Local Primary Schools Phased Return (June 2020)

I am aware this may not be a popular opinion but Kilmore school (and the teaching unions) not taking the children back is an utter disgrace. This is going to hit children very hard, so hard that many will never recover, particularly those reliant on the education s system for books, stimulation and structure. There are children of working single mothers who have been unable to do anything but play computer games for 8 weeks. Children have distinct developmental windows, and once they are missed you do not get them back. This will hit those in lower socio-economic brackets brutally hard.

With all due respect to those who have had loved ones impacted by the coronavirus, its is actually rapidly exposing itself to be a far less risk than advertised, particulrly for children. It’s understandable that teachers who have pre-exisiting health conditions to absentee themselves – as per government guidance – as it is these whom overwhelmingly succumb to the virus . However, we are no longer at epidemic levels of covid-19 prevalence in the UK (0.27% of the population infected, where 0.4% is the low end required to be “epidemic”), and all-cause deaths have slipped back below average.

With no serious pre-existing conditions, the young-ish and healthy are far more likely to be hit by lightning (49 occurrences per annum in UK) than to die of covid-19 (33 in England under age 40, of which only 3 under the age of 19).

The bottom line is that the vast majority of people recover. And there is very low risk:

Stanford’s Nobel laureate Michael Levitt (biophysicist and professor of structural biology) found on the Diamond Princess cruise ship, a virtually perfect sealed petri-dish disproportionately filled with the most susceptible age and health groups that despite the virus spreading uncontrolled onboard for at least two weeks, infection only reached 20% of passengers and crew.

For anyone asking if I would teach in a classroom the answer is an empathic yes. And I am sure there are insightful and committed teachers who would also like to step to the crease at this time. The education and socialising of these children is essential, not to mention the need for the utterly nuked economy to get back on track – the deaths from which will far outnumber those of corona. This is not economy versus people – as some appear to think – the economy IS people. The lockdown will mean higher taxes, higher borrowing and therefore less investment

The reopening of schools in 22 European countries has not led to any significant increase in coronavirus infections among children, parents or staff, this is even reported by the Guardian.

Kilmorie and other schools should hang their heads in shame. It either believes in education or not. It was a chance to be a hero and you fluffed it. All you have shown is where your true priorities lie.

Argue all you like about schools going back, but please don’t use that hurtful sort of argument. More people have died in the UK in a just a few months as a result of being infected with this truly awful virus than civilians killed by enemy action in the UK in half of WW2.

I am also very disappointed with this decision which is at odds with current Government guidance, though note that guidance will be reviewed and finalised on May 28th, and Lewisham’s own message is cautious: https://lewisham.gov.uk/myservices/education/schools/school-closures

It is however unclear where the decision came from, was it the local school or school Governors that took the decision? Or was it wider factors?

Kilmorie had also previously sent a survey to parents asking their opinion on return to school - it would be very interesting to see those results, but I guess we probably won’t.

So how about a quick light-hearted straw poll here? What do parents feel about local schools re-opening:

My view is that parents should have the choice, but that schools should open regardless (and with only a selection of all of the social distancing policies they’re putting in place). Children and adults under 45 are at far lower risk of dying than those over 65 by a massive order of magnitude and the virus is self-evidently petering out anyway, so the risk of infection is now significantly lower. Why are children and their parents under house arrest? If the objective is to stop it spreading amongst those of pensionable age, do that instead.

This is always going to be the challenge of moving from lockdown. Go too early and there’s the risk of other phases (listen to the excellent Radio 4 programme on the 1918/19 pandemic where there were 3 distinct pulses between period of quiet (there were differences - the pandemic hit the younger generation probably because of returning troops, no antibiotics). So I do agree that a quiet period now does not mean it won’t flare again.

But it also is true that if you keep a hard lockdown for too long then the economic impact will be severe (possibly on the lines of 1929) and that will have severe impacts, including fatalities as well.

The problem is that it is likely to take a considerable time before a vaccine - so we will have to live with this for some time to come - but there will be a need to get things going. And large parts of the economy do not really work with 2 mtr social distancing (leisure, hospitiality, but also office areas like Canary Wharf).

A gordions knot. I think regular checking and tracking of local hot spots is perhaps the way.

Also people will have different attitudes to risk. Would I want to fly at the moment - frankly no (even if a plane is half load its recirculated air); do I feel able to go for a long walk - yes, no problems. A restaurant, sit-down, inside? Hmm, a bit undecided…but…if its got a good hygene rating and there a re no local hotspots (that tracing again), in a couple of months…yes.

This from a couple of days ago is interesting: https://unherd.com/2020/05/is-it-safe-to-reopen-schools/

I wonder if there is anything coming in the near future which might change this…

Maybe, but couldn’t we try to make hay while things are on the up (or, err, R is down), while learning from before and lockdown properly - hard and fast - if things change towards the worse?

The government advice, while suggesting reopening on the 1st, already states the following: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/closure-of-educational-settings-information-for-parents-and-carers/reopening-schools-and-other-educational-settings-from-1-june

There is also cost to lockdown, which will be seen in the near future too…

Hi Thomas, whilst it’s clear to see that you are disappointed with the school’s decision I think you are wrong to call it a disgrace. There are many reasons why the school may have come to this decision, based on feedback gained from parents this week. As the school has stated when informing parents they do not feel they have been given enough time to address all the issues raised and and say they “look forward to welcoming the children back when they can be confident of meeting all the safety measures of the Government guidance”.
Now, if only we had a Government that could provide us all with some transparent and clear advice and guidance. (Leadership even?). Let’s see if they manage to get the Track and Trace system up and running as promised. Could provide some much needed confidence within the community.

I agree with all this. Less so with the failure to acknowledge the massive effect of lockdown.

Line chart of reproductive rate of the virus in the UK showing the lockdown was decisive in limiting the spread of coronavirus700×500

If some parents don’t want to send their kids to school, I doubt they’d be forced to.

It seems wrong for a group of concerned parents (and union-organised teachers) to prevent any children returning to school.

School is vital, not just for the children’s futures, but also for the economy.

The schools should re-open.

All schools have received the same guidance at the same time. Most are making preparations to return.

