New street art on Waldram Park Road - BLM

The site was refreshed today.

What a shame to see all that wonderful art destroyed.

At least we have this topic as a lasting reminder of the talented artists’ work. This one, in particular, was stunning:

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Many of the original pieces had already been refreshed and/or tagged. Those remaining were beginning to wear. It is after all temporary hoarding. I have no doubt something else will come along to replace this new piece in due time.

I liked the previous pieces but agree the nice thing about street art is that it evolves and changes and no one really controls it.

Yeah. It was nice to see some of the artists who contributed in January acknowledge this piece and retweet pictures of it.

Street art is by nature transient but luckily so much is documented and photographed for future study and appreciation.

Then of course there are often t-shirts.

I wouldn’t bet on it.

Agreed. And that it can be provocative and challenging, encourage debate, and keep important issues in the public consciousness. Banksy didn’t become one of the most significant artists of the generation by playing it safe.

What’s nice about Banksy is that a) there’s always artistic merit in his work and b) he doesn’t act as a representative of an organisation.

His work is universal, and witty.

I meant that I doubt we’ll be seeing the back of the latest eyesore any time soon.

ouch… it’s only temporary. Better than looking at a construction site or the old coop for that matter.

Artistic merit is subjective isn’t it? And I didn’t see this immediately as the artists representing an organisation so much as making a point through a widely used statement. Of course they may be part of an organisation, but I don’t think that’s clear.

Yet neither examples are anywhere near as divisive as this eyesore.

Very much prefer this to a building site!

It isn’t a building site. It’s a demolition site.

In that case may i suggest averting your eyes or taking a different route. Seems like the majority are enjoying this urban canvas.

I’m clearly a glass half full kind of person.

Time for a tea and biscuit break everyone.

A few people posting on a local forum doesn’t in any way constitute as the majority consensus of SE23.

True. And he certainly hasn’t shied away from this issue. With no words, you could argue it is more subtle then the new piece on Waldram Park Road. But some might suggest an image of a burning flag is much, much more political. Like any art, the answer will always be different depending on the viewer.

Also true. Not every artists sells t-shirts.

So what would you want to see?

Let’s start with a straw poll to see how people feel:

Note that this poll is:

• anonymous, so we can represent those who prefer not to put their name to a public comment on this emotive issue
• restricted to trust-level-1 members and above, so it won’t be easily gamed by new signups

This poll could miss the point. What about people who prefer the old one, but believe the new one should be there at the moment?

Is it possible to simultaneously prefer it wasn’t there and believe it should be there?

How about this (which I mean as a polite suggestion): consider your vote to represent your opinion on the hoarding. Not what you think other people feel about it, or what other people should be compelled to view on the hoarding.

…

Or just click the “other” option?

I don’t think that’s what beige said…

If this really just a poll PURELY about the aesthetics then the question and options are valid, but, imho, that’s only part of the conversation on this topic (of waldram park road).

I don’t think we need another poll. It’s not really about the new artwork or the old one. It’s about wether that space should be used as a temporary canvas. You’re opening up a whole other avenue where people have very strong opinions… Ceci n’est pas une pipe

If you want to ask this question feel free to start a poll of your own.

See: How to create a poll

I wasn’t the one who originally posted about this new banner on the forum. Perhaps take it up with @starman if you disagree with this banner being discussed here?

I think we should use the space as a giant consultation board on traffic calming measures, then we can wrap up two threads at the same time.

Why should he take it up with me?

I rather thought chamonix’s thoughtful response came in nicely under ‘other - please comment’ if indeed they chose that.

And I sincerely wish there was a option for the Magritte reference.

Sigh. I can’t vote for whatever reason and despite asking to be verified. I’m all for it though.

Lol did you just start pointing fingers like a child with chocolate on their hands? Your poll is essentially A) do you prefer the anti racist slogan or B) The pretty pictures

Let’s keep politics out of this. I think we can all agree on the message.

Let’s be respectful of each other.

And let’s acknowledge the fact anti-racists may reject some of the goals and methods of this particular organisation/movement, whose founders have made clear is more than just an anti-racist organisation.

Let’s also bear in mind that not all black people support BLM, despite the fact it purports to speak for them.

As I said, I was not the one that brought BLM into this thread, so if you want to point fingers, or if you don’t think it should be discussed here, please flag the original post, and @moderators can consider removing that (and the subsequent discussion)

Just as when Starman posted an update simply saying the art had been refreshed, your response here is unnecessarily political and digresses in to areas that I think some members of the forum would like to rebut, but don’t as it’s against the forum rules.

No, sorry. My response above is not “political.”

It’s a measured statement of fact and does not discuss politics at all.

Oh good so we should be able to continue the conversation.

I think it’s a shame that when this movement is gaining traction and shining a light on decades of institutional racism that people will take the opportunity to point out perceived flaws in the organisation that started it, or to make statements like “Let’s also bear in mind that not all black people support BLM, despite the fact it purports to speak for them”. Not only does this painting not purport to speak for anyone (where is that motion from?), this to me is equivalent to saying “of course black lives matter, but white lives matter too”. Both can of course be statements of fact but these types of statement detract from a cause that needs support to succeed against institutional racism.

I also think referring to statements from individuals that you might disagree with, or activities of other protestors as criticism of this art or any other use of the term black lives matter is another distraction. The people painting this sign didn’t make those other statements, we don’t know if they employ the methods of protest you disagree with, they just painted a widely recognised message of support to the black community. If you take issue with other forms of protest then here is a good peaceful one to support. I think it’s a real shame when people’s first instinct is to respond by saying “yes but some protestors are violent, and the artwork was nice before”.

