Clean air for SE23 group

Who wants to improve air quality in SE23?

There are many ways to improve the air around the A205, and beyond. Creating green spaces, planting hedges & trees along our roads, and managing traffic will really improve where we live. So let’s put the Forest back into Forest Hill!

There is already Council and Mayor of London money available to do this. Forming a lobby group will help our community direct the resources to where we want them.

We can make SE23 a safer, healthier, greener & lovelier place to be.

If you want to start a group and get involved reply here.

Alice

Count me in Alice. More trees needed in SE23 for sure (especially along the South Circular).

Count me in too.

The main cause of “bad” air is by the FH A205 junction. See below 2003 air quality map illustrating nitrogen dioxide levels:

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(Particulates and other emission-related compounds are not accounted for, but would likely provide a similar result.)

To make the biggest improvement to the air quality in forest hill would be to improve clockwise traffic flow through the junction, i.e. up the hill. The layout of the junction and nearby bus stops reduce the flow of traffic, thus there are multiple hill starts for vehicles attempting to pass through the junction thereby increasing pollution. The queues are bad enough to encourage short-cuts through residential streets that increase pollution in redisdential areas.

It’s TFL controlled so the borough is responsible for neither its design nor upkeep.

Interested in supporting the cause to improve air quality in our area. How ironic that just above this thread there’s a discussion re the selling and subsequent fencing-off of previously open green space which is home to several well-established trees at the bottom of duncombe hill. We need to protect our existing trees in addition to planting more new trees, especially along out busiest roads!

There is quite a bit of discussion about this going on, although perhaps more focused on noise than air:

Great to hear so much support for this. I’m going to see how many people respond by next week and set up a pub meeting to discuss the issues and solutions. We’ll need people who can help with social media, PR and fundraising, as well as horticultural experts and designers and also general enthusiasts for the cause. Tell your friends and post it to other groups if you can.

Alice

This the key issue - preventing or discouraging commuter traffic going through residential streets every day.

I live in Drakes Court on Devonshire Road. We are fortunate to have a large amount of communual space, which is sadly completely under utilised and it has no care, time or money spent on it. I have been asking Lewisham Homes to help me do something about it with no joy at all. Would love something to happen to it.

count me in

Hi Alice (and others).

Just to let you know about a couple of existing schemes:

Clean air. A group has recently started meeting at Crofton Park library, including an ‘action group’ on addressing pollution and air quality. We’re in touch, and helping campaign with, Catford resident Rosamund Kissi-Debrah, whose daughter Ella tragically died of asthma. At the moment the group is focusing on Crofton Park and Brockley, but it makes complete sense for any local campaign groups to be aware of each other, not least so we can coordinate action days, campaign materials etc etc. We aim to have a dedicated website up and running soon, but in the meantime, although I don’t use Facebook personally, I think you can contact the coordinator, Zaria, via an ‘event’ here: https://www.facebook.com/events/337183700342608/ .

Street Trees: Street Trees for Living work with Lewisham Council to organise the planting of new street trees, and the maintenance of existing ones. We’re always looking for new people to get involved. NB: Although we originally started in Brockley, the initiative now covers most of the Borough of Lewisham.

Hope you find these helpful, and good luck!

Hi Ricky,

That’s fantastic to know that there is already a group set up. Are you interested in expanding and covering forest hill as well? I’ll get in touch with Zara and perhaps we could start a forest hill/ catford branch of the same group? It makes sense for catford and forest hill to link together as we have the same mega problem of the 205.

I think forest hillites should meet up and see where we fit into this picture. Meeting up in person makes discussion so much easier (I’m pretty rubbish at social media).

Alice

Thanks to everyone who responded. I’m on a bit of a fact finding mission this week and will get back to you to arrange a meeting soon.

The council money that is available is for “regreening” the Lewisham borough rather than prevention methods or re-routing traffic. Whilst the prevention side is very important and perhaps there are other funds available for that, I’m interested in focusing on capturing emissions at source so that it solves problems for everyone, including those living along the most polluted roads.

I’ve contacted Zahira and Street Trees for Living -do you run this Ricky?

