Proposed Development on Duncombe Hill Green - Planning Refusal Being Appealed [Dismissed]

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Continuing the discussion from Refused: Proposed Development on Duncombe Hill Green [2020]:

The saga continues, unfortunately, and this precious green space on Brockley Rise / Duncombe Hill is once again under threat. Today, the developer has lodged an appeal against the planning refusal:

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https://acp.planninginspectorate.gov.uk/ViewCase.aspx?Caseid=3256304&CoID=0 (click “search for a case - current service”)

@matt_l, I’m aware you kindly contributed to the legal effort last time. Are you willing/able to get involved in this appeal process?

Note the “Make Representation” link allows you to add a comment as an interested party. Looks like comments close on 21st September.

For reference, the application being appealed (DC/19/111251) had 131 comments posted and all were objections.

Also of interest is that the original descision notice was published on 24th January 2020 and includes the following direction under the “Appeals to Secretary of State”:

Seems like it should have missed the boat for appealing already, but perhaps C19 can be an excuse for anything these days?

Comments added!

Appeal statement (PDF):

https://planning.lewisham.gov.uk/online-applications/files/1EFA0AF3221AC3399787E16FB374260E/pdf/DC_19_111251-APPEAL_DOCUMENTS-923161.pdf

Appeals documents:

https://planning.lewisham.gov.uk/online-applications/applicationDetails.do?activeTab=documents&keyVal=_LEWIS_DCAPR_99164

I see from the appeals documents that the appeal form was electronically submitted on 20th July, so 4 days before the 6 month window elapsed

They must not win this!!

I’ve been waiting for a decision on this appeal, which is marked on the planning portal with “Event Date w/c 22 Oct 2020”, but so far no updates.

However, there are sad and worrying reports that the grass inside the fence has gone all brown and died, while the grass outside the fenced area is still green and healthy. The suspicion is that weed killer or salt may have been used to damage the land

Apparently the council are going to inspect, but if anyone knows anything about this, it would be worth contacting Lewisham or the Crofton Park Ward Councilors:

• Councillor Tauseef Anwar
• Councillor Chris Barnham
• Councillor Pauline Morrison

Particularly Cllr Anwar spoke at the original planning committee hearing in opposition of the development, so will be well aware of this case.

I really hope the trees aren’t also damaged by what looks like a deliberately spiteful act from out-of-town property developers looking to make a quick profit - though I must point out there is no evidence that this is the case.

Appeal dismissed!

Fantastic!

Because the Inspectorate website is so slow and frequently falls over, here is a copy of the report:

Appeal Decision 3256304.pdf (145.7 KB)

I’m pretty sure it was already established that the hoarding doesn’t have planning permission. I really hope Lewisham can move towards enforcement both to get the hoarding down, and require proper maintenance of the area as noted above.

What is the process - and what timescale are we talking about?

I’m not sure. The previous ones definitely didn’t, but the current ones I guess can count as a fence, which I think you can just put up. They’ve reduced them on the sides where the roads are to 1M to comply with that obligation so I would hazard I guess they’d be allowed now, as hideous as they look.

The grass also appears to be have been treated with something inside the ‘fence’, though again nothing illegal with that as far as I am aware. Distasteful and uneccesary again, and pesticides, assuming that is what was used, not good for the environment as we know.

The trees are protected I believe, however they wouldn’t be the first developer to just cut them down or otherwise kill them, that would be my greatest concern at the moment.

Hi @AnotherJohn - I think there is some info here: https://www.gov.uk/guidance/neighbourhood-planning--2

I guess the problem is that we have a malevolent out-of-town property developer determined to turn some profit from this little bit of land, and there’s little to currently stop them trying to change the plans until something is finally accepted (in fact the appeal refusal from the Planning Inspectorate noted that further adjusted plans had been submitted with the appeal, but those were irrelevant to the appeal process which instead looks at the decision made by Lewisham on the basis of the application as it stood at that point in time).

So it seems something needs to be done to try and safe-guard that once grassy triangle, and neighbourhood planning maybe a tool to do that.

