Any plans for The Hill?

Hi, does anyone know if there are any plans for the former site of The Hill?

This is the last we heard about The Hill. Sad to see it close

Not heard of any plans either

Saw someone from Enterprise inns in there today as they had a company come in to clear out rubbish.

They have a new tennant who will be opening soon for 6 month to get the feel of what locals would like food and drink wise, they will then close to do a full refit & I was told a lot of money will be spent on it.

The chap I spoke to today said he’ll pop in to give me updates when he’s around.

Looking forward to this reopening

In Spring this year there was a licence variation application I noticed displayed on the front of The Hill from ‘Craft Union’. So I suppose they will take on the site. They talk a good spiel on the website, although lacks info on their existing sites. Looks to me like a standard tie-in operator - I hope i’m proved wrong! https://www.craftunionpubs.com/#about

Looks like another arm of Enterprise Inns as have same registered address.

I asked about Craft Union and the chap seems to think it was someone else.

I’ll post any updates as and when I get them.

Im dying to know who the owners will be.

Hi everyone, I’m following this thread as I would like to turn the Hill into a wasteless supermarket with a small theatre above!!! (Like the Brockley Jack theatre)

I think there’s a planning application to remodel the flats above. You might want to check it.

The original application to reconfigure the flats was refused.

If the campaign to save the ALL In One is anything to go by, changing The Hill from a pub to a shop will be a major challenge.

Although, arguably, The Hill isn’t a pub. It’s a dead space, and has been for far too long.

I love this idea. Have you looked at Waters old fruit and veg site? Or is that too small?

I think these sort of places will only grow in appeal

I agree. The zero waste revolution needs to happen! Where is Waters old fruit and veg site please? It doesn’t have to be massive although The Hill is so big I was inspired to add the theatre above idea and am now very excited by that!

It’s two doors down from @ClaptonCraft here is the thread Waters fishmongers Would be perfect if you had a few bits to pick up after work too. I would definitely support your store I’m desperate for something like this!

True. But a lot of that time was lost due to some legal wranglings due to the arrangement between the previous landlord, his partner and the brewery. I spoke to a rep for the owners about a year ago and he told me that they were planning to refurb and re-open. From my perspective, the recent relatively short period of no activity is insignificant because I’ve known it as a pub since the late 70’s (ish?) when it was The Bar Cave.

A zero-waste store would be amazing! Something on the Perry Vale side would suit me personally but either side would of course be great.

Just wanted to add that on lots of the parents’ forums on Facebook this type of venture is very popular! Families in the area seem keen to reduce waste. Of course people have to come out and support you rather than just talk about it!

I thought there was a “pilot” craft pub going into The Hill???

That’s all we need - drunk pilots.

Love the idea of a theatre on the Hill site with the shop below. No reason why this would not fly given it gets planning approval. A great draw to Dartmouth Road for day time and evening

Wish someone would start a theatre on the ground floor somewhere.

Penge has the wonderful Bridge Theatre with excellent productions, but so many steep stairs to get there!

Perhaps a lift will be installed

Alas, lifts no good for me either. Don’t ask!

Spent many a teenage year there when it was the Malt Shovel. Decent pub quiz on a Thursday night, live 3pm football on a Saturday and a decent beer on a Sunday. Was never the same when it became the Hill.

Yes, the Malt Shovel.
Around '92, I was living above the shop that’s now Sugar Mountain and there was a period when at least one Saturday night every month my evenings included watching running battles with guys from the Malt Shovel smashing bottles over each other’s heads and police chasing them all up and down Dartmouth Road.
Very entertaining theatre that was - and all on ground floor level (@topofthehill).

Never went there on a Saturday was either up town or down the Venue. Always thought the basement space was underused.

I remember the Malt Shovel and did go in there on the very odd occasion.

However, I did not experience the free entertainment - thankfully!

Ha!
It was like group cage fighting - without the cage!

Just as well I didn’t reserve ringside seats then!

“Come fly with me, we’ll fly, we’ll fly away
If you can use some exotic booze
There’s a bar in far Bombay…”

I think Andy is half way there.

Brilliant idea - both the zero waste store and the theatre! Nunhead has just got a zero waste store that seems to be doing really well. Good luck Rhia - hope you manage to pull it off! X

I remember the Malt Shovel, it was best avoided. Bird was much more convivial

A zero waste style shop in the empty Waters unit would be amazing!

Thanks Firefly! and Pea I called the number outside Waters yesterday and the availability of that space is still tenuous so the lady took my number and said she’d call when more is known. She also said there is a lot of interest in it. I noticed Miss Moneypenny is up for lease a bit further down next to tattoo shop so I viewed that this morning. Not big enough for theatre though

I wonder why it’s not ready for rent? How annoying. Did you like the space?

The space that you see from the front isn’t even a half of it!
It goes way back into a small covered yard and then a large store behind that.

So does this mean the pub thing isn’t happening with Craft Union??

I think it would be a challenge to include a theatre on the Waters site, but perhaps the ballroom across the road could provide a suitable for occasional dramas that don’t spill out onto Dartmouth Road.

