Dartmouth Road Closure [Now Open]

Here is a message I received via the GLA

there will be changes in our bus services from Monday 29 January until mid-March . This is due to the closure of Dartmouth Road while London Borough of Lewisham carries out renewal works.

Bus route 122 will be diverted in both directions via London Road, Sydenham Rise, Sydenham Hill and Kirkdale, not serving Dartmouth Road.

Bus routes 176 and 197 will be diverted in both directions via Sydenham Hill and Kirkdale, not serving London Road (east of Sydenham Hill), Forest Hill station or Dartmouth Road. Customers for National Rail or London Overground can change at Sydenham station instead of Forest Hill station. Customers going to the town centre can change at Lordship Lane to / from route 185 or in Kirkdale to / from route 356.

We are posting notices at the bus stops in Dartmouth Road, directing customers to alternative stops.

From the FH Soc website.

Blockquote Phase 5 – will commence on 09/01/18 on Dartmouth Road, between A205 and Round hill Rd will have new Granite Sections installed into the carriageway. A road closure of Dartmouth road will be in force to through traffic for 6 weeks to enable the works to take place. The Granite sections will be built in localised road closures, to allow access to shops and facilities via either end of Dartmouth road. A letter and local engagement will be sent out 3 months in advance of works.

Blockquote Phase 6 - will commence on the 07/02/18 on Dartmouth Road, between A205 and Round hill Rd, the carriageway will be resurfaced . Works will be completed over approximately 3 nights and involve a full road closure for the three nights. A letter and local engagement will be sent out 1 month in advance of works.

Now clearly either they’ve fallen behind or are going to do the resurfacing over three nights along the whole of Dartmouth Road which needs resurfacing over three nights in Feb?

I’ve heard they are about 6 weeks behind.

The good people of the Forest Hill Society have said today that the closure will start from Monday:

I think that’s fairly disappointing news for those trading on Dartmouth Road. Since January is generally quieter it’s the least worst month for road closures, but they’re going to be seeing reduced traffic through most of the first quarter of the year now.

I think we all need to use Shanks’ Pony and support our lovely local businesses.

Unless they are keeping open the side roads, as far as I am aware no road closure notices have been issued for the adjoining streets to Dartmouth Road.

@Pauline mentioned to me signs were going up tomorrow.

Signs were up tonight saying the road was closed for 6 weeks from the 29th/Monday

Information on the bus diversions from TFL:

Routes 122, 176 and 197 are on diversion until 10th March due to works at Dartmouth Road, SE26. Route 122 diverted via London Road, Sydenham Rise, Sydenham Hill and Kirkdale both ways. Routes 176 and 197 unable to serve Forest Hill Station and diverted via Sydenham Hill and Kirkdale both ways.

I wonder whether the 122, 176 and 197 will stop at the bus stops on Kirkdale?

They should yes, so the nearest stop to Dartmouth Road would be the one near the Tesco Metro on Kirkdale.

On the plus side all those school kids who get on the bus at Sainsbury’s and get off 2 stops later on Dartmouth Rd can have a bit more exercise.

Latest update I got as of Friday is that D Rd closure tomorrow will be from Dartmouth Place (Road between Hair Lounge & the Chinese) to Derby Hill (opposite from Your Eyes Only DVD shop) so access to D Rd should be available via Derby Hill from opposite FYEO downwards & from Thorpewood Avenue to access D Rd up until Hair Lounge, Chinese, Kebab Shop etc.
And from the other side of the Road. Dartmouth Place (Hair Lounge & Chinese on either corner) & Clyde Vale, the side Road between ALDLife & Twist Studios/Wild Horses & Crazy Man Crazy Vintage Shops.

Hope that helps

Pedestrian access is as normal through all of this, so no need to shy away from strolling to the local shops & businesses during this period

Couldn’t agree more Dave, thanks for gunning for us local traders

January does tend to be our quietest month, but on D Rd we’ve had a quiet last 6 months & probably another few due to the works. Though hopefully all will flourish when all is done and dusted

Hello all,

Could someone tell me when the roadworks will be completely finished? I was told Spring but if someone has a specific month that would help me deal with the relentless drilling. I work late nights in a restaurant and being woken up at 7 ish every morning is really taking its toll - I’m sure I’m not the only one who is beginning to crack!

Any info appreciated - had a scroll just now but can’t see a deadline date.

Thanks,

They say 10 March, but no way will they finish it in 10 days. I too, am fed up to the back teeth with it. The constant nose, from 7am in the morning, drilling, and beeping from lorries reversing, and the absolute hassle of having to faff around getting buses to lordship lane and wasting time waiting in the morning in the morning. I am disabled and have spent a fortune on taxis as I find it difficult to walk far or stand for long. Wouldnt mind, but it looks likea complete eyesore outside the job centre and Syvan Post. Those huge tree planters are just going to end up as huge litter bins, like the planters at the station.

…not to mention them forming a nice comfortable spot for the town’s street drinkers

I have been assured that the road will open by 12th March.
I guess I have my fingers crossed a bit, but there does seem to be quite a few workers working on it.

Glad I am not the only one thinking this way.

I’m looking forward to it on a nice summer’s day.

Ha!
And the Carling Special Brews are on me!

I think you can but six for a fiver at the off licence across the road.

Two cans of that stuff knocks you over… I just love it!

What a nightmare at the bus stop outside the former Woodman pub on Kirkdale during the afternoon school run.

As there’s demolition work, there’s a fence which blocks most of the pavement, which led to 40/50 kids blocking the pavement as the buses aren’t running along Dartmouth Road.

We have been informed that due to the extremely cold weather work has not been possible on the road (the materials will not set properly below 3 degree). For this reason the road is NOT scheduled to reopen on 11th March. The exact opening day will be confirmed in due course - once the impact of the cold has been fully understood, but the contractors are keen to get back to work.

The Street Party will still be going ahead on 10th March on Dartmouth Road, on the section of road that will be shut to traffic.

Anyone know the organisation behind this? I want to contact them.

My daughter and friend - both schoolgirls at Sydenham School - have been made to feel very uncomfortable by some very overt staring from the workmen. Apparently they actually stop what they are doing to do it. Ridiculous. Especially in these sensitive #metoo times.

Kier Highway Services Ltd – London Highways Alliance Contractor are carrying out these works on behalf of London Borough of Lewisham.
Although I expect the actual work is subbed out to various others…

Great, I’ll start there. Many thanks, Nick.

Has anyone noticed the rubbish bins on Dartmouth road haven’t been collected in a while? I now have a build up of rubbish bags outside my front door.

Also there’s a car park off Dartmouth road (possibly servicing the shop owners or private flats somewhere, not sure?) and the bins there haven’t been collected since before Christmas! Now it’s a big fly tip… have been trying the council with no luck so far and have tweeted them again no luck!

What’s the point in all the nice road resurfacing when there’s old rubbish all over the place?! Grrrrr

Yesterday I had email from a resident and I have escalated it to the refuse team. If the rubbish is not picked up by tomorrow can someone let me know and I will jump up and down…

Thank you Maja, yes will keep my eye on it, thanks for your help!

Dear Maja
There were still piles of rubbish along Dartmouth Road yesterday even in parts of the road not closed. Along with ever growing graffiti…would it be possible to contact the council again to alleviate both problems. Thank you.

You could try the ‘fix my street’ app which I’ve found the best way to report things to the council.

Thank you Pea. I have used that before but as Maja had already had contact and an assurance it would be fixed, I thought I would let her know that it has not been. I know these are difficult circumstances but it’s beginning to look like the winter of discontent on Dartmouth Road…am sure it will look wonderful when finished however.

Has anyone seen a recent estimate for when the road will reopen?

I’ll speak to Curtis tomorrow and get an update

There is an app? This sounds great, can you report uncollected rubbish etc? We are having real problems with rubbish in Longfield Crescent.

Yes - you can report missed collections. More info and links in this topic

I reported some rubbish on Dartmouth Rd via Fix My Street on Saturday. The more of us that report the more pressure can be brought to bear. It is easier if you take a photo before starting to file the report.

Yes you just upload a pic and add comments. I’ve found it the only way to get the council to do things as it’s completely transparent and they have to update when it’s fixed. Good luck.

Dear Maja and all
Just to say the bin men have arrived today on Dartmouth Road. Thanks to a concerted effort by all.

The Tarmac is being laid on the Road at the end of next week, so D Rd will be open for vehicles Saturday 31st March.

Thanks for the update Pauline

Can I drive as far @leafandgroove at the mo. Have bags of books that I would like to deliver.

You can park right outside if you approach from the other direction.

I dropped a box of books off to @leafandgroove the other week. Came down Derby Hill (a bit hairy with works vehicles coming the other way!). Parked outside the @TheArchieParker. Delivered books, had lunch. Lovely.

Yes you can but the parking restrictions are back in place it would seem so you can only park for 30mins.

A resident of Century Yard is finding it impossible to get home by car. They have tried contacting Kier and the Council and are asking ’

Now that everyone is used to the closure can we ask to pedestrianise it?