There was previously an enforcement notice to remove the hoarding - it is linked in this post: Proposed Development on Duncombe Hill Green [2018-2019]

Reading the enforcement notice, I do not think that simply lowering the corner complies with the council’s instruction as they ask for the whole thing to be removed, along with any debris. There was apparently an appeal on the enforcement notice, but I struggle to find any reference to it at present.

I would hope Lewisham move toward enforcement if there is no ongoing appeal for that enforcement.

If the poison (could be herbicide or salt) affects the trees - which are protected by Tree Preservation Orders - it could invite a fine.

Thank you - and I agree that this developer isn’t finished yet.

Very true, but they did remove it all so I don’t know how it then stands if they put a ‘new’ fence up which probably complies?

From the previous enforcement notice, the reasons were well beyond just visibility at the corner:

It’s an interesting point though - if you comply with the instruction and then undo it later, I would like to think that there must be some consequence, otherwise what’s the point of an enforcement notice if it can so easily be side stepped in cases such as this?

I’m surprised that any of the illegal hoardings are still standing. I’m sure it wouldn’t take much for some vandals to knock them down.

Does anybody have any concerns about different ways that this illegal hoarding could be removed by irate neighbours - you know the sort of thing: sawing supporting posts, removing nails - can anybody else think of other ways the hoardings might not stand up to attack from angry mobs?

And does anybody have any particular times that they are concerned about people theoretically meeting up, tooled up for such abhorrent activities?

I don’t know. I suspect they could say they have complied and then put up after a period of time more suitable fences. I think the point above still stands about the appearance, but you can now see the ‘dead’ grass and trees so might be harder to argue the fact, and I suspect the council have other priorities right now. They might also argue the writing on them was not done by them etc - I’m purely speculating but suspect they would have a stronger case now as it doesn’t dominate as much - still hideous but they could maybe be asked to paint them over…anyway I’ll stop my uninformed ramblings…

I have wondered if these might fall over at some point, but I think if they did so in high winds for example, they would potentially cause a risk to people walking past if not secured appropriately.

I still struggle to understand their behaviour. Whilst I am sure there would have been opposition to the development scheme, acting in the way they did by boarding it up galvanised resistance to the plans far more than simply submitting an application would have. Bizarre behaviour and / or some very bad advice.

The one (and possibly only) positive to the death of the grass will be that come spring seed could accidentally fall or be blown in by the wind into the area and you could have the possibility of meadow flowers or other similar schemes which would look amazing. I might wander past on a windy day next year if the ground is still relatively bare.

Have often wondered what could possibly happen if enough people just so happened to be passing a certain green space at the same time…

I thought I would try and get a before and after pic of this sorry site:

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The camera lens really makes the area look bigger than it is - when walking by it is hard to imagine a block of flats on such a small setting.

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That would be very fortunate because bare earth will be quickly over grown with weeds unless something better were to find it’s way there.

Hopefully some squirrels will bury a few acorns there too

I was watching nature slowly take back this corner as spring was re-greening and nurturing it, perhaps aided by some guerilla gardeners and butterfly friendly wild seeds:

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Unfortunately it looks like the land has been ‘treated’ again as the ‘green’ is once more dessicated and brown today and the seedlings have perished:

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I find it hard to comprehend the wickedness and failings that allow this once green patch of land to be repeatedly poisoned and vandalised in this way.

That’s outrageous.

Ultimately people can you use whatever pesticides they like on their land, and whilst there will be much condemnation of this (rightly so), there will be plenty of people using them in gardens, allotments and patios etc (I’m against all pesticide use generally to be clear!). Doing it at this time of year is especially not great as it will likely also kill lots of insects in the grass and plants.

As I mentioned further up, I really don’t understand the developers thoughts. They seem to periodically engage in acts of effective local vandalism, and in this case enviromental vandalism, on their own property which will only annoy likely objectors. From erecting their ridiculous fence, to then taking it down, putting back a lower one, ‘treating’ the grass they could not score more owngoals if they tried.