Watch this space.
Alice

Hi Alice. No, I don’t run either of the groups: just a participant. If you’ve made contact with STfL I’m sure they’ll respond directly. Re the Crofton Park group: I checked and they do have a Facebook page - just not a public-facing one (ie one that non Facebook users can access). It’s called ‘Lewisham Protect Our Future’. I’ll contact them and ask them to change this status so that folks like me can still keep up with what’s happening, but as I mentioned we are aiming to launch a simple website in the near future. But I’m sure Zaria or Jo (the other organiser) will get back to you.

Re roads and traffic: another group to know about is Brockley Better Streets. Although they are small, and only focusing on the Brockley Conservation area, I’m sure they could give some good pointers to useful resources.

Keep in touch

Richard

Please can you elaborate on this? I don’t understand what “capturing emissions at source” means.

Hi Devonish Forester,

There’s evidence that hedges, green walls and even moss benches can reduce NO2 and particulates by 30-40%. If they are placed in the right place, at exhaust level and ideally between pedestrians and the road then that could stop 30-40% of emissions getting to our lungs.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-18873391

Also look up Rob Mackenzie in Birmingham university.

The ULEZ is expected to reduce emissions by 30% around the south circular as people change their cars/companies change fleets so together that is a massive amount.

Combined with the really important prevention work you talked about and perhaps incentives (grants/loans to get an electric car anyone?) It could all add up to make a massive difference.

The reason why I want to focus on regreening first is because that is what the money is available for in March.

I think it’s important to look into spending the money effectively Perhaps kings could do some studies on how effective different regreening measures are.

Then we can campaign to get some hedges/green walls along the places in forest hill which are crunch points for pollution and other groups can campaign to get it in their area.

Think how nice it will make our neighbourhoods look too!

It’s not going to be straightforward as the southcircular is managed by TfL so local councillors can’t influence them much which is why creating a pressure group is so important.

Look forward to discussing more.

Alice

A meeting has been arranged for Thursday 21st Feb

See: Clean Air for Forest Hill - Meeting

Can I start by applauding the work you are doing on this issue. I think it is an important issue and if there are sensible things that can be done to improve air quality I fully support them.

My one concern would be the inappropriate placing of green barriers to form a pollution trap. The places that suffer most from pollution are those with high volume of diesel vehicles, narrow roads, tall buildings and trees forming a roof to the street. I’m particularly thinking about the stretch of London Road (South Circular) opposite Sainsburys and in front of Kings Garth.

The trees and bushes that protect residents in Kings Garth create a zone that traps pollution exactly where pedestrians are using the road.

I know it might be even harder to achieve, but I would welcome solutions that move the polluted air away from well used pedestrian routes such as high streets. I’m imagining giant fans in the pavement but realise that this would be unlikely to be feasible. But it would be good to look at solutions beyond planting. And most importantly ensuring that any planting does not make pollution worse for pedestrians.

I think this sounds great, and something I would fully support.

I’ve no idea the key areas are, but my first thought would be around schools, primary to start off with, where it appears younger children are potentially more affected than adults. As children are in schools all day vs more temporary exposure eg waiting for a bus, walking down the road etc I would have thought this would have the most benefit also. (this is completely anecdotal).

I assume pavement space as well as views to the road for road crossing safety etc might be issues with fences, dependant on height.

Hi Michael,

I knew that tree canopies could enclose pollution but not the hedges -so that’s a really interesting point. I think that’s why it’s so important to get the interventions right and why they need to be evidence based. It would be great if you could join us either at the meeting on the 21st or when we form a group -locals who know about the environment at the end of their street will be invaluable.

My vision for having planters placed between the pedestrians and the road (ie outer edge of pavement) might in theory trap some of the pollutants before they swirl up into the bushes and trees? I think it would be worth getting experts on board to test set ups and give us guidelines- I’m a total novice so part of the groups mission would be to find out what really works. There are environmental engineers who specialise in doing this sort of thing so maybe part of the funding bid should go towards that?

All best

Alice

Hi Okar,

You’re right-There’s loads of issues to overcome-emergency vehicle access, pedestrian visibility and safety at cross roads and how to cut and maintain hedges.