Who would you ask? I have been trying to research the decision-making process in Lewisham, without success.

If only life were so simple. Not too sure people who require regular vehicle access would like that too much. Nor those who can’t get buses from near their homes etc.

Perhaps just let the buses back but not the cars. The local residential area has benefited from the reduction in commuter and other nuisance parking.

I’m intrigued - how do you define “nuisance parking”? Or indeed, commuter parking?

Nuisance parking on Dartmouth Road is pretty obvious: it’s the cars parked half on the kerb narrowing the road just enough so that buses can’t pass when there is traffic in the oncoming lane.

Nuisance parking - People who drive to Forest Hill from Greater London and Kent, then park for free in residential roads in Forest Hill and get a train to work in central London. They will return once the road is open again. We need CPZ to stop it, then people will be able to park and use local businesses, and stop blocking residents in FH from parking anywhere near their properties.

But how am I going to spend my summers, sat outside Sylvan Post watching buses trying to pass each other with cars parked either side

Hours of entertainment (I drive but not in London). Honestly it would take ages for vehicles to pass and people would have to encourage each other to go for it…

Well let’s allow buses and deliveries as well as residents to use the road maybe that’s an entertainment compromise

All it is going to take is one vehicle parked slightly on the road, two buses won’t be able to pass, and god forbid a fire engine or ambulance is behind them on route to an emergency.

Alternative venue - seats outside the Greyhound will make a perfect spot for watching the chaos that is the Cobb’s Corner roundabout.

I think there a greater measure of vitriol in the arguments that ensue when things go wrong there.

Especially if they put a Nando’s there !

Had not thought that one through.

Do you think they will use the chicken pieces as ammo when the bun fights start ?

Chicken bones, obviously! lol

Anyway, back down the road to Dartmouth and the grand reopening. Will be interesting to see how it flows now for sure. As for emergency vehicles getting stuck, always such a painful thing to see.

… how it flows

which makes me think of an earlier post about updating of water pipes under the new road. There’s been a classic leak running for the last few days at the London Road end. I’m sure someone is doing something about it though I’ve not seen any water repair type vans around.

It doesn’t matter what the road and parking designs are, people will still park selfishly. At least you are getting a really nice around to walk around in.

I wonder if they are changing some designs as notices have gone up on the lamposts about traffic calming measures on side streets, parking spaces and restrictions on junctions, seems a bit late (although in keeping with the project ) if they are finishing next weekend.

Hi @MajaHilton
Is the estimate for these works and breakdown of cost in the public domain at all?
Or would I have to go through FOI?
Thanks

I would think that the works amounts are/will be in the public domain. Certainly all expenditure ove £250 is published (it may be a bit difficult to add it all up per project) on a monthly basis. https://www.lewisham.gov.uk/mayorandcouncil/aboutthecouncil/finances/council-spending-over-250/Pages/default.aspx

There would be no design changes at this point. I had asked to review where the new trees would go, and was told that they would be straight replacements as any changes to the design at this stage were not possible.

Contingency was not fully spent, so were not over the budget but it was now very low.

According to https://lewisham-consult.objective.co.uk/file/3715291 the funding comes from TfL - I’d expect their accounts to be transparent.

If I remember correctly the funding from TfL was approx £600k spread across 2 years.

In comparison the changes to Sydenham High Street cost around £3m about five years ago.

Bang-on as usual Michael!

Does anyone know why the burst pipe in Dartmouth road is now a pond and a river and has been for about three weeks. Can it not be stopped?

What’s the latest on the road re-opening? No trains this weekend are the buses an option to get to Sydenham?

I know that there is a rail replacement bus service on Sat/Sun. Today and Saturday the 122 and 171 is diverted as one side of Brockley Rise is closed (Thames Water repairs by the Jenner Practice) and they are diverted through HOP, missing the centre of Forest Hill and going to top of Kirkdale and thence down to Sydenham. Perhaps that is what the rail replacement buses will do.

Thank you for this

How’s the traffic flowing now that the road’s got it’s shiney new tarmac surface?

Not open and no tarmac yet.

I reckon another couple of weeks. There are now a quarter of the workers. It is a bit of a joke. One worrying thing though - the bus stop outside the jewellers says that it will also be a stop for rail replacement buses. Replacement buses always wait for 10 mins or so after the train arrives at the station, and normally wait in London Road etc. There is nowhere for them to wait in Dartmouth Rd…

Seeing how often rail replacement buses are called into play at Forest Hill, maybe they should lose some of the forecourt parking, reshape the planter a bit and have a bus stop on site.

And lose valuable parking revenue? Oh heavens no lol.

I agree totally with you mate.

Having used the replacement buses this weekend they didn’t pass through Forest hill central to catch one you needed to be at stop T past Horniman down the hill. Really convenient!

The bus stops at the bottom of Honor Oak Road? They’re not really capable of having loads of passengers from Forest Hill waiting for the bus.

I suspect what happened today was that passengers just got the 185 and filled them to the brim.

Curtis had to wait for Thames Water to fix the water fountain at the end of the Road by Bunka & opposite.

He told me it was fixed by them eventually last Friday, so all steam ahead now hopefully

Thanks for the update Pauline.

I notice there’s some tarmacing machinary starting to gather at the bottom end of Thorpeward Avenue - hopefullythis is the signs of the beginning of the end

There is some serious shrub and plant planting going on in the big circles outside the job centre…looking good.

L O L - I love that picture!

Just walked up dartmouth road to have a look at the works, really like it and will look great once finished

I came down there yesterday on my bike and there still seems a lot to be done.
But at least the tidal flow from the leak near the lights has been stopped…

Likewise - only because I have a pile of books to drop off at the second hand book store and wouldn’t mind getting them out of my flat and in there! :0)

Any movement on the reopening? TfL said the work would be finished by Saturday when I asked about the diverting of the buses.

If you come in form the Kirkdale end you can get almost as far as the Sylvan Post.
I dropped loads of books off at Leaf and Groove a week or so ago…

As far as I know & please don’t quote me, the Tarmac will be laid next Thursday and Friday & D Rd will be open this next coming Saturday!

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE SUPPORT THE LOCAL TRADERS ON D RD DURING THIS AS ONE HAS CLOSED AND ANOTHER FEW ARE SAYING THEY MIGHT HAVE TOO.

WAS A SHOCK TO SEE BB & FRIENDS EMPTY ON A SUNDAY MORNING & TO KNOW SOME FELLOW TRADERS ARE HAVING TO SEND STAFF HOME.

THE TRADE HAS DWINDLED CONSISTANTLY EVERY WEEK THE ROAD IS CLOSED TO THE POINT OF HAVING HARDLY ANY CUSTOMERS NOW!

Personally I have read 3 books this week due to not having many customers, it’s really disheartening & I’m worried if this goes on much longer we won’t have many shops left on D Rd.

So please support the shops & businesses on D Rd while this continues if you want to keep them. Thanks

Thanks for popping by today @armadillo was lovely that Josh came to spend his pocket money he made me smile

Sounds like the local trade has taken a real beating over the past months, which is terrible, given the hard work so many local traders put in to establish and maintain some great businesses.

As a side, maybe this put the reality of pedestrianisation into perspective.

Really hope the road is opened again soon and normality returns for the businesses. Hope there is some way of claiming some sort of compensation for the extended loss of trade due to the over running.

Sadly there is no compensation:

That’s not on! Especially given how long things seem to have over run. Or maybe it just seems like a lifetime.

Who has closed? I saw @Anotherjohn mention that a business was closing.

I understand further problems are being caused by the proposed closure of the banks, which are used by local shops.
There is rubbish strewn behind Dartmouth Rd in places and some missed collections from bins. I have reported these this morning.

Margot

The “compensation” surely will be the greatly improved public realm which will no doubt make the street far more attractive to shoppers than it was previously.
I’ve been walking down the road for the first time in a while yesterday and was amazed by what I saw. In particular what looks like new greenery, the choice of quality materials (compare that to the cheap new concrete paving on Lordship Lane) and the general attention to detail will make it look far more inviting - even once car traffic has returned. It still won’t win any prizes for urban design but it looks far better than one could have hoped for.

What may have helped is a big sign at the beginning of the road saying that shops are still open, although yesterday many weren’t and it was very quiet in general, but then the trains weren’t running so that may have added to it.

Signs like these?

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This is an update I received. Like many residents and businesses I am deeply frustrated at how long a week is, but I guess it will be worth the wait in the end.

I’ve just returned from a site visit to check progress. The primary cause of delay has been getting utilities companies on site to carry out necessary works. The most serious delay has been caused by Thames Water who took 8 weeks to repair a water leak reported in mid February and it has not been possible to progress the work near the junction with the A205 until the repair was complete. The reported leak coincided with the cold snap and I assume that Thames Water has been under unusually high pressure to repair leaks since then.

UK Power Networks were also causing delays to the work opposite Paddy Power but this has now been completed and works in the area to install gulleys has now completed. BT have advised lately of some of their future needs and this has been integrated into the scheme and is being completed at the moment to prevent damage to the scheme following completion.

