I thought I’d start a thread on this as it won’t be too much longer until the works start on D Rd.
As far as I’m aware the basement surveys have now been done @Anotherjohn’s have been.
@Michael can you check to make sure these are the latest plans please 
Thanks @Pauline, my wife and I were just commenting
last night that we hadn’t heard much about this recently - glad to see that things are still moving on.
Has any one given any indication as to when it all might be complete? I’m looking forward to walking my son to nursery each morning along a nice and shiny new Dartmouth Road 
As far as I know @armadillo the works are due to be complete by the end of 2017 with works starting early 2017. When I get any updates I will post them
I understood that work would be starting towards the end of this year with completion before April 2017. Previously, it was supposed to have been completed before April 2016.
Does our local Councillor use this forum?
@MajaHilton is on here & I’ll ask Paul to contribute too to keep us up to date on this Mr @Anotherjohn
Is this still happening ? I saw the proposals - but nothing since…
Yes, I think all the preparations are going on at the moment before the works start!
When I posted the first post they were doing the surveys on the basements & just last week gone they were checking where all the cables were for gas & electric supplies on D Rd.
When I asked what they were doing along the Road a bit further up from my shop they told me they were checking these before major works begin soon on D Rd so as not to damage any.
wow awesome ! => any idea when they’ll start ?
I’m not sure exactly when, they just said soon & apparently it has to be finished by the end of April next year.
Hey Jonah, hope you guys are enjoying the weekend
Planning permission is required for the improvements on the wide pavement outside Heron House & the Job Centre because Lewisham Council don’t own that section of the pavement HH & the JC own it.
As far as I’m aware planning permission isn’t required for the rest of the improvements on D Rd as where the rest of the works are being done is owned by LC @Michael @Anotherjohn @CllrPaulUpex or @MajaHilton can someone confirm that I’m right in thinking this please
Thanks for sharing this James.
Usual Sunday morning chaos on Dartmouth Road again today. We had to drive along the pavement just past the Sylvan Post because if we didn’t move, nothing on the other side was going to be able to move either. Completely boxed in by parked cars and what I call Busmageddon, where two buses try to pass on what is effectively a single track road.
Bring on the works, I say.
Couldn’t agree more, every week the same thing, it does nothing for the shops on Dartmouth road, or the residents trying to navigate their way down the road. It is bad enough weekdays with the odd stray car parking where they shouldn’t, but on Sundays it is just a mad free-for-all that caused chaos.
I think today was also exasperated by traffic passing through the area trying to avoid the temporary traffic lights and giant crane in Sydenham, but even without these additional cars it is generally dreadful.
We were indeed avoiding Sydenham. Think it would have been quicker, crane and all.
I don’t think it’s helped by vans parking and unloading outside the florist, Boots and those nearby shops because it makes it impossible for buses to get round them. I too have been forced to drive onto the pavement outside the underwear shop just so the bus can get round a car or van parked on the other side.
I’ve said time and time again (and Laurels agree) we need loading bays outside Paddy Power NOT outside the florist!
You are right Pauline, and traffic jams are not going to help the local businesses.
As soon as @Anotherjohn mentioned this solution to me it was a lightbulb moment for me!
It’s the perfect solution but no one seems to want to listen to us!
We are both on D Rd day in & day out so see everything & both of us are nosy too, hope you don’t mind me saying that boss but it’s true 
I’ve checked with Laurel’s are they are more than happy with this & so are all other traders I am aware of.
Having a parking bay/bays on the wide pavement outside Paddy Power & leaving the other side of the Road/Pavement free to let the traffic flow seems to be the best solution
Makes a whole lot of sense to me
I remember this begin debated at length on other local forums. It’s such a sensible idea I thought it had gone through to the plans after the consultation. Yes there would be a loss of some social space outside the Sylvan Post, but there’s little difference between sitting beside parked cars and traffic queuing for the lights.
So they are putting a bay outside Laurels? Will we all have to shimmy along sideways? I assume it must leave enough room for wheelchair users and buggies, but only the bare minimum, and assuming there is NOTHING else on that stretch of pavement.
As far as I know that’s still the plan to have the bay outside Laurel’s.
The pavement space outside the shop where the display is belongs to the shop & not LC so I don’t think there will be a lot of pavement space there at all!
It’s started!
I’ve just asked what’s going on & been told the work being done is the start of the D Rd improvements.
Been told the work on the pavement outside the pools is the electrics being upgraded.
The crane in the background is apparently for repairing the lead on the roof at the pools that was hanging off - there was another thread about this a while back.
Good to hear that the works have begun!
Thought Id add the link @Pauline referred to above:
I find it really hard to understand why that whole narrow section of Dartmouth Road is not double yellows. I was there yesterday and people just seem to randomly park on the single yellow section to pop into the shops, causing unnecessary traffic jams. I am sure they wouldn’t do this if it was double yellows and traffic cameras. There are plenty of 30 minute parking bays further along where the road is wider, there’s no need to park on that narrow section.
Hear, hear Daffodil!
I said a similar thing at the consultation stage 18 months ago -
‘… and my solution (breaking a few eggs!) would be to insert camera-enforced double red lines (as it is affects the movement of buses and traffic on Tfl’s junction on the Sth Circ) and very strong bollards all the way through the bottle-neck right out to the kerb line to protect pedestrians. This would unfortunately prevent loading and unloading for the traders along that part of the road so, to compensate for this, there would have to be a re-jigging of the wider pedestrian areas extending from the bottom of Derby Hill to the betting office to provide some strictly enforced loading bays.’
Unfortunately, the Highways Department have chosen not to do anything about the inconvenience suffered by hundreds of motorists and bus passengers who are suffering unnecessary delays travelling through this part of Forest Hill every day.
Hear Hear boss!
You have done nothing but give sensible suggestions & nothing has been listened too!
You know D Rd like the back of your hand & know what would work!
Shame no one is listening cause what you say is RIGHT!!
The nail bar owner parks there most days. He doesn’t care.
As someone who used to live in that narrow section (above the convenience store that used to be Doopo Doopo), this really does need sorting. There is NO reason for anyone to be parking there, day or night, and the ‘if you can’t park directly outside my shop I’ll go bust’ attitude of a number of people on that parade hasn’t helped.
Maybe I should try and have a polite word
Pauline, I don’t think it’s a good idea for you to get involved. This is a matter for Lewisham Council and their parking management people - and possibly even the police where obstructions on the pavement and to the free movement of public transport are concerned.
Problem is @Anotherjohn the people you mentioned are just not around. I watched one of the scooter parking guys ignore the cars parked on Tue pavements and on double yellow and look at cars in dedicated parking bays, as they are paid to. The only enforce parking bays. The police have bigger issues to deal with and the council. Well, cuts all round.
I understand Londondrz - and you’re absolutely right. I was just trying to stop our titchy little local dynamo from getting into a spot of bother.
I was just going to have a polite word when I bump into him
I understand AJ, I wouldn’t mess with her though. I have learnt over the years that the smallest dog has the biggest bite
Now you’ve got me thinking Mr!
Maybe someone can get me one of these puppies for my birthday & we could terrorise D Rd on Halloween #DoubleTrouble 
Feels like they’ve been playing about with the timings of the traffic light at the end of Dartmouth road onto the junction to the South Circular. I was watching it this morning, after marvelling at the massive queue along Dartmouth Road, and it seemed like the phase was only about long enough for 2, maybe 3 cars to get out?
Maybe its just a sneaky way to encourage people to start using alternative routes and lessen the impact for when the works start proper?
I had to go down there at 8:15 am yesterday, luckily I was travelling to Kirkdale. The bus stop, plus inconsiderate parking has always made that a very slow road but it did seem much longer yesterday.
I’m glad you mentioned that armadillo. Does anyone know why they have changed the light phase? you can now only get about 4 cars through on a green light.
I think there was something more seriously wrong this morning. Traffic seemed to be snarled along the South Circ coming from Catford, and along Perry Vale heading to FH.
Was up past the library yesterday.
Sydenham was awful. Had to abandon the school run and resort to Shanks’ pony.
As much as I don’t want to say so as not to take business away from D Rd traders including myself.
The last week has been atrocious with traffic on D Rd.
So if anyone wants to visit the shops the best way is on foot.
Please make an effort as it has been a tad quiet
Oh except for the kids coming into me after School on foot
@Londondrz Your lovely daughter pops by to say hi every day. Doesn’t have sweets except on a Friday .
She’s a lovely girl and a real credit to you
Agree. Dartmouth Road has been a nightmare recently and the phasing is back down to 10 seconds on green. I reported it to TFL and Lewisham on Monday morning after a frustrating weekend. Last time the lights did this it was a camera sensor failure. I called again this morning and was told that they usually fix phasing issues remotely but this has been logged as an issue for engineers - so whatever is wrong requires a site visit. Tfl told me this would be escalated now as I’d told them traders were losing business and would be fixed today. Hope this helps.
Thanks Deano. BTW if you are who I think you are let me know next time you’re passing so I can verify you
Can anyone confirm what the plans for parking on Dartmouth Rd are ? I understood that it was being removed mostly as part of the refurb ( great IMHO ) ---- but am a bit confused after reading this thread.
Jonah I think the amount of parking spaces will be similar to what they are now.
Interestingly, just saw a couple of enforcement people out on Dartmouth Rd - it looked like they were ticketing cars parked on the pavement.