The space I saw was the old Miss Moneypenny next to tattoo shop and opposite Coop. It was hard to look past all the mirrors (think it was a boutique fashion shop before) and imagine how it could be. I didn’t get to go in Waters so not sure how big it is. However, Miss Moneypenny is £15,000 a year and is probably a 1/4 of the size so as a new business I would need to start small and Waters would likely be way out of budget. Miss Moneypenny had an upstairs (I’m 5"3 and had to crouch to stand up up there so no chance for theatre above, I’d probably just live there (and at present only a rickety ladder to get up there so not suitable for customers). I popped into 2 Girls cafe in Peckham after to get some inspiration from their zero waste section and now wondering if a cafe and zero waste shop combined could be the way forward. Coffees are a higher value item so wouldn’t have to sell so many units to make it financially viable and it takes up only a little space. Also, slightly worried that it is a little further from the station so potentially not as much footfall. I will check out Zero Waste shop on Nunhead Lane and one in Elephant and Castle for more inspiration soon.

IMO - this would be wonderful!

Completely agree. Add baked bread and you’re onto a winner

Oh and I don’t think the location is out the way I along with many others walk past daily on commute home/ nursery pick up and drop off. I think key would be opening hours that extend for a commuter coffee in morning and pick up things on way home.

There are other unused units too- no idea its status but the unit opposite(ish) St. Davids (the one with a Walrus painted on it!) has been empty for years…

Think this would be really successful if things fall into place for you. Good luck! Although I do fully think the market for what you are intending is best in FH I’m sure it would be successful in other nearby areas should there be nothing appropriate/affordable in FH. Literally have no idea about costs of things but imagine it’s a difficult one of balancing up passing trade/location and cost/size of premises. Just hope you get something up and running in FH or elsewhere as everywhere needs more environmentally focussed shops (and community arts spaces if you can squidge one in lol). Good luck!!!

Class!

Wasn’t the one with the Walrus on it a Blue Mountain Coffee Shop? I think it didn’t work because there wasn’t enough footfall going past. A dodgy road to cross too.

Oh wow, just read that Sugar Mountain is to become a zero waste greengrocer, Rhia - does this scupper your plans? Look over at the Sugar Mountain Is Closing thread…

That’s fantastic news! Mmmh, yes would scupper my plans but just happy that we’ll have one. It could allow me to focus on theatre and vegan cafe so…win win x

Lovely attitude Rhia!
You are absolutely the right type of person that Forest Hill’s been crying out for.
I wish I had another place for you.

sounds like a great idea but 15k rent for a tiny shop like Miss Moneypenny seems excessive.
What about the old Santander on London road? if you want a vegan cafe that’d be a great site on the corner of Havelock walk and next door virtually to Canvas and cream but offering something that doesn’t compete with them

Barclays?

Really pleased to hear that you are looking to open a vegan cafe and theatre and it’s great that FH is getting a zero waste market. I can’t wait to support small business’ like yours that are paving the way for a sustainable future!

What even is the variation !

Advert fro Pub Manager

"…You will receive 18% of the weekly turnover to pay yourself and your staff - be rewarded as a true reflection of your work ethic. What’s more you will also have a place to call ‘home’ with our pubs including private accommodation. You will require a £500 bond, to begin your business as a self-employed pub manager…"

I had no idea that pubs worked like this.

Yeah me neither - fascinating. £500 bond is interesting too.

Hello everyone,

I am new to the forum. I have lived in Forest Hill for two years now and am very keen to see Dartmouth Road reach its full potential.

Finding a tennant for the hill is of course key to this but I have found out a few things about the Craft Union Pub Company which make me think they will do anything but improve the area.

Craft Union Pub Company/Enterprise Inns are actually Ei Group PLC. (https://www.eigroupplc.com/en/index.html). It is worth reading their Wikipedia entry - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ei_Group. I won’t witter on here, but they appear to be a property company that deals in public houses and tenancies. In the short term (and from looking at google reviews) this could very easily mean the landlord/staff being treated unfairly, a badly run pub by people who have little experience etc etc. In the long term I suppose it means that Ei Group PLC would sell it at the right time to the best buyer regardless of what is best for the community.

I don’t want to appear pessimistic, but as local people I think it is important to be aware of what is really happening in the area. At a time when craft beer, real ale and local brewers are booming, it seems such a shame that the way in which pubs are run is so often the obstacle in creating the right environment.

I seem to be attracted to people who own or run pubs. Several friends are publicans both in and out of London. I hear a lot of their stories, particularly some who have found it impossible to keep afloat with current trading conditions, ties to pubcos or breweries, or even simple seasonality. I wouldn’t want to do it. Though the one’s the seem to do better are also the ones which own their pub outright.

Their financial model, as described in the job is an interesting one. I forwarded it to a friend who is just giving up his pub outside London and he is likely to check this out. He’s a canny sort with almost two decades of experience in running and management pubs. I’d certainly trust his view on this venture and if he is happy to share, I’ll report back.