All this utility work needed completing before the carriageway could be resurfaced and this resurfacing is now scheduled to take place from Mon 16th – Weds 18th with the road reopen from Thursday the 19th April. I am told there is now nothing outstanding that could get in the way of these dates. There’s a bit of paving to be completed in the main stretch of the high street but this is now coming on quickly and should be finished soon. The reinstatement of the works storage area outside Forest Lodge will be the last area to complete and the current estimated completion point is mid May.

I will ask Kier to clear the high street of their clutter as they complete each area so that the return towards normality is noticeable, even if the works are not totally complete.

I may need to clarify, the very first update that we had a week of works do finish was done at the beginning of March. Then it was a following week, then again a week.

I still hope that the road will reopen on 19th April this year.

That’s not what I’ve heard from a local business. I’ve heard that the primary cause of delay is that the guys do the work, the foreman arrives at the end of the week, shakes his head, waves his arms and then the work has to be redone again - properly.

Assuming businesses survive the downturn in trade that they’re suffering in the meantime, during this much longer than anticipated road closure.

I really hope it’s next week. The closure of Dartmouth Road in all honesty has led me to come into the town centre less and I’ve been using Sydenham or East Dulwich over the last two months.

Was the reason that you couldn’t drive and park on dartmouth road or was it that you didn’t find it inviting to go shopping on a building site, would be interesting to know why people kept away

I get the impression that the effect of closing a road off to vehicular traffic, be it temporarily, or as a pedestrianisation exercise can have far deeper effects that it would first appear. Especially in areas where suitable parking is not possible.

Just as footfall, I guess sometimes, through traffic is also important to certain businesses and their sustainability.

The lack of buses will also have made it harder to get to Dartmouth Road. The introduction of two bus stops in the centre of the shops should help to bring shoppers to the town centre.

Dartmouth road has had nearly double the amount of parking since its closure. Cars are parked now on both sides with a lot of cars parked on the northside from the library up to Derby Hill and on the other side in the official parking places. I don’t think this additional parking has brought any trade from the most recent reports which I think goes against the myth, the easier it is to park somewhere, the more trade you will get, life normally seems to suggest otherwise which is why I would agree that more bus stops causing people to walk will improve footfall and trade.

Most of those cars belong to residents and people who are working nearby, which has actually reduced the parking spaces available to shoppers on Dartmouth Road. I do agree with the prediction that the new bus stops will help with footfall in the mid-section of Dartmouth Road though.

I can also see that the opening of the bus route will improve footfalll, however I don’t think the opening of the road will , my hope is that the improvements will make dartmouth road more attractive, in my opinion dartmouth road needs a large tenant to attract more footfall, I always find myself walking up London road towards Sainsbury’s and pick up shopping around the shops there but very seldom venture up dartmouth road which also has to do that most shops are closed when I arrive back from work. I understand of course that the shops cater for the day crowd I am just giving my reason why I don’t often visit except for the nightine economy of course

The cuts in bus services to Forest Hill have been too dramatic. Normally there are three bus routes to Forest Hill from Dulwich, this has been reduced to the 185 which since the works is overcrowded, while the 176 and 197 run near empty along Kirkdale and Sydenham Hill.

Sydenham would have almost certainly benefited from bus traffic coming straight from Lordship Lane. There should have been more forward planning on the bus front from TfL, such as diverting the 176 to Forest Hill during this time to relieve pressure on the 185.

I haven’t noticed much change to the 122, this maybe down to the fact that it only affects Dartmouth Road bus stops compared to the 176 and 197 which also serve Hornimans.

Totally agree on the bus front - I suspect that’s had more to do with the lack of footfall than the road being closed. Those driving have still been able to access the pools and library (detours feels shorter in a car) and from all accounts, parking has almost been easier.

I seem to recall reading (although specific sources escape me) that providing better public transport, cycling and more pleasant pedestrian routes tend to bring more to local shops than simply parking. Those on buses/bikes and feet tend to spend longer in an area and it’s easier for them to hop on and off and stop into interesting places. The Dartmouth Road closure hasn’t been great for any of those groups.

Okay, sorry, I cut out your buses/ bikes bit to emphasise the point that I’ve been banging-on about for 18 months; and I make no apology for doing it again.

Repeat - ‘THOSE ON FEET TEND TO SPEND LONGER IN AN AREA’

So, park your car FREE for 2 hours in Perry Vale or Sainsburys car park and after 90 seconds on foot you’ll be at the start of Dartmouth Road. Hopefully, you’ll spend a while popping into a few shops and eateries and when more people have cottoned-on to this the footfall on Dartmouth Road will increase, existing shopkeepers will be taking money again and other traders will see the area as being commercially viable, which will lead to new businesses wanting to move in.

I still think that there are a few traders who will see an opportunity to pick up a bit of trade from the up-to 7:30pm commuter trade, like our very own @anon10646030.

Then imagine Superdrug would have opened in heron house ( or Iceland , Lidl, m&s) than you would have another 300+ people walking up and visiting shops on their way up and down, I said it before I really like the look of Dartmouth road now and hope there will be good times ahead

Although it sounds counter-intuitive, I think making parking more difficult in the residential areas beside Dartmouth Road would be good for the shops. I think easy and free parking contributes very little to the shops and is detrimental for the residents not being able to park near their houses. It encourages them to destroy their gardens and put in ugly municipal paving driveways which take away the pollution reduction effects of trees, hedges and lawns.

And possibly station commuters too. As I understand, there have been no parking restrictions on those spaces so cars have been taking up space all day, making it more difficult for daytime shoppers and people who need their hair and nails seen to.

Those pesky commuters have been at it again taking up spaces that should be reserved for shoppers and residents but what can we do?

Presumably when the road opens there will be double yellow lines except in the limited time parking bays - which are effectively reserved for shoppers.

The fight for spaces between residents and commuters / traders / teachers and other shoppers will continue.

I wouldn’t say the buses are running near-empty on Kirkdale – it has actually been a boon for people living on Sydenham Hill to have more bus service than previously, especially for older people. I agree this doesn’t help traders on Dartmouth Road/London Road. But to have more bus service up the hill than the twice-an-hour 356 has been great.

I’ve been told that what can be done is now being done: parking restrictions are now being enforced after several weeks of them letting them go.

I’m not going to engage in a discussion about the rights and wrongs of parking restrictions and who should have priority - but simply making the point that the reason why the greater availability of parking spaces is not resulting in greater footfall for local businesses is possibly because a lot of vehicles are parked on Dartmouth Road all day while their owners are in Londontown.

We will move the problem back onto the residential streets without parking restrictions until they decide that they have had enough and want their own parking restrictions as the traffic gets worse. It would be good to see the council do something to improve the roads that form the Dartmouth Road car park. It seems a waste that they put in a conservation area but want to encourage its use as a car park.

I remain surprised if not shocked that everything hasn’t been renewed underneath Dartmouth Road. If it had been then there surely would be no surprise water leak causing (an 8 week!) delay. MajaHilton seems to imply that utility updates were a part of the planning but if so it doesn’t seem to be particularly great planning.

Walking along Dartmouth Road I’m not that impressed with the quality of work. Lots of poorly aligned and chipped slabs and, as I’ve mentioned before, falls to drains are wrong so there is a build up of muck and grime deposited where rainwater pools at the low point before the drain.

One more thing I don’t understand - the parking/loading bay outside the beauty shop / Woodland stores isn’t wide enough to accommodate a vehicle. What’s the story there - looks like anything parking there would either be half on the road or, most likely, half on the pavement.

Hey ho.

Or maybe not.

I agree with you. It looks a total mess. One section of the road the paving slabs are mixed, others they are plain. They have oil stains all over the them, and when dogs mess is left it stains them. Very poor quality materials.

Hi @Foresters
Yes Thames Water was encouraged from the start of planning to replace all services, but they are a as someone has put it ‘law to themselves’ and chose not to. It is difficult for the Council or TFL to forsce them to renew pipes if they don’t want to.

As the saying goes, you can take a horse to water, but you can’t make it drink.

I am aware of the snagging list, but I will welcome anyone to meet me on Wednesday 7.15pm to inspect work done at that point. Although the Tarmac will be laid, area in front of Forest Lodge will still be work in progress.

That will be loading bay only if I am not mistaken. As far as I know it meets minimum width standard and it should be just enough to park on it. I guess opening the doors should be done with care to other road or pavement users.

The parking bays are not wide enough for a delivery van without blocking the pavement. The florist van won’t be able to park near the shop without blocking the road. Ditto every other business requiring parking for anything larger than a mini. Did the moron who designed the reconfiguration e er gist the site?

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Thanks @InTheNightGarden

Oh dear. If you don’t mind can I use the picture when I ask the questions please?
Maja

No problem. As long as you don’t campaign for putting the street back to how it was! I couldn’t stand another 6 months of this!