Yes Chris, schools should reopen… and they will, when the Government has assured parents, teachers (and the Unions as you say) that the time is right. So far we have bungled announcements, U-turns and backtracking (maybe the tracing App isn’t important - Matt Hancock). All everyone wants is to know that it is safe for all children, relatives and staff… surely not too much to ask?
When our PM decides to pop-up again soon hopefully he will have some more reliable and consistent guidance for us all.

Yet it is ok for the posh private schools to go back when it’s safe to do so? How shocking that some people feel it’s boring well sorry it’s not meant to be fun it is worrying times and so wrong to think that we’re all in this together.
I find it disgraceful how the government have handled this. Not being able to be by a loved ones side at such a crucial time when they are scared is horrible.
Again it seems for some a major concern to there plans. We all had plans missed birthdays etc so why do some people feel there situation is superior to others??

It’s not safe for all children, relatives and staff. Nor will it ever be!

The question is - what’s a sensible level of risk to take, given a) a significant number of people now have anti-bodies, b) children can be mostly separated from elderly / vulnerable people and c) there’s a huge societal cost in keeping schools closed.

Correct. Again, from the current government guidance:

The school has ample space to accommodate one year group (year 6) even in the unlikely event all parents of students in that year group sent their children in. I could understand there being some logistical difficulties in accommodating the return of three separate year groups (reception, year 1 and year 6) simultaneously. But to not begin teaching any pupils at all on June 1st is a joke. The remote learning materials provided by Kilmorie have been excellent but their teachers have not been delivering online lessons for example. They are not exactly overworked at present. The threat to them from teaching in person is minimal - they are more likely to contract Covid-19 from their weekly shopping forays or from sunbathing in the park with friends.

Other schools are preparing to welcome those three year groups back on June 1st. They are employing simple measures - drop off times staggered by 15 minute intervals, children asked to wear PE kit to school so they don’t need to change during the day, bringing their own pencil case and bottle of water to prevent using water fountains etc.

Kilmorie is a fantastic school with phenomenal leadership. But they have really let themselves down here. One can only guess at the factors at play but I dare say the teaching unions have played a significant part, compounded by Lewisham council essentially absolving itself of responsibility by leaving the decision to individual schools, which is cowardice of the highest order. As the OP states, delaying the return of pupils for much longer will have very serious consequences for many pupils.

It’s a very odd decision and needs justifying.

If there’s one thing the science does agree on it’s that the risk to children from Covid is tiny. Anyone who talks about the safety of children either doesn’t understand the data or is trying to sell you something.

Children are being kept out of education to protect adults. I think we need to start being honest about this, and think about whether the costs outweigh the benefits.

A couple of points:

• the approach taken by the school’s management team is in line with what is happening in some other local schools and is within government recommendations (to assess the risk for each school) - I am not sure why one school has been singled out

• the school is not closed at the moment and has been open throughout the current crisis, providing care for the kids who have needed it most over the last few months

• the detailed letter sent to parents signed by the headteacher today sets out what they’re going to try to do - a phased approach beginning with Y6 returning and seeing how that goes before more year groups are introduced

I think it’s much easier to make a risk call for yourself and / or your own kids than it is to do it for a staff of dozens and a cohort of kids running to nearly 700 and a group of parents / carers numbering over a thousand in total with a lot of different individual circumstances. People obviously have extreme views on this - I trust the school’s leadership team to know the details of the school’s own circumstances best and to manage the risk accordingly - a couple of weeks of caution seems prudent.

A challenge is that by necessity, the message in lockdown was very clear - 2 meters social distancing is vital. And that paid a huge part in reducing the spread.

However, the message is so strong that there is a genuine fear / expectation for many people that if you get within, say 1 meter of another person you run very severe risks of a fatality. You run an increased risk - yes. But if we do persist with 2 meters social distancing for a long period of time that has very significant impacts. Running schools, museums, churches, charities, fianance districts, public transport, pubs, restaurants, airports, theatres etc doesn’t work beyond a few months with 2 meters SD.

So somehow a way has to be found to reduce the 2 meters social distancing well before a vaccine is available. Or suffer the consequences which may be very severe. That is not easy but it has to be done. Testing and tracking I suspect is the least worst.

I would agree that the government needs to lift lockdown for a Now non existent threat. But teachers need to find their sense of focus and purpose. I’d be back in the classroom like a flash if I was a teacher. What an opportunity to prevail in your profession, yet instead there’s a cowering where there should be a lead by example. Lead from the front. Don’t believe the MSM. There’s no threat if you’re young and healthy.

Would you take a vaccine for an illness that you’re Highly likely to to recover from?

Since when were ‘facts’ hurtful arguments? Wow. This is the brave new world.

Yes, every time. While I might be highly likely to survive some illness - those with weakened immune systems, or those that are just plain unlucky might not.

My boss is a fit youngish yoga teacher and cyclist with no underlying conditions and has been very sick with the virus since before lockdown. A friend’s child has been in hospital with the severe Kawasaki immune reaction to the virus. And the R rating has decreased only because of weeks of lockdown. As a non scientist, your estimation that this lurgy is mild and fizzling out is very bold. I expect that my kids, who are both at Kilmorie, probably had it pre-lockdown but I still object to you belittling teachers, who have been teaching throughout, under a pseudonym on your initial post above. You also misrepresent the school’s position, which is in fact as Dave sets out above. I’ve also seen at least two single mums on other threads object to your slur on them. Perhaps it is you who should ‘hang your head in shame’.

This had been been noted thorough flags and is being looked into.

Good. There is an identical original post made by Tom Hocknell on his own FB page. Opinions are welcome. Slagging off frontline workers under a pseudonym, not so cool.

I think Tom’s criticism was directed at those teachers who are choosing not to work on the frontline.

Imagine if doctors and nurses also chose not to work on the frontline…

Having recently heard of the loss of a former colleague who was widely described as young and healthy, I would respectfully disagree that this is a non-existent threat.

All the teachers I know at both primary and secondary level have been busting a gut to ensure that the children usually in their care have the materials they need to continue their education at home. Those who have been returning to school to care for the children of key workers have reported how nigh on impossible it is to implement and police social distancing between children, and that’s with only a handful of kids. Some kids are anxious and wary. Others have been told at home that the whole thing’s a fuss about nothing and act cavalier accordingly.

Every school will have a different capacity to adapt, different challenges unique to their space, and different timescales in which they’ll be able to safely make necessary changes. The schools are getting nowhere near the guidance they have the right to expect from the government. I can’t quite understand how one school is being accused here of being anything other than cautious and sensible, protecting the health of the children, their families, and the staff.