I bet they’d have had less objections if they’d not put the boards up in the first place. Bizarre.

I think it was a nice for someone to plants stuff on the land, but I can see why the developer pulled them out as soon as they noticed as (a) it’s their land and (b) they were planted by trespassers… So it’s not exactly another example of outrageous behaviour by the developer.

Also - for all the developer knows - it could have been something like Japanese knotweed to try and mess up the site

I think that would be fine (not great but fine), but some grass was growing, which appears from the photos to now be dead, which means it’s likely been treated again.

Yeah - the seedlings weren’t pulled out, they have died like everything else that was green. Probably glycophosphate I’d guess, and they didn’t look like knotweed to me - thought knotweed is pretty hard to destroy even with glyphosphate (I think it has to be -injected- into the stems by specialists!).

Certainly it’s their land and they can do what they like (as they are spitefully demonstrating), but the tree’s have TPOs and I’m doubtful that repeated application of herbicide is having no effect.

Clearly playing a long and spiteful game here, slowly damaging the trees until they can be removed and the land developed.

If it is the developer who’s killed the grass and pulled-up the new plants, I think it’s pathetic.
Dealing for that plot in the first instance was always highly speculative, and any payback was likely to be a long way in the future, so making a mess of the place just because he’s underestimated or not fully understood the planning implications is childlike in my opinion.
Okay, local people made their collective voice of opposition heard, but, ultimately, it was planning policy that put the block on his propsals, not the people.
You win some, you lose some - and move on accordingly.

DC/18/109671 placed a Tree Preservation Order on the group of 5 trees on the green:

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That order requires that:

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Here’s a picture of the Crab Apple at the corner most extent of the green:

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Note the brown and dessicated leaves on the suckers - clearly it has been sprayed too.

Personally I would suggest that is wilful damage to the tree, against the terms of the TPO and the Council should take an interest.

The notion that the land owner is unable to maintain the land and is spraying it to defend against knotweed is both disingenuous and frankly ridiculous. Hiring someone with a lawn mower would be sufficient to maintain the land - heck, I reckon there might even be some locals that would be willing to mow it for free. As pointed out on Twitter, the council could also issue a Section 215 notice to require proper maintenance of the land.

If however the council is uninterested in protecting the trees, they should cancel the TPOs and start a dialog about a suitable approach to planning - call it a small site and do something useful with it.

I think the current path of acrimony is good for no-one and will likely take the (limited) lifetime of the trees to resolve to the same outcome in any case, just after much friction.

Has anyone reported this to the Council’s Tree Officer? I know she’s terribly overworked, as Lewisham puts such little value on its trees that they only have one tree officer for the whole of the borough, but she might be able to do something as this is such a prominent Open Space.

Also just how safe is it to be spraying strong weedkiller around on such a site, adjacent to footpaths?

Has anyone tackled the owners of the site? Presumably still the three investors named at Companies House?

The weedkiller being used on the grass, if it’s very strong, may also be permeating down and damaging the roots of these protected trees in breach of 2 (a) or (b) of the order.

Its nothing less than environmental thuggery, but I would be amazed if anyone from the council is remotely interested.

Tree down

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It’s been like that since at least November, see post #22

Have just walked past and it’s crazy what is still going on here. Anyone know what the current status is? Is the Neighbourhood Planning in progress? The appeal was rejected in November so another eight months gone by of it lying in a pitiful state.

Let’s all who want this land kept natural keep planting the land with flowers etc.
Something has to be done about such acts….we are just fed up of these kinds. They have no respect to how they do things. They just throw there money about how they please just to get what they want!! Basically Spoilt adult type children. #SaveDuncombeHill #SaveTheGreen #LoveOurGreenPreciousSpaces
🪲:snail:

I suspect they will just play the long game, make the site as derelict looking as possible until the council agrees to allow flats to be built on it.

My gut feeling is that this will never be a building plot so I hope the council will get on and take the necessary and appropriate action against this untidy site, which may now also be hazardous due to strong weedkillers (?), and have the open green space reinstated.