I think the photo above is slightly unrepresentative: The van has parked very badly; if it had parked properly (so that it was as far in the bay as possible) then I think it wouldn’t be blocking the road (it would probably be level with where the double yellow lines begin) and it wouldn’t be blocking the pavement. And as Ms Hilton said these are supposed to be loading bays, not parking bays. Again that comes back to ensuring parking is properly enforced on Dartmouth Rd which I still think is going to be the factor that determines whether the redesign is a success or a gigantic waste of money.

There is a loading bay like that on the railway bridge on Sydenham Road. It’s designed to take the van partly off the carriageway without eating into too much of the pavement. It is usually possible to pass with care, even on that very busy road.

Vehicles should be taken off the roadway completely! The width of the narrowed road is the width of two buses (not including mirrors) plus about 12 inches. I have been stuck on a bus for 20 minutes because people have parked on Dartmouth Road when it was wider. God forbid a fire engine needs to get through, as they have to go the long way round because two buses are gridlocked.

So just to summarise what the other three solutions available here to the planners would have been:

1. No loading bay
2. No footway
3. One-way traffic carriageway

Any chance that any of these options that would have pleased everyone? Thought not. The result can be seen on the photo - in my view a good compromise as long as the bay is actually used for loading only, which should be at limited times.

Remember, though, this a bay for loading, not parking. The driver will be there and able to move if necessary.

They could have put loading bays outside Heron House, where they have built the giant litter bins, or opposite the pools, where they think it is necessary 20 feet wide. Or the delivery drivers could park in the station car park. Make Dartmouth Road a red route. Any part of a vehicle over any part of road should be instant fine.The delivery drivers have trollies. I work in Central London, and you can’t park outside the majority of premises. So the drivers use a barrow, or in the case of draymen, a heavy duty trolley and walk the two or three minutes to the delivery address.

I have to agree on this point.
The “use” of the pavement spaces on the two locations where the pavements are vast, while “pleasing on the eye” apparently to some, has been a lost opportunity IMO.

I am going to reserve judgement till after it opens. This loading bay is probably by design, some might say it is very economical with space but I trust Maja will ask the appropriate question. I am just waiting for the buses to stop again, I have missed them.

Buses can barely pass each other. I still can’t believe that – considering this was the main problem with the road – the choice was to narrow rather than widen it.

I am not at all looking forward to the road reopening and the greatly increased journey time on the buses. The current diversion makes getting to work a lot quicker.

I believe the objective was to create a better pedestrian environment and encourage more people into the shops.

Busses and trapped cars pumping diesel fumes and honking horns - a mile-long tailback of furious drivers, delayed on their commutes, stuck in their cars on the main shopping street of Forest Hill.

I’m not convinced this will create a better pedestrian environment.

I said exactly the same thing on the other forum back in April 2015 when the consultation was open -
I have been looking at this and my solution (breaking a few eggs!) would be to insert camera-enforced double red lines (as it is affects the movement of buses and traffic on Tfl’s junction on the Sth Circ) and very strong bollards all the way through the bottle-neck right out to the kerb line to protect pedestrians. This would unfortunately prevent loading and unloading for the traders along that part of the road so, to compensate for this, there would have to be a re-jigging of the wider pedestrian areas extending from the bottom of Derby Hill to the betting office to provide some strictly enforced loading bays.

You’re right. Lets pedestrianise it and create a people/family friendly environment compkete with sidewalk cafe lifestyle. Or limit access to buses only.

What’s a 'sidewalk cafe lifestyle ‘? Cluttering up the pavements with tables and chairs where trendy young people can sit playing with their laptops, nursing "flat whites’, whatever they are, and getting in the way of the rest of us who have a train to catch?

Yep. That. Glorious.

Completely agree Mr @Anotherjohn

“I said exactly the same thing on the other forum back in April 2015 when the consultation was open -
I have been looking at this and my solution (breaking a few eggs!) would be to insert camera-enforced double red lines (as it is affects the movement of buses and traffic on Tfl’s junction on the Sth Circ) and very strong bollards all the way through the bottle-neck right out to the kerb line to protect pedestrians. This would unfortunately prevent loading and unloading for the traders along that part of the road so, to compensate for this, there would have to be a re-jigging of the wider pedestrian areas extending from the bottom of Derby Hill to the betting office to provide some strictly enforced loading bays”

Nice idea, but in reality, they don’t, and within a few minutes there are tailbacks behind each bus, leading back to the station, causing a jam on the south circular. I use the bus on this route every day, I see it with my own eyes.Friday evenings were dreadful with customers parked outside the hill. You end up sitting on a bus for twenty minutes because drivers are trying to move their cars to ease the jam, but can’t as a result of backed up traffic. Thank god the Hill is no longer open as the customers were a nightmare, but that’s a whole new thread.

I don’t dispute that, @InTheNightGarden, I’ve been in those tailbacks too. I was responding to the situation where an emergency vehicle gets stuck - if the bay is being used for loading and sirens are wailing, I do think the driver will move.

As I understand it, the parking rules will be different when the road reopens. While illegal parking was a big problem, legal parking on the single yellow lines in the evening and at weekends was also a big issue. As has been said before, we need a few weeks of rigorous enforcement and handing out parking tickets when the road reopens.

All the more galling, knowing that this was the council’s intention all along. £1.5M of taxpayers’ money spent on an ideological zero-sum game played against drivers.

Designed to support their “popular” borough-wide 20mph project.

The more the road becomes a nightmare for drivers the less they will hopefully use it so only a win win in my books, hopefully they stick to the alternatives used over the last 6 month

What you just described is not a win-win. It is the definition of a zero-sum game.

All getting a bit serious and doom mongering here isn’t it?

Guess once it is open and up and running, we will all get to see how it works. I am sure there will be plenty of humble pie consumed.

Hopefully, for the time and money it’s taken, it will work out. Even if those giant planters are stoopid.

Still a win win in my book

Why take this thread into politics / bashing the 20mph limit?

I’m not sure anyone has brought politics into the discussion.

The reason the 20mph limit is relevant is outlined in this council document explaining the reason for the Dartmouth Roadworks themselves. This is fundamentally linked to the traffic issues that were brought up earlier in this topic this morning.

Have to agree with @Dave here. Getting very close to the mark of local politics. And a clear distaste for their policies.

Well as chrisbeach pointed out in the zero-sum game post you can’t have your cake and eat it

As much as I would like to have double red lines on Dartmouth Road, it is not in Council power to install them.

Therefore double yellow lines is best we can do, and as someone mentioned a lot of problems were caused by then legal parking on single yellow lines.

And to remind everyone, the road narrowing should still be sufficient for two buses to pass each other with some spare room. This is obviously not enough to pass a parked car on the road, but even prior the works busses could not pass each other when someone was parked on the road. Therefore narrowing the road should not create extra congestion in itself.

It seems demand for parking in the area is quite high, so hopefully people will start using Perry Vale car park and walk few minutes to the shops. I did my best to increase free time to 2 hours, which may be reverted back if found not to be used. I will certainly ask for the trial period to be extended for another year as my agrgument will be, that the roadworks created quite a bit of parking space that was used, which I assume will be diverted to Perry Vale car park after the works finish.

I think thread should stay focussed on any snagging and other issues of concern we can usefully raise now. When the road reopens we can have a new thread to monitor issues that arise. Threads that are full of nothing but speculation about what might happen tend to end up being circular and repetitive because there is no new information to inform the discussion.

Any ideological stance that may have been behind the road design is now irrelevant to the practicalities of what we have and how we want to ensure it’s the best it can be. Flaws in the design (if there are indeed flaws) will become apparent soon enough.

I would have thought the best place for a discussion about the politics that inform policy, especially with local elections coming up, is in Local Politics.

Totally agree.

Hi Maja,

The two hours free parking was a great idea and I think has helped to keep people going to the town centre. Indeed a footbridge from that car park would have been money better spent than the works on Dartmouth Road.

I didn’t realise it was a trial and I’d like to help keep it going, what can we do to help influence whoever makes those decisions?

Dan

The only real criticism is the bus stop positioning going towards London Road. The ‘Forest Hill Pools’ stop is too close to the other one by the library/primary school, while an opportunity to move the bus stop from outside Barclays to the Heron House complex has been lost.

The latter would have stopped issues where the 122 blocks the road, so the 176 and 197 block the rest of the carriageway.

So, road chaos and unhappy people aside, does the new update look good?

Going back to the planters & the flowers/trees that have been planted, I checked about how these would be looked after to keep the Rd looking nice.

They will be maintained for 2 years, though the green circular bushes apparently need a lot of attention.

I don’t have a clue on plants etc but spoke to a few that do including the fab Quetta that looks after what FHSoc plants around FH.

Myself & Zoe from @TheArchieParker will make sure the planting outside the job centre are watered & I’ll ask the Sylvan Post to do the same outside them, we’ll also remove any rubbish when we can & Quetta has said she’ll help when she can too.

It would be great if anyone sees rubbish in these planters when passing if they could remove it & bin it please.

Maja @MajaHilton I’ll meet you on Wednesday evening at 7.15.

Where shall we meet on D Rd, Library & work down?

P

“I am aware of the snagging list, but I will welcome anyone to meet me on Wednesday 7.15pm to inspect work done at that point. Although the Tarmac will be laid, area in front of Forest Lodge will still be work in progress.”