And while children may be bouncy and bulletproof, the teachers aren’t. Particularly not the older teachers and teaching assistants. Not all staff are young and healthy. Are we going to insist that only the young and healthy teachers return to teach the young and healthy children, because they’re no longer at risk? Do children with underlying medical conditions have to stay at home? And are we going to accuse older, more vulnerable members of staff of ‘cowering’ rather than seizing the opportunity to be Superteacher, because they’re uncomfortable collecting books and worksheets from those young and healthy children, some of whom have been taught to believe COVID-19 is a non-existent threat?

As Dave and Fran have explained in their informed posts, this isn’t about teachers not working. The school has a sensible plan in place which prioritises vulnerable children and the children of key workers and gets the rest back in asap yet safely. It’s great big non-story.

The current allowances are (rightfully) for the children of key workers. That is not the same as vulnerable children, who may not even be identified during this situation.

It’s the parents choice whether to send their children back to school… unless the school is shut, in which case there is no choice.

So the teachers are willing to work?

And many parents are willing (but not forced) to send their children back.

So why would we tolerate unions trying to override a government decision (made with the guidance of the UK’s top scientific advisors) that children should be allowed back on June 1st?

Yes, people on this topic have all sorts of opinions. However, many of these are moot, given the statistics laid out by @TomAngel.

I think if we started censoring opinions for being “moot” because they are opinions rather than theses, you wouldn’t have much of a forum.

Who’s suggesting censoring any opinions?

Aside from @Nick_Wilson_Young, stating which comments are “welcome” and which are “not so cool”

This to me read as a belittling, and as a dismissal of others’ opinions, should they suggest a different viewpoint, or present one not fortified by statistics.

If I misread you, my apologies.

Sorry that I came across as belittling - that was not my intention.

Are you sure it’s isn’t for vulnerable kids too? That has always been govt policy, typically identified by the allocation of a social worker to the child. Aside from this, it seems that so long as school attendance is optional the majority of these vulnerable children will not be attending.

Yes, you are of course right.

Yes, this was more what I was thinking, and also that without regular contact with schools and teachers, some safe guarding issues may not be noticed, particularly at reception age.

Are you a parent who has received a letter from the school? This is covered in it.

Are any of you teachers? It is very easy to judge when not directly involved in the job.

Please don’t misquote me to suggest that you are being censored. This is your site, I’m sure you know how to scroll up and check what I actually said. What is becoming clear is that you and Tom are determined to grind an axe about teachers supposedly refusing to work, when the actual facts re Kilmorie and all schools are as set out by Dave and Fran in their posts above. Like so much on se23.life this is just click-bait. The Daily Mail at least has cartoons.

I didn’t suggest that I am being censored.

If they’re not refusing to work (and the comms from the school were thus inaccurate), then there’s no problem. What a relief.

… although it looks to me that they’re not going to re-admit any year groups until they have arbitrarily decided it’s “safe”:

Bringing nursery & reception children when they can not social distance, or learn through their normal play stations & activities at school because of risk if contamination.
Seems a bit pointless, apart from the fact they can check certain children’s welfare. Many reception children would of taken a long time to settle in to the routine they would of been accustomed to before lockdown.
It could be very distressing for some children to go back as it will be far from the normal environment they remember & if they are meant to social distance from everyone that won’t happen unless teachers/TA’s scare the life out of them to keep away of from others. Which would not be most teachers/TA’s nature & be a horrible experience for all.
Teachers and TA’s also wouldn’t want to wear protective face covering as suggested in enclosed spaces because they’d feel sorry for the children they want to return. Many reception/ yr1 need a physical or close contact and it would be heartbreaking not to do this, unless you break the rules and put others at risk.

Yr 1 do more academic learning but again a lot is learned through play too. So same reason as above.

Perhaps they should of thought of bringing Yr6, Yr5 & Yr4, these year groups would have more knowledge of the situation and a better understanding of social distancing, and reasons for doing it. (Although would still find it hard) unless constantly told to keep away. Being able to get back to the academic routine they would be used to, would seem more normal for them and teachers/TA’s.
Although still not normal to have to be distanced, & the fear of what has hit the world will be playing hugely on childrens minds, like it was before the lockdown.

How anyone can read the above and take issue with their clear attempts to be cautious and pragmatic is beyond me.

Because they are arbitrarily reneging on the government’s schedule (which takes into account the top scientific advice, and factors in the vital, lifesaving outcome of having an economy)

And also because this is evidently influenced by unions (they’re mentioned in the letter) - and the unions rarely act in the national interest.

I work at a school but not as a teacher and this is a point that many people seem to have missed. Schools do not operate with just teachers and pupils but with IT, cleaning, maintenance, technicians, catering, councilors and all sorts of peripatetic staff. My school, which is fee paying and therefore a bit of an exception has over a hundred support staff - many of which will also have to return - myself included. Even with all of our resources opening up in June is a logistical nightmare. Essentially we are asking pupils to go back to school and they will end up doing what they were doing from home anyway because having to teach both in person one minute and online the next is ridiculous. So we are going to teach them online at school.
As an IT guy I am expected to go back and fix machines, mice, keyboards, laptops, touch screens and may other devices that everyone else has been handling and I can’t say I am pleased about that.

All this war talk of returning to the front line leaves me baffled and a little uneasy… Teachers are not soldiers wading into battle and nor am I - we are all just people with jobs who want to do them and want to do them safely and without endangering our families at home and our colleagues at work. I also deplore the politicisation surrounding this…

I’d also like to know where OP get the fact that “all-cause deaths have slipped back below average” - the latest All Cause Mortality Report does not say that.

I wish everyone was so keen to get back to work themselves as they are for me to go back.

I haven’t seen anything from Kilmorie saying that teachers are refusing to work. Quite the opposite. If you aren’t a parent there perhaps ask Tom to share what he has received from the school. Again, this is a non story.

And re censorship, here’s the bit above where you deliberately misquoted me to suggest that I was trying to censor Tom:
’ "Who’s suggesting censoring any opinions? Aside from @Nick_Wilson_Young, stating which comments are “welcome” and which are “not so cool”.’
What I actually said was:
“Opinions are welcome. Slagging off frontline workers under a pseudonym, not so cool.”

Surely I don’t need to help you to navigate your own site?