I’m not sure what action the council can realistically take, other than buying the land, which I suspect won’t make it to the top of their next budget meeting.

I hope you are right and there is something that can be done, but I just see years of standoff.

Perhaps the council could serve a section 215 notice requiring the land to be properly maintained:

There maybe reasons this isn’t appropriate legislation to use or isn’t applicable, though given the council’s housing objectives and the planning committee’s willingness to allow removal of trees for infill property developments, I do wonder how motivated the Local Planning Authority can be to protect Duncombe Hill Green.

This seems slightly odd, though I guess it could in theory be charged back.

This sounds good on paper, I’m not hopeful on it happening though.

Given the apparent guerilla gardening attempts already on the green (or should it be more accurately called a ‘brown’ now?), I think it wouldn’t be so hard to organise a gardening group to give it a quick make-over for free - if there were willing from the land owner and they promised not to immediately respray it with herbicide.

Totally up for that. Happy to contact someone at Investor Alliance to get the ball rolling.

UPDATE: OK, so cannot find any phone details for the company. Writing to them would in all likelihood not receive a speedy reply, if at all. So, given they’re not based locally, why don’t we just set a date for a group of us to do a spot of judicious tendering. Yes, I know it’s now private land blah blah, but it’s currently going to ruin. Anyone interested? If you are, I suggest a WhatsApp group to prevent any dates being posted here.

#GreenPower
#NatureWarriors
🪲:snail:

These people need to find places that are in need of serious make overs. Or support I mean So many buildings etc are looking for TLC.

I think Councillor Tauseef Anwar may have contact details, and while he may not be able to share them directly, he may be able to assist in establishing a dialog with the stakeholders?

His contact details are here: Lewisham Council - Councillor details - Councillor Tauseef Anwar

I’m happy to make a group PM here on SE23.life, or make a private topic / area if that’s a preference to WhatsApp.

Ok, thanks, I’ll contact him in the first instance and then we can decide what action to take and how best to communicate.

Good luck @Mac_SE23 , I hope something can be done. I have put my negativity on hold.

I think I read here or elsehwere that they were spraying the grass as they could not afford to upkeep it, so in theory if people wanted to look after it that should help everyone and reduce their cost.

I might be able to help, so drop me a DM if oyu make any progress.

Thanks, will do. I’m no gardener, but very happy to be directed by those in the know. This ridiculous situation has gone on far too long and I’m fed up seeing it slowly die.

Re the fence, I’m going to ask if we can paint a mural of wild flowers on its outside. That would hopefully make it look far less depressing than it currently is.

This is a great idea. If I’m honest I’ve been hoping some street artist would do the job over a few nights!

Hi @Mac_SE23

Did you manage to speak to them in the end?

Hi Oakr, thanks for the nudge. I didn’t get any response from the mobile numbers I found online for them, so contacted Councillor Tauseef who kindly provided me email address. I’m afraid I have only just emailed for which apologies, but let’s hope my request to address the area and bring it back to its former glory falls on receptive ears. Will let you know as and when I hear anything.

EDIT: just had this response, to which I have already pushed back on:

'Thank you for your email. We do have plans to resubmit an other planning application in due course.

Indeed the appeal was dismissed last year, however the inspector did confirm that the site in question is not an open space but didn’t like the architectural plans we submitted, hence the dismissal. We will work to propose a more suitable plan for the area and take onboard the recommendations made by the inspector in regards to the design. I can assure you that once we complete our project for this land it will enhance the street appearance. In the mean while I also proposed an alternative scheme for the local council to consider, which would have provided a pocket of open space for the local residents but unfortunately the council didn’t even reply to my proposal.

Due the above outlined plan for this site I cannot accept your very kind offer. I can appreciate this may not be exactly what you were expecting as a reply and ask you to bear with us for a short while longer. If you have any questions please do feel free to reach out to me.’

Just had a response to my push-back:

‘I really do appreciate your good intentions but unfortunately no third party maintenance will be accepted by the company I represent and also will be outside of the company’s insurance policy.