Do we have any surveyors or experienced large-scale construction people who might be able to help Maja and Pauline with this please?

YES PLEASE, if any locals work in this area it would help massivly!

I will obviously take notes and share, but I am not clued up on this kind of work

To be honest, because of the length of time it’s taken to get this far, you forget excactly what it was like before but, aesthetically, yes, I think it’s a massive improvement.
The paving slabs and block pavers are way nicer than the standard local authority standard issue stuff, most of which was cracked and uneven anyway.
Then there are the areas outside Heron House and the Sylvan Post with massive raised granite planters and street-socialising areas, which are kinda nice (I suppose).
I was always shouting out about the oppressive and overbearing trees outside the SP, so the new Silver Birches, for me, add a huge breath of fresh air to that space.
It’s such a shame that the area has had to suffer so badly for so long to get these improvements though.

I agree Mr

So many traders are suffering and it scares me the amount that are.

Thank god you are my landlord, I love you to bits & I don’t mind saying that.

You can tell me off all you like but I’ll still say the same.

You are a diamond Mr Man , and yeah I love you to bits as a person & a father figure to me, you are ace dude ️:heart:️

Library end sounds good place to start from. See you there.

Dan,
By using it more Council can offset small loss of revenue to support local businesses. If no increase in short term use is noticed it is hard to argue that free parking is needed to support local businesses.

Cool Maja, see you there

I’ll bring some sweets for the walk down the Road & some squash we can have at the library if we need to write notes afterwards

They said the road would be open on Thursday. Does anyone know the new invented date, because it will take a miracle if it opens this week. This awful for local traders.

Wednesday is the day I have & the Road is due to have tarmac laid tonight and tomorrow night.

Will get an update tomorrow

This whole exercise sounds like a repeat of the Ladywell street enhancements, even including existential threat to businesses due to work delays. There were a number of naysayers about the finished product there too but I do think that it has had, and continues to have, a regenerative impact. I think it very likely this will do the same for Dartmouth Road.

This ‘snagging list’… is it internal to the contractor or is it public? Have the numerous comments / complaints made on these pages been incorporated into it and marked as things to be looked at? Obviously this is ‘just’ a forum and not an official channel so I wonder if it’s a case of anything said on SE23 stays on SE23?

The snagging list is created by the representatives of the contracted parties - normally led by the client’s agent (the client pays the bills after all) and must be satisfied that work conforms to specification and standards.

In some cases where the client’s agent is aware in advance of publicly stated concerns, these points may be addressed during the snagging process.

The publication of this list almost never happens…

Was any new road surface laid last night? How’s it looking, if so?

Ha ha! You’re optimistic aren’t you? Give it another month. Don’t know why people bother asking the contractor company, they just say the first date that comes into their head!

No Tarmac has been laid on the Road yet, there is also another issue with pipes that need to be checked before being covered.

So @MajaHilton are we still going ahead tomorrow evening or do we wait until the tarmac has been laid?

P

Yes @Pauline, let’s still meet
I was not going to inspect the road surface, but what has been done on the pavements so far.

Okay, see you at the library at 7.15pm x

Is there somebody that we can contact at Lewisham Council to become involved in this saga? It is absolutely disgusting the way this is dragging on. It is beyond inconvenience for local residents, and seriously affecting the local traders. Business may be closed as a result of Kiers inaction. Does anybody have a contact number or email for the contractors?

Does anyone know what the large circular things are outside sylvan post?im very confused by those!

Im Dartmouth resident for circa a year. And it feels like roadworks are all i have known! Just back from 2 weeks holiday and astonished at the lack of progress.

From the image shared by @Michael

image903×671 188 KB

Hangover pills

Do you mean the bit in the diagram labelled as “resin bound gravel surrounding existing trees”?

I have always assumed the answer is a flat surface more porous than normal paving and allowing for a certain amount of shifting for tree roots. Not sure exactly what the plan is with new trees but i doubt it will be much different. Hopefully it is flat rather than a massive raised bed.

Myself & @MajaHilton did a walk around this evening with @anon51837532 helping us and it was very constructive.

Please be assured that anything we can do to help we will be doing.

@MajaHilton especially with suggestions from @anon51837532

Massive Thanks John for all your suggestions, very much appreciated.

And massive thanks Maja for pushing where it needs to be pushed.

Thanks both & hopefully after this evening we can get D Rd opened sooner rather than later.

Thanks both
P

We looked at this this evening & the covering of the circles/ovals with trees in will be resin which means it will be a flat surface & will work well for us to do occasional events like markets, street parties etc.
Saw the electricity point we can possibly have for future events & think it might work.

So from events point of view from us I think that will work & the space should work too as we can use all the available space on that pavement, but we will have to check when all works are done to be sure.

Speak soon to check this out @Michael

One thing I am worried about is that there will be about 8/9 single chairs installed outside Paddy Power.

Benches are out of the question for obvious reasons (street drinkers sleeping) which I agree with. The chairs look lovely but they will be covered in graffiti & damaged in no time

Everyone agrees this is a bad idea, I have seen the design & they look great bot NOT A GOOD IDEA.

I haven’t seen the chair design so might be wrong. There are single chairs dotted around Brixton - in small groups of 2 or 3. They’re arranged in such a way that you have the option for sociability or solitude.
They’ve been there for a few years without being abused but while being used.

https://goo.gl/images/tnxhYr

I have to say i think it would be nice to have the chairs.

Single chairs can work well and look good. They are also probably really easy to clean off any graffiti (just like the underpass).

Here’s an example from Lower Marsh in Lambeth/Waterloo

image1261×846 465 KB

Also from Lower Marsh are the Barrel Planters which we have plans to install on Perry Vale alongside the type towers.

image1164×693 313 KB

Do we have a finalised date for the reopening of the road?

10th August. And that’s being optimistic!

Hopefully next week!

And just checked about the chairs & they will be bolted to the ground

In the top picture, it looks as if a few of the chairs are arranged around the garbage bin. I hope we don’t have this.

Are you sure - picture is not to clear - perhaps a public barbecue ?

I just can’t believe the attitude of some people on this forum. Let it become a nightmare for drivers you say.how very selfish

Is that directed at me ?

Shome mishtake surely.

No sorry!

Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android

I think there’s been some trolling directed towards drivers on this topic, which is a shame, and pretty rare on this forum.

As with all trolling, best not to respond. And I should take my own advice…

Continuing the discussion from Dartmouth road works and the effect on small businesses:

Kelly, Dartmouth Road’s first nail bar est.2001, will be very grateful for @Helen_Holden 's sweet gesture of support.

There was another issue with Thames Water that wasn’t resolved when myself @MajaHilton & @anon51837532 had a look around last night, BUT this has now been resolved & Thames Water have finally given the go ahead today

I’m also a bit more optimistic about the 8/9 single chairs that will be situated outside Paddy Power as after speaking to Curtis today they will be bolted into the ground.

I also spoke to @Michael this evening & we should be able to clean any graffiti from them that possibly might appear.

Massive thanks to @anon51837532 for all his help

Whilst both yours and Michael’s efforts are most appreciated, should it not be the Council which maintains the chairs?

Possibly, but we’ll just do it anyway

I never said i would clean the chairs!
The council have good solvents to do this and can do a really good job, particularly on metal.

But we’ll always do it one way or another if no one else does x

@Helen_Holden thank you very much for your input

Hey guys we’ll get there eventually

Yes! a footbridge. Excellent idea and one that has been mulled over chez Cato for a while. Cllr Maja, is there any chance that this could happen. Don’t underestimate how little people are willing to walk to get to even a good, attractive high street.

Would we be spending money in the right place? Free parking and a new footbridge costing millions when we have 2 already (station and German bridge).

More importantly, neither of these options are useful to people with mobility issues, or people with pushchairs. The only way to get from Perry Vale and its parking to Dartmouth Road without steps is to walk the long way around via the south circular.

This alone is reason to “fix” the issue.

The railway line divides our community. It divides our retail offering separating Dartmouth Road/London road from Perry Vale. We can do better.

Haven’t mastered uploading a photo and commenting. It is looking good

Apologies - I think our edits overlapped. I fixed the image by removing the spaces on the line with the image. Since we both edited at the same time, I may have won the race and killed the comment you added, sorry!

I don’t think a new footbridge will happen anytime in my lifetime.

This would cost many millions to construct & has been looked at in the past, but the cost would be astronomical!

Love the idea, but funding for something like this would be almost nonexistent

@Pauline don’t disagree but as a business woman on Dartmouth Road I’m sure you’d have preferred it to some new paving slabs? As a customer of I can tell you I would have!

Yes, definitely

Still some deep holes with pipes at the bottom of them as I walked past this morning. Ominous?

Hi Pauline

Are you sure this has been researched thoroughly - design, cost, and potential sources of funding? Bridges do get built, central government and EU both have funds for infrastructure projects. It’s a relatively modest project. I think it could be done, if there were the political will and leadership.

I’m not sure the EU will be building any bridges in Forest Hill in the foreseeable future.