This is a ludicrous piece of click-bait in which your comments reveal a determination to believe that the unions are stopping schools opening to all years on 1 June. They aren’t.

Does the government’s advice - which according to all teachers I have spoken to is utterly sub-standard - take into account the huge variation of premises size, capacity, layout, etc that ignores the fact that one size rarely fits all?

Frankly I trust a headteacher and school management team (who intimately know the challenges faced by their particular school) to better understand the risks posed to their children than the flailing government, whose reactions have been slow and fail to inspire any confidence.

I also I have to say, I find this total contempt for unions quite upsetting.

Let’s see if they open to any year groups on June 1st… and then we’ll decide if this discussion is “click bait”

Fran, you don’t like the government. I get it. And obviously the unions don’t like the government.

But we need to get beyond that and see the bigger picture - the very real problems for real people in the real economy if state-funded schools can arbitrarily decide to close when they please.

For me, that’s the exact problem. Until schools and nurseries open, I don’t have a choice whether I can go back to work - I simply cannot. And unfortunately also working in technology, my employer thinks I should be perfectly capable of working just at effectively at home - while the school thinks we should be able to home school too.

I think it maybe through this reliance upon schools and their staff that the comparison with other front-line services is made. You’re vital!

Take thought that while schools are not operating normally, they are still operating and multitasking. Which throws up lots of issues around child protection, staff, learning, planning etc etc. Which is all going on behind the scenes. So while the Heads, management and staff are juggling to do their best currently for all their pupils.
Heads and management are also having to speak with their staff, parents, boroughs and try to put together a safe logistical nightmare for children to return.
Which everyone has their own opinions about and not as many the answers.
Which could change at a minutes notice.

I think this is the nub of the problem as lot of people in education see it. There is a feeling that we are all being forced to return to work because of the fact that it needs to happen before everyone else can go back to work. There is a feeling that this is political\economic in nature. I don’t say I agree with that but we all know it is a fact that we have to work or most people cant so it colours the debate…
I must say though that all the teachers I know have worked harder than ever over this period and have had to adapt and rewrite entire teaching plans. Personally I haven’t worked as hard as this in years!

The thing is - there is no safe way for school, or society to reopen. This is a pandemic and the effect on the country will continue to be extraordinary. We must adapt to the unsafe new normal.

It will take extraordinary courage and resolve for our country to emerge from this crisis. And sadly, in order to ultimately save the lives of the many, there will be a cost to the lives of the few. It’s not fair. It’s not safe. But if we don’t think and act holistically, and in the long-term national interest, the outcome will be worse overall.

The unions, given their nature, are the least likely to act in the long term national interest. They’re the worst people to listen to at a time of national crisis. If it were up to them, hundreds of thousands of Brits would still be working in coal mines, digging up stuff that no one wants to buy, and which harms the planet and everyone’s health.

I don’t hate them, Chris. Some things they have done well. Some things they have done badly. I just refuse to slavishly accept everything they’re doing, because I don’t believe they’re getting everything right, and it’s dangerous to listen to them and only to them.

But now, sufficiently patronised, I’ll step out.

The only thing I take issue with is that they’ve had insufficient time. They knew they’d reopen one day and commonsense should have told Heads and Governors they’d need to make plans.

From the start the govt itself has said that the 1 June is the earliest possible date and that on 28th it may decide that the situation doesn’t mean 1 June is a good idea. And even if they say go ahead, Fran and ForestHillNick have set out the practical challenges which are myriad. I’d rather have my kids’ physical and mental health in the hands of sensible teachers than you and Tom.
And where’s your apology for misquoting me to suggest I was censoring Tom? It’s a strange sort of site where you post nonfactual politicised clickbait written under a pseudonym, let the poster comment using a different identity, misquote those you disagree with and don’t apologise, and determinedly grind your own union-hating axe in the face of actual facts about Kilmorie.

I agree with you - it is political and economic in nature.

The sacrifices made to win WW2 were also politically and economically motivated. Not necessarily a bad thing.

I think we are all working really hard, but thank you for your efforts! Perhaps we need a ‘toot for teachers’ on Tuesday 8pm or something? I really do appreciate the efforts of the school staff.

That’s an inhumane attitude. Yes some ethic minorities, older people and those with existing health conditions such as asthma, diabetes and heart and circulation problems might be more likely to die or have a life limiting outcome than the majority. But that doesn’t make them worthy of any less consideration than fit and healthy children. And the jury is still out on the original poster’s “statistics”. You state them as established facts but your link takes us back to the OP and his assertions, not to a source for any established proven statistics.

Or is the Guardian engaging in “ludicrous click bait” too?

Again the military comparisons - I’m sorry but they make no sense to me.
We are not soldiers, there is no war, we are not here to lay down our life’s so the many can live.

Ahem, let’s keep the discussion on topic and local please!

Mary, I’m not arguing that some people, by their nature, deserve less consideration. This would indeed be inhumane, if that was my argument.

The ethical question here is more complicated than that. It’s about whether or not we risk the lives and livelihoods of the many by taking decisions that protect the few.

Chris, the unions don’t run the show.

63 replies to this topic, 14 of which are Chris Beach’s. As someone who is not a parent at the school, you seem to be taking a particularly strong interest in this?

I am a parent at this school and have been for nearly 10 years. I trust the school’s judgement to make the best decision on this given the information they have at the current time and using their experience and knowledge of how best to run a school.

This is not all about the Unions, much as certain posters want to make out. The schools have not been closed. They have been open throughout this crisis to children of key workers and vulnerable children.

Yes. We should protect the “few”. And they’re not so few you know. I would hope we bring up our children to think like that.

I tend to engage when people reply to me, and particularly when they ask questions. If you don’t want me to respond, simply don’t mention me in your comments.

And I’m a parent. Maybe not a Kilmorie parent, but I doubt everyone involved in this conversation is a Kilmorie parent. That doesn’t mean they cannot express an opinion about schools choosing not to open.

This is, to a large extent, about unions. It’s there in black and white in the letter sent by Kilmorie, and there in black and white in The Guardian.

Indeed the school is already open and catering to the children of key workers. QED it should not be impossible to spool up one additional year group, particularly as it’s highly unlikely you’d get more than two thirds of pupils attending given some parents wouldn’t feel comfortable sending their children in.

