.uk/20-mph-zones-and-road-safety-in-london.pdf

Agreed, that is precisely my point. It doesn’t matter if the borough average reduces by 1mph if the casualties are reduced by targeting the most dangerous areas.

Think we need some cleanup here to keep this thread on @anon64893700’s original topic of Community Speed Watch. I’ll act after 7 votes.

7 posts were split to a new topic: Community Speed Checks 2017