Yes it has, and the funding needed is massive sadly.

I for one would love this, but it it would be extremely costly so highly unlikely

Sadly many shops and businesses are running at a loss right now on D Rd.

Please share some love and SHOP on D Rdt at your fav shops.

image830×553 23.8 KB

Big love

@MajaHilton is proactively pursuing options with council officers to attempt to expedite the opening of the road over the next few days - even if it is on a pro-tem basis.

Council Officers and the contractor have lapsed into a passive view that the existing excavation which prevents work progressing cannot be resolved quickly.

The explanation for this stance is not forthcoming as of this weekend.

Maja has confirmed her commitment to resume pursual of this issue on Monday 23 April.

In simple terms the overall state of readiness of the works means that if the last major hole in the road can be back filled soonest, the road can be re-opened immediately without completion of the road re-surfacing works.

Even if the resurfacing works to the road are delayed, it is deemed reasonable that resurfacing works will take a maximum of two working days after the hole is filled and made good.

Council officers need to apply pressure to the contractors to ensure this happens soonest. And by that Tuesday 24 April latest is a crucial date. - and the road should be opened the day after.

It is intolerable that the council cannot respond to the fact that a seven week overrun on a twelve week programme is having such a devastating impact on the survival of Dartmouth Road businesses.

Is there no compensation available from the council or contractors for the shops…for instance 6 months rates free to help them out in the short term?

We just need the Road open to get back to normal trade

I don’t want to see anymore shops closing!

The council will deny in all probability that compensation is due.

The contractor will also state that as he has no contractual obligation to individual businesses as they have no contract with them,

However a case might be made that the works have not been carried out diligently and in a timely fashion and that the council has an obligation to ensure this was the case. Naturally this will be denied - but it may be worth pressing - and ultimately the Local Govt Ombudsman may have a role to play in determining liability.

I will be looking into this tomorrow, possibly a petition for the shops that have suffered most to bounce back rather than close

Might I suggest an alternative.

Each business could prepare a brief and accurate current balance statement (year on year comparison would be ideal) on their financial position since the start of the works.

@MajaHilton’s professionalism (accountancy as I understand it) will enable her to assemble a collective view of the financial impact and present this to council.

I would recommend that this be submitted to Steve Bullock - and as it will undoubtedly be one of his last actions, it might be the most effective route for action.

Great thought John, thanks I will share and pass on.

Have a great evening x

Hi Pauline, do you know where the info is? Is there a copy of the design and preliminary costing somewhere? Was it done by the Council or Forest Hill Society?

This is the kind of thing - with an election about to happen - that we should be asking for a commitment on - to at least commit to preliminary work on feasibility, design, potential sources of funding. Anyone going to the hustings tomorrow, please ask about this! I’ll be working so can’t go.

I’m open to any suggestions you have to put forward so please email me with any at sugarmountain.info@gmail.com
Tomorrow is my day off so I can have a serious look tomorrow afternoon.

Thanks
Pauline

Maybe I should run for Cllr next time after all!

We’ll see

Most contracts of this kind have standard penalties included for any overrun. If so whoever from tfl or the council who awarded the contract to Kier? and is controlling the money/contract has such a sum accumulated by now that could be used for compensation.

Perhaps when voting for new Mayor one should investigate which candidate will best serve the people when it comes to managing contractors.
My own experience with Lewisham Homes would indicate that there is a blind acceptance of estimates and the clarity of contractural conditions is sadly lacking.

The truth is that responsibility is obscured and voters/residents are in a state of mystification about who is accountable. This forum is full of comments on many threads which are plaintive cries for help without knowing who to contact. And those of us who have contacted the council have experience of being ignored or passed around, or given information which does not answer the question actually asked.

Enjoyed a three cheese toastie from Aga’s and some sweets this weekend.

And I refer the poster to my earlier comments, you (andI) pay their wages your power is in your vote Lewisham has been Labour for years if its not working for you change it.

As people are aware we are 10 days from the election. So something you suggest will not happen until after the election.

I will PM you more

Just to remind people that @MajaHilton is not standing for reelection next week so in her current capacity as local Councillor we will be losing her amazing insight into Council workings and her dedication to the Forest Hill community. I sincerely hope she continues to engage with the community in some similar way.

I’ve been amazed at the level of engagement Maja has with the Forest Hill community, both online and in person. And that she continues to be so engaged when most people would be sun-setting their jobs is a testament to her commitment that she continues to engage so close to the finish line.

TfL are saying Dartmouth Road closed until Sunday.

I had not seen that statement.

@MajaHilton has been in extensive discussion with council officers who report that there are still technical/practical issues with work in the one open hole on the carriageway. Until this excavation is re-instated and capped off - the road remains closed and re-surfacing cannot be done.

This can hardly be viewed as anything other than distressing for the DR businesses affected by the further delay.

And apart from failing to open the road - it will take at least two more weeks for Kier to complete the paving works and clear the site.

The Road will be open on 10th June.

@InTheNightGarden - on 19 April you posted that the road would open on 10th August (year unspecified) and today you post that it will open on 10th June (year unspecified).

Its curious - do you have an inside line to Kier’s ? Or are you just testing the forum to see if we pay attention to what you say ?

Or are you running a sophisticated Monte Carlo algorithm on known data about progress and it produces a different result everytime you run it ?

Just curious.

Is the remaining hole right in the middle of the road? If not, why keep the whole road closed. The cost to Kier of getting the resurfacing kit out twice surely needs to be weighed against the ongoing cost to local businesses of keeping the road completely closed.

How many days have we slipped from the planned reopening date?

I’m just pulling dates out of thin air - just like Keir does Just trying to lighten a depressing situation. Has anyone claimed responsibilty for the hole opposite The Hill? It seems that it is the only thing that needs attention (to a layman) apart from moving the excess slabs from outside The Bird in Hand. I’m waiting for them to put a notice on them - Free to a good home. They would look lovely in my garden! I’m sure they could be shifted overnight if they gave us permission.

The hole is on one carriageway and the responsibility is ultimately Kier’s Thames Water was for a time in the frame for delays and outstanding works - but new information says there may be other factors now.

Material is stored nearby on the other carriageway - but it probably could be moved quickly.

Plan to visit this afternoon whilst passing through if possible to a have another look.

@InTheNightGarden - understood and the efficacy of your approach could be the equal of or better than that of Kier’s.

ALL the contracting parties need to make a concerted and determined effort to finish this and open the road.

The latest information I managed to get is as follows

• the hole in front of Heron House (opposite the Hill) is indeed what is causing delays to resurfacing work. It is to do with drainage and there are some piping issues. Some parts were delivered today that had been ordered on Friday, but one bit was short delivered. To his credit Curtis has sent a man in a van to pick up this item from North London.

I have been reassured that once this part is on site, they can crack on to install it and then fill the hole with quick setting concrete. The plan is still to start the resurfacing on Wednesday night and to open the road for the weekend.

There will be still some work going on for possibly 2 more weeks, laying the last bit of paving and correcting the bits that have either not been finished or need remedial work. All this can be done while the road is open.

Better news Maja - thank you.There can always be last minute hiccoughs - and info on the quick setting concrete is welcome.

Evidence of qualities and delivery on your part that deserve to be classified as “over and above…”.

I trust that if you have taken up a watching brief that you have a flask of good tea or coffee with you.

After all the promise that the resurfacing will start Wednesday night, this email was sent to the Council officer later yesterday

I would just like to confirm that the drainage connection on Dartmouth Road next to Heron House will be completed by tomorrow midday that will then allow us to backfill and compact the sub base to the lower layers of the road construction.

As we will need to reinstate the carriageway to match the existing concrete carriageway by fixing Dowel bars and placing C32- C 40 High strength Concrete, the concrete will need time to cure before placing the Layers of Binder Course and Surface Course

The Concrete needs a minimum of 7 days Curing as we are using high early strength concrete we can reduce the curing time to 3 days dependant on weather conditions we would recommend that the resurfacing is carried out next Monday 30th April for 3 nights plus 1 night contingency starting south end of the project allowing extra time for the concrete to cure in the middle of the project .

Cutis will amend all surfacing information notices and extending the permit with our permitting manager.

I hate being lied to. In my professional time I have never given out deadlines I knew I could not keep. In fact I always would build in some contingency as I liked to sleep over on the finished reports before issuing them.

Oh how frustrating - you have my sympathy Maja. Well done for keeping the pressure up though!

Isn’t the overrun now almost as long as the project time?

Given the detriment to business I cannot believe that Lewisham Council would not consider compensation. As someone previously mentioned Kier is likely to be paying penalties. Why shouldn’t those penalties go to the businesses affected by this?

The local election is next week. I can’t help but feel that Kier is taking advantage of a system which is impotent in the weeks prior to an election.

Very disappointing @MajaHilton

But an issue not of your making and certainly outside your control.

I welcomed yesterday the reference to the quick setting concrete as it would avoid an extended curing period. However the introduction of the dowels to the specification, whilst viewed by the officers as being necessary, means that a clean edge cut to the existing concrete bed will be required. The drilling and insertion of these dowels could prove to be time consuming.