I’ve read the letter and the point is they’re not starting from 1 June, they’re waiting until almost the end of June. That’s another three weeks of children at a critical juncture in their education missing out on school. My children don’t fall into that bracket (they’re younger) but I really feel for those with children who do.

As a head teacher it is clearly an impossible task to conduct risk assessments for 700 pupils, their families and your staff. But that’s unnecessary. The risk of a child contracting Covid-19 at school is the same as the risk of them being involved in a road traffic accident. So it’s not non-existent but is negligible. The risk to staff is also very low, but that’s clearly what’s irking the unions etc. At some point we as a society are going to have to get comfortable with a certain level of risk.

Also worth pointing out that some local primaries are going back as planned on June 1st. And as Nick mentions, some fee paying schools are also reopening.

My school is not reopening as like most schools we never shut - in fact I was there with the key workers children a few weeks ago.
Also it is not a done deal if we open or not - we are just preparing to do so and preparing to do it as safely as we can - we have way more resources than most schools to do so. We will wait and see what our parental and staff surveys show.
It is a logistical nightmare - it would be easier to send the whole primary school back in one go which I figure may be the rational behind some schools decisions. Also even if we open then it is going to be effectively babysitting for year 1. There will be basic lessons only - no specialist teaching and no PE. They will be taught as if they were still at home which makes it seem a bit of a charade… A bit of an experiment if you like!

I don’t think it’s a charade Nick. Even adjusting for the lack of PE etc., the structure of a school day, the ability to interact with teachers and fellow pupils is absolutely critical to a child’s development.

And even if it is “just babysitting” (an assertion which, with respect, I think some of the teaching staff in your junior school might take issue with), that is still priceless for working parents and for society as a whole (in terms of freeing parents to be able to work more productively and contribute to rebuilding the economy).

How many children of key workers have been receiving tuition (in person) at your school out of interest? Anecdotally, the numbers seem very low. I imagine take-up from parents will also be significantly lower than 100% once schools reopen given some families’ circumstances (with vulnerable family members etc.).

Very few children - as in less than 10 of a JS of 250. I am not sure about the senior school or if there are any at all and I am not party to the results of the parental survey. One parent was anecdotally heard to say that he would pay double the fees to get his kids out of the house!!
I refer to it as babysitting because there really wont be much teaching - as I say it will just be what they are doing online anyway, it will be nothing like a normal school day - but I do take your points about interaction and routine. However even our JS teachers laugh about the babysitting jokes at the best of times and I say it with love and respect (honest!)
It would in many ways be better to do the whole JS - many parents have children across year groups so they will be stuck at home anyway. It would also nix the need for mixed mode teaching and allow for a full curriculum to be taught but would open up a bigger can of worms I fear.
Personally I am fairly sanguine about my limited role and a return to work but we have the luxury of lots of space and lots of resources which others may not have.

I don’t think schools should open until there is a clear strategy in place that is safe for everyone. The overall experience that has been described will not harness our children’s educational or social needs, for many it will shock them and potential trigger other issues. My daughter is very tactile and hates the thought of not being close with her friends. She’s also very nervous around the rules and how no one is really abiding by them. We as a family have been extremely respectful of what has been asked of us and not seen anyone as instructed but I know a lot of people were socially mixing before lockdown was lifted and I’m not prepared to put my youngest troop out as a social experiment.

Denying children their education and denying our country its economy is a bigger (and more dangerous) social experiment, in my opinion.

Do note that no-one is being forced back to school - sending children is still optional so parents can still decide without fear of fines.

However, with the schools not yet opening to all pupils, those that either want or need to send their children have no choice, unless they are key-workers or have vulnerable children. At the same time, the government message is being heard by at least my employer as ‘schools will open’ and so are talking about returning staff to the office already. The message from government, due today, will likely double down on the intent for schools to open on June 1st, given Track & Trace has started - though we don’t yet know if it is working well or people will adhere to the rules.

As Kilmorie is ‘not ready’ to return classes on the 1st, and is looking to only start with year 6 on June 8th, I think it’s doubtful it will be generally open until after the summer holidays.

Kilmorie’s recent FAQ is well reasoned, though does start with the trope that the school never shut. That’s like saying the High Street stayed open because some shops were able to provide take-away service - it’s not the same or what is generally understood as ‘open’. I however do take note that there is undoubtedly lots of work going on at the school to support all this, though many businesses and individuals have been stressed in different ways due to Covid-19.

FAQs.pdf (520.0 KB)

My daughter cannot wait to get back to school.

My kids are the same. Bar going to the allotment (which they like as people respect social distancing there), we’ve only been out once to Blythe Hill and the roads around, and they decided after that they didn’t want to go out again as we had to cross the road so many times and many others were not for us.

We have a Y1 and Y4, and we won’t be sending either back before the summer break. Our school is not reopening more widely for these year groups next week (no ETA yet) but either way I don’t see much benefit for us. I don’t believe they will lose out academically, socially possibly thought it will be strange for them - neither want to go back at present either. We are fortunate that I am not working and can homeschool and we have a garden.

My personal view is that for families that can keep children at home until the summer break they should do so. This will allow schools more time to adapt to new processes before a fuller reintroduction in September (hopefully) and learn some lessons before then. Less people will also minimise risk to teachers and other parents. Whilst the risk to children appears small and is not something I am particularly concerned about now, waiting a little longer for more studies won’t hurt.

The return in September is what Heads and Teachers should be focusing on I think. A new way of teaching perhaps, and more importantly how to teach where you have classes where some children like mine will have done schoolwork 5 days a week, and others where it will be none or somewhere in between.

For me, by September our track and trace will be much more advanced, we will have more information generally from school reopening in this country and others, we may be be further down a treatment phase and numbers of infections could potentially be significantly down.

At my nephews school they are going to open next week, but have split the class into 2, basically half will go in the morning, and the other half in the afternoon.

It’s a tough call for schools no doubt.

The problem for me is that your personal view, while well reasoned, is shaped by your own circumstances and how you are coping with lock down, and that your view point to focus on only a general re-opening in September removes choices from other parents.

The government advice is also pretty clear on what’s expected of schools:

One of mine has been saying he doesn’t want to go back to nursery. No way, never, won’t go back.