And so they bloody well should I think
A shame. I was hoping it would be less dominated by parking
The plans are just about complete and there are quite a few minor benefits in the new scheme.
Parking will not increase significantly (a little more opposite the swimming pool)
Loading bays will be available for businesses towards the north of Dartmouth Road
Pavements will be wider (not massively, but just a little bit)
Double-yellow all the way along to prevent obstructions to traffic
Two new bus stops (outside the pool on one side and outside Aga’s Deli on the other)
More small street trees
No parking outside Forest Lodge
improved streetscape outside Heron House and Sylvan Post
Scheme is currently over budget by about £200,000 over the £1.6m available
Works are likely to take 7-8 months, starting from February. During this time it is likely that a contraflow will be in place for a section of Dartmouth Road (that section will move through the year). This will ensure the road stays open to traffic through the whole process.
Question: When you say Two new bus stops PLEASE tell me you mean these are replacing existing bus stops - ie it is movement of existing bus stops rather than creation of two new ones?
I’d say the ridiculously excessive number of bus stops in London is one of my biggest gripes. We’re living in an obesity epidemic apparently but yet they think it’s a good idea to have bus stops every 100m so people don’t have to walk. If I was London Mayor first thing I would do is implement a minimum distance of 400m between bus stops (which in practice means you never have to walk more than 200m to reach one). Would instantly ease traffic congestion and cut bus journey times in half.
You are obviously young and fit and do not have to carry around heavy shopping bags and young children.
@anon17648011 they will be additional stops.
There is a long distance between the 122 stops by the station and the next on Dartmouth Road, effectively bypassing the entire town centre!
Bus stops should be close together in town centres and slightly more disparate beyond that. The 122 and 176 bus stops are further apart than recommended by TfL.
It doesn’t mean that at all. If I live, as I do, about 400 m from my nearest bus stop how does making the bus stops further apart mean that I only have to walk 200 m to reach one. In fact I would have to walk maybe 600 m if that bus stop was removed to fall in line with your edict. You might be correct to say that I would on average have to walk 200 m more…
It also wouldn’t cut bus journey times in half. It may reduce journey times a bit but not cut them in half. It would reduce the amount of time the bus was stopped by half (although even that is not true as more people would likely get on per stop) but as a bus journey is the sum of stopping and travelling time it really isn’t likely that you could half bus journey times. You would have to assume that the bus travels much quicker between stops as well but it would have to really shift to get anywhere near.
Assume a 20 min journey with a generous 10 mins stop time as part of it. Let’s half the stop time so that makes 10 mins driving and 5 mins stop time - still 15 mins and that’s assuming that halving the number of stops would half the stop time which it wouldn’t as the same amount of people still need to get on so in reality stop time would be more like 6 or 7 mins… So 16 or 17 mins - maybe. Of course this is simplistic but still indicative.
So would this reduce congestion? Still the same amount of buses on the road just stopping less frequently but for longer? You would have to assume that buses are the cause of congestion rather than the much more numerous cars, vans, lorries, taxis and other vehicles. Of course in some places bus stops do stop traffic and cause congestion but mostly they are stuck in traffic (or maybe in bus lanes) with the rest of us. I don’t think it would make a huge difference really.
Reducing car use, encouraging people to walk and cycle and providing an efficient cheap pubic transport network would be much better options and I don’t think making people walk further to get on a bus really adds that much.
Thanks for the update Michael.
Cheers Michael for this update. I really wanted to make the meeting on Monday but wasn’t able too.
Do we have any firm dates and schedule of what bits will be done when?
Having read this thread and the original proposal doc on the council website (which appears to be the only document available?!) I have a couple of questions:
Can anyone confirm this understanding?
(It’s worth noting that over the past few months the pavement on the West (Heron House / Sylvan Post) side of the road has been utterly destroyed by cars and buses driving up the curb onto the pavement to allow traffic to pass due to the parked cars on the opposite (East) side of the road - the changes cannot come soon enough)
The date the work is expect to start is around 1st March, but I’m awaiting official confirmation.
The road will be narrower and all the existing parking bays on the road will continue to be available (with a few extra opposite the swimming pool, and a few less opposite Holy Trinity school).
Slight narrowing of the road (or widening the pavement if you prefer) will make it a nice place to walk and shop. Double yellow lines will discourage unsociable and illegal parking, and traffic should generally move easier.
Thanks AGAIN Michael
I was wondering whether the works have started?
Nothing’s happening yet!
There is some work on Dartmouth Road outside Sydenham Girls with a set of temporary traffic lights though probably nothing to do with the improvement works. Perhaps, Lewisham is being sensible and not allowing the main work to start until this finishes as two sets of temporary traffic lights on Dartmouth Road might turn it into a car park.
The work outside the school is to enable wheelchair access at the bus stops and repave the surrounding footpath. A letter from the contractor said the work should be completed by the end of March and made no mention of if/how it is linked any other work.
D Rd improvements are from the library down to the traffic lights that link with London Rd & the South Circular.
So these works outside Sydenham Girls School are not related to the D Rd improvement scheme.
As the Dartmouth Road’s improvement works are due to be starting very soon - and as this will prevent car parking for the duration - I think it would be a good idea for the traders association and perhaps FHSoc to ask Lewisham council if we can have 2hrs free parking in Perry Vale car park to help mitigate the disturbance and losses to local traders.
I’m sure they’ll agree - but it will take until 2019 to change the ticket machine…
Brand new tech just out. A bag over the machine! Free parking.
It’ll have to be specced out, put out to tender, PFI options considered, planning permission - 2021 at best.
Doh, of course it would. £13-15,000 per plastic bag at least!
Spoke to the guys that are doing the D Rd improvements today!
The work starts on 1st May & will take 7 months - last 6 weeks of the works D Rd will be closed.
CLOSED??? For SIX WEEKS???
Just occurred to me: isn’t “road works” an oxymoron?
Yup, but I’m looking on the bright side 
I’ve always wanted to have a massive street party on D Rd & this could be my chance 
Interesting. If traffic is going to be closed off, could there be a street event? Back home in Canuckland loads of communities do annual sidewalk days when local retailers take their wares to the street. Outside shopping with festival style stuff.
Could be fun?
That’s exactly what I’m thinking - a Christmas festival for the reopening of the new Rd - and we have months to plan it 
ETA I’ll speak to our Cllrs to see if they can help me get permission, and if we get permission we could set up a group to organise the event 
We have had a leaflet through our door from a ‘group of local residents’ in the Thorpewood Avenue area. It expressed concern about two things.
The permanent loss of parking space in front of the Forest Lodge flats means that thirty cars will in future have to park elsewhere, probably on the streets on the other side of Dartmouth Road where there is already a lot of pressure on parking.
And ‘the bus stop opposite Thorpewood Avenue…will be moved to a narrow point by the two Delis [?} towards the bottom of Dartmouth Road near the traffic lights. This will cause a major disruption to the flow of traffic as it meets the South Circular and create a potential hazard to pedestrians negotiating their way across a traffic jam.’ I must say I hadn’t taken on board that the Thorpewood Avenue southbound stop was to be moved - I thought there was going to be an extra stop further north. (And what about the northbound Thorpewood Avenue stop?)
It is suggested that we share any concerns with our local councillors. A bit late for that?
Robin, as far as I know the bus stops being added are extra. So the one opposite Thorpewood will still be there.
From memory the area by the new bus stop will be widened.
Robin, I’d say the group of residents are from Dartmouth Road and are probably not looking forward to the council taking away the parking in front of their homes including Forest Lodge. I am surprised that they got it wrong about the bus stop as I was also under the impression that it was staying.
They say removing the parking will worsen congestion in Thorpewood Avenue, Derby Hill Crescent, Radlet Avenue, Round Hill, Featherstone Avenue and the top end of Kirkdale. I think all of these roads apart from 2 are full most of the day so not much will change.
They have reasonable concerns that with Dartmouth road being dug up, emergency services access via and onto Thorpewood Avenue to the 2 schools, library and swimming pool needs to kept free.
I agree with you about the councillors, it is a done deal but there is no harm in asking them about the safety concerns.
Robin could you please share this leaflet so that some can address any worries residents have that sent this leaflet & also as a couple of things on this may be wrong info (or not) on this leaflet.
Thanks
My information from the council officers is that no traffic plan have been submitted or agreed yet.
Party great, 6 weeks road closure erm… No.
Dear MajaHilton
While we have your ear on the Dartmouth Road Improvement Works may I ask if you would mind trying to promote this idea to the relevant council department please - and thank you!
We should extend the party to the adjoining roads.
Bring back street football, I am happy to put my full size portable goal on the street in the evenings.
We would need to change some of the local streets to access only.
I took the liberty of running it through on OCR program… I had to manually correct a few errors - please let me know if I missed any.
DISRUPTION ON DARTMOUTH ROAD
Major work will shortly begin on planned improvements to Dartmouth Road. Inevitably there will be severe disruption for a prolonged period whilst they are carried out. At a cost of 1.8 million pounds we need to be confident that all the proposals will have a positive impact on our community.
Two features of the scheduled work are very worrying.
Parking loss:
The parking in front of Forest Lodge flats, which has always been used by Residents ,will be lost with a consequent displacement of nearly 30 cars into nearby Roads. Inevitably this will worsen congestion in Thorpewood Avenue, Derby Hill Crescent. Radlet Avenue, Round Hill, Featherstone Avenue and the top end of Kirkdale. There are obvious safety concerns given that there are two primary schools at either end of Thorpewood Avenue as well as the local library and swimming pool. The plan deprives the residents of Forest Lodge of their parking facility and has a negative outcome for the neighbourhood as a whole.