It is entirely foreseeable that this will not be an operation than can be completed rapidly.

As discussed yesterday about being fobbed off - it is entirely probable that the estimated times for the combined task is not adequate and will take longer than stated by the officer.

Kier will have to provide assurances that they have the required concrete cutting and drilling kit available and have the details of the dowelling agreed with and or approved by the council.

It is also noted that the council has returned to a three night estimate to execute the re-surfacing (with another 1 day contingency added making it 4 days) - as discussed we know this should take a maximum of two nights - including laying road markings.

Overall therefore the response from the council can only be viewed as not only being mendacious but unrealistic.

I plan to visit the site this morning in response to this post and take a view on the condition of the existing concrete bed.

I have always been a (cautious) supporter of the changes being made to Dartmouth Road, but I think the delay in actually getting them done has become faintly scandalous. It seems to be causing financial loss to local businesses and is certainly causing various degrees of inconvenience to local residents. Reasons cited for the delays have included bad weather, failure to supply materials on time and failure, it appears, to liaise effectively with utility companies. Overall there seems to have been a very low quality of project management. I wonder whether after the elections Lewisham borough should not be asked to do an investigation of what went wrong and why, and to make the results publicly available?

And compare notes with what happened in Ladywell too (why weren’t lessons learnt?). It is worth noting that the Mayor got involved and there was some business rate relief as a result:

The only problem with that is that quite a few micro businesses on DR already have rates rebates and don’t pay any businesses rates.

I just want the road to reopen ASAP as residents and traders are all suffering from this extended road closure.

I’d probably include landlords too for at least one seems to proactively work with their tenants for the betterment of all.

Site visit at lunchtime today with Maja.

Discussions with Maja reveal that the council’s project manager (PM) plans to move the road opening to next Tuesday night.

However despite earlier concerns (expressed by me) that the dowelling proposal might introduce significant delay, the contractor has today drilled the concrete beds and the dowels are in place. See picture evidence. The back-fill has almost reached the levels where concrete can be poured and reinforcement mesh was being laid.

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There was minimalist evidence that the existing concrete beds had any reinforcement but there was a small quantity evident.

Maja has written once more to the council PM suggesting that if the rapid setting concrete can be poured by end of business today or by early tomorrow morning latest, then the road surface stripping operation can start on Friday. There will be no need for the surface stripping machine to traverse the new concrete.

Given these revised proposals it is estimated that the road re-surface work (the actual laying of tarmac by a large machine) can start by Saturday and if the road marking team works in tandem the road could be opened immediately then. This would represent a three day improvement.

The downside will be whether the road team is available to work (and that could be night and/or day given that the road remains closed) and that adverse weather does not move in - the forecast suggest it will be ok - and whether and if the council PM is willing to sanction the revised plan…

Thanks @anon51837532 for your time and expertise. The above is definitely not certain at the moment.

Thanks @anon51837532 & @MajaHilton

I checked just after the workmen finished today around 4pm and it looks like it’s filled now ready to reset with just a few inches below the normal Road surface.

John, massive thanks for your expertise yet again & explaining everything to me in simple details today & Maja thanks for the chat last night.

After speaking to both of you earlier today I spoke with Kevin and he has told me the Road is due to have the Tarmac starting to be laid on Thursday night & is booked in for then, so fingers crossed!

I realise getting the road opened is the immediate albeit ongoing concern but has there been any communication to the contractor of my previous mention of what I see as faulty engineering of the drainage falls which are causing water pooling and build up of deposited dirt due to same.

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The same question to my other query that there is no height differentiation between vehicle parking / loading bays and pedestrian footpath. It was mentioned before in reply to me that Sydenham has the same style bays which seem to have worked out ok but, with the exception of a disabled parking bay which is level with the pavement, Sydenham’s bays do seem to have a definite height demarcation between vehicle and pedestrian areas.

I admit I’m not looking forward to the visually unappealling yellow lines that no doubt are due in Dartmouth Road, but will these indicate that it is not permissible for a vehicle to encroach into the footway when parking in bays?

I’m happy to take my questions to the appropriate place (any tips?) but wondered if these already have been addressed by anyone… Curtis maybe, as I know he has been cited elsewhere as a knowledgeable person relevant to the work that’s being done.

There are possibly three areas where levels will have to be adjusted (including the one you picture) . We observed last week that some re-setting of levels will be necessary and indeed some remedial work was underway… Cannot be sure that Kier’s will have received notification directly - but it should be picked up in snagging.

The road marking diagram is not in circulation so cannot answer your questions on those points.

Les Senior is the council’s PM and possibly it should be to him that your points be directed. Curtis will have limited capability to receive instructions from outside the contracted parties.

PS: we have highlighted that oil, grease and construction marks will have to be cleaned off granite slabs and setts.

As @Pauline has reported yesterday the quick setting concrete was laid on Wednesday afternoon.

And an excellent job too - see the pix -

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This means that the plan to move forward with the burning and removal of the existing tarmac surfaces could have started on Friday or Saturday. The laying of the new tarmac surface could have followed on on Saturday or Sunday with the road opening up to traffic immediately.

However Kier’s sub-contractor for this phase of the work may not be available to start the works until Tuesday 1 May with a prospective finish three days later.

However the council is attempting to appoint another tarmac contractor. There is also a possibility that if another contract is postponed the original contractor could potentially move to complete the works here.

So - what needs to happen ?

Kier’s are being invited to introduce total exclusion for vehicles from the full site from tomorrow.

If that happens and an alternative contractor can move in the surface removal works can start without hindrance and the tarmac relaying can follow on.

So what can you do to help ?

Do not park any vehicles on any part of the works from tomorrow morning and this includes pavement and bay parking. Please share this info with your neighbours.

There can be no guarantees - but if a contractor becomes available the work can start without hindrance.

Please follow any site notices or instructions that Kier publish or post on-site.

This uncertainty is regrettable - but I have observed @MajaHilton make extraordinary efforts to bring this entire matter to a conclusion.

I don’t doubt it!
But it has to be said that she wouldn’t have known what buttons to press without you putting in your time and expert opinion walking around and inspecting the works with her and Pauline.
It’s been a great team effort from the 3 of you and it’s much appreciated.

Hear hear, what’s your day job @anon51837532, if that’s not too nosey?!

Hat tip to @anon51837532 Kudos my friend, great to see members of the community engaging to such a level and offering their knowledge and expertise in order to try and help a bad situation get better.

Heres to the borough learning from this mess. And hopefully someone somewhere being held accountable for it all. The way the local businesses have suffered is shameful at the least.

Forgive me skipping responses to earlier posts. Let me answer those tomorrow.

This issue of the impact on the DR businesses is vitally important

@Anotherjohn states it succinctly- use it or lose it.

They need your footfall now - and it is essential that happens before the road opens.

Shop tomorrow and the day after and the day after that…

I am a Programme and Project Manager with several years experience in local government, post-privatisation railway property and English Heritage.

As well as my work in large scale property and property maintenance I have managed the design and integration of computer based work management systems and have also engaged in change management programmes for mid-size organisations. I can and do contribute time and effort to charities - both local and international.

And it’s not too nosey.

@anon51837532, there is always a place for you on the transport or planning or executive committee of Forest Hill Society
We could do with some help working out how to relocate Forest Hill station and building a new town centre where the existing station is located!
Very impressed with your work to progress the Dartmouth Road scheme.

Hear hear. JDG’s work on this should earn him one of the new SE23.life community spirit awards. Is there a nomination process? @SE23.life?

Thank you - but a step too far @starman - how about if you see me in the bar at AIO - just say hello - it’s always good to put faces to the people you share posts with.

Thanks Mr D - very interesting. And thanks for all your hard work getting some steam back into this project with top team @MajaHilton, @Pauline and anyone else who’s been lending a hand!

It did indeed, when we announced yesterday: 🏆 New Members of the Month and Top Posts - 2018

John, well done helping Maja with the inspection of the project, great community spirit!

Superb. I had only read the version with new members and top posts. Highly deserved!

(splutter) What!? How? Where?

To the site that is currently WHSmith and a post office - where the station used to be located.

Ah yes, I had seen that, but didn’t realise it involved a whole new station! It would make an amazing difference to the area. One can dream…

I thought the old LBSC station was near where the footbridge is and Platform 1 is some remnant?

I guess they weren’t successful , but at least there seems to be a date confirmed now!

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Given that is happening overnight - does that mean that the road will be open during the day for traffic? Seems an unnecessary disturbance for the people living on the street otherwise.

Disappointing outcome.

Given the nature of the road closure the work could be carried out anytime. However - and perhaps - the resurfacing team is on a night-works cycle and cannot work a 24 hour period for obvious reasons.

Kiers and Elm will be responsible for traffic management - it would be difficult to predict if the road will be open daytimes.

The decision removes the regrettable uncertainties I previously referred to.

Yup, we pushed to have it started tomorrow night but at least the end is in sight!

Massive thanks @MajaHilton & @anon51837532 for the work you have done on this & the help you have gave me to try push this forward.