Then after a zoom call with the nursery (they set it up, and are not part of Kilmorie in case there is any confusion!) where the familiar staff said hi and showed him a view of the room and some of the measures (as much for us as him I think) he absolutely wants to go back now now now (they are opening on the 1st)!. You never know, your’s may be more keen with some ground work, though I suppose by the same token my other child who is currently wanting desperately to go back may also change her mind for the worst

Absolutely, but I don’t think I’ve made my point well (and possibly won’t again). For me, circumstances mean we can cope with the current status quo which in in the short-term will be best for us and I believe for society in general, and as the return to school is optional (the school has indicated this and the government as well) then that is what we will do.

For people who feel it’s best to send their children back based on their circumstances and children then that option should be open, where the school can accommodate it.

What I am trying to say is less people, less risk I guess, better for schools (in my personal opinion again! )

I think what’s expected of schools and what schools will deliver will diverge. It will also be interesting to see is this is more about a creche type opening with little learning, vs the more traditional learning (that’s not a criticism of schools or teachers by the way if it occurs.)

To be clear, my children are not making the decision, it was more a point that they themselves are concerned with the risk a little, and are coping fine as it is. Again, down to our own circumstances. I’m sure they’d love to see their school friends and have enjoyed some zoom calls etc.

If the return was mandatory I’d think about it more and possibly send them back.

Should find out tomorrow if and when our Y1 will go back as no date at present as it ism other than it won’t be on the 1st June.

Ha blimey! I didn’t doubt that for a second

More I was thinking that as a parent, I feel a bit more comfortable and willing to send my children back if they themselves are prepared and hopefully happy to go back. Small things - like the nursery setting up a call with a few key staff - seem to have easily changed the mood of at least my youngest and made the decision easier. Well done nursery!

BBC NEWS: “More than 200 schools in South Korea have been forced to close just days after they re-opened, due to a new spike in virus cases”

Food for thought for those pushing to open asap.

It’s interesting too that that spike in infections seems to be linked to the virus on warehouse workers’ shoes and clothing.

There was a case recently in this country where a care worker wore her uniform in a supermarket and was shouted at for doing so by an off duty nursing trainer, who had returned to “front lne” duty as an intensive care nurse. That intensive care nurse has allegedly received threats of violence for remonstrating with the care worker. I’d have thought it bloody obvious you don’t wear your possibly contaminated uniform out of your work environment. Even if it’s clean on and you’re doing your shopping before seeing your patients, you risk it being contaminated if you wear it in a public place.

Agreed. If there is a local hotspot in infection it can quickly escalate, so we should all plan for more lockdowns and school shutdowns in the future, and proceed wisely rather than hell-for-leather - taking proportional incremental risks of widening our social interactions, and learning what works as we go.

There are likely to be two more spikes - possibly one in October and another in March 2021. So rather than rushing to get everyone back, we need to take a longer term view and plan for work, schooling and social to all be affected in cycles for the forseeable future.

What are the “hell for leather” proposals here?

I thought the government was suggesting only pupils in reception, year 1 and year 6 return to school, and only while the five tests pass, and allowing parents to renege without consequence.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/closure-of-educational-settings-information-for-parents-and-carers/reopening-schools-and-other-educational-settings-from-1-june

“hell for leather” means pushing for return by some arbitrary date rather than being led by local needs and arrangements, and by the people than know best - those actually in charge of and running each school.

During a pandemic, it’s epidemiologists that know best - and a government that considers the whole picture (including our economy, and the long-term consequences).

School staff will not have the same incentives to act in the national interest, and their knowledge of the virus is not going to match those of the government’s scientific advisors.

Sorry - and going off topic briefly - is this the government that rejected Public Health England’s 11-point plan to lockdown care homes on the 28th of April? Or the one that, had they accepted the advice of epidemiologists to lockdown on 16th March instead of 23rd, would have potentially avoided 11,000 excess deaths?

I dont know if you’ve noticed, but we have the second highest COVID death rate in the developed world. So excuse me if I dont depend only our government’s advice for deciding what’s best.

And neither the government nor epidemiologists can know the situation on the ground in each school, or the practicalities around implementing the advice - only the schools know this. School staff are incentivised to act in the local interest, which if I had a child at a school, is exactly what I’d want them to do.

There were good reasons that both govt and many care homes rejected those proposals, but yes, that’s off topic to this discussion.

That’s simply not a sound statement. The U.K. reports Covid deaths completely differently to other nations.

In the UK a death can be recorded as “Covid” even if no Covid test was performed to verify this.

And crucially, in the U.K., if a Covid patient has a heart attack, or dies of pneumonia, their cause of death is recorded as “Covid”. In Germany, for example, the cause would be recorded as “heart attack” or “pneumonia”

Yes, I suspect many parents will think in their own “local interest” as opposed to the national interest. But the economy (livelihoods, long term mental health, civil stability) relies on people getting back to work. And that relies on people getting their kids back in school.

Perhaps this is where we fundamentally differ - I don’t see how it is in the national interest to have people die that didn’t need to. And going back to the issue of the school opening - it’s about taking wise incremental risks in re-opening rather than being ideologically driven to re-open.

It’s a more complex ethical question than that.

We could save the lives of our vital doctors and nurses by keeping them at home. But obviously that would cost more lives in the bigger picture.

A total economic collapse will cost many many lives. Observe 20th century history (in particular the 1929 depression) to see the consequences.

I think an incremental risk is the approach being taken. Schools are only opening in limited capacity (Reception, Y1 and Y6 recommended first), taking precautionary measures, splitting class sizes and aiming for social distancing. On top of that, if infection is found, there is already a published plan to deal with it. Details are here https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/closure-of-educational-settings-information-for-parents-and-carers/reopening-schools-and-other-educational-settings-from-1-june but more specifically (and incase the advice changes, as is due soon):

I think this is a cautious approach, slow enough that if something goes wrong, things can be changed to take action before anything gets out of hand.

Clearly it’s going to take a while to ramp up to full re-opening, but we have to start somewhere, and now seems like a good time based on current infection rate, NHS load and the relaxing of other lockdown measures.

I would have to agree. Lives that didn’t need to be are lost all the time. We allow all sorts of occasionally life ending behaviour because society is made better off. An example here is the use of the car, which results many deaths & serious injuries to non-users each year. Additionally, the state, through NICE, routinely places a financial value on human lives/years (QALYs).

Can you all PLEASE get back on topic" Kilmorie School not opening"

Sorry, I appreciate we are going off topic.