Relocation of bus-stop:
The bus stop opposite Thorpewood Avenue serving three frequent routes will be moved to a narrow point by the two Delis towards the bottom of Dartmouth Road near to the traffic lights. This will cause a major disruption to the flow of traffic as it meets the South Circular and create a potential hazard to pedestrians negotiating their way across a traffic jam.
If you feel you will be adversely affected by these plans please share your concerns urgently with your local councillors asking for changes that will avoid the problems and take-more careful account of the needs of our community.
Names and email contacts for the councillors:
Maja Hilton - maja.hilton@btinternet.co.uk
Peter Bernards – peter.bernards@aol.co.uk
Paul Upex - Paul_Upex@labour.org.uk
London Assembly member Len Duvall len.duvall@london.gov.uk
This leaflet reflects the concerns of a group of local residents. For further information, email:
David Whiting: davewhiting@hotmail.com or Jenny OShea: osheajenny838@googlemail.com Helen Shreeve: Helenshreeve@gmail.com
Oi!
What’s wrong with flinging a couple of jumpers down at each end?
I am hoping for sunny weather so nobody will be wearing jumpers
Maja, does that mean you will help me with going about getting permission for organising a big opening event for D Rd on the last day of closure, regardless how long D Rd will be closed for.
If it does, thank you, we have loads of time to plan something amazing & my brain is working overtime on ideas now
More than happy to take the lead on this if we can get permission
Sorry for going a bit off topic everyone, back to D Rd improvements & dates for the works
Pics or it didn’t happen! 
Great suggestions BTW! 
It was around 10ish years ago Chris, their garden was turned into an ice rink, sorry no pics on my iPad from that long ago but sure Julia @AllInnOne or @Michael can confirm this & they had reindeers there. I took my kids & it was amazing
Sorry - wasn’t being deliberately flippant - (“pics or it didn’t happen” is an internet meme for when you’re told something astonishing). I can see it happened in 2009. Brilliant stuff!
I’m rubbish when it comes to internet stuff
I can definitely confirm Chris that it is true we had a huge ice ring one year and the year after the real reindeers…will try and look for some pictures xJulia
I’d like an ice rink. As a Canadian I’m automatically better than you on anything with ice. Torvil & Dean, Robin Cousins and the 2006 Scottish women’s curling team were aberrations.
Canadians. We do snow. And trains. Proper trains. Proper snow.
I assume all these jolly amusing comments come from people to whom the partial or total closure of Dartmouth Road will cause no significant inconvenience.
I don’t think it will affect me at all
I think we all know it’s going to be grim. Everyone will be affected, not just those on adjoining roads. What’s wrong with trying to plan events that might mitigate some of the damage caused to trade during the closure?
Quite, make the best of a bad thing. Like the street party when the South Circular was closed for weeks because of the water main burst by Sainsburys.
I got in a mess trying to insert a link to a website.
My deleted post first asked sarcastically (in my usual manner) whether there was going to be a planning group for the events proposed for Dartmouth Road while it is closed, and, if so, who would be on it.
Then it went on to ask whether someone could give an authoritative reply to the question about whether bus stops are just to be moved or whether there are going to be new ones. The link which, after quite a lot of ferreting around, I found (and tried unsuccessfully to link to) suggested that at any rate the existing Thorpewood Avenue southbound stop would remain.
@robin.orton The easiest way is to right click on the link then copy and paste on here. If you look at the “FAQ” section" there is a good example. John
I’ve seen nothing to suggest the existing stop will be removed. The gap between stops is too big at present. The intension is to remedy this, not to replace one gap with another.
It doesn’t really make sense to make PV car park free for 2 hours when there already is a two hour car park closer to the shops on Dartmouth Road. But I would also expect that only some of the parking would be impacted at any time (at least until the last six weeks of complete closure).
I think a street party would be great and I love the positivity about making the best out of a bad situation. That’s the South London Spirit!
Hi Robin, yes the existing bus stop opposite Thorpewood will remain.
With regard to doing an event at this stage it’s just an idea. If we manage to get permission to do this I will set up a group to organise it & all would be more than welcome to be involved in the planning
The Sainsbury’s picnic was organised on Fb and was unofficial.
Thanks, John, That’s what I tried to do, but I think there was something odd about the link itself.
If you want to pm the link to me and I will try.
Thanks, but I don’t think it’s worth spending further time on this. I am
sure the problem was a one-off. Robin
I like the idea of an ice rink too maybe because my dad was third in figure skating in Serbia.
TBH it was only after his death that mum admitted it was not a family joke. It was one of his teenage I can do what I want things, that lasted a short time.
@anon5422159 can you set up a group for organising the D Rd event/party please that anyone can join to either give ideas and/or help with planning it & also to discuss going about getting permission etc
Done. Join this group to see the DR Festival category:
Quite a few people from Thorpewood & Derby Hill are quite worried about this due to the fact that they’re already inundated with parked cars, quite a few have told me they’ve written to Cllr’s about their concerns.
Am I right in thinking Forest Lodge has parking spaces to the rear of the building?
Hi @Pauline
There is a lot of concern and residents are writing to me about it. If you are concerned resident the best email to use is cllr_maja.hilton@lewisham.gov.uk
If you don’t have an email my official address is Civic Suite, Catford Road, SE6 4RU.
To my knowledge there is no parking at the other side. Certainly min of 20 cars would be displaced under the current scheme.
The land is Council-owned so Forest Lodge owners/residents have no rights over it. It doesn’t have drop kerbs along most of its length either, so the parking that has been taking place there has been on an informal basis. However I do sympathise with the people who currently park there, and those who live on streets which will receive the displaced parking.
That said though, my family and I walk past Forest Lodge along Dartmouth Road on a daily basis, and the parking there is problematic to say the least. There shouldn’t be vehicles manoeuvring around the rear of a pedestrian crossing. The crossing itself has suffered three of its four protective wooden bollards being destroyed by cars. Similarly there shouldn’t be cars parked and manoeuvring around a bus stop. But even taking these two particularly sensitive areas aside, it’s also fundamentally unsafe to have cars reversing out onto Dartmouth Road across the footway. Antisocial parking is a frequent problem too, with vehicles often partially and sometimes fully blocking the footway. All in all it makes it a pretty rubbish place to walk.
During the design development, parking bays between the footway and the carriageway (i.e. not involving vehicles crossing the pavement) were investigated by Lewisham Council and their consultants along the stretch of road from the bus stop to the crossing. I’m not sure why these haven’t made it into the final design, but I suspect that they failed the safety audit. In any case, they wouldn’t have matched the numbers of spaces lost, so the issue of displacement would have occurred anyway, albeit in lesser numbers.
Thanks @MajaHilton & @brencud for the replies both seem really helpful to me
One supposes that if parking in adjacent streets becomes a problem then the only solution will be CPZ?
In a bout of laziness, but also to avoid the sudden rain shower I caught a bus on Saturday from Kirkdale with the intention to get off by the Capitol. I was amazed at just how the traffic crawled when we hit the shops in Forest Hill. Furthermore, with the huge gap between the Dartmouth/Thornberry stop and the one by the station I had no hope of abandoning my red ship when I found the traffic came to a stand still. Thankfully my bus driver took pity and opened his doors, but that is not supposed to happen.
Any improvement on that is an improvement for all. So I’m sorry if a few cars may be displaced but for me moving people is the priority.
Dare I say this convo seems to have lost its direction a bit?
@anon64893700 is right and we need to do a little clear up here (splitting off one or two tangential conversations). Will tend to this tomorrow. Please shout now if you’d prefer we left this topic intact. We can always start a new topic for D Rd and close this one.
Will the road works actually help the way traffic slows down on Dartmouth Road at approximately the swimming pool on the way to London Road? I have to take the bus that way daily and it can add a long time to the journey – especially frustrating if you hope to get to the station but can’t get off, but also if you’re staying on the bus. If I understand the plans, the road will not be widened despite needing to be – have I got this right? In that case, I can’t see the point of the expense and disruption.
I’m by all means not an expert on these works. I understand though an extra bus stop is to be added between the station and Thornberry. So for those times there is congestion you’ll be able to easily get off and walk the rest of the wa.
The improvements are also about improving the pedestrian experience which hopefully will encourage more people to the shops.
Assuming parking controls are effective, the new road markings will mean that we don’t have the situation where buses can’t pass each other, and so there should be less congestion.
We can but try Brendan xx
Timetable for improvements work has now been made available and will be delivered to residents in the immediate vicinity.
Work begins on 2nd May 2017 and will be completed in March 2018. Full road closure for 6 weeks from 9th January.
No. That is a different project, that I hope might happen in 2019!
I’d say it is on their optional fix list along with permanently fixing the water leak.
Yes can see it very clearly zoomed on my iPhone.
It looks like no work is scheduled from 4th December to 8 Jan 2018 for Christmas moratorium.
What is also not in the letter is the contingency period for overrunning of 49.5 days.
Really good to keep the road open during the busiest shopping month.
How do we get stock delivered to our shops during the 6 week Road closure?
Sherpas.
The road will be open to access only but would be stopped where new unofficial pedestrian crossings are. The reason for such a long time is not that it will take them that long to lay the slabs, but that it needs to cure for 28 days.