However I think the planters can be low at exhaust height and they’d have to be set back from crossing points and bus stops and driveways so not placed in a chain the whole way down the road. But when you start looking you see there’s loads of potential places for them. Look at this snap of the high st next to costa-there are already planters there-they are just a bit crap. If they were planted with a full hedge and trailing ivy (and there were more of them) they would be much more effective.

Some smart design could overcome all these issues and it could be quite cheap.

Alice

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I agree with this, as pollution is particularly damaging to children’s developing lungs and has lots of negative knock-on effects (e.g. rising rates of asthma, which leads to less active children etc).
On the school run I often see cars with their engines idling outside playgrounds - presumably parents waiting for drop off or pick up and wanting their heating / air con on…it is horrible to walk past (particularly for young children who are right at exhaust height) and it must be terrible for the pollution in the area of the school. I wonder if there are there any ways to change this behaviour?

Regarding the ULEZ, whilst in general I applaud it, I have to admit that as someone who lives just outside the new ULEZ near the south circular, I am worried it will make pollution in my area worse.

They are maintained by volunteers from the Forest Hill Society and we have been slowly adding more and more plants to the high street - not specifically to tackle pollution but to make the place look nicer.

If they look ‘a bit crap’ that’s because it is winter but soon the daffodils will emerge and the plants are actively maintained from spring to autumn.

And you wouldn’t believe the bureaucratic nightmare of getting planters on the fences - which is why we eventually went for lots of planters. The Forest Hill Society has quite a bit of experience in greening the town centre but we always welcome more ideas and more volunteers to help make it all a little better.

Hi Daffodil,

I saw a police car with its engine idling on perry vale today and I asked him to turn the engine off! He looked a bit bemused but he did it! It’s mad that people do this outside schools and I think signs and education would really help. They have put some climbing plants up outside Dalmain School but they need to be lower down and nearer the road so we could campaign to fund this.

I’m want to find out more about about the effect of ULEZ too. Perhaps that is something we can ask Cllr Louise about this as she says the predictions indicate it will cut pollution on south circular as well (even though the zone doesn’t include it) as most traffic crosses the south circular into town and companies will be changing their fleets in advance of the legislation change. Let’s hope that is right, but we could campaign for monitoring of this effect.

To put he issue in context and alleviate some fears, when you look at the kings map, it looks like the pollution levels are much less in zone 3 than further into town, and we are lucky to have wide streets that are not usually over 3-4 storey, so it creates less of the problematic “urban canyons”, but there are still areas which are dangerous and we can still work to make the Air here as clean as possible. And it would be great to have an expert talk to us to find out how it actually affects our area.

Hope you can join the meeting on 21st Feb at st George’s church tomorrow talk to Louise.

All best

Alice

Oh I’m really sorry, I didn’t mean to be rude -they only “a bit crap” from a pollution absorbing point of view. And it’s great that volunteers are doing such good work to make the area nicer. I can imagine there’s lots of issues to overcome and it’s good to know there’s already a group working on this. Maybe we could work with the forest hill society on this? I’d really like to volunteer to help so will get in touch with them.

Alice

Unfortunately idling outside schools is just one if the many mad ways car drivers behave outside schools. Signs, newsletters, asking nicely does nothing which is why some schools in Southwark have started closing streets at drop-off times as discussed on the ED Forum:
Southwark school street closure scheme discussion
It’s great you asked the police driver to stop idling and he did it. I’d never dare ask someone outside a school to stop doing this or I’d get a load of abuse!

We recently got new trees planted in our street in conjunction with the very helpful Street Trees for Living. One of our street’s residents delivered leaflets asking if anyone would consider pledging some money towards new street trees.
We had lost a lot of trees on our road over the past five years (Council had removed them due to disease, being unsafe etc) and they had not been replaced. Quite a few residents came forward to pledge funding and with the pooled money and some funding from Perry Vale Assembly, Street Trees for Living were able to organise getting us 5 trees planted. Residents have to volunteer to water the young trees. We are really pleased!