In terms of schools reopening - detailed guidelines are all well and good, but the practicalities of implementation on the ground is something only those on the ground can work out…as anyone that has ever tried to follow a Haynes manual to fix an old car will understand.

I think that’s the exact point of the governance structure - those in government strategise while middle layers formulate the actions to be implemented at the bottom.

In this case Lewisham council effectively side-stepped seeing government policy implemented with Cllr Chris Barnham writing to Head Teachers and Governors saying they could effectively operate on their own timetable, independently of the wider strategy to ease lockdown and see other businesses re-open. Kilmore both quoted and directed parents to this letter.

So in this case, that Hayes manual has stayed on the shelf and the car is still broken

This may be useful to some:

Good advice. Though from recent observations leading by example may be difficult for some. Like the family with both parents using the aisles of the Coop as a playground. Or the neighbour who keeps having garden parties with other school parents while complaining about the closures.

We’re stocking up for the spike

And people blame the government! I would like to think people who do that are stupid rather than don’t care but I suspect I may be wrong.

I think it is a combination of both. I was astonished at the start of this that people had to be told to wash their hands properly. I was brought up on a livestock farm and hygiene and infection control was important. My parents taught us to wash hands properly after using the toilet, before eating or cooking and every time we came in to the house. This is a habit I carried over to adulthood.

Me too @HannahM! It’s shocking how many people don’t! Before the lock down I often saw quite respectable looking women go straight from venue and restaurant cubicles to the exit door - pausing only to check their hair and make up in the mirror. In the weeks before lock down I saw a member of staff at a cafe do the same - while still wearing the apron she wore to wait at table!

I’d be interested to know if King’s College Hospital have closeable lids on their loos now. I stopped using them when I realized they didn’t, meaning that people - including uniformed staff - had no alternative but to share everything they were flushing with the cubicle and it’s future users. I wrote to King’s at the time and after being bumped around the houses they said they’d have a word with the cleaners! As if it’s the cleaners fault!!

Yes it seems a lot of knowledge of old has been forgotten. I was reading a news article the other day about how amazing copper is at destroying the virus when it lands on it.

Well in the olden days, door knobs and handles were made out of brass, an alloy of copper, used for its antimicrobial properties!

Back in the olden days doors were a luxury. Knobs and handles even moreso.

I wonder how many people regularly clean their knobs and handles today.

I do. Mainly because I stupidly bought brass handles and they need to be polished regularly!

Ha ha! A couple of weeks before lockdown we went to a local taproom. Staff were extra careful with cleaning and there were signs about washing hands everywhere. I went to use the toilets - these were individual cubicles with a shared washing area. A man came out of his cubicle made straight for the door, saw me washing my hands and sheepishly walked back to the basin and gave then a quick rinse.

I do. But I realized just the other day, and only after I’d pressed it to summon my husband to help me in the garden, that I hadn’t been cleaning my doorbell. I have now! I am queen of the Dettol spray but have long ago run out of Milton.

So, some activist parents want to deny other parents the freedom to return their children to school.

Why? IMO, the activists realise their own kids will fall behind the pack, academically, if they don’t return to school while others do.

So they’re taking the most selfish approach - preventing anyone from accessing school.

And of course there’s a political aspect to this, given the unions are heavily involved.

And one of the protesters in the picture is holding a Unite flag.

I’m not quite sure why that would be a surprise to you. This isn’t a parent’s group. It is the South East London Coronavirus Action Group. I think it’s membership is largely local Unite members working across a number of public services. And their protests and other activities draw in people with similar concerns… like some parents. They’ve also protested about the lack of PPE and testing at Lewisham Hospitals, on issues around safety for passengers and works on public transport like bus drivers. Probably on a number of issues we ourselves could agree with.

So if you want to criticize the actions, criticize the right group. I’ve found trying to conflate a parent’s concern for their children and depicting them as political activists aligned to unions have never ended well, particularly in Forest Hill.

Nothing surprises me @starman, I’m just pointing out what I see in the news article. I don’t think I’m particularly critical of the assembled group, but yes, I would like the choice to send my kids back to school according to the government guidelines.

Oddly Lewisham council has been very supportive of schools delaying reopening on their own timetable (see Cllr Chris Barnham’s letter, linked up thread), so I’m not sure what’s prompted such protest but maybe its just a show of support.

Heck, maybe I should go and protest at Lewisham to re-open schools sooner. Unfortunately I’m too busy trying to home-school kids while holding down a job

I’m not sure how you and others in this and similar situations cope.

Our school Dalmain has confirmed today it will be children of key workers (across all age groups of course) until June 22nd. From then on Y6 and reception can come in. There is no date yet for Y1, or any other years as they want to see how it goes once Y6 and reception are in. In reality that means those years would only have 2-3 weeks maximum back before summer break.

Dalmain are however essentially doing full days which sounds better for working parents than at my nephew’s school where they are going half days. I suspect this means, with the requirement for social distancing and 15 per class, this means, initially anyway, each class needs at least double the space, and maybe more.

I can’t actually see how all years can go back with 15 per class - there just isn’t room. I think we \ the government need to be honest with ourselves and say social distancing isn’t going to work in schools - there is a 0% chance my 6 year old can observe that for a few hours let alone a full day let alone in a class of 30 or so other children - teachers would have an impossible job.

So, to be brutal, I think teachers will need to decide if they want to teach in this scenario, and parents if they want to send their kids in. You’re not going to get 100% of either until a vaccine or treatment is available, so we need to try and find out those numbers for September return. Like with the NHS, we may need to try and get some former teachers back in to help temporarily, and we will need to look to provide suitable centralised online learning tools (and relevant equipment if required) for those who demonstrably cannot attend school.

There are no easy answers here and I suspect schools face many issues we are not aware of. This 15 limit per class has just made it unworkable for many schools IMO, for September if that continues, more staff and more space will be required, which will be logistically almost impossible, or kids rotate 1 week in 1 week off, which is not great for working parents (though better than at present, assuming only 1 child, becomes more complex with 2 or more children).

I completely agree with this, and would accept it too, given the choice to send my children back to school.

However, I think this is just where things start - small groups of upto 15 children and set teachers in bubbles to see how it goes in selected year groups. The government guidelines are clear on the action to be taken if people fall ill, and if that’s the outcome and everyone has to isolate, so be it and the plans stop themselves. But on the other hand if this does work, it’s the first steps to inviting more children in and easing the groups and further developing what works. As you say, these arrangements can’t scale and so will need to be adapted if there is to be any hope of full opening in September - unless of course a silver bullet vaccine is found and an immunisation program rolled out in the next 3 months (seems unlikely, but I’m very happy to be wrong on that!).