Worth noting that during the six week closure, there will be a massive reduction in bus services through Forest Hill with the 176 and 197 diverted via Kirkdale and Sydenham Hill missing FH all together going straight to Dulwich and the 122 operating via Sydenham Rise and London Road.
This will put a lot of pressure on the 185 as the only through service between FH and East Dulwich.
I think I would be more worried about when the buses aren’t on diversion. I think a lot of people would prefer to walk to Kirkdale/Sydenham Hill than be stuck on the bus while it negotiates a contraflow system on Dartmouth Road. Many people partly do this already and get off by Holy Trinity and walk down Dartmouth Road to the station or London Road.
One thing wasn’t clear on the leaflet that came through was hours of operation of the traffic lights and the working hours. Are they the same or are the traffic lights 24/7 and people working just between 8 and 530?
It’s a very good point. Given that “Two-way manual traffic control will be implemented” until phase 4a (November 2017) it would suggest that this will only be during hours when works are taking place. Which means that there may be no restrictions outside of working hours and normal two-way traffic may be allowed.
Does it really take 28 days? Would 7 days not be long enough to allow for appropriate curing for use?
http://www.standardsforhighways.co.uk/ha/standards/ians/pdfs/ian96r1.pdf
I think we need a separate thread - or a separate section - or better still, an entirely separate forum - for people who know far too much about Tarmac than anybody has any need to know… 
I make no apology for blatantly bringing this subject back to the fore because of the impact it will have on the town centre for the best part of a year.
Are we really prepared for this upheaval?
Who’s got any contingency plans -
Lewisham Highways?
Lewisham Regeneration?
Local Councillors?
Forest Hill Traders Association?
Forest Hill Society?
Individual shopkeepers/landlords/residents?
Is there a case for reduced Business Rates during the disruption caused by the roadworks?
Have all of the utilities companies been contacted to alert them to the opportunity of being able to carry-out any repairs, alterations or maintenance while the road’s up?
Interested parties all need to get their heads together to try to make this as painless as possible.
The general feeling amongst DRd Traders is that they are worried about the amount of trade they could lose during this period 
Sadly FHTA don’t have any money to subsidise any losses for any individual that may be hit hard - I wish we did.
ETA I’m more than happy to help set up a meeting & invite all concerned @Michael would you be up for helping with this too
I’m sure a meeting of FHTA would be valuable and I would be happy to attend. But I’m not sure what mitigation we would be able to put in place (other than @Anotherjohn’s parking suggestions). However, it would be something that is best discussed off-forum.
No probs, I’ll send an email later on & Cc @Anotherjohn
Email sent to FHTA (you’ve probably got it by now) to arrange a meeting next week with @Anotherjohn CC’d @anon5422159 is also part of our group aswell as our local Cllr’s so if I’ve missed out anything important in my email please reply to all with any info I may have missed
Back to D Rd Improvements in general.
Personally I think it will look amazing when it’s done, but I really don’t hope this will be at the expense of losing any of our independent Traders during the process.
Back to the plans
We’re having a Traders meeting tomorrow evening about this, 6pm at the library. If anyone has strong suggestions about this please share & I can share at our meeting tomorrow.
Thanks!
Maybe I don’t like the drilling, it’s bloody noisy, but seriously I don’t really mind
Works have now just started to finish for the night
I’ve been chatting with the guy that’s overseeing everything & he’s told me that when the Road closes for 6 weeks from 9th Jan it will be in sections over the period, so not the whole Road.
And on Friday evenings he’ll give me some barriers so we can section off an extra part of the Road for events on Saturdays during this time
Does that mean that it will be closed in both directions or would they have an option to only close it one way? If they’re doing sections at a time, it might make sense to reduce the disruption with a contraflow rather than a complete closure.
Confused is the date January 2018?
It will be closed in both directions @Dave
@Wynell the works are taking place now, but from 9th Jan 2018 is when the Road will be closed in sections for 6 weeks.
Sorry if this has been asked before but does anyone know if the Dartmouth Rd improvement works will include work by Thames Water to replace water mains? It seems to me that the frequency and impact of the burst water mains on Dartmouth Rd and the damage they cause mean that these works will be (excuse the pun) money down the drain if there’s not also a simultaneous coherent strategy of water main improvements?
Yes the Dartmouth Road flood is back folks!
I do hope there is something planned…
Update!
After speaking to the main guy yesterday, he’s told me that there has been a delay with the grey slabs being delivered (from the Uk) so as this is now taking 17 weeks proper work is due to start on the 5th June - all granite etc has already arrived from China.
He told me we would get a letter today to confirm this, so here it is:
Some good news!
@MajaHilton popped in today to say she has managed to secure 2 hours free parking at Perryvale car park for 1 year while the D Rd improvements are going on.
So thanks Maja for securing this & thanks Mr @Anotherjohn for keeping pushing on this for us
That is fantastic - well done, all.
Brilliant news! Well done @MajaHilton and all who pushed for this.
I want to send a massive THANK YOU to Maja Hilton for staying on this and getting it through.
And I want to send a massive THANK YOU to you too for persevering 
Thanks for posting @Anotherjohn
I almost had a heart attack seeing charge up to 3 hours.
It does say that the first 2 hours are free (phew), so a bit of a steep charge for the third hour.
Anyhow, I hope the message can be spread around that from 1st July 2017 for a year first 2 hours are free.
The notice is very confusing. It needs to lead with the free period, then the scale after that. Otherwise people will glance at it and think there is no free period, either now or in the grace period during the road works.
I assumed that the notice was just a legal notice, rather than a signage, which should read:
Up to 2 hours - FREE PARKING
2 to 3 hours - £1.40
2 hours until midnight - £5.00
(Replace midnight with a time that parking becomes free, if earlier than midnight.)
I agree,
The notice is badly worded. I will try and get the officers to change it.
Nicely done @MajaHilton Thank you.
That’s good news.
Whatever the wording, it is worth making clear that customers will presumably still need a ticket, even if they will be there for less than two hours. A lot of people used to be caught out in Sainsburys car park because of unclear signs. It’s probably less of an issue in Perry Vale, but it’s so galling to get a ticket when you believe you are doing the right thing.
I agree, it needs to be clearly said that there is:
The officers say that the notice of change had to be in such a format but the eventual signing will be in more sensible wording. I did reiterate that a reminder that a ticket is needed should be equally prominent.
This is a year long trial period. If 2 hour parking is popular it may become permanent. In other words use it or lose it.
Thanks Maja
I’ll most certainly use it. Thanks, @MajaHilton again.
I like the temporary traffic lights. The contraflow system seems to improve the traffic flow, possibly because it stops people hogging the road and obstructing traffic coming in the opposite direction.
Unfortunately at peak times what is happening is that the traffic heading towards Forest Hill from Sydenham is getting backed up at the London Rd junction lights and drivers are not waiting at the temporary lights to check that they can make it all the way through. Instead they are just proceeding on the green light regardless, getting backed up so far into the contraflow that when the lights change to green for the traffic heading towards Sydenham they can’t go because the lane is clogged. It’s typical idiotic selfish driving that doesn’t make their journey any quicker but inconveniences everyone else.
I look forward to walking down there next Saturday.
Yesterday there was some moron parked just beyond the temp lights which effectively meant that the buses and fire engine that were going down from Forest Hill could not exit the single lane and it was completely blocked. He seemed incapable of understanding what to do and messed around going back and forth without actually achieving anything.
He was of course politely encouraged by cyclists, motorcyclists, drivers and firemen to GTFO with his 4x4 - always nice to see Londoners coming together as one plus it gave everyone a chance to thank the Firemen for being amazing which was lovely to see
Are you popping by?
Hope you are
Sadly only getting there at 6pm and around for a bit on Sunday. Will make every effort to pop in.
Re Pauline’s comments here re problems with the contraflow - what exactly was causing the obstruction? Bad parking? Or people entering the contraflow late or not clearing it quickly enough? Detailed observations now could be fed back to the contractors / tfl in case they can make adjustments to the timing of the lights and/or put some more parking restrictions into effect.
Other than people parking in stupid places the problem is caused by northbound queues stretching from the traffic lights all the way through the contraflow - so that nobody can enter heading southbound. This situation will only get worse as the contraflow is repositioned further north, towards the South Circular junction, and ensuring a queue of traffic becomes stuck there most of the time.
Perhaps temporary lights are needed at the south circular junction instead or as well, to control the flow.
The other thing that often happens with these works is that after a few days regular users start to take different routes to avoid it and things ease off.
I was going to suggest clearly marked alternative routes in an effort to divert some of this traffic. Though I would guess residents on those alternative routes might have something to complain about here afterwards.
All of what Michael said above @RachaelDunlop plus there was extra rail replacement buses this weekend.
Also the parking bays outside my shop are still in use & in the middle of the temporary traffic lights - an accident waiting to happen I think as I saw a few leave their parking spaces & almost go into oncoming traffic as they can’t see any lights!
I think it is really unsafe!
Sadly that is highly unlikely as it would interfere with the traffic flow on the South Circular. Jams are allowed on Dartmouth Road (and Honor Oak Road) to keep traffic flowing better on the South Circular - not that traffic flows particularly well on the South Circular as it is.
Which bit is the granite for ?
The granite will be at various parts of the Road going across from pavement to pavement & will act as crossings for pedestrians.