I’m not ready to discount the Craft Union Pub Company yet, despite being part of the UK’s largest PubCo. I gather their ethos is focused on drinking and sometime sports. Food isn’t generally available. I feel Forest Hill could really benefit from another proper boozer. Sure, the Bird in Hand fills this space but there is nought wrong with some competition on Dartmouth Road.

I know very little though about Craft Union pubs. One the nearest examples is the Lewisham Tavern on Lee High Road. I don’t know it. Does anyone? That might be a good example of what we could expect locally.

I miss the Hill. It was a strange mix of food, booze and interior design. But we loved the “secret garden.” I’d be much happier to see a new company give it a go, rather than walk past the metal boarding each Saturday. And franky, the Hill would’ve been better without food. We have lovely pub and food offerings already!

Of course this is also an alternative. A community-owned venture.

https://pubs.camra.org.uk/viewnode.php?id=64681

My understanding is that Enterprise own the freehold for this pub and for the Dartmouth Arms and probably for The Signal as well (run by Hippo Inns an Ei portfolio company)
If you want to know what the impact of Enterprise is on managing a pub, it may be worth looking at The Signal, even if it is another part of the portfolio - with different management.

In my view The Hill is too big to just be a boozer. It has a kitchen and is more suitable for drinking and dinning than an old post office in a modern block across the road. But it is a building with numerous challenges in the layout and I think the owner is more interested in making money from the space above the pub. There is more quick money to be made from residential property than running a pub and my worry is that the pub will not reopen until the upstairs has been developed - but I could be wrong.

I recall chatting with you about planning permission. I recall there is an issue about the accommodation as it is now or could be. But personally I don’t see an issue with its size. And a Craft Union pub doesn’t always exclude food. Frankly, I’d love a bowl of chips while watching England slaughter Wales. I don’t need a slow-cooked pork belly with a compression of beet root, heritage potatoes and micro herbs.

But if as you suggest EI own the freehold, then any discussion on this matter is likely moot. Had no idea that the Signal was in the Ei portfolio. I like the Signal. For food, drink and entertainment events.

I seem to remember reading somewhere that, although the intention was, or is, for The Hill to operate as a sports bar, some food such as pizzas, burgers etc - food deemed approprate for a sports bar- would be served.

Re the licensing notice for The Hill above, any concerns or objections such as hours etc can be made to licensing@lewisham.gov.uk by 7 March.

One thing I don’t get is they don’t actually say what the licensing terms applied for are. Does anyone know what they are ?

I can’t imagine it being a sports bar

So would I but it didn’t quite go to plan this year

https://www.lewisham.gov.uk/myservices/business/licences-and-street-trading/alcohol-and-entertainment-licences/Documents/CurrentApplications.pdf

Full Variation Particulars of Application Applied for:

To permit alterations and to amend the plan that attaches to the premises licence in accordance with the plan submitted to the Licensing Authority. The proposed alterations consist of the following: It is intended to relocate the bar server on the ground floor and to remove the raised area at the rear. There are also certain changes to the back of house area (in line with plan ref: 1725.10 dated 4/1/2019)

Currently Licensed:

Sale by retail of alcohol for consumption on and off the premises

09.00 – 00.00 Monday

09.00 – 00.00 Tuesda

09.00 – 00.00 Wednesday

09.00 – 01.00 Thursday

09.00 – 01.00 Friday

09.00 – 01.00 Saturday

10.00 – 00.00 Sunday

Provision of late night refreshment

23.00 – 00.30 Monday

23.00 – 00.30 Tuesday

23.00 – 00.30 Wednesday

23.00 – 01.30 Thursday

23.00 – 01.30 Friday

23.00 – 01.30 Saturday

22.30 – 00.30 Sunday

Live music

09.00 – 23.30 Monday

09.00 – 23.30 Tuesday

09.00 – 23.30 Wednesday

09.00 – 00.30 Thursday

09.00 – 00.30 Friday

09.00 – 00.30 Saturday

10.00 – 23.00 Sunday

Other Regulated Entertainment

09.00 – 00.00 Monday

09.00 – 00.00 Tuesday

09.00 – 00.00 Wednesday

09.00 – 01.00 Thursday

09.00 – 01.00 Friday

09.00 – 01.00 Saturday

10.00 – 00.00 Sunday

Woikd be great to see live music there, assuming that would be downstairs

I think the hours etc are what were already approved - I assume they were the same when it was The Hill - it says the alterations are just changes to the layout inside “It is intended to relocate the bar server on the ground floor and to remove the raised area at the rear. There are also certain changes to the back of house area.”

Spoke to a bloke from what looked like a beer company who was going into the Hill today. Apparently it’s due to reopen at the end of April. Kitchen is being ditched, and it’ll sell lots of craft beers. He reckoned the fit out spec would be pretty nice. Sorry if all this is old info

Apparently it is opening as a sports bar. The company who are going to be running it recently refurbished a pub in Penge. Has anyone heard anything of this?

Continues: The Hill