I know this is frustrating but we will try to speed up an application on our side to keep this window to a minimum.’

So it’s a ‘no’, unfortunately.

I think that shows an interpretation of someone’s reading of the Inspector’s report through some heavily rose-tinted specs.

Any design for a building and the remaining greenery that has enough merit to actually overcome the Inspector’s concerns will be worth seeing - maybe even to the extent that it could, on balance, make a positive contribution to the area - but I’d be extremely sceptical of that actually happening because, in my opinion, it would need to be on a considerably smaller scale, which probably wouldn’t make the scheme finacially viable.

As it was at the bottom of my road (Agnew) and a local hang-out for me and my mates in the 70s, I’ll be watching this space!

Thanks for trying @Mac_SE23 .

I love that their insurance won’t cover some seed sowing , wonder if it covers the large collection of beer cans accumulating under one tree …

My push-back highlighted the lengthy timeframe of any new application and its subsequent appeals should it not be successful, along with the further impact that would have on an already neglected piece of land.

Disappointing but hey, they’re not locals so why would they care what we have to walk past on a regular basis as members of the local community?

I’m pretty certain that the public liability insurance from the Forest Hill Society would cover any maintainence that was agreed by the owner of the property. But that might depend on the poison used in the area to deliberately make it an eyesore.

Council needs to demand improvement to the property section 215 if i remember correctly.

Where can I find that clause, Michael?

Have a look ForestHull’s post of 21st July

Linky: Proposed Development on Duncombe Hill Green - Planning Refusal Being Appealed [Dismissed] - #44 by ForestHull

Any more news on this? I’m convinced the ground has been poisoned there, as the trees are gradually dying, as far as I can see, and the whole area is a depressing reminder of just how awful us humans can be to nature. It’s sickening.

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And what is the purpose of the horrid fences? To keep people out, from what? Nature? If someone’s claiming ownership they can start by tidying it up.

I’ll contact the owner again to see if he has an update and will ask the question re the fence.

It’s awful, it was a pleasant little bit of green, now it’s a litter stewn scrubland. These people ought to have the book thrown at them.

Completely understand your ire. But I’d be throwing the book at the council who made the decision to sell the land off in the first place.

Ahh I didn’t know that.

Yes, a firm called Investor Alliance based in Luton purchased it and immediately fenced it off, to what end I have no idea. I’ll try and appeal again to my contact’s civic duty and ask the fence be taken down allowing us to get in and give the space some much needed TLC.

OK, so have sent another email, and thanks @HannahM I borrowed your line:

'I am getting in touch again to see what the latest update is as there is now a growing, significant community unhappiness at the way the land, once a lovely open green space but now nothing more than a litter strewn scrubland, is being left to rot in front of their eyes.

As the owner of a piece of land in an urban environment, your firm has a civic duty to maintain it, something which is definitely not happening since it was purchased. The trees desperately need to be pruned and the grass brought back to life and all as soon as possible.

Regarding the fence, people simply cannot understand why it was erected in the first place. To keep people out? From what, an open green space that they previously had unhindered access too? They see it as nothing more than an unnecessarily aggressive tactic from a developer with no connection to the area and it has done nothing but generate bad feeling towards your firm.

Can I therefore recommend the following:

• the fence be taken down with immediate effect. There’s absolutely no need for it. If you win your next planning permission, it makes no difference if there’s a fence there or not.
• the trees are professionally pruned
• the community restore the space to how it was before it was sold.

I hope this email conveys just how unhappy people are about this, but a few simple gestures would go a long way to making them feel a lot better about it.’

BTW, I also copied in Councillor Anwar to hopefully add more weight.

I do not think the council ever owned or sold the land. I understood (see previous threads about all this) the land was owned for many years by JC Decaux, the advertising hoarding people. They eventually sold it - at auction wasn’t it?

The Council then refused to sell the new owners/developers the Council’s strip of land, the pathway running alongside. Also refused to swap any of their land.

No, the villains of this are the developers who are playing a long game and ensuring the site is seen clearly as private land and making sure it remains an eyesore.