Not taking the opportunity to move forward while things look favourable seems like a huge mistake, especially if schools decide to remain closed for the summer holidays which looks very much to be their starting point.

At least these arrangements are being tried out with the children that are permitted to be in schools right now, and private nurseries seem to be opening, so there will be something being learnt about all this in childcare and educational settings.

…and thank goodness for that! My son’s first day back today. It’s important to me and my wife that he gets back to being around other carers and other babies for his own social development and confidence.

I would have thought it better to allow all Year 6 (whose parents want them to) to go back. It’s an important time for them. Some need to say their goodbyes before going to separate Big Schools. And they’re old enough and imaginative enough to understand the need to not hug.

What happens if schools overstretch themselves by opening to too many age groups? If they have allocated space for only small numbers of smaller children and get over subscribed? Will they turn children away if there are too many to social distance?

I think with very young children, where it’s all about learning to socialise, it’s a twisted time for that. It’s hard enough for adults not being able to touch children in normal times nowadays for fear of being looked at askance, or worse. But to imprint a child at this stage with a fear of any sort of close contact is something that could affect them for life.

Primaries are usually year 1 to 6 + reception and possible a nursery also attached (e.g. in Kilmorie’s case). So that’s 7 years in total. The government are asking years 1, 6 and reception to return i.e. 3 years in total. This is less than half capacity, assuming all the years were to return in full, which due to parent concerns they won’t. Also I believe the current bubbles of 15 children are a mix of years, at Kilmorie at least. So I think it’s unlikely that at the current guidance a school should be over capacity but obviously if staff fall ill that could quickly change - that’s why I say the plans could stop themselves, not a particularly bad thing.

If that happens, plans may need to change. Perhaps recently retired teachers maybe called upon to come back, like for healthcare workers?

I think it’s up to parents to choose what’s right for their children. Some children will adapt well, some maybe more anxious, some will be more anxious or vulnerable to stay at home.

At present no one is being forced back to school, but if this is to be the new normal we need to start taking the steps to adapt and tackle this while things look good.

But the alternative is imprinting children with a fear of leaving the house and seeing anyone other than their parents?!

Quick stats from the beeb: How are Covid rules changing across UK schools? - BBC News

They also have used some lovely stock images showing exactly what it won’t be like at the school:

image1400×788 366 KB

Well I would have thought parents in the best position to counter that imprinting and make sure they feel sure and safe rather than fearful. However, I do believe that if a baby or toddler hasn’t had outside contact and neither have grandparents and other family members, then they should be allowed to have physical contact with the those family members. Of course it’s up to individuals now (at least until the deaths shoot up again and a lot of back pedalling happens), but speaking for myself I found those bonds some if life’s most important.

Mind you. I didn’t start school till age 5. And I’ll bet if you asked most grandparents they didn’t either. I don’t think that hindered my social development.

Hopefully the handles on the taps will be a bit more hygienic.

I thought you’d notice that (I did too!)

Except for the lack of social distancing exhibited in the picture. That is likely to happen.

So we have opened although as yet I do not know how many pupils have turned up - not many, much less than the 88 possible.
The amount of work that has gone in to doing so is incredible and as I have mentioned we have lots of resources in terms of space, people and of course money. We have moved the junior school into senior school rooms which are bigger, there are marked walkways through common areas, marked seats where they can have lunch, notices everywhere concerning distancing, sanitisers have been mounted where possible, warnings notices posted in classrooms… It looks sterile and intimidating despite the effort to make it look friendly. Very odd seeing them eat lunch at individual tables and walking around in single file, separated.
I am not sure there is much socialisation going on…

Thanks @Foresthillnick for the insight - certainly not ideal conditions despite the huge effort as you say.

Our school Dalmain will re-open to Year 1 on the 29th June for 5 days, and they will then have a week off before a final 3 days after which summer holiday starts.

My main concern remains for the possible September return. It just can’t happen as things stand in terms of the 15 per class limit so I look forward to that advice changing or alternative provision being made.

As I said in an earlier post, I can’t see all years returning unless parents \ teachers and those otherwise employed \ involved in the school accept the risks as they will be in September (hopefully lower than now). We will surely have to recruit more teachers and many will need to isolate permanently or temporarily, and also have provision for online learning for those children who need to isolate also.

I was in yesterday and distancing among staff is a thing of the past - it just doesn’t work in practice. I completely agree that either we accept the risks or we have to effectively change the way the entire school works or perhaps a bit both. Our management team are totally bewildered as to what to prepare for in September so are having to make several different contingency plans - they all look knackered! We will most likely have a really mixed bag of online and remote learning with some things being completely abandoned (contact sports, instrumental lessones…)It is clear however that not much is going to happen for the rest of this term aside from getting year 10 and 12 in for a few days. Even that is causing issues now as so many people are furloughed - hence me yesterday staring at a sound mixing desk!!

Does that also imply that reception at Dalmain aren’t generally going back before September, as also just announced by Kilmorie?

Sorry I should have been more clear.

Key workers as normal, though I believe there has been an increase in demand further to wider reopening which I guess has added some unexpected pressure.

Reception and Year one will alternate weeks in the school as they don’t have staffing capacity to teach all 4 classes (they effectively have capacity to teach 2 out of the 4 classes).

Y6 are going back but I’m not sure of the hours.

I’m not sure if the nursery has opened again, I think not but not 100% sure.

Y2,3,4 and 5 as elsewhere not going back (as far as I know anyway).

I’m not sure what takeup will be, lots of people have not decided yet, but the parents of some key workers have said that their children are enjoying being in school which is a credit to the staff in what must be difficult settings.

The 15 year old is back to school next Friday. Her biggest worry. Her clothes are 3 months out of date. Deal with that😁

I didn’t read marymck’s post that way. I though she basically saying that generally it’s hard all round, especially for children in the younger years who are still learning to socialise.

Personally I think it’s good for young children to go to playgroup & nursery as it does get them used to not just socialising, but learning to share with others (especially if they are an only child like I was). They will be better prepared as well for school, as even Reception class can seem a scary place especially encountering bigger children & a whole different routine.