Oh nice
I don’t think there is an issue with sign posting existing routes such as go up Kirkdale (aka Forest Hill bypass) rather than Dartmouth Road, there would be an issue if you were suggesting using residential roads.
It is fine as long as you are not telling people on social media , outside the school gates or in the cafe/pub is acceptable.
Slightly connected, should we be helping residents outside Forest Lodge who will have to move their 30 cars find alternative places to park giving them tips on which streets are jam packed and which are relatively clear.
I walked from the All in One to Kirkdale yesterday morning and was amused to see a black Golf stop at the red light by the road works and then just drive on. I shook my head and smiled as he reversed back having not seen the large, red double decker bus that was already coming the other way.
Some people are such idiots.
A heated discussion at the FH ward assembly this evening. Lots of anger from Forest Lodge and 117 Dartmouth Road residents who are concerned that the land they currently park on is being ‘stolen’ by the council and that they will lose all their parking spaces. A council officer explained that in the council’s view the residents will in fact still own the land but will not be allowed to park on it because it is legally part of the highway The council officer seemed to concede that the council’s consultation process had been less that perfect so far as the Forest Lodge/117 residents were concerned, but said that it was now too late to change the plans.The residents are threatening legal action
There was concern that this loss of parking will add to existing parking pressures in Thorpewood Avenue and adjoining streets. The only answer, so far as the council is concerned, seems to be to have another local referendum on setting up a CPZ. It looks likely that this will in fact happen when the current works have been completed.
Why all the fuss? Won’t the residents simply continue to drive over the curb as the do now?
I believe the council plan to install bollards to prevent parking on the residents land.
Also to add, it’s not just residents who park outside the residences along Dartmouth road but workers and visitors to Forest Hill Pools, Louise House, the library and shops. Will they stop ‘popping in’ due to lack of convenient parking?
Could the council not provide a dropped kerb within the scheme or can the residents apply for one. A CPZ does nothing except provide a source of revenue to the council I believe £120.00/car/year…
Given we now have 200+ replies in this topic, would anyone mind me splitting some posts out into dedicated topic(s)?
For starters, a new topic called “Dartmouth Road Improvements - Parking”:
0 voters
I think that’s a good idea and as mods we could keep on top of keeping topic titles useful - 'Dartmouth Road Improvements: [specific subject]
And may be a leave a general open topic for wider issues to do with the works?
I personally think it is unnecessary to split the thread. Changes to parking are an integral and central feature of the ‘improvements’. Separating the two subjects will, in my view, be likely to cause confusion.
More likely to prevent people from driving over the public footpath to access the private land, which is technically illegal and damages both the footpath and underlying services. A dropped curb would solve both of these, but I guess there’s also a safety consideration given the proximity of the bus stop and traffic crossing.
I presume that this is where the parking at issue is. Looking at the image, there seem to be sections of dropped kerb; however, looking at the image below, you can see irresponsible parking by the car hiding behind the bus stop.
I really think that there needs to be a reduction of on-road parking further down Dartmouth Road (near the florist) as it impacts traffic and makes it difficult and unpleasant for pedestrians, but the parking below seems acceptable to pedestrians, cyclists and cars.
That was certainly one of things mentioned yesterday evening. The issue is made worse by the fact that the people parked there tend to reverse into a busy main road
Car parking on the ‘pavement’ outside Forest Lodge and 117 Dartmouth Road, whilst not being ideal, is historic (47 years that I’ve been around FH!), hence, in my opinion, whoever wants to change it (Lewisham/TFL?) should have sought to do so through proper consultation with the beneficiaries and the legal process long before getting the roadworkers in.
If I lived there and had become reliant on a parking space - or if I lived in Thorpewood or Sydenham Park - and all of a sudden bollards were put in willy-nilly, as per the scheduled works, I’d keep smashing them down until someone got the message.
I hope that after all these years of Lewisham’s acceptance of the status quo they will struggle to put a strong enough legal case together to affect the current adopted use of this land. But this might depend upon some residents who’ve had continuous use of the parking spaces for the statutory period of 12(?) years.
With safety in mind, obviously, as with anyone anywhere who drives across a footpath to access a parking space in front of their property - be that a driveway or a crossover - there is a responsibility to do it with the utmost care to pedestrians and other motorists so, unless there is a poor accident record, that shouldn’t be held as a reason why this can’t continue to happen in this particular location.
I seem to remember a discussion about this a couple of years ago on another local forum.
The problem is that regardless of custom and practice, the access across the pavement, in the absence of a dropped kerb, is basically illegal and won’t be protected.
According to the minutes circulated by Michael after a meeting on 15th March 2016, the following points were discussed:
- The Council’s legal team are in contact with the legal representation of Forest Lodge residents regarding the rights of both parties over the land currently used for parking outside the property. No design can be finalised until this issue is resolved.
- Continuing with existing situation where cars cross the footway is not acceptable by the Council and the stakeholders.
It sounds to me like some detailed consultation was done and that the Council’s lawyers had already investigated the use of the land for parking and felt like they had a clear-cut view - crossing the footpath wasn’t acceptable. The big issue would presumably be that you couldn’t have a single car-wide section of dropped kerb to access the spaces, as the space is fairly narrow and needs each car to cross the pavement in a different place.
The residents of Thorpewood, and anyone planning on parking there to access the shops or the pools are going to have a lot more congestion to deal with if / when this goes ahead.
Hopefully they won’t resort to criminal damage.
So, this issue was resolved in law was it?
I would be surprised if Lewisham’s challenge wasn’t disallowed under the acquiescence rule due to the fact that for decades they had appeared to accept accept or agree by keeping quiet or by not making objections.
Of course, I would only resort to smashing the bollards up if I felt that they had been put in without an unequivocal legal right to do so.
Unfortunately one needs to check if there is any historical order raised to object to the access across the pavement as even if it was never acted upon there is no statute of limitation on prohibition orders.
I had a situation where a property formerly a coach house was converted into a dwelling, it was registered for council tax had an address and refuse service as well as all services but several years earlier the council had denied approval. They chose to ignore it as the funds were limited to enforce but could do so at any time they chose. In fact there are several drive overs in SE23 some marked with cones to deter parking but ignored by the council.
Has the idea of swapping the pavement and parking around been considered? I.e. creating parking spaces directly off the road, with a path behind? Granted the bus stop would need to be moved.
That might be a solution but would require a new planning application, liaison with Tfl and lots of consultation which will delay works, so probably not. There must be information somewhere in the archives?
Another point is there is a planning requirement that entering a main road one should do so in a forward gear, not sure if that could be used to challenge the residents?
Basically in all my dealings with planners just because others have done something it sets no precedents.
Great news!
The new footpaths/pavements opposite the shops on my little strip are now new & open to the public & special granite balls will be coming soon to stop unwanted parking soon at Forest Lodge. Please don’t shoot the messenger guys 
Update!
Very sad to report some traders from the strip from the library/pools to just around The Hill & Agas Deli are losing trade due to the improvements.
I won’t comment on individuals but one shop told me today they have been down around £600 the last couple of weeks & we’ve all been quieter than normal…
Another few (including me) have had the worst days takings over this period & I personally am really worried about this for the shops overall.
Please make an effort to take a walk to your fav shops on D Rd during this time, I certainly don’t want to loose any due to this.
I will also add that Curtis that is overseeing the works is very accommodating to all traders as much as possible…
You know the saying “Use Them OR loose Them” so get supporting your fav D Rd Traders for about the next year - various parts & traders will be effected at different times on D Rd.
All want to stick it out, so please help All do this
"Lewisham Council are pleased to announce that free parking is now available in the Perry Vale car park for up to two hours.
This has been provided by the Council to provide visitors to the area, including the nearby library, swimming pool and shops, with a viable alternative to parking on the road during the current road works. The two-hour free parking period will be available until at least June 2018.
We will then review the scheme’s success, considering whether more people are using the car park and the effect on street parking.
Please note that normal parking charges will apply after the first two hours. Signs displayed within the car park provide details of any charges which may apply.
More general information about car parks and parking in Lewisham can be found via the following link:
http://www.lewisham.gov.uk/myservices/parking/carparks/Pages/car-parks.aspx
Hi Pauline. Sad to hear about the drop in trade. Do you have any ideas where the losses are coming from? (I’m thinking about who is staying away and why.)
So far there has been very little (official/legal) parking taken out of action, and it seems (albeit from my limited perspective) that the parking is generally as occupied as it usually is. Similarly, commuter footfall ought to be unaffected, with people still walking the length of the road to get to the station as usual.
So who is staying away and what is the key factor in them staying away? Loss of parking? Congestion? Noise and general disruption from the works?
To avoid any confusion, I feel I should point out that I’m asking out of concern for the traders and to see if there’s any way we can improve the situation.
Hi Brendan, I think the main reason is the noise & general disruption - I’ve very much noticed much less footfall on D Rd since the works began.& really hope locals that use shops, cafes etc do carry on throughout the works as they will be so much more pleasant to use after them, and I certainly don’t want any to suffer so much that they may be gone when the works are completed. On the other hand I completely understand why locals are not visiting due to noise etc.
I also thing that people that drive to the shops for a quick visit are put off by the congestion, so just don’t bother trying - The free parking for 2 hours at Perryvale car park should help with this, though some want to park right outside to grab & go if they are in a rush.
We’re all supporting each other at the moment, but I’m worried as some are having to think about cutting staff hours etc.
Massive thanks for your concern for the traders, I really appreciate it. I’m more worried for others rather than myself.