But that land has been there long before they ever came into existence?

Re the villains, I’m guessing their long game is to leave the green to rack and ruin for long enough that the council eventually cave in. If so, it’s a disgraceful tactic.

I was just saying that the Council did not own that land. Just thought you were blaming them unfairly.

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A Section 215 being issued surely can’t be far off?

Perhaps Cllr Anwar could advise?

Thanks for clarifying; good to know.

So given the hoardings we’re supposed to be removed in 2019 why are they still up?

The original fencing in was not legal at some 2 m high. It was eventually taken down after protests and in compliance with Lewisham’s requirement. The current replacement fence , however ugly, is legal, I think 3 feet high is allowed in this location from what others have said.

Ah yes, do remember that first fence.

I doubt it. The council issued a notice to remove the 2m hoardings in 2019. The council could have issued a s215 notice to properly maintain the site in October 2020, when it was mentioned by the planning inspector. After 16 months I think we can assume the council have no interest in any enforcement action on this site. Officer and councillors would probably prefer that the site continues to be poisoned until there can be a successful planning application to build housing on this site - in line with the council’s target of building as much housing as possible across Lewisham borough.

But perhaps I’m wrong. Is anybody aware of anything done by councillors or council officers to improve this site since October 2020?

Thank you very much for that

i say let’s keep on the council and developers and see where we get to. And regardless, the number of flats they’ll be able to squeeze in is hardly likely make a dent in their housing targets.

I hear these storms have reaked havoc on those horrible wooden fences. Fortunately local people have made it safe.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/SaveDuncombeHillGreen/permalink/1289772321518325/

I was wondering who that was - they did a great job clearing up. I’d assumed it was the council / developers as opposed to a couple of locals - well done them.

The whole high bit of the fence is now down, let’s see for how long.

Its a shame the subsequent high winds didn’t blow those panels onto the back of a flat bed truck just as it was heading to the dump.

Never understood the purpose of that #$*%! fence. Apart from just severely peeing off the local community, all it did was to visually say ‘this is now our land.’ Absolutely no need for it. They could have left it as it was and let us continue to enjoy it until such time as an application was successful.

Was an utterly tone deaf gesture from an utterly tone deaf developer.

As residents of Duncombe Hill, please can I draw your attention to this plan which is up for voting for on Election Day!

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Sadly the fence has now been repaired:

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Can only presume the council got in touch with the developer.

I assume they just follow the SE23 forum… I don’t think youhave to be a member to read the posts…

Yes, good point.

So, if you are reading this, Investor Alliance, thanks for ruining what for many years was a perfectly lovely area for us to enjoy. And for what reason other than to just selfishly say ‘this is ours’? Any developer with an ounce of emotional intelligence buying land in the middle of a local community would have known to have left it precisely as it was.

Here’s hoping for a lot more windy weather.

Note that the Neighbourhood plan cannot contradict anything in the council local plan. So if a green space is not protected in the local plan then the question to ask council is: why not?

This also means that this initiative is of limited use in planning terms. What it does do, however, is neatly divide the Honor Oak area without a valid democratic mandate to do so (locals who were never properly consulted are outside the Ward boundary this relates to so have no say on it).

To be clear, this is being badged as relating to Crofton Park Ward (true but only in a voting sense so disingenuous). The actual name of the “neighbourhood”, which under the Localism act has no assumption to be the same area as a London ward, is actually Crofton Park and Honor Oak Park Neighbourhood Plan.

Anyone know why the tall side is still up given the original enforcement notice requested it be taken down?

I think the original enforcement also called for careful have removal of the fence posts and decompaction of the soil…

So still up and in breach of the notice? If that’s the case wonder why LBL haven’t enforced its removal?

Wasn’t the original issue that the fences were too high on the road side.

They then took it all down and put up smaller boards on the road sides.

I suspect they are allowed to have boards up, as annoying and horrible looking as they are.

That was indeed the case, so it means the accessway fence was put up, and has remained up, illegally.

It’s all been taken down now. Does anyone know what’s going on?

The tall fence is still very much up.