Thanks both
P x

And nor forgetting @Pauline.

An invaluable contributor.

And also to all those who engaged in the consultation and freely gave of their time.

A Lewisham parking attendant is going along the road now ticketing everyone in the new bays who’s been there more than 30 mins. It’s fine to park on the road, though.

This seems like an absolute failure of common sense to me.

(Also, I’m glad we walked today).

Absolute in the extreme.

Any pix of the attendant doing it ? Is it the scooter mounted one ?

As I recall from my last visit there are no road markings and I am pretty certain parking restrictions signage is not in place. Each and all of these factors have to be present to validate such actions. Has any signage been erected since my last visit ?

At best this has to be a mis-understanding with an impact that will need mass annulment of all tickets issued.

I had a chat with him but didn’t think it was fair to take a photo of him. He’s just doing his job.

The signage is in place by the bays, so it’s probably a fair cop (not sure whether the bays need to have paint on them since they’re already demarcated from the footpath and the road by design), but it’s a failure of basic common sense. And I don’t think it helps the businesses along there.

Agreed.

And in circumstances where council led problems (perhaps I should phrase it absence of effective council management) with the execution of the contracted works, has caused measurable financial distress to these businesses - how can Parking Enforcement reconcile their actions with that of the need to support and possibly compensate the affected businesses.

In any event the damage is done - people will vote with their wheels and will not risk getting tickets.

I have rechecked - and the permit to work on the highway has been extended by the council to 5 May 20218. It may the case that this permit means that ALL parking restrictions are suspended during the permits’ duration. Is there anyone out there with a more detailed knowledge of that legal interpretation able to advise further ?

I agree with your comment about not taking photos of the attendant - but for those caught up by the attendant’s actions - take pix of everything the ticket, the timing, the bays where you parked, the signage and ensure you highlight the absence of road markings.

This site can be accessed to make copies of the permit:

http://public.londonworks.gov.uk/roadworks/home;jsessionid=0aeae16430d6a42b6a7b942b43c1b05ba4e6eb9b4435.e34NaxyLchaMci0QaxiQahmRbxr0

Hmm interesting dilemma - the permit is NOT listed on the Roadworks Register - that is a strange omission as council officers had reported that they were planning to extend it.

However here is a screen dump of the TfL Traffic Website that does the report the closure being in place.

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Whilst I sgree that without appropriate signage it will be difficult to enforce the tickets. However, where 30 minute limits are set and exceeded then the penalties are justified. Quick turnover of vehicles/customers will benefit the businesses as this means more possibilities to sell something.

Got to agree with that point in principle and probably in practice.

But specifically for periods of normal operation - and this is an abnormal period.

The immediate - and hopefully very short term effect - is to scare away any customers who drive and who may elect to show their support for the DR businesses over the next few days.

Is it beyond our council’s capabilities to communicate internally and spread a single message - what can we do to support the DR businesses? And Parking Enforcement - lay off for a few days until the scheme is finished.

Visited site and met @Pauline briefly. She says business was a little better today - I do hope this improvement was spread over the others.

Astonishingly and unexpectedly the concreted infill has had a layer of tarmac laid over and done very professionally.

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This means the road had only one very temporary blockage that would taken just s few minutes to move with the fork lift device on site.

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With that done the road could have opened today.

It could have remained open during business hours until 1st May and the closed for the evening works on that day with cycle being repeated for the next day.

So having gone the extra mile to lay the small piece of tarmac - the question is why was the road not opened fully for business.

The sign issue - new signs are not in place and some old signs remain. It can not be considered a complete or competent sign system upon which sound prosecutions could rely.

Yep, trading today was good, hope it continues!

Got 4 15 year olds for a sleepover tonight!

Wish me luck, haha

Pizza & popcorn done the trick

Great to see some equipment on site ready for tonight’s work.

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Tarmac machine - load tarmac in one end and road surface comes out the other.

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Road roller - everyone knows what these do.

Missing on site at 17:30 was the surface planer but confident that will turn up.

Too many cars still on site perhaps.

And oddly Kiers stlll have some material on the road carriageway.

A note for @ThorNogson - there probably won’t be a call for volunteers to drive the equipment.

They’re on site now and preparing to start!

Cars left on the Road will be getting towed away very soon!

So defo on schedule for D Rd reopening this Friday WOOHOO

- was so pleased to see the tarmacing trucks pulling up as I got home tonight!

Bring it on!

Curtis also spraypainted the Road today to remind all there is NO PARKING from this evening!

Will do an update in about an hour

Interesting - were the trucks full ?

They generally need them to arrive empty first and then take the dug up road surface away.

At the road surface relaying stage all the trucks turn up, reverse into and hook up to the surface machine and unload into the hopper.

You can tell - if they have hot tarmac onboard the steam rises from the back of the truck.

Adds to all the excitement.

All empty, about 4 or 5 of them lining up by Thorpeward ready to be filled.

One of these big boys from Tesco’s came into the Road this morning regardless of the ROAD CLOSED signs!

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Done quite a bit of damage reversing into @BirdinHand frontage trying to turn around to exit.

Monica from Bird in Hand, Curtis from Keir, Police, and lots of locals including myself couldn’t believe it - took the driver almost an hour to turn his truck around, no major damage was done to the D Rd works after checking with Curtis though quite a bit of cosmetic work was damaged at Bird in Hand.

This happens around 9-10am this morning!

Oh that smell! I’m like one of the Bisto kids when I smell tarmac lol

Might have to have a look later, do love a big machine.

How strange - the smell is very evocative.

When we were kids and tarmac was laid by hand - we would try to walk on the sticky tarmac - and in a very Scottish sense you could get a good few extra miles on the soles of your shoes from the tarmac that stuck to them.

You had to be there !

IT’S ALL GO HERE!

Les from LC & Curtis from Keir are definitely on the case & both are on site right now around 8pm for the first section being done coming down D Rd from the Library to Hair Lounge

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Great pix @pauline.

The second pic is of the surface planer which is milling up the road surface and and passing that material up the conveyor belt to be dumped into a lorry for removal.

The material can be recycled after processing as aggregate into the next hot tarmac mix.

Won’t be able to give another update until tomorrow sometime

Crazy memories for me too. Remember the road at the end of my old road in Sydenham being resurfaced when I was about 7.
It’s stuck with me.

Will be interesting to see the finished article. To the untrained eye everything looked a bit wonky as I passed along the road today. The tarmac will tie it all together nicely for my little brain to understand.

I know I have said this in earlier posts.

Having looked closely at it over the last few days - I think the design is high quality - and the delivered job will match the design.

There will always be snagging - and that is intended to eliminate those small defects.

Will be surprised if tarmac laying is actually started tonight - but good progress appears to be being made.

Good luck to the businesses! Anything is better than before. I think it will be worth the wait. And right in time for the better weather too which makes me venture out of my cave more!

I can’t get an Ice Cream delivery until Friday due to this.

Hopefully I get it on Friday for the Bank Holiday Weekend.

Fingers crossed

Just checked again, they are working through the night!

Happy about that, will check tomorrow

This looks like the real deal this time. Will be so glad when the 185 is no longer packed all day.

Nice little timelapse:

The rest of the Road will be done tonight, they are preparing to start work NOW

Tomorrow night the final coat will go on the whole Rd & the double yellow lines will be painted on ready for reopening on Friday YAY

Is there going to be a grand opening of some sort? A ribon cutting and a voucher for the first double parker?

Should be a round of applause for the first bus to go down Dartmouth Road since the 29th Jan!

Bloody noisy out there, but I don’t mind having no sleep tonight

All is done just past Derby Hill on D Rd Now, ALMOST THERE

Gonna try catch some Zzzz’s now as my alarm is set for 6.30am

Still needs another layer and some lines:

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I saw quite a few parked cars yesterday evening.
Please don’t park on the new surface. It needs another coat, and if your car is left by the do not park signs this evening, it will be towed away.

There is something beautiful about newly laid road.

But will it?

Anyone want to test this?

They are - but only as far is the surrounding roads. Had a couple dropped on our street yesterday - followed by some confused looking drivers hunting down their rides

Shhhh @armadillo

I am looking forward to rolling down that on my road bike - nothing like fresh laid tarmac and that road was terrible for lumps and bumps prior to this…

Just hope the finished product is better than Brockley Rise lol.
That said, it was hideous before, so I too look forward to it.

Anyone want to run a book on when the first utility hole will be dug, and by who?

Thames Water. Surely odds on favourites.

Maybe there should be a separate thread, winner gets a coffee and cake at Costa on me.

But I make you right. Repeat offending is their speciality.

The Road is looking black and slick, didn’t get a pic but it looks sick as the kids would say.

I’ll post a pic tomorrow when I’m not in my Jammies

It’s looking good though!

I think more might be hunting their rides tomorrow

Selfie in PJS. Go on go on now.

Haha, you always make me smile but no can do, I’m snuggled up in my fluffy socks & in bed x

…and, it’s done!

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Now the road is finally open, I’ve closed this topic in favour of pushing this one to promote the point…