Traffic jams on Dartmouth Road today - NOT due to the roadworks and traffic lights, but all caused by cars parked on the single yellow lines! There was a van parked outside The Hill, and about 6 cars parked all the way along on the single yellows. It’s impossible for two buses going in opposite directions to get past each other. I was sat for about 10 minutes waiting because the buses were basically stuck. One bus was right in front of me and at one point it had to mount the pavement to get through - not safe for pedestrians, and can’t be good for the pavements either. I can’t believe it’s not double yellow lines all the way down that narrow stretch. Why does anyone need to park there?
Hopefully the improvement works will make this better?!
If you are disabled and have to walk with sticks, 200 metres is a hell of a walk.
The temporary bus stop outside the jewellers was fantastic. Will it be back as a permanent feature does anyone know? It was very popular, always people using it.i even got off the bus a couple of times, and being on that side of the road was tempted by the window display in il Mirtos.
Yes it will become permanent bus stop. 
I often get stuck going up Thorpewood Avenue at the side of the library, often having to reverse or park over a driveway. This small section could be one way or no parking on one side. We should think of how to relieve traffic jams off Dartmouth road as well as on it. Another alternative is re-opening Round Hill to relieve this congestion. Radlet Avenue and the top of Thorpewood are generally empty apart from a few parked cars allowing a less congested route for parking or getting to the schools.
Hi @EmmaJ
I frequently go up and down on Thorpewood Avenue. I am just trying to imagine the journey you describe and I can’t quite picture it. When you go up hill from the library there is only one driveway quite a long way up. I guess by the library bit can be a bit slow at times(around school drop off and pick up time), and going down hill I would look for traffic ahead of me. Currently Derby Hill end is closed so more cars will be trying to get out this way. Other than school morning rush, I don’t think it is necessary to remove parking spaces from one side or open Round Hill. Parking pressure here is already quite considerable.
I have been thinking if one way would work. I can’t decide which way would be more beneficial to me as a resident. So I am a bit stuck on the issue.
It is that small section between Thorpewood and Derby Hill Crescent. I have got stuck normally in the evenings or on Saturday mornings, there are a few driveways but I think people park over them. It is just a suggestion as it would be a shame to see Dartmouth blocked after this work because cars can’t access schools/parking in nearby streets and are queuing to turn in. I think it would relieve the bottleneck and a one way on round hill would spread parking among more streets thereby reducing the parking pressure.
I know what you mean. I think there’s an ideological element to the plans. As in other schemes (e.g. the unpopular 20mph scheme), the council might be trying to reduce car usage by making car usage less pleasant.
You mention that 20mph limit is unpopular but the reverse is the case. It is popular and has been for some years now according to recent research. I’ll grant you that quite a few motorists don’t seem to like it, and perhaps they have stronger lobby groups than cyclists,pedestrians, children so we hear rather disproportionately from them. People want lower speeds where they live, work and play. http://www.bristolhealthpartners.org.uk/latest-news/2017/10/16/public-support-for-20mph-limits-holds-firm-new-study-reveals/961
Look, @ThorNogson, clearly you don’t understand that @anon5422159 is a perfectly safe driver and is aware of his surrounding - both visible and hidden - in all lights and wether conditions. Yes, we see many others driving recklessly, but why should Chris be inconvenienced due to the irresponsibility of others? You should stop being selfish.
Can we keep this thread on topic? The 20 mph ruling is irrelevant to Dartmouth Road as there is no chance of reaching that speed anyway.
I find the arguments about narrowing the road and widening the pavement not entirely convincing. The area by the Thorpewood Avenue bus stop on the east side of the road had no need of widening and yet is now several feet wider and the road now essentially one-lane/one way. Dartmouth Road is the main artery from Sydenham to Forest Hill and the route of all but one bus from Sydenham/Crystal Palace. There were already traffic jams every morning at rush hour before these works as buses tried to turn onto London Road. Now they are much worse as buses cannot pass each other easily. This adds about 25 minutes to my commute by bus. I don’t see it ending at the end of the wirks.
The only thing I could see that was necessary in the road improvements was to lessen these traffic jams, but they have been made worse – apparently deliberately, according to a letter from an official on the Sydenham Town Forum.
The letter (emphasis mine, towards the bottom):
So the council admits it’s willing to deliberately cause congestion by forcing the entire flow of traffic to come to a grinding halt every time a bus stops.
This is classic zero-sum policy-making, and so crudely implemented
The main improvement to the traffic flow will be the double yellow lines on both sides of the street, particularly towards the north end.
Improved pedestrian space and crossings will make the street more attractive to shoppers, with slightly increased numbes of parking bays and length of stay. Although this is a through road, it is also the heart of the town centre and the primary objective for Dartmouth Road should be a place that people want to visit, rather than driving to Bell Green for all their shopping.
I’m not a highway engineer, so I’m not sure the exact impact on road speeds and jams, but i think there is a school of thought that says slower speeds regulate flow and reduce the build up of jams. That does depend on the outflow from a particular section, and Dartmouth Road northbound is still limited by the flow on to the junction with the south circular. Speed calming, bus stops, and narrow streets will have little impact on that bottleneck. And with the double yellow lines the flow should actually improve.
Some people have suggested that the double yellow lines won’t work and people will park there anyway. Personally i doubt it will be such a problem and the narrower road will actually stop this from happening as anybody parking on the double yellow will be completely blocking traffic flow (unless they are right on the pavement). The aim is certainly not to increase jams, it is actually hoped that it will improve flow, but that might be too much to ask for on a road that is often a 500m queue northbound.
No scheme could solve all the problems on this road and this scheme is an attempt to balance the needs and safety of drivers, bus users, pedestrians, cyclists, traders, and shoppers. At the moment the road is incorrectly balanced in favour of inconsiderate parking and against pedestrians and shoppers. I’m hopeful that the scheme will be positive for almost everybody, including drivers.
Sorry to say that double yellows will do nothing to stop those people who want to stop from stopping. I has happened for the 16 years I lived there and I cannot see it stopping just because someone put new yellow lines on the road. Dartmouth road has a pinch point and unless you have an enforcement officer there twenty four seven some idiot will always park outside the shops, half on the pavement, and block traffic.
Increased numbers of proper parking bays - definitely a good idea.
Double red lines may have made a difference if the scheme was intended to prevent anti-social parking:
The seven-figure cost of reconfiguring the pavements could have more than covered the cost of parking enforcement, and fines could have been a revenue stream.
However, as @Michael accurately points out, single file roads will prevent parking. Sledgehammers crack nuts, there’s no denying it.
It’s a shame no one told the M25 designers that single-file roads “regulate flow and prevent traffic jams” - just think how much money the UK could have saved on motorway construction.
Let’s see how ambulances and police cars get on with the new improved traffic flow that comes from reducing two lanes to one and ensuring that everyone travels at the speed of the slowest (or stationary) bus in front.
cough white BMW near the florist cough
That’s the one!
I remember an encounter between someone using the nail bar and a bus driver. She had parked right outside the nail bar, half on the pavement. Traffic was snarled up as a result. A bus driver coming into FH opened his window as she got into her car and asked her not to park there as it was causing chaos. Her response “F*ck you, I will do what I like”.
Some people really really dont care.
maybe it’s just an expensive way of introducing the popular 20mph speed limit
Those people just need to be fined. They don’t listen to people. Only money. No point trying to reason with them.
But who will fine them?
https://www.lewisham.gov.uk/myservices/parking/parking-enforcement/Pages/about.aspx
Who issues parking penalty notices?
On red routes, parking penalties are issued by Metropolitan Police traffic wardens. On all other roads in the borough, parking tickets are issued by our parking enforcement contractor, NSL Services.
As I said, who will issue them. I believe that all of your (dwindling) local police have higher priorities. Yes I am sure they will do the odd sweep, but on a day to day basis, I doubt it. I have never seen a ticket issued on the double yellows but have seen lots on over stayers in marked bays. It makes you wonder doesn’t it.
Perhaps we’ll leave a discussion on dwindling police budgets and the affects on the community for a politicos thread.
But I read the Lewisham guidance as a suggestion the Met Police had a special division for parking on red routes. As for yellow line ticketing, I’ve seen a few tickets hugging screens in the area. I gather these services are self-funding though I"m sure some may have thoughts on that too.
The police shouldn’t be asked to enforce parking. I would hope they are trying to solve more serious crimes. The council should be able to enforce parking issues. It is better that they say they don’t bother such as with parking over people’s driveways than be half hearted in their prosecution of the law. It is never enforced so why keep up the pretence. As for Dartmouth Road, spend a few weeks showing no mercy and people will soon behave.
I agree. But I guess it comes down to jurisdiction. I didn’t think the Council had jurisdiction on red routes. Apparently the Met has employed traffic wardens for years.
Hi there!
Not sure if anyone here will know or maybe it’s a silly question, but is there a schedule for the road closures so we know which bit will be closed off when?
I’m due to have a baby very early Feb and live on Dartmouth road, will need to get a taxi to the Hospital and starting to think about where I will be calling it from and the route / traffic issues!
Thanks!