Yes, I think the asking nicely rarely works and many schools now wash their hands of the parents and suggest you contact the council. It is understandable since if residents get verbal abuse and threats from asking parents to move while idling or parking over a driveway. The reaction to teachers or a patrol of kids would be similar as these people have a sense of entitlement. I don’t think closing streets for a short period of time will stop people driving their kids, they will arrive early or they will just drop them off on neighbouring streets.

I do agree with planting on main roads to reduce pollution but many of our schools are on residential roads and I think more emphasis should be put on removing the cars than putting in plants to remove the pollutants. Yes will work outside the school but what about when kids walk to school on the parts of these roads which are outside houses which in many case have no hedges just driveways.

I think it will not be long before only electric vehicles will be allowed in city areas
Planting hedges would just contain the pollution on the streets. Presumably drivers and passengers would then breathe more polluted air.

Some pollution can be “trapped” close to pedestrians by plants/trees, but greening up streets scrubs harmful gases from the air too (see page below), so overall probably beneficial?

Electric cars (and modern, efficiently-allocated public transport using hybrids/EVs - like Uber, for example) are the answer.

I’ve just switched to an electric car. It’s a game changer for driving pleasure, too. I’m delighted with it.

Hi everyone,

I’ve been in touch with an expert from the University of Birmingham who has been working with TFL on regreening. Some detailed guidelines are going to be published in a couple of weeks so I will share them here but in the meantime this is the factsheet they have produced:

http://epapers.bham.ac.uk/3069/1/Ferranti_etal_2019_FirstStepsAQ.pdf

Alice

Hi Chris,

Might you be able to write more about how you go about moving to electric-getting a charging point etc? And the cost benefit?

I’d love to change to an electric car (recently changed from horrible diesel to petrol with an eco boost feature which prevents idling, but we couldn’t afford electric). However, given the savings I could have made running an electric car, if I had got a loan it would probably be more cost effective in the long term.

I’m trying to encourage the local sainsburys to trial affordable loans for electric cars-imagine, people could charge them at the Sydenham sainsburys whilst doing their shopping which would improve bell green’s air.

Can anyone make it to the assembly meeting on 21st?

Alice

Hi @Hedgeways,

Sure, happy to help (although it’s early days as I’ve only had the car for a week).

SE23.life has a number of existing topics discussing electric cars:

• Practicality of electric cars in SE23?
• Contacting Lewisham Council to request electric vehicle charging points?
• On the subject of 'noise', Hovis are now using 100% electric lorries to deliver to Sainsbury's in FH

And in our opt-in Geeks category:

• How good/affordable have electric cars got?
• E-car vs ICE car emissions
• Every new home, office and street light to have charging point for electric cars
• Tesla Flips the Switch on the Gigafactory

As I get more experience with my car I’ll add a reply to the above topics.

It was great to hear Cllr Louise Krupski talk about the good things Lewisham Council are doing to make the air cleaner in the borough and to reduce CO2 emissions.

The ULEZ is expected to reduce NOX by 30% north of south circular and 26% south of it as businesses change their fleets and car owners change their diesels (which are rapidly loosing value) to electric or petrol.

In previous years, London surpassed its air quality target for the whole year by 6th Jan. This year it hasn’t been announced yet-so things are improving, but they are still bad.

Lewisham benefits from the High level research done by kings and has won awards for the steps it is taking. These include:
-Education of parents through kids about reducing idling and cycling/walking to school
-Working with the construction industry to reduce CO2.
-Partnerships with businesses in north London to reduce freight use and create clean air villages.
-Liveable Neighbourhood grants to improve cycling and walking networks.
-Starting to increase electric charging points on street from currently 10 to 16 this year to ultimate goal of there being a point within a 10 minute walk of every resident.

But there is more that can be done if the community get behind these schemes and start our own schemes.