I did not point out or suggest any “flaws” in those people.

Please don’t make straw man arguments against me.

Be aware that the founders’ motivation was more than just anti-racism. And “anti-racist” / “anti-fascist” organisations are sometimes used as a Trojan horse for other agendas.

Which statements did I refer to? Which activities did I refer to?

Bravo

The painters’ motivation wasn’t, though (which is the point of this post). It was to visualise and voice a movement of great significance, both on a global level and to our community. Most people will look at this artwork at face value and see it as a sobering reminder to educate themselves and consider their own privilege. There’s no coded message inciting violence and mass gatherings. It’s topical, it’s important, and as with any cause, the actions of the few should not be clouding the motivations and the ideals of the many.

Well your original post read:.
“What a shame to see all that wonderful art destroyed and replaced with the polarising slogan of a political movement” and linked to an incendiary article badging BLM a radical neo Marxist movement, by the same Alexandra Phillips that threatened a journalist for investigating her involvement in Cambridge analytica.

Then you referred to methods and messages from founders (activities and statements) here:

“And let’s acknowledge the fact anti-racists may reject some of the goals and methods of this particular organisation/movement, whose founders have made clear is more than just an anti-racist organisation.”

Of course if you didn’t mean to suggest that these are your views and you were just suggesting views others may hold then I apologise for being presumptuous.

It was only an “incendiary” article because it explodes some of the arguments presented in the last few posts, and proved some points that commenters in this topic would probably rather we didn’t explore. The article didn’t “brand” the founders. The article quoted the founders themselves.

BLM is much more than just “anti-racism,” and there are reasons why non-racist people may disagree with the slogan being painted in 20 metre stretches of public space.

Imagine if I painted “Let’s Take Back Control” on a hoarding. I could argue that as a painter, I’m just posting a positive message about self-confidence. But others may read more into that message and disagree with the other connotations that it promotes. Thus it would be divisive.

For the same reason I edited my original comment, I’m not going to take this conversation deeper down the rabbit hole, out of respect for the forum’s guidelines and the long-suffering @moderators

You’ve made your points, I’ve made mine. I’m going to leave it there.

I voted other. A. It’s not artwork (unless there’s an image I’ve not seen), it’s not skilled signwriting (unlike much of the local graffiti), it’s not very skilled, it’s a slogan. Quite an obvious slogan, because of course black lives matter. I hope it was done in a socially distanced manner, so that people could walk past safely, because of course lives matter.

B. Graffiti breeds graffiti. If it has to be done anywhere, let it be done on the graffitist’s own property or on temporary hoardings.

C. Speaking generally: I sort of don’t actually care whether any “street art” aka graffiti is considered artistic nor do I care if it gets graffitied over, because no doubt all those graffitists think they’re artistic. I think I can sing, despite all evidence and opinion to the contrary.

I think it’s incendiary by taking a movement against police brutality and protesting specifically due to a recent murder and trying to spark a debate about Marxism that no one within the movement actually seems to be actively promoting . Whether that’s what some of the founders believe in it’s clearly not the crux of the issue.

I agree someone should put this topic on a tea break!

Clearly people want to discuss the BLM issue and this particular thread seems to have found a home for the discussion. It’s borderline politics but seems to be generating good debate. We don’t want to be breaking forum rules or guidelines so please let us know if you want to continue discussion, I can split it off into @moderator_actions or a separate thread, we can close it and start a new thread when someone paints some new art or we can have a tea break for a few days. I don’t want to heavy handedly kill the discourse.

Edit: it’s an anonymous poll.

Nice idea, thanks

Good idea @clausy. I’m mindful that this topic could turn nasty (as I’ve experienced in the past when BLM is discussed, especially when anon members are allowed to participate) so I’ve voted for it to be closed

But obviously I am interested in the topic. I just hope people can avoid a) making the discussion personal b) implying that those who disagree with the BLM organisation and methods are “racist” c) straw man arguments.

I voted split. Take the politics out of the discussion on graffiti and put it in one of those private room members’ only type places. Because I’d feel the same about any slogan and I don’t want to feel I’m walking on eggshells if I want to make a comment on graffiti but can’t for fear of it being misinterpreted as a comment about BLM.

As per your earlier comment, I think everyone involved has made their points, no need to re-iterate. The question is really do other people want to contribute to the discussion. Personally I think there are better places to discuss these sorts of things.

I think it is perfectly reasonable to discuss the Waldram Park Road street art and its impact on the Forest Hill community. The original work also included inspirational messaging, though perhaps on not quite so an emotive topic.

There has been some excellent discussion in the last 24 hours on the social impact of street art. I found Fran_Payne’s post particularly insightful, as I did marymck’s post questioning it’s efficacy.

And of course, how this impacts the community is as equally relevant as discussion on traffic orders.

As for the issue of legality, I understood that permission was sought from the site owner for the original work. I’ve also been told - albeit second hand - that this current piece was also approved.

6 posts were split to a new topic: New street art on Perry Vale

This post was flagged and is temporarily hidden.

Have no fear. Next time you’re in Forest Hill you can still see your favourite capping the corner.

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That’s a massive relief. Thanks for posting. Looks so beautiful and nicely painted, compared to what’s on either side of it.

You beat me to it, I just cycled past and was thinking hang on, it’s still there.

I did like the banana though…

Anyway I went down to the food bank to help deliver some packages to help some people with their lives instead of watching you all argue about it. See this thread for details.. Yes I’m feeling smug. Sorry.

Ha ha. The banana rotted, went in the garbage bag and then disappeared long before BLM appeared.

I wasn’t accusing anyone of covering up the banana! Just said it was my favourite

Could we keep BLM and have artists be creative around the letters?