I fear for the day an emergency vehicle is trapped in the traffic standstill. Now the width of the road has been significantly reduced, two buses are often stuck. Every morning between Thorpewood Avenue and London Road I am passed by cyclists using the pavement, and on 3 or 4 occasions, even motorcycles, going on the pavement because they don’t want to wait in the traffic. Congratulations Lewisham Council. You have wasted ove4 a million pounds of our money in order that we can walk ten abreast on the pavement, but will burn to death if there’s a fire as the engine will be stuck in the traffic jam your ridiculous road narrowing has caused. Meanwhile, you tell residents opposite the library they cannot park outside their houses, but you have wasted money building a patio large enough to hold a tea dance.
My hope is that the narrow road will put as many drivers off as possible to avoid Dartmouth Road on their journey so only shoppers and buses and emergency vehicles can pass freely
Gem, Curtis who’s overseeing the works will be giving me an exact date for the final week (which will probably be the first or second week in March) by the end of this year. I’ll ask him which parts of the Road will be closed when during the 5 weeks prior to this & post it on here.
Hi Pauline,
Oh that would be great information, thanks for letting me know. Trying not to worry as there’s nothing I can do but with it being my first, getting to hospital without a panic is definitely in the back of my mind! I live behind the shops as you head up to the swimming pool (opposite side) so right in the thick of it!
Please don’t worry or panic as there will always be access for emergency services & side Roads will mostly be accessible during this period - worst case scenario for you is you may have to have your cab pick you up around 10 metres from where you live. The final week which will see the biggest stretch of the Road closed there will be access near you via Dartmouth Place (think that’s the right name for the side Road by Hair Lounge & Fortune Inn) & upwards from there on D Rd.
Feel free to pop by & I’ll take you to introduce you to Curtis any week day to have a chat with him & put you at ease.
I completely understand about you worrying about your first birth - I was terrified & it doesn’t help if you have extra things to worry about aswell as the norm.
Feel free to pass me your email address if you like & I can give you what updates I get during this 6 week period which is likely to be all of Febuary & the first 2 weeks in March.
Thank you Pauline, this makes me feel a lot better!
I’ll message you my email address so you can pass on the info, that would be really handy.
…silly question but can I message you privately on this forum? I can’t work out how!!
Thanks again!
Due to the circumstances I’m going to verify you now which will enable you to pm me anytime on here.
@moderators hope you don’t mind me doing this as a one off, P
Ah thank you!
Just this once, P Could you add a profile picture please, @Gem? We ask all verified members to do this.
By the way, if you’re a verified member, you’re able to send a PM to an unverified member, which means they’re free to reply at any time.
Also, @moderators are happy to enable PMing for any new member after a couple of basic checks on their profile.
Done, thank you!
Thanks Chris xx
It is a conscious design decision to keep buses in the flow of traffic, as this helps to improve bus journey times and acts as a way of slowing traffic speeds to support the new 20mph limit
This just sounds like utter lunacy! As others have said, it will reduce traffic to a standstill every bus stop, far worse than it was before, not 20mph.
I’ve had an out-of-the-box thought - can we petition to make Dartmouth Road a red route? Bear with me here, but these are the benefits I see:
I don’t think that they would accept another road to regulate and maintain. The only reason that I could imagine that TFL would even care about Dartmouth Road is if it backs up onto the S Circular sufficient to stop traffic flow on the S Circular.
Post “improvements,” a stationary bus may well back traffic up to the South Circular, with the ripple effect spreading well beyond the high street.
But I’m sure the cyclists, walkers and bus-users of Lewisham Council know what’s best for road traffic management.
Are you implying cyclists and walkers designed the new road layout, which is clearly untrue? I don’t think we need any false news, thanks.
Are you implying that the civil servants in the council are car users?
That seems a stretch, given the priorities evident in their design decisions.
People saying that the new road will block emergency vehicles and make traffic worse - citation needed please.
As far as I’m aware, narrow single lane traffic deters people from stopping and the traffic flows better. I think half the issue with that road is its wide enough that people park and stop everywhere, but it’s too narrow to support it and there’s always blockages.
As for people living in flats in central London and expecting to have parking spaces right outside their property - sense of entitlement much?
I’m sure bus drivers will take that onboard. And those irritating people that stop when the the car in front does.
The burden of proof lies squarely with the advocates of changing a wide road to a narrow road.
Here’s a thought: how about we wait until the work is finished and see how the new configuration works (or doesn’t)? Neither side can prove their case right now.
No.
The design of the new layout is by Project Centre, you can tell as the planning documents are branded Project Centre. They are hard to find at the first post of this thread, I grant you. My point is that the professional traffic planners probably know what is best for road traffic management.
Would they not be working to a brief from the council though?
the Council set out objectives and I would think that is what Project Centre worked with and the completed project should be assessed on. It’s not all about cars and traffic, though some of the objectives were to do with traffic issues, such as supporting the popular 20mph speed limit. There are broader objectives to do with boosting the economy, pedestrian use etc which were also listed in the plans that were consulted on. This thread is now so long that I can’t easily find the published objectives so here we go:-
The main objectives in the consultation leaflet were:
‘Support the introduction of a borough-wide 20mph speed limit,
reducing vehicle speeds and improving safety at junctions.
Control illegal parking.
Help the local economy by improving the overall appearance and
accessibility of the street through upgraded paving and street trees.
Make the street more pedestrian friendly and encourage sustainable
travel modes.’
they are slightly different on the Lewisham website now:-
'The key objectives for the scheme are as follows:
Reduce speed to 20mph
Manage traffic and parking
Support the local economy
Enhance the environment
Improve the sense of arrival in Forest Hill
Increase pedestrian activity ’
… and the objectives and ensuing proposals, including the width restriction to 6.2 m are very similar to Lewisham proposals for Kirkdale and Hither Green. I suppose the objectives are designed by the council to follow requirements set out in Highways Agency design principles, which I imagine traffic engineers and Lewisham are required to follow in order to get any external funding or approval for highways work.
Doesn’t really answer the question whether it is reasonable for stopped buses to hold up all traffic going their way though- I can only assume that this is considered reasonable by the Highways Agency and DfT , taking into account the needs of the community including non-motorised road users.
Just to note that at 8pm yesterday evening there were THREE cars all parked on the new pavement area between Forest Hill Pools and Derby Hill - in each case they were parked entirely on the pavement (ie all four wheels) and effectively blocking the pavement for pedestrians (it certainly wouldn’t have been able to get a wheelchair / pushchair through the small space between the car and the wall in front of Dartmouth Estate).
As others have pointed out the success of this project seems to me to be almost entirely dependent on parking enforcement. Without it either cars will park on the pavements (defeating the pedestrian purpose of the pavement widening and probably causing sufficient damage to the pavements that they will soon have to be repaired at further expense), or they will park on the road, which is now narrower, blocking one lane and causing congestion, or a combination of the two.
Do the counsel understand that the enormous sums of public money they’ve ploughed into this will be wasted unless they commit to parking enforcement?
Currently sitting in a bus on Dartmouth Road. Traffic backed up to Sydenham School. This is a ridiculous situation. I need to know that I can get to work in an hour without having to spend 25 minutes on Dartmouth Road.
London Bridge platforms to Charing Cross were closed for 18 month which was a real pain and we all had to find alternatives to make it into work so I have high hopes that a bottleneck on Dartmouth Road until march won’t bring London to a standstill
London Bridge closed for eighteen months you say? When was that?
I edited my post so it doesn’t confuse anyone 
I have seen it twice already. Two buses were unable to pass each other outside the hill, when it had been narrowed by barriers. An ambulance was stuck for 2-3 minutes behind the buses, sirens blaring. going towards Sydenham . Saw it the other way too, outside the takeaway that replaced Bamboo House. 2-3 can be the difference between life and death.
Real shame that some car drivers are so irresponsible
I saw that parking on the new pavement a while back - quite stunned to see it - and see that traffic cones are now on that stretch to prevent it.
My latest concern is the design of the new parking bays that are now complete in some places. It seems there is a mild kerb to get onto them from the road itself (not sure if this will change after resurfacing), but they are then at the same level as the pavement, the only visual separation being the change in paving style. It’s almost encouraging pavement parking.
On top of that these ‘pavement bays’ are so narrow that anything other than a normal car (a van, for example) will not fit inside, meaning that either the vehicle wheels will overhang into the road or the vehicle will need to be driven onto the pavement. As the road is going to be quite narrow, it would be risky to leave a van encroaching into it, so I assume the pavement option will be taken.
I wonder what it was in the design process that led to this arrangement…?
I agree with your concerns about parking on the pavement. I think we can see the heights and general layout in Sydenham for comparison (the parking seems to work quite well there).
Hmm, there’s not much in it, but there is definitely a teeny-weeny height difference between the parking bay and pavement in Sydenham vs the contiguously common height between the same (albeit with different paviors) in Dartmouth Road. It still seems like an invitation to encroach onto the pavement - one that would be easily taken advantage of based on past experience of pavement parking particularly at the London road end of Dartmouth Road.
If there is going to be any real parking enforcement after the works (which has been sadly absent prior) how easy will it be to ticket a vehicle which is is in a parking bay but has encroached onto the pavement part of said ‘bay’. Seems to me like a recipe / excuse for more of what we have now…
I didn’t think I would ever end up posting such boring photos but they do make a point. The photos are of the junctions to the north of Dartmouth Road. There is a major difference in the length of the double yellow lines, one is about .5 of a metre after the crossing paviours where loads of children from the 2 schools and families going to the pools cross on Thorpewood Avenue and the other which is 5m is on Derby Hill where there aren’t as many kids crossing and where you get less cars turning in.