You can sign up to the clean air pledge on the council website to do something positive today.

https://www.lewisham.gov.uk/myservices/environment/air-pollution/Pages/Sign-our-clean-air-pledge.aspx

I noticed this on the weekend too. I was in Kent looking toward London, and the yellow haze was shocking:

https://twitter.com/johnpwentworth/status/1099626380290154496?s=21

Hi Michael,

Evidence from Birmingham university has calculated that hedges actually absorb Co2 and the NOX and small

Particles are deposited on their leaves and washed off by rainwater (becoming harmless) so they trap pollution in a good way. The best thing you can do to reduce pollution in your home is to plant a hedge outside.

Hedges in regreening schemes would be low so wouldn’t have the trapping effect of tree canopies which can overhang.

There are guidelines soon to be published about this.

All best

Alice

https://m.facebook.com/events/629589284164794/

Further info on the Climate Emergency Declaration at Lewisham Council-sounds scary but it’s a really positive step. It’s starts at 7.30, not 8.30 as previously posted (but the issue is expected to be heard around 8.30).

Presumably tree canopies trap pollutants too? But is this suggesting they restrict airflow and stop pollutants being ‘blown away’?

I would like to be involved. Was not aware of the last meeting but any future meetings would love to come along.

Hi Lee,

Yes there is evidence that some tree canopies which overhang can make NOX pollution worse because it traps the small particles which can’t fly up into atmosphere. But they absorb lots of CO2 so are excellent for combating climate change -don’t chop ‘em down! Some trees like field

Maple and silver birch are better at filtering not trapping pollutants.

If trees were combined with hedges the hedges could filter the pollution first before it has a chance to trap pollution.

If there are no trees on your road, hedges might be better at trapping NOX (but less effective at CO2) so I think the trick is to get both working.

I want to get some research done on this with Kings and I’m finding out if Street Trees for Living have already done some so watch this space.

Alice

Hi Mary, that’s great.

Next meeting should be 10am sat 9th March so please save the date Everyone. Hoping the library can host us TBC.

The issues is so current:there’s coverage in Time Out today

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Thanks @Hedgeways thats really interesting!
Back in the mists of time one of my undergraduate projects was about the street canyon effect and pollutant concentrations, we were looking at PM10 and PM2.5 as well as NOX if memory serves. I should see if I still have the results anywhere! Are there any pollution monitoring stations anywhere in forest hill?

Ooh how exciting! Please come to the meeting on 9th March to tell us more about it if you can.

I’m just a concerned Mum who’s been googling and emailing people-not an expert or scientist. Would be great to have you on board.

There are lots of “diffusion tubes” across London which feed live info into kings map so yes there are ones somewhere in forest hill-not sure what they look like. There is a monitoring station in new cross and we are soon to get one in honor oak which will do lots of research extra research.

Meeting arranged for 9th March:

See: Clean Air for SE23: First group meeting

It seems futile to make driving easier at the cost of public transport. More cars does not equal less pollution. Every bus that stops there seems to disgorge upwards of 10 people, I would imagine that equates to a significant number of cars off the road.

Surely a better approach is what support do people need to get out of their cars and onto those buses?

What would support you to leave your car behind and get on the bus?

Hi Mjohnstone, that was not what I was suggesting. It is not the fact that there are nearby bus stops, but rather the arrangement of the nearby bus stops and the junction that is the issue.

Glad you asked - a better bus service. The bus service for Forest Hill is noticeably poorer than elsewhere I have lived in London, despite the good road links. It is not the frequency of busses, but the routes they take. Very often the suggested public transport route to get to a destination in South London is via London Bridge rail station.

Everyone loves an example, so take Forest Hill station to Clapham South station. Leaving now, City Mapper suggests:

• Train takes 41 minutes (FH > Canada Water > Lon Bridge > Clapham South)
• Bus takes 60 minutes (122 > 149)
• Uber takes 24 minutes (5 minute wait the 17 minute journey)
• Driving takes 17 minutes
• Cycling takes 35 minutes (I could smash it in 25, no problem)

Hi Marler Fox,

If you haven’t seen the other posts already please email me to join a mailing list and find out more about the group

Alice.tateharte@gmail.com

Thanks

Alice

New recommendations on improving air pollution make the news today:

Also, Lewisham Council Voted to pass the climate emergency declaration last week which is very good news. It will help prioritise Clean Air and green issues.