The double yellows on TA are followed by single yellows but as we know from Dartmouth Road, single yellows are a complete waste of time in preventing people parking. Thorpewood Avenue has very high traffic levels and at times cars racing down between the parked cars outside the library and school so they don’t get trapped as there isn’t enough room for 2 cars to pass. You need to step out in the road to see past the cars/vans to cross.
Proper traffic enforcement needs to be implemented it only has to happen for a few weeks before the idiot drivers get the message and the problems stop.
That of course excuses those drivers who have the special park anywhere flashers which seem to be used to justify any transgression.
My point is more that you should have more than 50 cm of double yellow lines between the crossing and the road at a dangerous junction where loads of people, many of them kids who can’t see over cars cross the road.
Most people respect double yellow lines and see them as marking out some place where you cause danger to other people or your car by parking on them, they don’t require a lot of enforcement and it is easier to enforce.
We have a situation in Wynell road turning left from Perry Vale cars park just on the corner. When I asked why no yellow lines as it would prevent an accident, I was told there was limited funds and perhaps if an accident occurred it may be prioritised.
So when someone gets knocked down they will sort it? Sorry to be so blunt but previous experience in two other locations I have lived (Cambridge, Suffolk) this proved to be the case unfortunately one death and one serious injury suddenly road marking and central islands were installed.
With regards to the parking spaces being created by narrowing Dartmouth Road, will these be permit only parking?
No they won’t.
That’s going to be part of phase two so the residents of Dartmouth Road can park near their homes 
Worse part for us Dartmouth Road dwellers is that we are all being choked to death by the traffic fumes before, during and after the roadworks…isn’t there a law against that?
Oh well done Lewisham Council. Spending millions in order that the residents of the flats near the library can’t park where they live, but people who want to drive in from Kent etc and commute from Forest Hill can park nearer the station, and don’t even have to pay parking now!
Why can’t they give residents priority?
All the parking bays on Dartmouth Road will be time limited, so useless for commuters (and for residents). A CPZ on Thorpewood or Sydenham Park could be considered if the residents want it - and the commuter parking, teacher parking, and shop employees will be displaced to other local streets.
I doubt the council would put a CPZ on Dartmouth Road as it would have a negative impact on shops. So a permit system on Dartmouth Road seems highly unlikely.
Wasn’t the money for the works provided by TFL not Lewisham?
TFL have been the main source of monies for this project!
Personally I think this will look amazing when finished.
Though it has been a hard slog for traders to miss out on custom throughout this.
It’s 6 of 1 and half a dozen of the other in my opinion!, My quotes are rubbish
I hope all carry on shopping, eating ,& drinking on D Rd to support us the local traders, sadly I know some are suffering.
So keep shopping at your fav places please to keep them on the High Street.
None of us are invincible you know, including me.
So if you want to keep us, use us during this testing time.
Merry Christmas to all and best for the New Year.
Walking along Dartmouth Road on my way back from closing up the Library this evening and the continual parking along there is ridiculous! Cars parking on the new main footpath. They may be popping in to the takeaways to pick up their orders or people visiting residents of Kingswear House! I had to walk around the cars and step into the road.
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Are the police able to ticket these cars for pavement parking? Might be worth posting on the crime section gor Sergeant Biddles team.
I have asked for a parking attendant to visit and issue parking tickets for pavement parking. I assume this happened at night time.
Is there no ‘street’ furniture that could dissuade pavement parking without being too obtrusive or difficult for pedestrians to negotiate?
Perhaps a WiFi bench, or flower planters?
Thanks Councillor Hilton. Yes in my experience it has been a regular occurrence from about 7pm onwards during the roadworks. 3 or 4 cars regularly parking on the pavement (ie all 4 wheels on pavement completely blocking it) just near Derby Hill junction.
Forest Hill does seem to be the Wild West when it comes to parking. I walked down Thorpewood yesterday to Dartmouth and noticed cars parked over junctions while there were spaces at the top and on Radlet. This is very dangerous as kids walking down from the school are forced into the road. I know there was pressure on parking yesterday because one of the local roads is being resurfaced but we should not be rewarding bad behaviour because of lack of enforcement. The road works showed how full those streets are. It will be interesting to see what happens if the rumours are true that residents on one of the streets is reconsidering the council’s offer of a single yellow line aiming to implement it over the summer which would remove all the all day parking outside their houses.
It affects all of London. Definitely not isolated to Forest Hill. Good way for the Council to raise more money. Simply enforcing the basic regulations in the Borough.
I thought Dartmouth Road was supposed to be closed to through traffic from today for six weeks?
Probably at least 6 weeks before Dartmouth is closed, don’t remember the exact date but it is probably on this thread somewhere
I’d say Lewisham recognised this when they offered Thorpewood a single yellow line, maximum disruption to all day parking at the minimum cost.
I slipped a couple of times today on a wet new pavement. I thought is it was my fault with choice of footwear, but a conversation with a local shopkeeper suggested this was a real problem with other slips and falls having been observed.
Also, wasn’t there a plan for activity when Dartmouth Road is fully closed? The thread I have found on the subject is closed due to inactivity…
CLOSED 26TH DEC, '17
This topic was automatically closed 60 days after the last reply. New replies are no longer allowed.
I remember there were similar problems with slippy surfaces when Sydenham Road was repaved with the same stone a few years ago. It’s fine down there now, so hopefully with a bit of weathering the new pavements on Dartmouth Road will be the same.
Hmm. Maybe. Don’t particularly like the concept of a new pavement being slippery upon installation though!
There is a further problem which seems to be one of basic engineering. The fall on the pavement seems to be insufficient to get water into the drains, so much so that water pools and remains standing - I observed this when it was raining yesterday on the pavement around the ‘Aldlife flytip’ corner, so not sure if it’s an isolated issue just in this location. It does seem strange that they’d go to such lengths to install paving but not get something basic like this right.
4 posts were merged into an existing topic: Dartmouth Road Closure
(a poll confirmed members were happy with the split)
Not sure I like all the big planter things on the pavement. What a waste of space.
But many do like the big planters on the pavement and it was an incentive brought in a good few years ago.
Fair enough, was just sayin mate. Just seems like a lot of clutter. Sure it will look better when it’s all done.
Does anyone know whether the two dilapidated and graffiti covered phone boxes outside the Sylvan Post will be removed? Disappointed to find mature trees removed from that spot but those eye sores still in place!
When I walked past yesterday they were the only things still standing…
Just curious to know if the water or sewer main (or whatever it is that periodically springs a leak) is being renewed while Dartmouth Road is re-done. I’d assumed it probably would be, but the solid trenches of concrete I’ve seen going in across the road in the current works would seem to make doing this tricky.
Lots of questions about this project (see three examples below). Has Lewisham Council appointed someone as public liaison officer to answer these questions? Is there a project manager we can ask? It will be too late to ask when the project is finished.
One thing which might be good is if the pedestrian barriers were arranged to be some sort of deterrent to the mopeds which seem to be paying no regard to the road closure.
A couple of times now I’ve been walking through the site and had to step aside while some oik motored through.
I seem to remember reading on the Sydenham Town forum that removing old telephone boxes is quite problematic, because it is unclear who owns/ is currently responsible for them.
Remove it, and you’ll find out soon enough!
When I walked past last Saturday the non-BT one had been removed.
Just took a walk up Dartmouth Rd , not having been around for a while, What a mess ?
How you managed to have a street party up there well.
Can see its work in progress, but its like an assault course to get any where ? By the Bird in Hand theres barriers all over the place.
If they have still to resurface the road as well , might be lucky if its open for the summer.
Feel sorry for the businesses that are still trying to earn a living.
Luckily new machinery means road resurfacing can now be done in a matter of hours.
And apparently being done overnight too…
Yeah road surfacing is unbelievably quick these days. They did Honor Oak Road in less than two days, and that included scraping off the top 10-15cms first, redoing all the speed bumps, re-painting all the lines. So impressive.
Indeed so. Really looking forward to a week of that racket 
Yes I guess for local residents night work would be most annoying.
What I heard was second hand info so it may not come to pass…
I don’t see any reason that they would do the work overnight. They often do resurfacing on the South Circular overnight so that they don’t need to close the road. But when a road is closed, you can do it at any time of day (or night).
We had a letter through the door yesterday telling us we would be impacted from 8am today, although no evident mention of surfacing. Obviously nothing happened!
After a brief meeting with Maja Hilton on Monday, I wrote to Les Senior the LB Lewisham PM.
There are reportedly 152 cement patches present - none of which has been replaced.
Mr Senior replied promptly to me and cc’d his response to the Kier’s team.
He was firm in his assertion that the unfinished work would be remedied by Kier’s but did not specify a timetable.
i also raised that matter of there being a need for a pressure washer clean of the new surface finishes given that a majority of the marks were left during the contractor’s operations.
I didn’t think it would’ve have escaped your attention @anon51837532 - we’re lucky to have you.
Thank you.
And my hopping over the area to count the missing flag. My kids thought I was mad. 
At 152 squares, it must be one for the Guinness Book of Records as the largest hopscotch game in town.
I think we could do with a few more concrete balls on the pavement as well. I noticed today while sitting on the street chairs outside the Sylvan Post that people are still parking on the pavement and this can’t be doing it any good.
I’m glad others are making a fuss - I had written to Cllr Gibbons about the unfinished works a few weeks ago and he had written to the Lewisham head of environment. Where it goes from here I don’t know…