Alice

I think banning cars near schools would be very difficult. Many of them are driven by parents taking their children to school.

I think that is the point, children would get the health benefits of walking to school and the people living beside the school and the kids inside the school would breathe less polluted air. As a parent I wouldn’t object.

https://cleanair.london/solutions/10-steps-for-clean-air-in-london/

This is a useful step guide for what sort of action you can take.

Plausible. When lead was removed from petrol, there appeared to be a strong correlation with reduced violent crime levels:

Without hoping to go too far off topic, there’s an interesting (but not particularly unbiased) article on the sad history of adding lead to petrol, and whether the side-effects were initially known or not:

A particularly interesting pair of paragraphs:

Ethyl alcohol had much the same effect and wouldn’t mess with your head, unless you drank it. Midgley knew this, having combined petrol with practically every imaginable substance, from iodine to camphor to melted butter.

Why did the petrol companies push tetraethyl lead instead of ethyl alcohol? Researchers who have studied the decision remain puzzled. Cynics might point out that any old farmer could distil ethyl alcohol from grain. It couldn’t be patented, or its distribution profitably controlled. Tetraethyl lead could.

The same leaded petrol guy also went on to discover chlorofluorocarbons…

Correlations are not causes!!! Lots of bad science around, also simplistic populist interpretations of good science.

The Beeb make a nice history story, but actually I think the paper which the BBC article links to in pretty clear with respect to what it claims (here) - graphs in the appendix mirror that of the @anon5422159 post.

The first sentence of the conclusion in that paper is clear that it finds a relationship in the data, not cause or mechanism of effect:

This paper shows a significant and robust relationship between lead exposure in childhood and violent crime rates later in life.

Other influences are considered too, and to bring things right back to topic, how about this quote from the paper:

Thus, two major acts of government, the Clean Air Act and Roe v. Wade, neither intended to have any effect on crime, may have been the largest factors affecting violent crime trends at the turn of century.

[emphasis mine ]

Our next meetin date will be on 4th April. Details tbc.Please save the date and email me for more details:

Alice.tateharte@gmail.com

Sounds like lots more research is needed to determine that link. But the link to other issues like asthma, heart disease, cancer, dementia are much clearer.

I attended the Clean Air for SE23 meeting yesterday - thank you Alice for organising, it was very interesting and informative.

Lewisham have a bike loan scheme where you can borrow a bicycle for one month, including gear such as helmet, lock, lights, hi-vis jacket. It doesn’t cost anything, but there is a £10 membership fee to the London Cycling Campaign - mainly to cover insurance.

I’m just coming to the end of my loan and have really enjoyed using the bike.You can also get a free cycling lesson which was brilliant at boosting my confidence on the roads.

I thought I would publicise it here as it appears to be a little known scheme which would be a great boost to those thinking of getting a bicycle.

That’s a gteat idea for starting. I am wondering whether it is worth getting a bike, would I use it enough. Good way to test the theory. Thanks for sharjng. I will look into it.

Air filter mask?

We’ve just created a facebook page for Clean Air for SE23. It’s a closed group at the moment, but do ask to join if interested!

https://www.facebook.com/groups/cleanairSE23/

You’ll get the bus when bus speeds are comparable to cars?

I can think of lots of ways to do that, but they all seem like they would be unpopular, time consuming, and expensive: more bus lanes, giving buses right of way, making routes buses only and diverting cars, reducing bus stops per bus (obviously increasing bus frequency / routes so that people can still catch them).

I’m all for those ideas but I’m also cycling and accepting I need to sacrifice time and personal comfort for a more important issue, air quality.

Do you have any other ways of making bus times comparable to car times?

Yes, but that question doesn’t in any way summarise the point I made in my post. It is not that local busses do not drive fast enough, but that their routes are undesirable [for me], which makes them a poor choice.

Interesting audit of air quality around Haseltine School:

Also research is needed into the the causes of air pollution:

“Ammonia plays a major role in creating particulate matter, one of the biggest threats to people’s health from air pollution, with emissions from farms harming the health of people hundreds of miles away.”